Home » Door Kickers » UPDATE on Bible Scopes: US Will Remove as Well

UPDATE on Bible Scopes: US Will Remove as Well

A DT reader sent us a note on the tip line directing us to a CNN story that states the US Military will remove the biblical cititations from its current inventory of Trijicon ACOG sights and that the company says it will no longer put the verses on their US military sales scopes.

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of United States Central Command, said Wednesday — apparently before learning of the company’s announcement — that the references were a “big concern” to the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps, which have contracts for the scopes.

“I hope you can sense … this is of serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it can indeed create a perception that is absolutely contrary to what it is that we have sought to do,” he said.

He said U.S. troops are much more sensitive “about this kind of thing,” apparently, than is the contractor involved.

I have reached out to Trijicon for the official statement, but until then, take a look at the CNN story.

– Christian

{ 97 comments… read them below or add one }

doc75 January 21, 2010 at 11:39 pm

It's amazing to see how quickly the DoD moved on removing these inscriptions yet how it never moved to deal with Major Hasan. I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm guessing there's a double standard here.

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J/E January 22, 2010 at 8:59 pm

no, there's no double standard ..

..dealing with these idiotic numbers seems kinda necessary to attain our strategic goals in the middle east, dealing w/ Hasan is not. The middle eastern conflict is largely a propaganda war, the people who put these numbers on the sights are helping out our enemies - all over the world.

..I agree that the latter event, what Hasan did, is far worse - and the guy should be shot (although that's really too nice for him) but in the grand scheme of things, you can maybe see why people like Petraeus are more concerned about not playing into the hands of our enemies.

Also, one the nice things about the US (as opposed to, say, Iraq) is that we have the rule of law. Law is slow, bureaucratic, and often sucks (eg OJ Simpson), but its better than anarchy. The Hasan case will take time, that shouldn't surprise anyone.

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Cannon Fodder January 22, 2010 at 12:01 am

Yeah, dems faced a huge loss in Mass. and needed to change the subject quick.

Does this mean that US Military Chaplains can't hand out camouflage Bibles to combat troops? I mean, heaven forbid if one is found by a Jihadist terrorist, it would make him think that he fell through a time warp and was facing crusaders from the 11th century. We wouldn't want to have to pay for any psychological trauma that it would cause.

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Alex January 22, 2010 at 1:10 am

"Yeah, dems faced a huge loss in Mass. and needed to change the subject quick "

Somehow I doubt that, because the awareness about this story is pretty low . You have to remember people vast majority of people outside of this site don't eat, drink, sleep, military 24/7 …

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 6:45 pm

Nah they'll just remove religious personnel from the military now, it's opened up a no tolerance policy..

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chris January 23, 2010 at 6:52 pm

I think you're making a gross exaggeration.

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 7:23 pm

nope that's how it starts, little by little take away this, take away that..

Dan January 24, 2010 at 2:06 am

Your right Mastiff, strip things little by little, change what schools are teaching and before long, everyone will forget the truth and buy the lie. Most schools brain wash their kids into thinking that they evolved from pond scum and their great grandparents were apes… Sad, but teach it long enough, change curriculum, and ridicule those who believe different and before long, boom, change has occured.

I can't get over what the founders of Harvard University said, "All knowledge without Christ was vain." Schools sing a different tune now…

Hyde January 22, 2010 at 1:22 am

Made front page of aljazeera

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doc75 January 22, 2010 at 1:30 am

Let me guess. They were deeply offended by it. Were they deeply offended by Major Hasan?

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TMB January 22, 2010 at 1:59 am

Like it or not, the people we deal with in Afghanistan are heavily influenced by perception. If they get the impression we're bombing hundreds of civilians a day and shooting people with bibles messages, than that's the reality we have to deal with whether its true or not.

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doc75 January 22, 2010 at 12:22 pm

The problem is we continue to choose to lose to a strategic information campaign by the enemy. As you noted, there is a perception that we're bombing hundreds of civilians a day. So in response we choose to remove the asymmetrical advantage of airpower in Afghanistan and that has left our troops more vulnerable and allowed the Taliban to maneuver freedom. Doesn't make sense at all.

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tw@ January 22, 2010 at 2:02 am

He was on page one because they love him for what he did. SO yes he was a page one story…but in a good light. SoA right?

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 2:12 am

This behavior shows one thing: we've already lost the war. We're now living under sharia where it's unacceptable to even have the appearance of "offending Islam". God help us, literally, because we're our own worst enemy. Perhaps the dhimmis in the DoD should put out a statement like: "We, for one, welcome our new Muslim overlords."

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Scathsealgaire January 22, 2010 at 2:31 am

Seperation of church and state and the customer is always right. Two things that you obviously do not approve of are Secular Democracies and Capitalism.

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 3:51 am

You're clueless. First, separation of church and state is an idea, not the law, from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and it's purpose was to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of government.

Second, the customer is not always right. Decisions should be made in favor of the customer, but unreasonable requests should be discounted.

It's obvious you're a product of our illustrious public schools.

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Scathsealgaire January 22, 2010 at 4:20 am

Not a public school, unless you are referring to the British Public/Private aberration.
Your first mistake is to discount the separation of church and state as only being in one direction. As long as Religion cannot control the State, Minority Religions will have protection under a Secular Democracy. What you seem to want is a Religious Democracy(or maybe even worse a Religious Dictatorship like Iran) where your personal religion is in control. If you don't get it you will be whining about your freedom of religion then moron.
And you fail in your understanding of capitalism. It is the MARKET that decides on prices and products. If the Market(consumer to you) is not happy they request product change, the the producer fails to follow then they loose market share. This is where the phrase the customer is always right actually came from.
You are obviously one of those Christian Supremacists. I will stop talking now. As your mind is as open to change as a Islamic Fundamentalist.

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chris January 22, 2010 at 11:31 am

I'm willing to bet that the number of military personnel saved by body armor is much higher than the number (demonstrably) saved by supplications to some Bronze Age fiction.

You know the Defense Department has repeatedly voiced concern over the fact that they're coming up short for qualified scientific professionals and with dogmatic twats like you running about it's a small wonder.

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 4:23 am

Oh, and BTW, we don't live in a Democracy. We live in a constitutional republic because Fisher Ames defeated Jefferson's call for a pure democracy understanding that, as the Bible says, "the heart of man is inherently wicked." So Fisher Ames knew that man's laws needed to be constrained by God's immutable laws. But I'm sure this is all probably old news to a scholar such as yourself.

Also, between 1760 and 1805, a full 34% of our founding father's quotes were straight from the good old Bible, their most freqently quoted source. (See "The Origins of American Constitutionalism" by political scientist Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman, 1988)

Finally, everyone knows the 1st Amendment of the Constitution sets up a wall of separation between church and state…

…not.

A "wall of separation between church and state" is only explicitly mentioned in one Constitution: the Constitution of the USSR. The phrase actually originates from a letter between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists where the Baptists implore Jefferson to keep the government from interfering with religious activities and Jefferson agrees, stating "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." `1

Notice two things about Jefferson's statement: first the "wall of separation" keeps government out of religion, not religion out of government. Second, Jefferson states that "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions", thus declaring all "hate crimes" currently being contemplated by our current taskmasters in Washington contrary to the Constitution and the explicit beliefs of the founding fathers.

How liberals minds would be blown to learn that the founding father who provided both the words and the wording for the 1st Amendment, a man by the name of Fisher Ames, also wrote:

"Why then, if these books for children must be retained, as they will be, should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book, that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind. One consideration more is important. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith." `2

-Fisher Aims, principal author of, and provider of the final wording for, the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, member of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Congress of the United States, and the founding father who helped convince the state of Massachusetts to ratify the Constitution while attending the Massachusetts constitutional convention. He was a lifelong proponent of private property rights and laissez-faire free markets. (H.R. 5078 - First Amendment Restoration Act, Section 2.14) `3

`1 - http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

`2 - Originally published in "The Mercury and New England Palladium" January 27, 1801 Vol VXII No.2. Referenced from the Works of Fisher Ames pps 134-135:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UsdEAAAAIAAJ&amp…

`3 - http://www.house.gov/paul/legis/106/hr5078.htm

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 5:41 am

Who cares about Fisher Aims and who cares about your bible? It all boils down to thundering threats of hell and nonstop yammering about liberals, the defunct soviet union, and any other irrational cudgel bouncing around your demon-haunted, superstitious skull cavern. When will you krypto theocrats just come out of the closet and admit you want to line up all the dirty liberals and do away with the Enlightenment underpinnings of our secular nation?

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 5:42 am

You're off your meds again.

nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:04 pm

What would you have said if these things had bits from the Koran on them? If it's anything other than the same feeling you have here for these inscriptions than you need to start looking at yourself. Don't get me wrong here, I am not a fan of Ismal but the feeling that it's ok for one religion to repress and dinigrate another is against everything America was founded on. (Read the Jamestown Charter).

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 2:13 am

America commits suicide with self-inflicted PC paralysis. News at 11.

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TMB January 22, 2010 at 2:57 am

And after our commercial break, the US military loses the hearts and minds of the Afghan people due to western arrogance.

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 3:53 am

Western arrogance? I hate to tell you but it was Middle-Eastern arrogance that brought down two buildings in NYC. We shouldn't be winning their hearts and minds but reminding them that if they keep it up we'll be removing their hearts and minds.

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TMB January 22, 2010 at 5:05 am

You got a few hundred million bullets? My ammo pouches aren't that big. Let's see here: 19 hijackers out of an organization of a couple thousand allied with another group of 20,000 living in amongst a population of 28 million - 50 million if you include the Paki side of the border. I suppose an unimaginative fella like yourself just expects me to shoot all of them. You want me to kill the enemy and win the war? Fine, but it'd be nice if we didn't go out of our way to create new enemies while we are at it. You said "might offend some scumbags in Afghanistan." That's the arrogance I'm talking about. I don't give a shit about offending people I plan on killing. Its the rest of the population that isn't shooting at us I'd like to avoid pissing off. The common citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan are not my enemy. If you think they should be, then shut the fuck up and you get over here and kill them.

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 6:10 am

Yes, because having a cryptic Bible reference on our rifle sights will make all those "peace-loving Muslims who don't already hate us" suddenly turn into blood-thirsty enemies seeking our destruction. Obviously, our anointed leaders in the military should waste their time and our money self-flagellating themselves and the US instead of concentrating on killing the enemy and winning the war. You said, "I don't give a **** about offending people I plan on killing." Well, my friend, as you're holding your fire until being fired upon and reading your terrorist captives their Miranda rights, understand this: your leaders in Washington, unlike you, do care about offending the enemy.

This entire self-loathing, PC charade would be funny if it weren't so perilous. Radical Muslims understand one thing and that thing is fear. Shows of weakness, like this one, are what inspire and embolden them. Osama bin Laden said this explicitly in his 1998 interview on PBS' Frontline:

"Frontline Question: Describe the situation when your men took down the American forces in Somalia.

Bin Laden's Answer: After our victory in Afghanistan and the defeat of the oppressors who had killed millions of Muslims, the legend about the invincibility of the superpowers vanished. Our boys no longer viewed America as a superpower. So, when they left Afghanistan, they went to Somalia and prepared themselves carefully for a long war. They had thought that the Americans were like the Russians, so they trained and prepared. They were stunned when they discovered how low was the morale of the American soldier. America had entered with 30,000 soldiers in addition to thousands of soldiers from different countries in the world. … As I said, our boys were shocked by the low morale of the American soldier and they realized that the American soldier was just a paper tiger. He was unable to endure the strikes that were dealt to his army, so he fled, and America had to stop all its bragging and all that noise it was making in the press…"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/bin…

Cannon Fodder January 23, 2010 at 3:54 am

Well, we have two choices. One, pull Israel out of the way temporarily and Nuke that whole area, then after it's cleaned up, give it to Israel.

Two, stop funding terrorism by buying Arab oil. Then the funds they use for terrorism dry up and problem goes away.

Either would work…

Pete January 29, 2010 at 10:44 am

Well said!

turdrous January 22, 2010 at 5:11 am

Sure, tough guy. Let's pretend the U.S. has no history of meddling in the affairs of every strategically important middle eastern nation and simply ascribe the backlash to someone else's arrogance. How many more innocent Muslims do you think we need to kill before the enemy decides to quit? Do you seriously believe we can kill our way out of this mess, or will you at least admit there is a political dimension to the conflict (as much as it hampers your binary world view)?

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 5:43 am

It's all our fault!

Cannon Fodder January 22, 2010 at 2:15 am

In a stroke of genius, the Obama administration uncovered yet another controversial CIA program.

First it was waterboarding, now its subliminal bible messages. The CIA's men who stare at goats division, working closely with evangelists Pat Robertson and Jimmy Baker, implanted hidden bible codes on select M-4 rifles. When a round is fired, coded messages are transfered to the target subliminaly in hopes of converting the fanatical muslims to Christianity.

The technique was spawned from the CIA subliminal toilet seat project that alerted spouses when their husbands left the toilet seat up. The coded messages went undiscovered until mass revivals in the Iraqi army during friendly fire incidents prompted investigations…

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 5:15 am

That's almost as funny as fighting a fourth generation war with second generation tactics!

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 3:58 am

This entire BS story is summed up thusly: "Tempest in a teapot." Hey DoD. instead of worrying about how some cryptic cypher on some inconspicuous piece of kit (our kit, BTW) might offend some scumbags in Afghanistan and Iraq, how about concentrating on winning the war, killing the enemy, and bringing our troops home? We're doomed.

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Wazdakka January 22, 2010 at 7:38 pm

bd,
You seem to be overlooking the possibility that the christian scripture reference on this rather important, if not nessesarily imposing piece of kit may actually offend some of the US soldiers (our soldiers, BTW) who are doing the winning, killing and returning that you are talking about, as not all of them are, in fact, christians. I, for one, do not think that this is a very good idea. Following on from this, i think that this reference may well be seen as highly inappropriate to any number of religions, and not just 'scumbags in Afganistan'.

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Smith January 22, 2010 at 5:59 am

I'm not religious in the least bit… but what do I care that my ACOG has a few numbers and letters on it that may reference a bible verse? I don't care. Not one bit. It works just fine, thank you. It would be one thing if SOLDIERS are offended by it, but how ridiculous that we're worried about offending our enemies. Oh wait, I forgot… Hearts and Minds.

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nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:09 pm

Many soliders are offended by it. My wife, My son, large numbers of both of their units are unhappy with this crap. If you can't understand the idea that this fight is more about hearts and minds than killing people than you fail the basic understanding of the war we are fighting (and I am not just talking about Iraq or the 'Stan). Until you understand what we are trying to do you insights are as useful as a 6 month old giving me advice on Server installs. This is not to be insulting here, I am just saying you need to understand what we are trying to do before you can be helpful in getting it done.

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 6:10 am

Are you saying all Muslims are our enemies? If not, I think you're missing the point…keep searching, though, it's bound to be here somewhere.

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Alex January 22, 2010 at 1:11 am

what I meant to say

Somehow I doubt that, because the awareness about this story is pretty low . You have to remember the vast majority of people outside of this site don't eat, drink, sleep, military 24/7 …

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Wembley January 22, 2010 at 10:44 am

Advantage of removing text from gunsights: it removes the risk that some Muslims or others will believe propaganda about 'crusading westerners'.

Disadvatange of removing text: Nothing

Is this really such a difficult devision to follow?

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TrueNeoCon January 22, 2010 at 11:33 am

Wembley
Disadvantage of removing text, lots of time and effort devoted to something trivial. Troups recieve proof that PC has higher priortiy than just about anything else. Sure, the coding shoudn't be there and probably should be removed, especialy if there are complaints, but this should be done by providing repair kits to armorers who woud make the change to sights udergoing maintanence or on request. Don't make a big deal of it.

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eric January 22, 2010 at 12:35 pm

thank god (no fear, this word will selfdestruct after 14 foxnews type of comments), for smart generals who understand what kind of war this is.

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Armchair Warlord January 22, 2010 at 12:48 pm

I hope Trijicon gets a bill for the time, effort and cost of removing their evangelizing from US military equipment. Their stupidity and insensitivity has created a PR point for the bad guys.

Need I remind you that perceptons are vitally important in this war?

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theboogyman January 22, 2010 at 4:42 pm

this is 100% right to me.

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akp January 22, 2010 at 3:35 pm

believe it or not the wining todays wars are not all about killing the enemy. perceptions and propaganda are important too. but i wouldnt expect most of the arm chair generals here to know anything about psyops.

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Blake January 22, 2010 at 4:45 pm

The chick-a-fication of the military. As an armchair general, the psyops weakness is ourselves, waiting to be exploited.

Time to learn Chinese.

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Dan January 24, 2010 at 6:08 pm

Because the economical implications of the Republican administration building up a multi-trillion-dollar deficit to fund the was has *nothing* to do with needing to learn Chinese.

Also, I am sure every last one of the female Soldiers currently in Iraq and Afghanistan will support your choice of pejorative.

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Blake January 26, 2010 at 10:26 pm

How 'bout effete elitism instead of chick-a-fication but YOU still might not get it? I looked through my MS in Econ books and I couldn't find your info, but wait here it is, Revised History for the Progressive Thinker. Got Yah.
Buddy you lost me. People following the eventual conflict between two superpowers because one exhibits major weakness probably understood me. You Dont. Otherwise wtf does this have to do with Republican anything!
Since you brought it up I would much prefer giving half my paycheck to an industry that has produced more for this society than any liberal program ever. So stay away from that topic unless you are going to spout the 10s of trillions of wasted treasure on programs dedicated to the non-contributing elements of our society who's kids are no safer, are less educated or whose neighborhoods are not safer with less poverty; unlike the contributions of the "war machine" as you put it.

I would go further and say that it is the chick-a-fication of the military and its use that has caused the expense both in treasure and political capital.

When solders are left to their trade without micro-mgt the expense would be minimal. Instead we spend 100Ks per kill so there is minimal political damage instead of telling the locals …rat them out and get out. Use tools appropriately, solders break things and kill people, private industry fixes it, politicians to talk and govt produces NOTHING. ACORN is hiring. …I demand the last two minutes of my life back.

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doc75 January 22, 2010 at 12:20 pm

"Advantage of removing text from gunsights: it removes the risk that some Muslims or others will believe propaganda about 'crusading westerners'."

They believed it prior to this and still will believe once we remove the writing. Many will believe it until you give up your rights and submit to their faith.

Also, the US has a bad habit of assuming certain viewpoints by Muslims and others and going overboard to appease it. The removal of the asymmetrical advantage of airpower in Afghanistan has left our troops more vulnerable and allowed the Taliban to maneuver freedom.

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chris January 22, 2010 at 12:25 pm

You know what's as dumb as pandering to Islam

Pandering to Christfaggοtry

I'll bet the rifle scopes function the same without identifiers of Bible verses on them

And if they function well it's because of our understanding of optics

Which is because of science

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nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:22 pm

You are 100% correct. I don't know why Chistians are so sure of themselves and there rightness. They are so quick to judge, they are slow to understand their faults, and so heartless to their fellow followers of God.

Christians accuse others of opressing them while still managing to keep themselves, the majority, as an almost infallible litmus test for higher public office and the only religion to get Public Holidays. They then turn around and sue to keep Athiest out of office, push to keep Minority religions opressed, and press for regulation that keeps minority religions from entering the country for fear of being a minority themselves.

If only they would stop and read the book they hold up so high and follow the leasons of the great mind Jesus and his teaching of peace and understanding.

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Blake January 22, 2010 at 4:40 pm

If the marines were screaming allah aukbar that would win their hearts and minds??? We pay the bills and in a world governed by extreme violence PR and psyops matter most???. Darwin, please help!

It's these weak ROE, PC, panty policies that make you look stupid and weak in these societies - where do you go from there? Try strength and fairness!
I could not come up with an expletive laden sentence to describe this ridiculousness. Ah, never mind.

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bdwilcox January 22, 2010 at 6:38 pm

Don't worry, Blake. Some of us get it and are as appalled as you are. Just remember, the majority of internet users are young, clueless libs only recently spawned from their indoctrination centers called high schools, colleges, and universities, so the stupidity you see demonstrated here isn't a true reflection of society. The worrying part is the reflection of their attitudes in the highest echelons of government. For that, I have no words to describe it, either.

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Jake Sprat January 23, 2010 at 4:34 am

Please, grandpa, please tell us more stories of the olden times when you and the other proto-humans fought in the great pterodactyl war against liberalism. Scapegoating was just so much easier then, and I hear the anguish you currently suffer…

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nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:25 pm

Would you be OK if they had quotes from the Koran on them?

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blake January 26, 2010 at 10:54 pm

As long as they are unique which again is a scheme used for numbering. You see, people who are not afraid are not swayed by scary numbers or verse references i.e. Bar Codes on your Red Bull. When you become an emotional product of society words and feeling become scary i.e.: hysteria and delusion.

The Scapegoat comment is so cute and when the WWII vets are gone you can get away with it. Zero

Wars abroad cannot be won until the one at home is settled.

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.” — Mahatma Gandhi

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Cannon Fodder January 23, 2010 at 4:01 am

Hey, anyone remember having pride in the USA? You know, back when the things we bought were manufactured in America and said "Made in the USA".
When you needed tech support for something the person on the phone spoke english. Back when we didn't care what other nations did, we supported the rights of our people. Back when we didn't follow other nations, but led. Back when no one would question "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. And prayer was supported in our schools?

Do you remember? Yeah, me neither, it was before my time…

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 6:38 pm

Wow next when our men and women (kids) enlist they will remove the swear-in ceremonies because of " under god" it's been in our culture for how long! Our own people are stripping us of our culture.. These atheist few in numbers are winning? This Bull $4ittt. This nation was not founded on atheism.. $uck those atheist mut4er $uckers!!! Bring back our heritage bring back our GOD GIVEN CRISTIAN CULTURE!! I'm by no means free of sin but what happen to my freedom to pick and choose? I even bet a Muslim fanatic would have not even picked up that rifle, (once fallen) and use it because of the Cristian verses.. Now that would of been a deterrent if they new..

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chris January 23, 2010 at 6:49 pm

As I've said before, the Department of Defense has repeatedly voiced concerns over shortages of qualified scientific professionals in the United States.

Boneheaded comments like yours make at least one of the causes of this issue clear.

The philosophy of justifying everything with "well, ah'm a Kris'chin" gets in the way of thinking clearly.

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 7:19 pm

yep that's why your view is your opinion..And our culture is disapearing. I was raised on the USA soil.

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chris January 23, 2010 at 7:54 pm

Err, see, it's not just my "opinion"

http://integrator.hanscom.af.mil/2009/June/061820…

"The Pentagon fears a severe shortage of scientists and engineers at government laboratories could erode the military's technological edge in developing weapons and other projects in coming years, spawning a hiring boom at military research laboratories and an expansion of scholarships, advertising campaigns, and other ways to recruit a new generation of researchers.

An internal study concluded that the Air Force, the military's most technology-reliant branch, could be especially hit hard by the widening gap between the number of qualified college graduates in science, engineering, and math and the growing national demand for such skills, according to defense officials."

This is straight from the horse's mouth.

Religion, including Christfаggotry, has pretty consistently been a barrier to straight thinking. The brand of fundamentalist Christianity you espouse generates intellectual cripples who are uninterested in how the Universe works and instead obsessed with a useless fairy story. As such it very probably contributes to the critical shortage of scientific personnel this article complains of.

Now the US military is even tapping into neuroscience with the aims of improving the performance of both soldiers and neurally-inspired computers that can aid them. And we don't need fuсking loud-mouthed know-nothing Christfаggots coming in blathering about how that's impossible "a-cuz GAW-ud is thuh saycrut of thuh MYE-und and thuh SOW-ul."

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Cannon Fodder January 24, 2010 at 4:02 am

You need your pet meds Chris….. Anyways the Christians who founded this country made sure that insecure idiots like you with a low intelligence level could run your mouth. Freedom of speech yaH KnOw…..

Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 8:05 pm

"a-cuz GAW-ud is thuh saycrut of thuh MYE-und and thuh SOW-ul." lol you cant even spell.. such that your even scared to say it right..

"Christianity you espouse generates intellectual cripples who are uninterested in how the Universe works and instead obsessed with a useless fairy story. "
you watch and believe to much media hype, plenty of sane Christians in the science..

But thats Why I live in the good USA! were I can write read and believe what the 4uck I want. I can choose to read and believe or I can choose to discount it.. Just like the way you choose to write out religious references."a-cuz GAW-ud is thuh saycrut of thuh MYE-und and thuh SOW-ul." and seem to think that your realy not saying it. LOL

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turdrous January 23, 2010 at 8:23 pm

Who's contesting your freedom to believe or say anything religious? How many times can you overlook the point that these archaic, idiotic belief systems are having a demonstrably negative effect on such areas as scientific literacy, entry into crucial hard science careers, and the like?

Instead of repeating a point no one is contesting, try actually formulating a response the issue at hand: Religion has no positive benefit on scientific literacy, and therefore detracts from our national safety and long term dominance in critical fields of study. Or is that just too much to ask of the "believers"?

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chris January 23, 2010 at 8:31 pm

We jus have to PRAY and JAY-zus will shower innovations upon us! CHRAHST JAYZUS WE LIFT UP YOUR NAME

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 9:42 pm

lol your a fanatical person.. those inscriptions didn't even hurt a fly they were there. Hows about you go and deface the Egyptian inscriptions..There bothering me..I want them no longer broad casted on commercially owned private business Televisions.

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chris January 23, 2010 at 9:53 pm

You're right.

The Bible verse doesn't impact the effectiveness of the rife scope.

Whether it works or not depends entirely on our understanding of optics.

The Pentagon was being utilitarian, a good military virtue as any, and they decided to scrap a useless frill that did them no good and probably did them some kind of harm in terms of PR, as well as potentially being unconstitutional in the spirit if not in the letter of the law.

chris January 23, 2010 at 8:23 pm

I'm making fun of the way you probably talk.

American Bible humpers all tend to sound like either Peter Popoff or Jerry Falwell no matter where they come from; it's uncanny.

The majority of scientists are atheists or agnostics, with good cause. Those who are of any religious persuasion are, with few exceptions, not whackjob nutters like yourself. As of 1998, ~93% of members of the National Academy of Sciences were non-believers. See here:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002….

And no one is telling you you can't believe a fairy tale. You have that right. It's just not the state's job to endorse any particular religious belief system. That's why Bible verses will no longer make an appearance on these rifle scopes.

Also I'd like you to guess which mainstream media outlets you think I pay attention to. Go on and guess, let's see how many you can get wrong.

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Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 9:39 pm

wack jobs started this country.lol

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chris January 23, 2010 at 9:44 pm

…and they also lived in a time when they thought that draining blood would cure diseases. If I'm not mistaken, George Washington himself died of such a "treatment."

This is the 21st century. I urge you to start living in it.

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Cannon Fodder January 24, 2010 at 4:29 am

3500 years ago the Bible said the Earth was round, in 1492 the scientists knew the Earth was flat. Scientists say that dinos died millions of years before humans, yet the fossil record shows dinos and man lived at the same time.

The Bible says that man was fearfully and wonderfully made, and that man has a purpose on the earth, scientists say the Earth started as a volcanic blob 3.8 billion years ago and was seeded with alien cosmic lfe, which eventually formed everything we see today.

Recently scientists said that the Earth was in danger because of global warming. When that was debunked they claimed it is now in danger of global cooling…

Believe what you want, but I'll stick with my beliefs thank you. Science has it's place and there are some good scientist out there, but many scientists are too prone to making things up just to keep the grant money coming in….

nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:44 pm

I wouldn't disagree with you completely. You would have to be a little crazy to think as far outside the box as these guys did. Put keep in mind that this had been a slow building for quite sometime. While it is common for Christians to think this country is founded on Christianity, the Virginia Company was out for money, and of the writers and framers of the constitution fully half of them had no religion at all and even those 'devoted' like Adam and Washington showed great consternation as the idea of religion running a goverment.

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Cannon Fodder January 31, 2010 at 4:33 am

I really don't know why people are trying to rewrite American history. Sorry, this nation was founded as a Christian nation, look up early american quotes. Ask a taliban, they will tell you….

Mastiff January 23, 2010 at 11:08 pm

well when words and numbers start killing people I 'll worry then. Right now I'm in California and I'm more worried about my gun rights then some stupid verse used as a serial number..

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chris January 23, 2010 at 11:44 pm

I believe you ought to be able to own firearms and sympathize with your plight.

Recognize, however, that is entirely irrelevant to this topic.

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Vstress January 25, 2010 at 12:27 pm

Surely this should all be downplayed… get each soldier to get out a piece of sandpaper (or a rough stone) and get him/her to reduce the letters to nothing.

End of story.

I’m always surprised that our own media always decides to ride this bandwagon to ruin the countries image. All this would have taken is an internal rectification within the military.

Yet again, somebody is gaining personal attention and money from this.

Pointless debate and sadly the more people argue about it, like we do on this site (including myself), the more bad press it gets.

Bottom line is that if you don’t believe in the bible, why should it matter? If somebody decides to do this with a car I’d like to buy and put a “Jesus” sticker on it, I don’t decide to not buy it for that reason!! I’m sure if people have had a scope like this and found it offensive, why not just erase it yourselves?

For that reason, yes, go ahead and put other religion verses on equipment if people want, just make sure, that like this product, it can be removed by the individual.

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 5:52 am

That's funny, I couldn't find any content in your reply.

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 5:55 am

"It's all the liberals' fault!"

Fixed that for you!

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turdrous January 22, 2010 at 6:28 am

I don't get it….how can I take you seriously if you aren't quoting an undead Jew or some contemporary of Bishop Fenwick on the matter? And how long has your penchant for channeling Archie Bunker been ongoing?

I hear our military is working on a JDAM which will track liberals and Muslims and destroy either at the first whiff of dissent from our national apostolic creed! Soon we will be one in Christ's hail of bombs!

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Scar Shooter January 23, 2010 at 4:56 am

I agree…is there any problem indiscriminate murder on a grand scale can't solve?

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chris January 24, 2010 at 2:31 am

When "thuh libruls" institute martial law like you lunatics were claiming they would just after Obama got elected, come and talk. Otherwise shut the hell up you fuсking histrionic crybaby.

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chris January 24, 2010 at 2:35 am

I'm interested in your "creation science" based alternatives to evolutionary epidemiology and genetic algorithms btw

Replacing science with HALLELUJAH PRAYZE JAYZUS doesn't really empower a military

Or anything else for that matter

You're really no better than the Islamofascists

You disgust me

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chris January 24, 2010 at 2:29 am

Yeah really. Why should science be taught in schools? I mean evolution has applications in medicine, psychology and even computer science, and the military can put them to work. But fuсk that. Why should we want to be advanced? Why should we want to be more civilized than our enemies? Why should we want to afford ourselves advantages? Let's just stop looking for facts about the world and pray to Gaw-ud to make ceramic body armor and robot tanks.

After all, all of Christendom prayed for the Black Plague to end and eventually it did. Granted modern medicine would have been more effective but the power of prayer is clear as ever: God heard the devout supplications of medieval Europe and only let one-third of its people die of the pest.

CHRIST JESUS WE LIFT UP YOUR NAME

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Dan January 24, 2010 at 3:55 am

So Chris, say I have parts to a black and white camera and leave them in a lab. If I leave them alone for a thousand years, will they somehow come together, in just the right order and assemble themselves? Say after a million years will the camera evolve from black and white to a color camera?

If this could not happen for something as simple as a camera, how did the brain evolve? Sight? Hearing? Where do you think wisdom comes from to learn? To create a new weapon system or to even understand science?

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chris January 24, 2010 at 4:33 am

Nah, but then again camera parts don't have the self-organizational properties of organic compounds. So while amino acids, which are the building blocks of the currency of cellular machinery, proteins, have been found floating in space, camera parts have not.

Your analogy is weak.

Nervous systems evolved in finely graded stages. Even among extant species there is a huge amount of diversity with hydras and jellyfish having small distributed nerve nets and worms like C. elegans with only a few hundred neurons and so on up to animals with billions of them.

The human brain itself is homologous with both reptilian and other mammalian brains at deeper levels. So while

Honestly I'd be surprised if you could name one major neural substrate without looking up what that term means so why should I even entertain this unlettered verbal diarrhea of yours?

If you don't know anything about the anatomy of the brain how can you say it couldn't have evolved?

ps if you think your criticisms of widely accepted scientific findings are so brilliant get them published in an actual journal

pps they're not that brilliant and you're really just showing yourself to be a dumb sack of ѕhit parroting Kent Hovind

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oden January 24, 2010 at 4:57 am

"3500 years ago the Bible said the Earth was round, in 1492 the scientists knew the Earth was flat."

Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is round

Also Eratosthenes demonstrated not only that the Earth is round 200 years before the time of Christ, but also calculated its diameter to only a few percent error

Why is this figure not in the Bible?

"Scientists say that dinos died millions of years before humans, yet the fossil record shows dinos and man lived at the same time."

How so?

"The Bible says that man was fearfully and wonderfully made, and that man has a purpose on the earth"

Irrelevant fluff. Your feelings about a proposition don't make it true or false

"Recently scientists said that the Earth was in danger because of global warming. When that was debunked they claimed it is now in danger of global cooling…"

Who said that?

"Believe what you want, but I'll stick with my beliefs thank you. Science has it's place"

Yes it has its place. When it suits Cannon Fodder. When scientific findings like evolution meet the same evidentiary criteria as microwave ovens or cars or the Internet or sporting rifles or whatever, they receive the seal of approval of His Majesty the King Cannon Fodder. Otherwise they are to be rejected outright. For the entire Universe, yes, the entire Universe revolves around the whims of Cannon Fodder. Reality bends itself to his every desire.

Just kidding.

Enjoy your spoiled polio-free life.

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chris January 24, 2010 at 12:48 am

"3500 years ago the Bible said the Earth was round, in 1492 the scientists knew the Earth was flat."

Where in the Bible does it say the Earth is round?

Also the Greek scientist Eratosthenes demonstrated 200 years before the time of Christ that the Earth is round AND determined its diameter to only a small percentage of error.

The Bible does not contain this figure.

"The Bible says that man was fearfully and wonderfully made, and that man has a purpose on the earth, scientists say the Earth started as a volcanic blob 3.8 billion years ago and was seeded with alien cosmic lfe, which eventually formed everything we see today."

The hypothesis that the Earth was seeded with alien life or precursors to life is not widely held and even if it were, what would it mean? You're suggesting that the world revolves around beliefs you personally want to hold.

protip: it doesn't

"Recently scientists said that the Earth was in danger because of global warming. When that was debunked they claimed it is now in danger of global cooling…"

Who said this? Where?

"Believe what you want, but I'll stick with my beliefs thank you. Science has it's place"

Yes it has its place. When it suits Cannon Fodder's whims. When Cannon Fodder disagrees with a scientific finding that meets the same evidential criteria as, say, the microwave oven or the automobile, or the Internet or sporting rifles or whatever, well it's just wrong. Because the entire Universe, yes, the entire Universe revolves around the personal tastes of Cannon Fodder, fitting itself to his every desire.

Just kidding.

Enjoy your polio free life you ungrateful human piece of ѕhit.

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nraddin January 25, 2010 at 3:52 pm

Cannon Fodder… If in 1492 you had walked into the Spanish court and told them. "I think the world is round" they would have looked at you the same way you would look at someone for annoucing that 'suger is sweet'. Even the uneducated either knew the world was round or didn't think about it enough to care at that point. Everyone knew that the tides where controlled by the Moon and the earth went around the sun and those familiar with shipping would have known about how big around the world was. I really don't know where you guys get this crap from but honestly 1492 is mid Renaissance era not the dark ages, and even in the Dark Ages people knew this stuff for ship navigation.

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Cannon Fodder January 24, 2010 at 5:59 pm

Dude, crawl back into your atheist cave…

The oldest book of the Bible (3500 years ago), Job, tells that the Earth is a globe. Human and dino footprints together (http://www.bible.ca/tracks/taylor-trail.htm).

Global warming was finally debunked when hackers released internal memos on it and global cooling is here (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/11/years-g…

Not all, but many scientists make up crap just for funding reasons…

So Oden, enjoy your short evolved life, but what happens when you die???.

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oden January 24, 2010 at 6:57 pm

"The oldest book of the Bible (3500 years ago), Job, tells that the Earth is a globe."

What verse?

Also I already told you Eratosthenes figured this out around 200 BCE, and the diameter of Earth. It's not rocket science.

"Human and dino footprints together"

Hahahah those are elongated dinosaur tracks

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/tsite.html

You remind me of kids in my neighborhood who would find plain rocks and call them "arrowheads"

"Global warming was finally debunked when hackers released internal memos on it and global cooling is here (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/11/years-g…

FOX News isn't a reputable source

Also NASA's GISS laboratory disagrees with you

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_0…

"Not all, but many scientists make up crap just for funding reasons…"

Which ones? Prove it.

"So Oden, enjoy your short evolved life, but what happens when you die???"

I don't know. And neither do you.

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tyr January 24, 2010 at 9:32 pm

"The oldest book of the Bible (3500 years ago), Job, tells that the Earth is a globe."

What verse?

Also I already told you Eratosthenes figured this out around 200 BCE, and the diameter of Earth. It's not rocket science.

"Human and dino footprints together"

Those are elongated dinosaur tracks

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/tsite.html

"Global warming was finally debunked when hackers released internal memos on it and global cooling is here (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/11/years-g…

FOX News isn't a reputable source

Also NASA's GISS laboratory disagrees with you

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_0…

"Not all, but many scientists make up crap just for funding reasons…"

Which ones? Prove it.

"So Oden, enjoy your short evolved life, but what happens when you die???"

I don't know. And neither do you.

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Cannon Fodder January 24, 2010 at 10:23 pm

I figured it was a waste of time to tell you the truth, but I love feeding trolls!

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Dan January 24, 2010 at 11:09 pm

Chris, I'm sorry, you are right, I should have said that the camera parts were outside available to the elements. as you know, a main part of Amino acids contain a carboxylic group which contains copper. Electronic parts are full of copper. So just add a clap of thunder and billions of years and whammo! Life….

Is it so much different than what you are proposing? You say amino acids are needed for life, well where did they come from? Thus the problem with evolution and why scientist are abandoning the "Theory" of evolution for intelligent design. Some one or something must have created the camera parts, or the first amino acid or space elements…

Chris, you are a man of great faith in your religion, and I in mine, both are out of scope of the contents of this military forum. I would gladly continue this somewhere else you you so decide….

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Der Gegner January 25, 2010 at 4:54 am

"a main part of Amino acids contain a carboxylic group which contains copper"

Wrong. Check your chemistry textbook: the carboxyl group contains only carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen.

You must be confusing the 'C' in 'COOH' with 'copper'. The symbol for copper is 'Cu', and copper is in fact only a trace element in earthly life.

In fact … here are all the amino acids. All of them:

Alanine - CH3-CH(NH2)-COOH
Arginine - N=C(NH2)-NH-(CH2)3-CH(NH2)-COOH
Asparagine - H2N-CO-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Aspartic Acid - HOOC-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Cysteine - HS-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Glutamic Acid - HOOC-(CH2)2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Glutamine - H2N-CO-(CH2)2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Glycine - NH2-CH2-COOH
Histidine - NH-CH=N-CH=C-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Isoleucine - CH3-CH2-CH(CH3)-CH(NH2)-COOH
Leucine - (CH3)2-CH-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Lysine - H2N-(CH2)4-CH(NH2)-COOH
Methionine - CH3-S-(CH2)2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Phenylalanine - Ph-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Proline - NH-(CH2)3-CH-COOH
Serine - HO-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Threonine - CH3-CH(OH)-CH(NH2)-COOH
Tryptophan - Ph-NH-CH=C-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Tyrosine - HO-Ph-CH2-CH(NH2)-COOH
Valine - (CH3)2-CH-CH(NH2)-COOH

Now tell me where you see copper on this list.

"Thus the problem with evolution and why scientist are abandoning the "Theory" of evolution for intelligent design."

The vast majority of life and behavioral scientists accept the neo-Darwinian approach to evolution according to any fair survey. Also, "intelligent design" is pseudoscientific because it fails to meet Popper's falsifiability criterion.

In short, you are deeply mistaken.

"You say amino acids are needed for life, well where did they come from?"

They form spontaneously. That's why there's clouds of amino acids in deep space, as I already pointed out.

"Chris, you are a man of great faith in your religion"

What religion?

"both are out of scope of the contents of this military forum"

Except when you talk about them. Because you're His Majesty the King Dan and His Majesty has the divine right to give unlettered diatribes about how this is a KRISCHIN nation (although not according to the Treaty of Tripoli).

You really crack me up.

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Der Gegner January 25, 2010 at 4:57 am

Yeah the "truth" is that you were running out talking points so you stooped to the lowest common denominator which is threatening people with hell.

btw I'm still waiting for your answer as to why the Bronze Age goat herders who wrote the Old Testament couldn't figure out the diameter of the Earth.

(Like Eratosthenes did.)

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Dan January 26, 2010 at 1:03 am

You are right herr sillyness, I meant Carbon, not copper. Carbon is in the plastic case, electronic components and glass. On the flip side Copper is essential for life, so it is a mute point anyway.

The point still stands, where did the initial components start from, thus this is why Evolution is a theory and not law.

Your god is your mind and your religion is science, I hope they serve you well. It You are content with criticizing things that you really don't understand, time will tell who is right, I am not wasting any more time with you.

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Cannon Zues January 26, 2010 at 2:48 am

Lol, you need you go back to your chemistry for dummies book. It doesn't matter what I say, I am not going to convince you to change your silly thinking and your not going to convince me that I evolved from an ape. You may have been, actually I'm pretty sure you have.

Oh, and I supose the fossilized wood boat that the Turkish scientists say is "Noah's Ark" (you may need to look that up) in the Ararat mountains is really Noah's ark cause scientists are always right… I'm reading atheists for dummies now cause I wants to be more smarter thans you…

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