uurf: I hate to point out the obvious, however,

"It's Not Our Fault":
No one could have predicted this! (Except, they did, and the organizations in question are tasked with planning for exactly these sorts of things.)
---I'm not sure who you're referring to when you quote, "Our Fault" Are you trying to peg me as a particular political party? You're way off base. It's the fault of many, but FEMA and the NO agencies stated they could never have predicted this much of a disaster.---

"Racism":
They're animals! (Put you and your loved ones and a firearm on the roof of an inundated house for 5 days and see what your reaction is when that helicopter passes you over AGAIN. Turns out your decision processes can be impaired by extreme dehydration...)
---Where do you get racism? Yes, they are acting like animals. ALL the people who are shooting at the GOOD people who are coming to help. So far the military, police, and civilian agencies have all been fired-upon. YOU are the first to mention race through this entire thread. If you turn on your benefactor when you're injured, you're acting like an animal! I never mentioned, nor do I care, if they are black, white, or any other race, creed, or color.---

"It's actually the Dems fault!"
In the absence of the ability to blame Clinton (although I'm sure it's coming), blame the Dem Governor, not Bush. (Except that the DHS has absorbed most of the funding and the authority that the states used to wield in these matters.)
---Not quite sure where this came from. I don't know the Governor, didn't know he/she was a Dem and never mentioned the state government. Although maybe I should have. Just in case you didn't understand, I said the governmental body of New Orleans. New Orleans does NOT have a governor. This is a city. Cities have mayors.---

Remember when Republicans were in favor of accountability? I guess it's less attractive when you have lapses to be accountable for...
---I am fully in favor of accountability. I think a full review should be conducted and if ANY governmental body failed to respond in a timely manner, GIVEN ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES, there should be hell to pay. I think FEMA should be looked at especially close, as well as the NO emergency response system.
---You are obviously a Dem and are hurt or embarrased by that fact, I am also, but I believe in placing blame where blame is due, not just placing blame for politics sake.

Posted by: DW` at September 6, 2005 12:17 AM

Watching the media reports of the washing away of the southern half of the region near Boloxi and the New Orleans area it surprises me to see the individuals LACK of planning at the home. During a cataclysmic event as an event 4 hurricane expect baseline services such as power which drives much of the our modern world to be put back to the early 1800 existance. That also includes eccess to modern medicines and services.To blame a government official for lack of having water and food for more than several days was short sighted. Further too if you had so planned but your house flooded away literally your planning was in error. The choice of the incoming vehicles (air support) first was to be givin to the need to baseline survival. As in not drowning.
There are no reports of other groups the Red Cross or other groups getting in early either. Mostly due to gun crime. When bullets fly in your direction it does get your attention. To mobilize multiple government services with fuel,vehicles capapble of travering high water,food with and security hasn't seen or talked with people who are in war zone or disaster. Roads cleared and bridges pushed to limits had to be inspected. The communities on the off ramps passed by the units likely were also helped. Before the event why hadn't the wise critasizing media implanted themselve into the supply rescue teams. They decided to be at the beach instead of in the trenches. It is easy to watch by camera a child crying. It is harder to see the person getting the bottle for the mother. Not noticing thier hard work and planning. He or she walks away unoticed. The hazards by all getting there where chosen by the parents and answered by the a group of individual working hard now to feed hundreds of thousand who made the same error.

Posted by: Buechel at September 4, 2005 10:37 PM

Good Afternoon Ray,

I don't care much for personal attack Ray and will go to much effort to avoid it, but in your case you have elimated any options of a rational discoure. The only reason I assume is that you have no other way to defend you position and to express your opinions.

You have love of ones country confused with following blindly a "Mad" man.

From 1774-1781 another group of people refused to fallow another "Mad" man named George. Today they are affectionly called "Patriots".

You may challenge my ignorance all you like as I may yours. Thats call debate and it is healthy.

If refuseing to support the irrational, cowardly and insane policies of a failed Predidency is being un-Patriotic then I'm, the same as my brothers since 1774 who have stood on ground saturated with their own blood staring down those who would oppress this country that awards you and others of your mind set the right to critize us.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
"Stewart's Platoon"

Posted by: Byron Skinner at September 4, 2005 07:12 PM

Mr. Skinner,

How can you live your life with such a poisoned heart? I have read many of you posts, and the vast majority of them are full of cynicism, hatred, paranoia, and a general lack of intelligence. Instead of spewing your ignorance and general hatred towards the government here on a daily, almost hourly basis, I would suggest you channel your boundless energy towards volunteer work.

Posted by: Rey at September 4, 2005 05:04 PM

Good Morning,

Some very interesting and thoughful observations here.If I may add a few of my own concerns.

1. Where are all the "Heart Felt" cash donations going?

2. Just how is that money going to get to those who are in desperate need?

2a. Who are the middlemen and how mush is their cut?

3. Why are Special Forces troops being sent into New Orleans? There missions in Afghanistan and Iraq were to destablize any opposition to the American interests.

4. Is there a conserted effort to destableize, nuturalize and/or elimate any political organization that would question the reinstallation of the "White Power" estlabishment that might have been incubiated in the desaster?

4a. Will ALL the recovered bodies be autopised to determine time and cause of death?

4b. If so, who will do the autopies, the Military?

5. Where is all this "Massive Federal Aid" going, to the displaced poor people who lost what little they had or to rebuild property?

6. And lastly, how did a "Colorado Horse Show Judge Trainer" become head of FEMA? It must be noted those he worked with him in Colorado were not saddened by his departure to Washington.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
"Stewart's Platoon"

Posted by: Byron Skinner at September 4, 2005 02:42 PM

1. Rey, You are dead on many of your points. I lived in New Orleans for 4 ½ years. The local and state government needed to take on a bigger role with the evacuation. They had all those school buses that they could have used but now are useless because of water damage. While the federal government is to blame, the local and state government share the same blame if not more.

2. What happened to New Orleans had been predicted for decades, they had dodged the bullet more than once. I think when Hurricane Andrew made land fall west of New Orleans in 1992 should have been a wake-up call. People in Florida heed the mandatory evacuation order. Active Duty military personnel stationed in the region were a mandatory order to leave with the exception of essential personnel. The President of Jefferson Parish stated before the Hurricane hit “there are die hards out there who will not leave, and unfortunately some will die hard.”

3. The people that took food, medical and baby supplies I find nothing wrong with what they did. They did it to survive. When you steal computers, electronics, TV sets and jewelry I do have a problem with that. You are a looter at that point. Tell me how will those electronic devices work without any electricity? I saw a clip on Fox News today that showed some New Orleans Police Officers who had to abandon their precinct when the floodwater rose. They took over a Wal-Mart and they stuff that had been looted was the clothes, electronics and jewelry. What was left was the school supplies, power tools and other items. There are many people down there who depend on the government to take care of them. Why not give them a gold spoon.

4. To Anonymous, BTW is right your wrong. Here is what the Posse Comitatus Act is and how it’s used. Federal troops cannot be used to enforce civilian laws. That is the responsibility of the National Guard since they fall under control of the Governor. POSSE COMITATUS ACT" (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to "execute the laws" except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.

5. My last comment is to the New Orleans Police Officers who resigned. They showed their true colors when they put their tails between their legs and deserted their fellow

Posted by: Dan at September 4, 2005 03:08 AM

I crawled into this thread while surfing the web for hurricane information.

As a physician who has lived in NO for 17 years, I am offended by many of the comments I read above. Predicting where storms will hit gets better and better, but ... I have lived through enough voluntary evacuations to know that sometimes you are heading into danger.

I am aware that the feds have been told of the possiblilty of this exact catastrophe. It was predictable. They even have PBS specials about it. Every year politicians have asked for wetlands protections and beefing up of the levee system to no avail. The head of the Army Corp of engineers 5 years ago proposed a more secure plan. Everyyear all of NO is told by talking heads that we will be wiped off the face of the earth ... everything form a TS to a Cat 5 spells doom. Ever hear of chicken little. I cannot even recall how many phone calls and discussions and evaluation of the news I did to discern that okay ... time to get out. That kind of decision making is high level and resource intensive. Government does this for those who cannot think for themselves. To order a mandatory evacuation with information known about storms 3 days out will cripple the economy every time you are wrong and at 3+ days you likely will be. Evidence ... Jefferson Parish 2 storms previously this year did just that and Aaron Broussard ... Parish President took a beating.

As for evacuating NO even with 5 days notice .... what a fable. I am lucky to own an automobile and keep myself informed and know numerous "back ways to get out". Did any of you see the congestion to get out of the city even with contraflow (only insterstate lanes open to only egress. It took me with my knowledge and private vehicle 9 hours to travel what normally takes me 2.

Evacuate to where? I knew where I was going. I have the good credit to secure a hotel of any cost and lock it out in my name with a phone call. Deciding where to send refugees is definitely a fed level function and was messed up here also. Even now that I have evacuated I am working in shelters that are some of the largest and barely have the infrastructure to sustain 7-10,000 people. That said, every shelter I have visted outside of New Orleans has been incredibly well run, mostly by local governemtn, red cross volunteers and an outpouring of community support.

Timing ... My own hospital which is tapped into the highest levels of emergency preparedness circles did not declare a code grey --- where our emergency procedures go into effect until Sunday morning. The mandatory evacuation was not called until Sunday (in part because the roads would have been congested hampering egress of lower lying parishes... something that has happened in the past although the anticipated storm was minimal). Comments like the poor could get a bus, walk out if they wanted to (really with nonabulatory, infants, children, disabled, elderly, carrying food/water etc.) are sheer stupidity. That's assuming you could muster that kind of transportation for those without cars. We see with this evolving crisis (in which I truly believe all are acting with best intentions) we can not muster that kind of transportation with any kind of speed.

I agree that planning should have been better. Since evacuation cannot mean getting everyone out of the city (an impossibility at present), then adequate hurricane shelters to house 400,000 people must exist AND THEY DON'T!! My hospital is hurricane proof. Most high rise building are relatively so. Most urban housing is not. Superdome and convention center provided wind protection and relative flood protection. IT DID NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE FOOD, WATER and attention to the real likelihood of sewerage failure. NO is hot and humid and I bitch when I have to watch my kids for 30 min to 1 hr playing outside. Imagine 5 days and dehydrated. Many of the people you see on tv did evacuate to shelters ... that flooded out, etc.

Another topic. Governmental prescence is historically needed in these situations. Leaders are needed to squelch anarchy. History has shown that mass diasters frequently lead to frustrations, violence and anarchy. Go to Pubmed and search about violence and mass disasters and you will see that this is not an uncommon event. I agree that significant attention was given to the repetitious denoucing of a minority of adults misbehaving and acting pissed about a situation in which they were not given information or a chance to have control. there also was inadequate police presece to stop true criminial acitivity unrelated to self-preservation (rape, etc.)

I am surprised there was not a riot when the hotel guests were evacuated out of queue in front of those evacuated to the Superdome ... I would have.

System failure ... how hard is it to get water and food to those who need it? How about dropping generators. There are vast expanses of road way to land aircraft ecetera to do this. Alternatively, I have seen it done with parachutes in foreign countries.

Kudos to the US Coast Guard and to the US Wildlife and Fisheries. These people had there act together. National guard and regular military ... too little, too late but definitely effective once there ... not sure whose fault ... maybe due to depletion of the troops that were sent to Iraq??

Whose oil is more important? NO which provides 33% of the domestic market or Iraq in which I have yet to hear of their oil fields even paying for our adventure over there and teetering on civil war with ever breath that we might leave.

my rant is over ... i am exhausted, disgusted and am uncertain of my own future ... I believe my facts above nevertheless are reasonable accurate.

Posted by: Scott benton at September 4, 2005 02:42 AM

Ms. Citizen Militia etc.

Are you insane? No, really, are you posting from the Nut House? Citizen Militias patrolling the border? Sounds like an invitation for white supremicists to head south and show what all those years of target practice in Idaho can do, now with real live moving human beings for targets. Every discruntled Tim McVeigh type will pile in thier pick-up trucks to fight thier own desert war if we have militias patrolling, aka hunting Mexicans, along our southern border.

Besides, why would Congress pass such a law? All the border states in the south are already red. All the nutjobs that would join this "militia" vote republican anyway, and no Congressman's job is at stake. No political advantage gained.

No, keep the rascists, gun nuts, and criminals away from the border and demand Congress increase the military and mandate a physical border patrol mission and presence by the trained military.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 3, 2005 11:02 PM

You are the most intelligent message posters on the internet, by the way. Support HR.3622 was coming up for a vote sometime..to have congress do its job re: citizen militias in every state.

I Wrote:
United States House of Representatives
1110 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-0001

Dear Representative X,

As your constituent, I urgently and strongly urge you to cosponsor and support passage of Rep. John Culberson's (R-TX) Border Protection Corps Act of 2005 (H.R. 3622).

H.R. 3622 is necessary because federal authorities do not currently have the manpower, the willpower, nor the resources to protect America's international borders like they are in their interests in Iraq.

We now have sworn testimony by top federal law enforcement officials that potential terrorists from countries with known Al Qaeda connections are entering the United States in significant numbers by assuming false Hispanic identities and hiding among the flood of illegal immigrants pouring across our southern border!

Extremely violent and dangerous criminal gangs like MS-13 and drug smugglers are crossing our southern borders in growing numbers. We must act now or it maybe too late.

This bill enables law-abiding American citizens to help defend our country as a member of a lawful militia force organized into a modern neighborhood watch border patrol program under the direct control of the State's governor and working in close cooperation with State and Federal law enforcement authorities.

I hope you will consider my concerns and cosponsor this important legislation. I also respectfully request that you respond to my letter, explaining your position on the Border Protection Corps Act.

Sincerely,

Ms. x

(HR3622 would work for crisis management until the Local, state, Fedgov forces can take over. Like in NOLA, right??)

Posted by: Citizen_Militias_Now! at September 3, 2005 06:47 PM

(comic relief or barbed sarcasm; read at your own risk)

This is terrible. Where will get our supply of mardi gras beads? How will I know which girls have been to mardi gras and lifted up thier shirts and which ones have not? NO is the world's largest supplier of topless amatuer women pictures. Will some other city take up the slack?

Like all Americans, I vow to do my part to help hurricane victims: as soon as I see one, I'm buying a magnetic car ribbon that says "I support hurricane victims"; I'll watch celebrities sing on TV; and I'll remain vigilant. It's what we're doing for Iraq and against terrorism (except celebrities; they hate America), and we're winning that fight.

Honestly, I think the federal government's response to this crisis will set back the black vote for the Republican Party to about where it was in... I don't know... 1968? CNN is dead on. Our government lies to us about NO, and CNN caught them on tape and with real people. Too bad Iraqis don't speak English and reporters aren't roving around over there.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at September 3, 2005 05:20 PM

I empathize with the people of NO in this situation, however, there is plenty of blame to be laid on the incompetency of the local government.

1. Louisiana government issued a mandatory evacuation order only AFTER the President recommended so.

2. Bus service for people evacuating the area suspended way before the effects of the hurricane began. Did the local school districts use their buses to take people out of harm's way? I don't think so...

3. Every household is encouraged to have an emergency kit to last at least 5 days. These are not costly items, and the kit could be assembled over time further diminishing the economic impact. It takes a while to project the massive efforts needed from outside city limits.

4. The city government obviously did not plan for the proper management of the Superdome. They didn't stock food or water for the people there, dind't provide a safe environment by checking for weapons and patrolling, didn't concentrate medical assets to provide for an indigent population, etc.

5. Instead of provide a calm and measured behavior to inspire and reasure his fellow citizens, the mayor went on a emotional rampage. Lead by example...

Furthermore, vandals and arsonists make the whole relief effort much more dificult. This was the time for those armed fellows to help maintain order and civility in their neighborhoods, but they elected to rob, burn and rape their own city.

America will rebuild NO, but this is a wake up call for us. We need to better plan at a local level.

Posted by: Rey at September 3, 2005 12:58 PM

This is no "Bush administration mantra". It is a fact. All across our coasts we have always had people building homes and businesses in harms way - hoping it will not happen to them. We have had people staying in their homes during the storms - hoping that it would veer left or right. We wait until “too late” to order evacuations – hoping the storm goes another direction. Let’s not blame all this on the government and begin to take personal responsibility for ourselves and our choices. And – everyone - having guessed wrong on this one – let’s face up to it and clean up the mess.

Posted by: Keith Yerian at September 3, 2005 10:22 AM

"We have always hoped for the best." sounds like a Bush administration mantra.

Right up there with "no one thought the leveees might break."

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 3, 2005 10:07 AM

RE: If the levee breaches had been the result of a terrorist attack, would the response haave been any different?
Levee breaches would have been significantly different in that it would have been much easier to get to the city - perhaps not around the city - but at least to the city. This is a multistate disaster. If terrorists had breached the levees then the airports, major roads, and rivers would have been open and movement within the state would have been much easier. So relief would have been there in hours. However, the number of dead would have been vastly larger since the residents would not have had an opportunity to move out of harms way.

RE: "If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days..."
So - looking backward... when have we ever responded better? We have always hoped for the best. NO is very fortunate that the storm reached Cat 5 before dropping back to Cat 4. Otherwise I suspect the number of residents choosing to stay would have been much higher. And I also suspect that - if a simular storm heads toward NO in a couple of year - many more residents will leave.

Posted by: Keith Yerian at September 3, 2005 09:56 AM

"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.

Republican Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts called the government's response "an embarrassment."

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 3, 2005 08:47 AM

Still and yet, where is the machinery of Homeland Security that has been (we were told) developed over the last 4 years?

If the levee breaches had been the result of a terrorist attack, would the response haave been any different?

If so, why? If not, WHY not?

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 3, 2005 08:31 AM

Let’s allow for some personal responsibility while we are dumping on FEMA and the federal government. This problem would be much smaller if people that could have left prior to the storm had done so.
After every hurricane there are news stories about people that chose to stay for one reason or another and end up regretting the decision. While there are substantial numbers of people that did not have transportation out of NO I am certain that there are some that chose to stay. (I watched a news report yesterday where a man was apologizing to his dogs because he chose to stay.)
If the estimate I read of 200,000 staying in NO is correct with 120,000 not owning transportation then 75,000 made a choice to stay. I also suspect that some of the 120,000 without transportation were moved from NO by friends, relatives, and neighbors. Or at least had offers to leave.
And give me a break… taking jewelry, TVs and piles of NFL sports clothing is base thievery.

Posted by: Keith Yerian at September 3, 2005 08:11 AM

A very heart warming thread....
I am slated to go to NO on the 14th as a releif for command and control staff. I don't pretend to make excuses for the DHS. The effort has some holes in it to be sure, but those who compare this to 9/11 should be whacked in the back of the head. FEMA is taking a LOT of criticism over this. FEMA was never designed to stand up a full organization by itself. It was designed to come in once a state response was 80% exhausted. This is the FIRST time I ever recall where FEMA has tried to build the entire organization from the ground up. The State and Local forces are non-exsistant. Infrastructure is completely deystroyed. In the past I have found FEMA FAR too reliant on cell phones, just like many organizations that exsist in this "just in time" economy. Give me a good ole fashioned motorolla any day. With communications goes decent logistics and personnel management.
While the DHS was flamed as an innefectual collection of agencies, how 'bout that Coast Guard. 5000 people rescued by helo, and another 2000 rescued by boat! with only 70 assets in the region you can do the math to see how hard those boys and girls are working. At least one part of DHS is firing on all cylinders.

Posted by: highlanderburial at September 3, 2005 04:03 AM

I guess it would take a few days to first
plan, then implement, then organize private
organizations into the mix. Information has to
be gathered first to make a rational decision.

Clothes, food and WHATEVER is required is fair game for New Orleans citizens, we can't judge them.

People capping at each other is NOT acceptable
but doesn't a three gunshot signal into the air mean distress internationaly?

Perhaps the people weren't aiming at the helicoptors after all.

Don't be surprised if despirate people do despirate things. They are in a unenviable position right now.

Soon ,the help will be overwhelming..but there
is only enough room for so many cooks in the
kitchen right now. I feel for them too.

The brave men and women at ground zero
are doing a heroic job.
Resources are getting gathered.
It will be OK.

Posted by: Strak at September 3, 2005 03:11 AM

All I could think of, today, when I was watching the news, was: Now I know why I fear my government. There's a bunch of morons running this country.

Posted by: Robert Bonomo at September 2, 2005 11:41 PM

May I just be the first to say that stephen russell exemplifies the worst of the Grover Norquist crowd in terms of his facile analysis of this, the worst natural disaster to hit the US.

"Fix City politics." Brilliant recommendation.

(I'll say this, though: I tend to agree that the problem might be too much of THIS PARTICULAR federal government.)

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 10:31 PM

I blame this fiasco on MORE GOVT & Less Independent minded citizenry & the NO citizens who DID NOT LEAVE WHEN ORDERED & Blame the State & City for NO DISASTER PLANS IF ANY.
I heard the NO Mayor radio talk & He never did refer to a Master Disaster Plan for NO.
Nothing.
Blame local politics, racisim, the KKK,
& US Govt.
Dump the parrish system & move NO 100 miles north & flood Orig NO for LAKE NEW ORLEANS.
City would need Megaenginering to rebuild levees, RR etc alone.
Any takers here.
& then to renovate French Qtr & Superbowl.
More $$$$$$.
Fix City politics.

Posted by: stephen russell at September 2, 2005 09:37 PM

> double slaps for those punks seen running off
> with clothing

Lord knows, shelter, food and, uh, clothing are the essentials of life for the modern human being.

Oh, wait, they don't have electricity, the cloths they own are probably underwater/scattered across three counties and they can't wash the cloths they're wearing... humm, I'd say clothing is fair game.

In fact... considering that you probably can't saunter up to an ATM machine and get some cash, consdiering all banks and business as essentially closed, you're going to see a barter economy spring up. The Franc of that economy is goods and services... everyone's got services, but that's maybe 10%-20% of that kind of economy... so goods it is, the easier to carry and more desirable, the better.... water, food, gas, boats, generators, and, yes, eventually even TV sets.

Never confuse what may look like base thievery with what may actually be economic necessity; the world is not as altruistic as you think it to be.

Posted by: anonymous at September 2, 2005 07:52 PM

> Oh and BTW, in case everyone has forgotten the
> military can’t be used to police civilians in
> this country. The National Guard can, and the
> Coast Guard can but not the Army, Navy, Air
> Force or Marines.

That's a load of hooie and you know it.

I still remember the little trip the Marines made from Camp Pendelton to squelch the LA riots.

The guard is as unprepared to handle wide-spread emergent hostile activity as choir boys in a whorehouse (well, maybe less so after spending a few years in Iraq, but still...)

The *ONLY* reason that the military isn't more often used in these types of situations is the impact that it might have on the all "volunteer" force.

Posted by: anonymous at September 2, 2005 07:26 PM

I'm pretty sure what we're seeing is the emergence of the "natural disaster riot". What a perfect time to test non-lethal weapons on Americans who don't matter (let's face it, all those who had the means/common sense to escape the arrival of the storm did... and that pretty much leaves the poor and ignorant behind as federal government guinea pigs). 3 months to get things vaugely back to "normal"? ...that's what the engineers are saying. If you don't believe decisions are being made around those estimates, you've never worked with the federal government before.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: America is nothing more than a third world country waiting to happen. I'd suggest you take a look at the super typhoon that has just rolled over Guam and about to roll over Okinawa Japan... 170knt winds predicted and there will be zero homeless, no looters, comm. will still work and everyone will go back to work shortly after the storm passes. It's about having a culture of prepardness, quality building standards that are actually enfored, not building where you obviously shouldn't be building (no matter what the army corp of engineers pitches to get funding) and having a fatalistic realization that it *WILL* happen again and again and again...

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for yourself, because your country isn't going to do for you what should have been done a long, long time ago (and still won't even after the lesson has been re-learned for the nth time).

Posted by: anonymous at September 2, 2005 07:03 PM

"Not having control over" and "not responding competently to" are two different things entirely.

And the blame (or "accountability" as some might say) for an incompetent response should surely be assigned.

One of these tragedies (the direct effects of the hurricane) could not have been prevented. The indirect effects surely could have. And they'd been predicted by many experts for many years. It's just that no-one cared to spend what it took to evacuate the poor from NOLA.

This is OUR government, that has been using OUR money to (they claim) prepare for disasters both man-made and natural. I think we as a country have every right to demand for an accounting of how those resources were spent.

If they don't intend to respond, they should stop pretending to be in charge so we can choose to elect someone who cares about this kind of problem. Someone who knows their ass from a hole in the ground. Someone who does more than set up press conferences while citizens are dying.

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 06:43 PM

I agree with rap. I don't see why people have to go around blaming others for something that nobody had control over. Ok, maybe some things here and there could have been done earlier, but nothing could have been done to prevent a tragedy like this.

Posted by: patriot at September 2, 2005 06:10 PM

I think we need to calm down a bit and look at both sides.
It looks like the city dropped the ball on the evacuation and is trying to push blame on the feds. The feds got caught with their pants down and are trying to play catch-up.
Another problem is they may have had plans or supplies but was it communicated properly? Did the people left behind know?
And my first instinct on the people who stayed behind was "what a bunch of friggin' morons". It now appears that most of those were people without the resources to just move. Some may not have been able to leave ahead of time because of work. Some may have stayed out of fear of the unkown. I'm not saying we should provide 5-star accomadations for evacuees, but every person in New Orleans should have been aware they could get a cot and a hot meal somewhere.
It appears there's enough slaps to go around: officials playing CYA, those who had the means to leave and stayed, the idiots taking potshots and the looters (I will exclude those hungry and thristy persons who only looted food or other critical supplies, double slaps for those punks seen running off with clothing).

Posted by: Leon at September 2, 2005 04:33 PM

John:

You think that this is just "the same folk that have been screeching for the last 5 years... beat[ing] up on the administration... again"?

John, we've traded e-mail a thousand times. I like you and respect you. But in this case, my friend, you are way off-base.

Check out what Joe Scarborough -- former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough -- had to say:

SCARBOROUGH: When hurricanes crash across America`s coastline, citizens can usually count on a quick, efficient response. That`s what Florida Governor Jeb Bush and the feds gave Floridians four times this last year. But the fed`s response this week, from New Orleans to Biloxi, has been heartbreakingly slow, confused, and, in some places, nonexistent.

And that`s left some Gulf Coast residents seeing red.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we can send money to Iraq, why can`t our president come down here? It`s not over. You know, it -- I don`t understand this. We have waited five days for relief…

SCARBOROUGH (voice-over): When I showed up in Biloxi the day after the storm, there were no police officers, no National Guardsmen, no relief agents.

(on camera): So, you have been in the shelter since almost the storm began, and this is the -- these are the first supplies today that you got?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

SCARBOROUGH: You haven`t seen the state government here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody, nobody.

SCARBOROUGH (voice-over): My wife, Susan, was so distressed by what she saw that she and her friends launched a fund-raising drive through a local charity. By the time we arrived in Biloxi, we were besieged by residents, who told us four days later that we were some of the first relief workers they had seen.

That had many of my wife`s Republican friends asking where the president they voted for has been for the past week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am very disappointed. And, you know, you want to go to the very top and complain. And I have voted for Bush, but I am sort of disappointed. I mean, I feel like, if I was in charge right now, there are a lot of things I would be doing differently. I mean, there was a military base right across the street from where we were handing stuff out. And why are there not gigantic helicopters full of water and stuff bringing it into these people? There was no one on the base.

SCARBOROUGH: A local pastor called the relief effort dismal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we have seen today is a huge tragedy. And just a few moments ago, I was speaking with some newspeople from Barcelona, Spain, who came over and said, when you are in trouble -- when we are in trouble, you come immediately to our aid. Where are your people that help? He said, I don`t see anybody.

And I had to confess, neither do I. We made the drive over. We didn`t see any relief trucks. I think we saw one police car, no state troopers, no military help on the roads. That`s my biggest impression. We have driven in here, and as far as I know, we are the only relief agency that has come in today.

SCARBOROUGH: And most of the people that we spoke to today simply believe the federal government and the state government have forgotten them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a disaster. This is a catastrophe. I don`t think America ever seen anything like this. I mean, this is like a Third World country. And this is the most powerful country on Earth, and they can`t come down here and help us?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH: The most powerful country on Earth, and yet, again, I have been here for three days now. You have, too. I wrote it down. Today, at 5:11 p.m., was the first time I saw a National Guardsman out on the street. What is going on here

Posted by: Noah Shachtman at September 2, 2005 04:23 PM

Yes, I know that some people are getting rescued, and that some are getting the supplies they need. And yes, I know that "it's hard work".

And I'm not blaming those who are helping. I want to blame those who failed to do their jobs and are not trying enough to help now.

As we all should be blaming them. It's called "accountability," and though it seems to be out of fashion these days, it's a prerequisite for a functioning democracy.

Another prerequisite for a functioning democracy is that citizens understand that sacrifices are necessary for the common good. And that out of a sense of decency and empathy for one's fellow citizens one might restrain oneself from blaming the dying for their predicament.

But empathy and decency, like standards of accountability for public servants, seem to be quaint notions these days. It's far more fashionable to criticize the powerless.

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 02:54 PM

Tom, I only talked about my past problems because you acted as if you know everything about me. Which obviously you do not.

I would talk about how easy it would be to loose people only a few blocks away with no communication, or how many tons of food and water was pre-staged. I could talk to you about how hard it is to move supplies in a flooded area. Or how many of the people stuck actually are getting food and water... But let’s be honest, you don't care, you want to blame those trying to help because it's easier than suggesting people should try and help themselves or think ahead. Some people don't think they should ever be responsible for their own actions, and should never suffer the consequences of their own mistakes. Oh well...

Posted by: The Cenobyte at September 2, 2005 02:35 PM

As to figuring out what the problems are so that they can be fixed for the next disaster: I suggest that we start with the fact that the federal disaster preparedness agencies have been headed by political hacks in what amounts to a dispensation of patronage.

There are lots of other problems, but that seems to me to be the one that has the most potential to affect us all.

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 02:15 PM

Cenobyte: I don't actually really care about your personal history, nor about your tidy inspirational by-your-bootstraps morality tale. We're discussing a disaster of epic proportions that no-one at the local, state or federal level seems to have bothered to prepare for (despite the fact that the possibility has been repeatedly discussed for decades). We're not talking about getting behind on your rent here.

Also, the Superdome (near the convention center) WAS an evacuation point. But you seem to be telling me that the emergency responders can't find the 12000 people who went next door when the roof came off.

Have you ever BEEN to New Orleans? Do you not UNDERSTAND how hard it would have been to "get inland"? Try looking at a map sometime: the "inland" direction is via the Ponchartain causeway. I sure wouldn't want to have to walk tens of miles over a lake wondering if the storm would hit me or not. Nor would I want to walk East (to Slidell) or west (over the bayous that are already semi-flooded).

The evacuation of the city has been fretted over for many years by engineers and city planners. The authorities (at all levels) didn't seem to think this was important enough to pay attention to.

But let's continue to blame those poor folks who as we speak are struggling to stay alive, shall we?

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 02:06 PM

I see all the questions and statements about the federal government not responding quick enough or not acting on the leeves sooner, but where is the Louisiana government and the City of New Orleans action plans for such disaster. If this has been expected for years, why is there not a plan in effect to do what everyone is complaining about.

Posted by: Indy at September 2, 2005 01:47 PM

I served 10 years in the florida national guard, and my wife and I are currently volunteer with the Red Cross in the big bend of florida. playing the blame game is stupid. Figure out where the damn problems are, figure out the best way to fix it, and get it done! Once the problems are solved, figure out the lessons learned and do what you can to prepare for the next one.

Posted by: rap at September 2, 2005 01:36 PM

Obviously I am in a minority when it comes to personal responsibility. Everyone seems to think that they should just get a hand out even if they make no effort to help themselves.

1) I suggest they move inland from the storm. Perhaps to a number of inland shelters setup. If not their then parking deck would work, just get inland. They must have said this on the news a million times before the storm. I don't have a suggestion of where to go as I don't live there, but I know that 20 miles outside of N.O. there are shelters with power, water, food and bathrooms.

2) The convention center was not a evacuation point for N.O. These people looking for a place to go after it was to late broke into the building and used it as a shelter. I understand why they did it but they can't blame the releif workers for not helping people they didn't know where there. Beyond that, they are trying to help them in a difficult situation, while they get blamed for people failing to follow the evacuation order.

3) As for missing a hot meal. When I ws younger I made my fair share of mistakes and found myself on the streets. It was hard but I worked my way out of it and could easily be called upper middle class today. I did this without ever taking a dime of govt help. I worked daily work for daily pay until I could get myself up on my feet again. So let’s stop throwing insults around shall we?

Posted by: The Cenobyte at September 2, 2005 01:14 PM

Cenobyte:

You don't get it. The 15,000 people stranded at the New Orleans Convention Center -- it's not that they "didn't leave when they where suppose to." [sic] Those people were *told* to evacuate there. The Convention Center was the safe haven, they were told. Everything will be OK there.

And then, once those people got there, they were abandoned, without food or water or medical care. Left to die, in other words.

Maybe these people should have been smart enough to ignore the directions. But shouldn't the officials who sent them there and then promptly forgot them take a whole lot more of the blame?

nms

Posted by: Noah Shachtman at September 2, 2005 12:48 PM

Uh, Cenobyte, you're not making any sense. When the evacuation order was given, it wasn't clear where the storm would hit. Are you suggesting that hundreds of thousand of people up and start walking to a place that MIGHT be safe, but that might be worse than where they lived? Are they supposed to be carrying their food, water and clothing on their backs?

Where would YOU have chose to walk to? Slidell? (Oops, wrong choice: Slidell was wiped out also.) Would you just start walking on I-10 westward and hope that the hurricane didn't strike you down while you had no shelter of any kind?

Many of these people had NO money, as it was the end of the month. How do you suppose the hotels outside of the city were going to treat them, had they arrived en masse, broke and hungry.

They took a gamble that their own homes would provide better safety and security than they could have walking down the freeway. They lost that gamble.

And now the complascent members of the "personal responsibility" crowd such as yourself (who, I would hazard to guess, never had to miss a hot meal in your life) are using their misfortune to absolve from ANY responsibility the political hacks who make up the disaster relief apparatus.

So, so predictable, and so, so inhumane.

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 12:22 PM

No I would not like to see them die quickly, but the idea that they are totally not responcible to trying to take can of themselves is rediculous. I gave the bus ticket as one option, I mean hell from the time the evacuation order was given until the time the store hit you could have walked some place that as of Wednesday had power and never lost water.

There are people that could not get out for one reason or another, but lots and lots and lots of people that could (Far more than half the people left behind) had a way out and choose not to, now they and the unfortunate few that couldn't get out are paying for their mistake.

The 2000 U.S. Census reports that 26 percent of New Orleans' has no access to an automobile. That's about 126,000 people and apparently not a single one of them found another way out of the city (bus, a friends car, on foot). I feel bad for them but I do think that at least part of this is the fault of the masses of people that didn't leave.

Posted by: The Cenobyte at September 2, 2005 11:57 AM

Don't be stupid.

Bush is a figurehead; a political decision-maker and policy-shaper. He is not in a position to actually get anything done.

What do you want him to say to make DHS and FEMA do a better job? His words don't smooth-over incompetence, and certainly don't widen bureaucratic bottlenecks.

Bush will never be realistically at fault for doing anything. He is responsible for the concepts behind what everyone else does. How they are executed on a tactical level is out of his control.

It seems inexcusable, however, to allow a major U.S. city to be one material failure away from elimination. For years. How many presidents have allowed this to stand?

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

Posted by: Greg Krsak at September 2, 2005 11:45 AM

Cenobyte joins the blithe chorus of those who have no clue. A $20 bus ticet out of town? Just how many busses does he think Greyhound was running in the days between the evacuation order and the hurricane strike? Was the private sector supposed to be ready for this where the government couldn't handle it?

There's a point at which this lack of compassion resembles rank stupidity more than anything else.

Maybe like DW he'd like to see the victims of this disaster just die quickly, so they'll stop "bitching and complaining".

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 11:32 AM

There has always been lots of predictions of idiots acting the way they are in N.O. They say that there is only 5 days between Civilization and Anarchy. But I don't blame anymore except the people that didn't leave when they where suppose to. The skies over N.O are filled with Helos day and night and they are trying to move people out and food and water in as fast as they can. But people hundreds of Thousands of them that didn't leave when they where told it was that or face death are now facing the death that they where told about. Much of the city is impassable making moving the millions of meals and bottles of water difficult at best. I don't blame people for going after water and food really but they are in this spot because they didn't listen. Now they are in trouble and they can’t get out and the supplies they need can’t get in. Helos are not going to supply to cargo capacity to move enough food and water for 60k+ in the superdome, 10k+ in the convention center, and the thousands and thousands of other people stranded all over the city.

They should have gotten out when they where told to. Don't give me the they can't afford it bit, $20 gets a bus ticket to a town 100 miles away which would have been more than far enough.

Oh and BTW, in case everyone has forgotten the military can’t be used to police civilians in this country. The National Guard can, and the Coast Guard can but not the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines.

Posted by: The Cenobyte at September 2, 2005 11:19 AM

And so DW throws up the new R talking points:

"It's Not Our Fault":
No one could have predicted this! (Except, they did, and the organizations in question are tasked with planning for exactly these sorts of things.)

"Racism":
They're animals! (Put you and your loved ones and a firearm on the roof of an inundated house for 5 days and see what your reaction is when that helicopter passes you over AGAIN. Turns out your decision processes can be impaired by extreme dehydration...)

"It's actually the Dems fault!"
In the absence of the ability to blame Clinton (although I'm sure it's coming), blame the Dem Governor, not Bush. (Except that the DHS has absorbed most of the funding and the authority that the states used to wield in these matters.)

Remember when Republicans were in favor of accountability? I guess it's less attractive when you have lapses to be accountable for...

Posted by: uurf at September 2, 2005 11:00 AM

Quotes from yesterday:

President Bush: "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."

FEMA chief Brown: "[...] the federal government did not even know about the Convention Center people until today."

You can certainly blame the local and state governments. But disasters of this magnitude have ALWAYS involved a federal response. And this disaster, of PRECISELY this magnitude, has been predicted for DECADES.

The fact that YOU (DW) and GW Bush have been ignorant of this doesn't absolve the federal government of any responsibility for responding.

Now tell us with a straight face that this administration has any shred of compassion or competence.

(And it must be nice for you that you can comfortably write off the refugees who are "bitching and complaining" as "animals" so that you don't have to feel any discomfort at their plight.)

Posted by: Tom Ames at September 2, 2005 10:58 AM

Are you blind? Can't you see that there are thousands of soldiers performing rescue efforts in the entire south and southeastern U.S. Those people on TV who are bitching and complaining are ALIVE. They don't need to be rescued! The government has trucks lined-up for miles to bring in relief supplies, but how do you get there when there are no roads? There are helicopters being shot at and they can't shoot back, so do you just force them to "take a bullet for the team" to "drop sandwiches" to people?

To pull the soldiers from Fort Polk to perform rescue operations doesn't make any sense! Those soldiers are preparing to relieve others who have been in Iraq for a year, or more. There are plenty of National Guard soldiers and helicopters carrying supplies and equipment, and performing search and rescue operations in and around the area. You don't see people being plucked from their rooftops every few minutes now, do you? No, of course not, it's sporadic, therefore, not news-worthy. What is news-worthy? What attracts viewers? Human suffering! And we will continue to hear and see the news reporters focus on the human suffering, or anything else they can get "good video" of, for days so they can attract all the viewers they can.

Get a grip and look at what's happening down there. Soldiers, civilians, everyone that can, is trying to get into the area and help. But ABSOLUTELY NO ONE could have predicted the scope of the devastation. And no one could have predicted that some idiots would actually shoot at the rescue helicopters! What kind of a person takes the mindset that they shoot loot TVs from stores and shoot at their rescuers? Animals, that's who!

If anyone should have had a plan in place, it should have been the governmental body of New Orleans. They live there! They should have understood the extent of the potential damage! They should have had a disaster preparedness plan in place that they could utilize, then use federal assistance to bolster that plan! But THEY DIDN'T! Why? Because NO ONE could know the extent of this type of disaster.

Posted by: DW at September 2, 2005 09:56 AM

Max: I'll make some calls later on today. But according to local news reports like this one, the 4/10th is very much stood up. http://www.leesvilledailyleader.com/articles/2005/08/26/news/news2.txt

nms

Posted by: Noah Shachtman at September 2, 2005 09:22 AM

The same folk that have been screeching for the last 5 years about anything and everything that they could possibly get their hands on to beat up on the administration are at it again. Color me unimpressed. I don't see any of them trying to make positive things happen, just politics as usual for that crowd. Clinton in his joint interview on CNN with Bush '41 did a better job and demonstrated that he actually gave some thought to the matter instead of kneejerking.

Posted by: JSAllison at September 2, 2005 09:07 AM

Uhh.... Dead on-except I don't think That Brigade at Fort Polk's stood up yet. In fact it won't be ready for quite some time.

Which makes me wonder if any of this is accurate.

Posted by: max at September 2, 2005 07:28 AM