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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon

War is hell. But it’s worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why they’re not talking about it, much.

This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE - "Novel Explosive"- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.

smaw-ne sequence.JPGA post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: "One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed." Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as "an awesome piece of ordnance."

It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: "SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms."

The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:

"Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure."

The rational for this approach was straightforward:

"Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives...all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned."

The manufacturers, Talley, make bold use of its track record, with a brochure headlined Thermobaric Urban Destruction."

The SMAW-NE has only been procured by the USMC, though there are reports that some were 'borrowed' by other units. However, there are also proposals on the table that thousands of obsolete M-72 LAWs could be retrofitted with thermobaric warheads, making then into effective urban combat tools.

But in an era of precision bombs, where collateral damage is expected to be kept to a minimum, such massively brutal weapons have become highly controversial. These days, every civilian casualty means a few more “hearts and minds” are lost. Thermobaric weapons almost invariable lead to civilian deaths. The Soviet Union was heavily criticized for using thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan because they were held to constitute "disproportionate force," and similar criticisms were made when thermobarics were used in the Chechen conflict. According to Human Rights Watch, thermobaric weapons "kill and injure in a particularly brutal manner over a wide area. In urban settings it is very difficult to limit the effect of this weapon to combatants, and the nature of FAE explosions makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter from their destructive effect."

So it’s understandable that the Marines have made so little noise about the use of the SMAW-NE in Fallujah. But keeping quiet about controversial weapons is a lousy strategy, no matter how effective those arms are. In the short term, it may save some bad press. In the long term, it’s a recipe for a scandal. Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide "we do/do not to use X". Otherwise when the media find do find out – as they always do -- not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of “covering up.”

I'm undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up. Otherwise you get claims of “chemical weapons” and “violating the Geneva Protocol.” Which doesn't really help anyone. The warfighter is left in doubt, and it hands propaganda to the bad guys. Just look at what happened it last week’s screaming over white phosphorous rounds.

-- David Hambling

THERE'S MORE: Americans aren’t the only ones with these weapons. The Chinese, the Russians -- even guerilla groups -- now have thermobarics' shockingly destructive power in their grasps.

Comments

America has become so good at using propaganda that even it's own people believe that it's a free country. America this, America that.Trying to be world police...to keep it's fingers in all the pies more like.Oil,strategic bases,money,converting states to allies through whatever means.They have been using Nazi techniques for years.Propaganda techniques and technology and who knows what else. Take 9/11 for example..inside job? Don't rule it out huh.I do agree that fighting for your country may be valiant and brave..but before you sign your life away,when the american people's lives have been in no danger from foreigners in the first place,you should maybe consider either what your fighting for or who's side (if any) ahould you be on.

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Posted by: any at June 25, 2009 02:47 AM


Wrong weapon for Falluja. Just flatten the place with B-52s. Why should one American die for a bunch of mud huts.

Posted by: Joe Rocker at June 24, 2009 03:03 PM


I say that they can use it as long it doesn't affect us in the long or short run. It may be useful at war but sheesh, if that thing misfires and hits a nursery or something then...

Posted by: Bill at April 9, 2009 09:35 PM


History has shown the side with the more advanced technology wins conflicts? No... how bout Vietnam? How bout the Russian-Aghani conflict in the eighties? How about the war of independence? Insurgents will outlast occupiers. Although I hope it is different for us in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Posted by: George Bradstein at March 29, 2009 08:19 PM


if you Think 911 is wake you are retarded also this war we are in is a good thing a some ways

Posted by: Cortez at March 10, 2009 01:04 PM


I find that if you are prepared to take a life, or have your life in harm's way, one does not think about proportionate use of force. I neither support nor oppose the taking of life, but under certain circumstances when deadly action is required; history has shown that the side with the most advanced weaponry and tactics win. Given the unreasonable alternative aren't you glad that "we" possess and control these pieces of hardware? I would hope that any patriotic American would be willing to meet me on this basic level. But I would also be inclined to remind all of you trigger happy citizens out there that, death doesn't win wars alone, it's the life after the conflict that determines the proof of victory.

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Posted by: replicashoes at October 23, 2008 09:32 PM


ye you idiots !!!! a bully bulls when you are not grown, we have grown and be warned.

Posted by: fuc u at September 4, 2008 12:30 AM


you all need to wake the hell up, its a damn weapon! so is an M16 a .45 pistol, an m67 gernade. they all do the same thing, kill! they all have the capability to take life, hostile or not. yes some are more effective than others but these are things that you cannot possibly understand unless you are there, unless you are in the military, this life is entirley different than what you are used to. we signed a contract saying we will take up this life and make sure that you dont have to. so we can only expect you not to understand. no one is trying to kill innocent people that is never an objective in any mission, its just war and no one can eliminate the accidents or terrible things that happen in such an environment, every war has been the same way. war is hell and its the devil dog's territory let them handle it before our enemies come over here again.

Posted by: Warhead at August 17, 2008 04:13 AM


would be far less likely to cause massive damage than, say, an artillery barrage, or an airstrike. Nothing controversial about the other two, so there shouldn't be anything controversial about this.

Posted by: Portable Media Player at June 15, 2008 09:10 PM


There's a thermobaric warhead (either Russian or Bulgarian) for the RPG7 that is apparently equivalent to a 122mm artillery round.
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Posted by: Jeff at June 10, 2008 06:38 AM


Why does it matter if the Geneva rules are followed? our enemies don't, so why should we. They don't care how many civilians they kill, why should we. So far as I'm concerned ALL Iraqis can die a horrible death, it won't hurt my feelings one little bit. If it was up to me, the first foot soldier would never have touched ground over there, the entire middle east would have been one big hunk of fused glass on 9\12, had it been up to me. None of those bleeps are worth a damn, neither is that entire area. Nuke em and be done with it, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it.

Posted by: tootall at May 28, 2008 04:43 AM


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Posted by: Air Freight Forwarder at May 26, 2008 03:04 AM


Quite the intellectual bunch. There is a saying that best describes this whole argument about warfare. War is hell.

Why would we want it otherwise? War should be a horrible bloody affair that drenches our memories in mountains of gore.

It should be the most horrendous nightmare packed full of pestilence and disease.

Bombs should be huge and kill the innocent as well as the combatants in a non discriminatory manner.

And when it hurts enough and costs enough then perhaps we will be less willing to wage it.

Posted by: Sean at May 23, 2008 05:41 PM


Analogy: It is not a very scary thing to fight a big guy with boxing gloves and all the rules of boxing. However it is horrifying to get in the ring with a big guy bare knuckle NO Rules No holds barred.

Posted by: 寫字樓傢俬 at May 21, 2008 10:07 AM


First off if your a civillian and the marines are using this weapon you are a dumb motherfucker for even being there. I f you are you are a terrorist or in support of terrorist point blank.

Secondly in ww2 they carpetr bombed citys.......all sides. Fire weapons caused more deaths than the nukes. [Tokyo] even after the first was dropped the emporor still did not surrender. so we had to drop another.;

the point is when your in a long bulshit war it dosnt matter what you use to end it as long as it ends

Posted by: john miller at May 15, 2008 10:02 AM


In any case, I'm glad to see they took it down finally.

Posted by: mini storage at May 14, 2008 04:53 AM


I am uncertain whether this means the left should turn ts back on the poor, or whether it should turn its back on egalitarianism. Either way, it' not going to happen.


I am certain it didn't mean either one. The point very clearly was about the conflation of the ideals, not the abandonment of either one. Strawmen very rarely bring evidence and rationality to any debate, but I applaud your skill with the matches ...

And on a different note, I think am nearly certain that Tyler's irony wasn't comletely lost on almost all of the readers of this post....

Posted by: Overseas Removal at May 6, 2008 05:36 AM


Dennis Kucinich+ Gimli+9/11=Conspiracy?

Posted by: A.Smith at April 25, 2008 08:06 PM


SMAW-NE doesn't seem "brutal" or "barbaric." Dead by extreme SMAW-NE over-pressure is the same as dead by artillery barrage, is the same as dead by cruise missile, is the same as...etc. SMAW is more target-specific than other options which minimizes collateral damage/casualties?

Posted by: 辦公室傢俬 at April 22, 2008 02:02 AM


I am not at all impressed with the terrible weapons of death used by American war criminals in the illegal war against the innocent Iraqi people. For death comes to use all sooner or later. What impresses me though is the stupidity of young American men and women who unneccesarily fight, get wounded and die as proxy soldiers for big oil and Israel. Every American soldier who was and is in Iraq today has had some exposure to DU aerosols. Sooner or later many if not all will succumb to this extremely deadly poison. An early death is a given for those who foolishly ventured to fight in Iraq. American soldiers showed no mercy nor will they receive mercy as the minute quantities of radiation eat away at their bodies. DU is the great leveler

Posted by: 家務助理 at April 22, 2008 02:00 AM


For all of you people who are quick to judge and don't even research the truth, who are to quick to believe what they want to here and not the Truth. I am a 0351 Assultman With the United States Marines and this weapon in the article is my primary weapon. First of all if your still reading this still, we are not allowed to fire this rocket in a civilian areas, its not like we are running through the town like its Fucking 4th of July. Last tour my unit made we never even used them. SO TO EVERY ONE OF YOU WHO THINK THAT MY FRIENDS DIED OVER THERE FOR NO REASON AND ALL YOU CAN SAY IS NOTHING BUT TO MOCK THE ONES WHO STILL FIGHT EVERY DAY AND LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY THEY CAN COME HOME AND SEE THERE FAMILIES WIVES "IF THEY ARE STILL HERE WHEN THEY GET BACK" ALL OF YOU WHO DONT SUPPORTS US THE TROUPS, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WAR BUT THE PEOPLE WHO GO THERE AND STAND UP FOR SOMETHING THEY BELIEVE IN, IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT US. FUCK YOU!!!!

Posted by: a414669 at April 14, 2008 08:29 PM


I think people creating such weapon should shut their kids and parents first testing his creature, ony having pain people can feel what they bring in world.

Any weapon is bulshit and nothing else, and soldjers are stupir mutherfuckers

Posted by: Duman at April 9, 2008 04:28 AM


In any case, I'm glad to see they took it down finally.

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Posted by: ami at February 17, 2008 08:16 AM


what a set of fucktards, china's gonna own u all

Posted by: igoturnumber pal at February 15, 2008 09:46 AM


im sorry but its shoulder fired multipurpose assault weapon. in the marine version there is 4 different kinds of rockets. i have read where ppl have said it is inhumane because civilians cant hide from the blast. its not like it is just being fired indisciminately assaultman are well trained it is our primary weapon we would never fire a rocket into a building that might have civilians in it the chance of giving away a position or not having effect on target is to great we dont carry enough to just send them down range. thank you

Posted by: Marc at February 10, 2008 02:31 PM


To any americans out there i'm a true 0351 assaultman in the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS eeerrrrrr i know and love the shoulder launched multipurpose assault weapon and the NE or thermobaric round is in fact a great advance in shoulder launched rockets however that not what i have to say I would just like to say a little something to all those that apose the U.S. the MARINE CORPS IS HERE AND STANDING TALL SO KEEP ON TRYING TO FUCK AROUND WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ME AND MY BROTHERS WILL BE PAYING YOU A VISIT AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE I WILL GIVE YOU A TASTE OF THAT THERMOBARIC ROCKET

Posted by: 0351 at January 22, 2008 10:14 PM


A un named source told me that the Russians pre-developed a missle shoulder fire system similar to this a few months ago. We think they stole it from the net off of a Wichitaw,Ks base Us MIl website. It is good to see we have a newer weapon vs. the law or the anti tank rounds that is a high explosive velocity to match the weapons technology of the enemy in the USSR. It was our technology in the first place. It shows how if we advertise some stuff too much on the net, the enemy can pre-develop it in their labs overseas. I am glad to see our scientists have predeveloped the lethal round in a shoulder fire system. the law makes a quick pop and no horrific blast when it is fired. This is no pussy weapon. It will clear out a platton of troops if aimed right. Horraahh!!!!!!!

Posted by: Max Anderson at January 20, 2008 11:52 PM


hey walter this test sucks man

Posted by: john at December 17, 2007 02:02 PM


hey walter john comment back

Posted by: john at December 4, 2007 02:10 PM


i was in the vetnam war and faught it was a bloodie mess and i lost my son in the war and all ya'll sons of a bitchs aginst americans can kiss your own ass all i have to say is fuck ya'll.

Posted by: jack at December 3, 2007 02:23 PM


i was in war once killed all you bastards haha

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:20 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:19 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:18 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: johnny at December 3, 2007 02:18 PM


As an OR6 British soldier that has experience fighting in both Afghanistan and Iraq alongside Americans, I feel that I am qualified to voice my opinion.

Firstly the development and use of better weapons systems can and does save lives. As long as those weapons systems are used in a conscientious manner by soldiers on the battlefield (which most do).

People are people no matter what race, creed or religion they are. Both the UK and US are now multicultural societies and we have to live with that whether we like it or not. There are bad people in the world and good and you can't usually tell just by looking at them (sometimes you can).

If Thermobaric weapons mean that the airstrike that'll flatten a few houses, potentially killing innocents doesn't have to happen, then use them.

If you wish to kill American or UK civilians and soldiers, or torture foreign innocents to get your way - Stand by MF, we're coming for you!

Posted by: Squaddie at December 3, 2007 07:38 AM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

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Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:47 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

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Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:46 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

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Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:45 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:45 PM


all yall who are aganst americans can kiss my ass. go americans

Posted by: walter at November 29, 2007 02:44 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:44 PM


u all suckers!!!!!! pinoy

Posted by: brian at November 22, 2007 11:25 PM


anyone who says america is evil, and is bent on taking over the world is ignorant. yes we have destructive weapons. yes there are civilian cashualties. im not saying that civilian cashualties are to be expected, but this is a war people, whether you like it or not, and to pretend like we are always going to get the bad guys and save the good guys is foolish. if you know anything about american history, you will know that everytime we enter a country, we aren't tyrants in the land. In kuwait, we helped establish an army that could repel Iraq's attacks after the first gulf war. in venezuela we created antidrug units, completely operated by venezualens. every time there is a natural disaster, we rush to the rescue and save lives. you say america is evil and stupid one day, but plead for us to come to the rescue when a tsunami or earthquake occurs. america is good

Posted by: america at October 3, 2007 11:02 PM


Americans are a dieing breed and the CIA regulated cocaine during the cocaine era and sold it to the American people, u americans prefer drugs being sold to your kids to keep your mutual funds going. I ain't saying i hate americans but u guys elect corrupt presidents. One congresswomen was against the war on Iraq and warned of the consequences but no one listened to her. Those of your presidents that weren't part of the skull and bones secret society were killed. Including JFK who was a good president that actually workd for the American people.

Posted by: abdullah at September 21, 2007 02:29 PM


When did America decide killing civilians was a problem.. was it after we wiped out entire races in North America, cooked 25,000 people alive in their homes in Dresden, or nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? At least we won those wars.

Posted by: J at September 20, 2007 10:12 PM


I'M AMERICAN
SON OF A BITCH EUROPEAN
EUROPEAN IS PIG
DO YOU WANT A CAPPUCCINO???
DO YOU WANT A MAN'S PENIS???
EUROPEAN IS MURDERER
FUCKING E.U.

Posted by: FUCK at September 17, 2007 05:31 AM


Scout, some information from your "brothers in arms" http://www.ivaw.org/faq

Posted by: Mike at September 13, 2007 12:00 PM


Just wanted to say that your days are over americans.
You are all so fucked up by your governemnt that you can't even think for yourselves anymore.

I'll give the opninion of the rest of the world:

YOU ARE LOSER ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION!!!!

Bye =)

Posted by: Michael at September 13, 2007 06:40 AM


Thermobaric weapons are an advance in war technology but they are troubling because of their propensity to kill and maim civilians - like chemical weapons or cluster bombs. If we use weapons that kill civilians indiscriminately aren't we behaving like terrorists? I hope the USMC can develop guidelines for this weapon to keep civilian deaths to an absolute minimum.

Posted by: Bruce at September 11, 2007 01:57 AM


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Posted by: Tomme at September 10, 2007 09:38 AM


For all you assholes in America who don't stand united under the stars and stripes i only have this to say to you. GET THE FUCK OUT!!!! And if you have not earned your right to be an american by fighting for it supporting it by putting your own life on the line i believe you shouldn't have the right to vote, or be in any congressional position in this country. how many members of congress do we have today who have honorably served this country?? and how many have a son, daughter or loved one over seas??? before these assholes critisizes what me and my brothers in arms are doing why don't you earn your right of your freedom of speech. yes this country can fall i do agree with that but it will only fall if the assholes who continually let the enemy now that we don't support our troops. the same thing happend in vietnam. no i wasn't born in those years. but i am here now and yes i have shed my own blood and watched my brothers give there lives in falluja first hand. DID MY BROTHERS GIVE THERE LIVES IN VAIN???? some wack jobs like fred phelps would like to make you believe so. its assholes like this who are a descrase to america. they reap the benefits of this great country with out ever defending it.

Posted by: Scout at September 1, 2007 04:43 PM


Troy how dare you. You would stoop to the enemy's level?
And besides the enemy is a very questionable subject here. Our best bet is to get out. Secure our borders and fix our intelligence. Instead of give it more powers, make it more efficient with the powers it has, and I mean had before this tyrannical bull-crap. I'm an American and I don't want this nation to fall. I want this Administration to fall. And I won't be killing them to get the job done like Troy probably would considering his barbaric comment.

I understand they, the insurgents, are doing anything they can to keep us out of their country so any weapon is valuable to them. They are revolutionaries, look at the definition of insurgents, and we call them terrorists?!! That's why we need to get out BEFORE IT LEAVES A MUSHROOM CLOUD HAHAHAHAHA. Fuck...

Posted by: Stephen Roth at August 27, 2007 02:38 AM


War is HELL! I am a vet so don't sit there and say I don't know what I am talking about. I have seen this weapon in action and know its power. Let me ask this...if the enemy had this do you think they would worry about civilian casualties? No. They would use it to make those casualties. If you are fired upon and have this weapon in your arsenol you bet your sweet ass you will use it.

Posted by: Troy at August 25, 2007 11:15 PM


To all those living outside the USA:

You are correct; America is declining and declining fast and will fall just as Rome fell. Please forgive my fellow Americans for the unthoughtful, rude, and arrogant comments they make for they don't know what they're saying. They're blinded by pride and bloodshed and I'm ashamed they say such things. America is the Constitution and that's it... there are many of us in America trying hard to preserve that. Washington told us not to get into tangling alliances and to trade with everyone... not to go to war, without even declaring war, as we please.

Posted by: Terces at August 24, 2007 02:01 PM


For your country war is the way to hide the real motivation for a invation (steahl oil, for example)
Your president wash your brains... and u think that it's fare destroy a village just in case... it's sad.
I'm afraid because in the future, when water will be a real probel, you will find any excusse to invade countrys like Argentina, Brazil or Chile... and kill us all... and the common people of USA will think that it was right

Posted by: Ismael at August 24, 2007 01:05 PM


USA is almost over as all bully empires always finish. Your leaders lie you into war over and over for financial gain and power.ie Vietnam, Iraq, killing millions. When the violence comes home you are outraged. Dozy! You have over 700 military bases around the world. Do you really believe you need them to protect your "country?" Americans are from Puritan stock, crying in the night at the great forests, afraid of every shadow. It really shows in your history. ie Peoples History of the United States by Howard Zinn

Posted by: Dr.J. Gobbler at August 24, 2007 12:02 PM


That should help with the housing market!

Posted by: Iraq War Vet at August 23, 2007 11:33 AM


OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.

well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!

i feel sorry for all the people who have no heart to think of thoes in suffering! if it was up to be id be superman and smash thy bush face, then thy used my super stregth against you and see how you would feel! bet youd say its not fair! well same way goes! america is a bully henc why so many hate

Posted by: in your face at July 19, 2007 05:16 PM


OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.

well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!

Posted by: Dark Lord at July 19, 2007 04:38 PM


Here's a picture of this type of weapon being used in Lebanon in 2006.
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,677918,00.jpg

Posted by: S at July 5, 2007 05:56 AM


I was reading through this and Christopher Karel brought up a good point about weapons and there morality being debated before deployment but what about the Air Force's new thermobaric bomb. After all that is what the SMAW-NE is based off of. so what do you guys think about the use of a 2000 lb. thermobaric bomb in Afghanistan. This is some thing I feel should also be discussed.

Posted by: Tony E. at February 27, 2007 11:58 AM


Once a war has begun, the only sensible debate is how to win it effectively and with the least bloodshed. This particular BDM is effective; and while one may bemoan collateral losses any pragmatist knows that a war zone is a war zone. Plenty of things detonating out there. I don't quite understand the fervor over this or that particular type of explosion - seems simple. Blow up bad guys. Mk 19 40mm gl pretty destructive too - want to ban that? Stupid.

Posted by: Jeremy at February 15, 2007 02:13 AM


Great weapon and concept!
To all the bleeding heart liberals out there, you fight them there or fight them here! Which one do you want?? Get the Politicians and Media out of there and let the Military do what they do best. KILL!
Things should be censored like they were in WW II. Only let the public know what is necessary. Now, it seems like the Politicians and Media are trying to undermine the good old US of A! What ever happened to the "let's pull together and get the job done" attitude!

Posted by: Neg at February 11, 2007 05:09 PM


If you use the main concept of the warhead but eliminate the launcher/propellant section of the rocket and turn it into a little nasty bomb, how many can be stuffed into a B-52 attack group?
F 'em all. For every nasty little cocksucker that takes up arms against the American forces and gets captured or killed we should identify him by name and then wipe his whole villiage of origin off the face of the map, no matter what country it is in. Then bomb its respective capital as punishment for not preventing it.

Posted by: Chris B at January 31, 2007 02:43 PM


Great weapon to lessen deaths to our troops. Any pill box or house containing combatants is fair game. As to the question of why we are there half way around the world: We are there because if we were not there, they would be here sooner. It is better to make the poor terrorist bastards die for Mohammad and collect their 70 preteen virgins whom they can abuse for eternity, than let the little goat molesters fulfill their fantasy of killing us.

Posted by: Sidney Williams MD at January 27, 2007 09:36 PM


this kind of warhead has its use but civilian casualities MUST be avoided, a shockwave weapon only with limited range and power (programable warhead) could be better.

And if USA wants to win, stop using drugs with the troops like in afganistan and be less happy trigger, your cowboy aproach dont work.

Posted by: buba at January 24, 2007 05:37 PM


as far as the weapon goes great for the corp...we sit here and talk about the morality of using it..ask the guy who lost his legs to the nail filled IED. anybody that has gone to war knows its brutal,bloody and messy we should use whatever resources we have to bring our brothers and sisters home in one piece.

Posted by: mike at January 15, 2007 04:46 PM


Hey, Sgt USMC, are you saying that you have to be willing to kill, or at least help others kill, in order to have an opinion on the morality of killing? Man, what kind of jarhead hooyah crap has the core been feeding you?

This is a seriously cool weapon, both for its' power and for the simplicity of the concept. War would be a serious BLAST(pun intended) if nobody got hurt.

Posted by: Pete at January 14, 2007 07:23 AM


What are we doing in a country halfway around the world? Don't we have enough shit to worry about here? Nice weapon, kill sand niggers.

Posted by: Kevin at January 12, 2007 01:31 AM


Yeah, maybe it's time you all realize the truth. Pacifying a people who have been fighting amongst themselves for THOUSANDS of years is not possible. They will fight because they always have and they don't know what else to do. We are fighting people who would love to come to America and kill our citizens. Funny how we are seen as the problem when the majority of the attacks as of late are against IRAQI CIVILIANS and IRAQI GOVERNMENT WORKERS! When we use this weapon, it is an obvious obstacle to the rapid destruction of this terrible and ridiculous band of thugs. As for "beenthere," being in the brig for 23 days doesn't enhance your credibility, it just shows what type of Marine you were. I've met many like you, you all deserve the brig. We do what we are told to do. We are told to end the insurgency in Iraq. We will do that to the best of our ability. When you try to end an ideology, it lends to ending the live of ideological fanatics. People who do not respect who they fight or know what they truly are doing. What are the insurgents in Iraq doing? We haven't lost enough men in the WHOLE WAR as a bad WEEK in Vietnam! They are merely causes enough strife to keep the news going. In my opinion, change over the power to the Iraqis, let them kill each other, as they have been, and defend against attacks where we need to. Help get Africa out of it's backwardness. But we need to leave Iraq with an idea that we did what we could, that we deposed the dictator and that there was little we coudl do to stop the fanaticism. Simple.

Posted by: IsThere at December 13, 2006 07:52 PM


One should not truly discuss war and the right or wrong of it if he or she doesn't possess the balls to involve one's self in it and gain first hand experience. And as far as what military is better, "If you bleed with me you are my brother" thats all that matters.

Posted by: SGT USMC at October 26, 2006 11:44 PM


It never ceases to amaze me how these post stay sofar from the central question to include everything from: weather or not we should be in Iraq to armageddon to who has the longest basic training? I am suprised no1 has yet worked in a good Bar-B-Q rib recipe. Considering the weapon in question.

The question was: What do u think of the new Urban weapon? I 4 one, love it. Why? Because, once the boots hit the ground, the people wearing them deserve our full support. This includes any innovation that will help them to continue to wear these boots after they have come into contact with those who wish to kill them.

Posted by: tjmosa at October 15, 2006 10:39 PM


Hey KJS:
You brave Israelis' and your lickspittle Kwan jannissaries are going to be in for a lot more than thermobaric weapons. Lets see how you like it.

Posted by: Jim at September 4, 2006 10:09 PM


That's a pretty amazing piece of hardware. Excellent for MOUT Operations. I suppose the US Army will equip it´s personnel with the NE round. I can see great use for it even in special operations. Imagine the firepower available for a SF detachment,and everybody else for that matter, if one could use the NE on the Santa Barbara. I'm European and I got to say this to the US : Keep investigating, keep fighting for you have been the west's spearhead. We in Europe are not aware yet that war is upon us...at least our politicians and human rights intellectuals are not...Keep fighting

Posted by: Maverick at August 12, 2006 05:14 PM


whoever spoke there in big caps.
i didtn read it.

you know the rules and you broke it.

i am sorry, maybe you had something interesting to say, but you broke it.

Posted by: fronten at August 1, 2006 06:45 PM


Let's hope the IDF/IAF uses tons of these in Lebanon.

Posted by: kjs at July 19, 2006 05:32 PM


We invade someone else's country, then get mad because they kill some of us! Amazing! Americans are arrogant, ignorant butchers of the world. Hopefully, someday the same things we have been inflicting on third world people will be inflicted on our people, in the spirit of what goes around, comes around. Imagine a little napalm used on american cities and towns, the way we used it in viet nam, or a 500 pound precision bomb dropped on the ny stock exchange the way we drop them all over villages in Iraq and Afghanistan, or one of the above "novel exposives" used at a football stadium, rather than a building in Iraq. I guess that would be unfair, as only we and the Is-piss jews get to use those weapons.

Posted by: Pauli at July 12, 2006 08:14 PM


JUST A SIGN OF THE TIMES. WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS OF HOW WE KNOW THE WORLD. IN A MATTER OF TIME THIS WORLD AS WE KNOW IT WILL CHANGE BEFORE OUR VERY EYES AND WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.WHETHER PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD OR NOT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY CALL OUT HIS NAME BEFORE THEIR LAST BREATH AND THOSE THAT DON'T WILL BOW AND CONFESS BEFORE HIM AFTER THEIR LAST BREATHS.THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ON THIS EARTH AS LONG AS MEN OR WOMEN TRY TO CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINIES.IF WE THINK THINGS ARE TERRIBLE NOW, WAIT AND SEE JUST HOW BAD THEY ARE GONNA BE IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO. WE ARE ONLY IN THE BIRTH PAINS OF THINGS TO COME. OUR GREAT GRANDFATHERS THOUGHT THINGS WERE BAD DURING THE LAST DEPRESSION, IT WAS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT'S COMING NEXT.WE HAD A GREAT DEAL MORE MORALITY THEN THAN NOW. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH THIS GENERATION OF NO MORALS WHEN THINGS GET BAD. DO YOU THINK THEY'LL JUST GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND FIND A JOB TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES. NO THEY WILL KILL ONE ANOTHER AND EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR OWN FAMILIES. YES IT'S GONNA GET THAT BAD. GOD HELP US. WE HAVE HAD THIS COMING FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW. WHAT WE HAVE SOWN WE ARE ABOUT REAP.

Posted by: LUCIUS R. JORDAN at July 12, 2006 07:34 AM


Either fight the damned war or don't. Whether we blow up countless civilians or not, they're going to hate us. Screw 'em. Our guys are sent there to do a job & tying their hands & wringing our own hands about how they're doing their job & whether they're killing people or hurting their feelings isn't going to help them do their job & win this stupid war & come home. Human rights advocates should not figure into a war. It's kill or be killed.

Posted by: skwg at July 11, 2006 04:44 PM


Weapons of war cannot be seperated from the process of war, which is a political act carried out by violent means. And the level and technique of force must be tempered against the desired political outcome.
In other words, if you're chasing Osama into a cave, feel free to blow up the whole mountain.
If you're going through a town, be discreet in who and what you blow away. Then you must discipline anybody who deliberately goes out of his or her way to kill anything that moves.
Again - back to Clauswitz. War is conducted to achieve a series political and economic goals. Never forget that no matter how many people you kill, they will STILL never come love and admire you for it. Or fully cooperate with you.


Posted by: James AF Compton at July 11, 2006 02:49 PM


I get so tickled and sick all at the same time, watching us ham-string ourselves when it comes to fighting war... enemies that will kill us - both civilians and military personel, wholesale and by any means possible. It is nearly impossible to win a war, fighting with one hand tied behind your back and the other one with a mitten on. I wish both Marines and Army troops had this new thermobaric LAWS and hopefully a thermobaric round for the M203 and similar 40mm grenade launchers will be out soon, if not already. Kill the enemy and destroy his/her will to fight is the only way to victory, and weapons like the thermobaric weapons, with both the psychological and physical effects are the kinds of weapons needed to achieve this.

JMHO!

Posted by: Mark B. at June 9, 2006 03:55 PM


Great new tool!

Posted by: pvtpile at February 16, 2006 04:37 PM


JUST SEARCH IN YAHOO: BUSH MIND CONTROL SCANDAL.
BEST, Al

Posted by: Al Rovati at February 4, 2006 04:27 AM


War is inhumane. What else is it. Are you going to ban war because it's inhumane. Would be nice, but the world doens't work that way. I call the use of these rockets, very humane. They save the lives of my fellow Marines. A real weapon of philanthropy, in my opinion. lol

Posted by: Chris G. at January 9, 2006 12:30 PM


Can't wait 'till everybody has one of these to hunt squirrels with.

Posted by: RL Gumm at January 7, 2006 06:08 PM


this weapon is awesome. i want one.
i think the employment of the weapon in falluja is appropriate, strategic, effective. seriously, i want one.

Posted by: Will Smith at January 5, 2006 05:35 AM


Awesome!! Can you post an NSN and line number so we can order a bunch for our upcoming deployment? Thanks!

Posted by: Owen Powell at December 29, 2005 03:10 PM


...Maybe it's just that I've had a bad day and some of the comments I've seen on this "blog," posing for intelligent conversation, but I've reached the decision that I fully endorse the use of this man-portable FAE on fundamentalist DUMNS**TS such as some of the morons posting, here.

That is all-

...Mere mortals.

Posted by: Johny the Homicidal Maniac at December 18, 2005 08:57 PM


I'm just wondering how soon we the American people are going to be seeing these weapons being used upon US, by "our" government, in their ongoing war against "political incorrectness". As in "Take that, you **** Christians, for being so **** intolerant!" The leadership of both major parties is committed to this diabolical madness. The world is a vast lunatic asylum being run by its worst inmates. God help us all.

Posted by: Dave at December 9, 2005 01:13 PM


War is Hell, Patton said make the B. die for his country..... , as a Marine combet Viet- vet. the French can't fight thier way out of a paper bag ,, no wonder the French lost all it's fights , they sit in a fort, and get there ASS BEAT , that's history. I Trained with the Legion , THEY are bunch of Drunks , and Missfits that EURO, does not want. As for Viet Nam the CFR - (one-Worlders) that control the World , gave away vietnam. WAKE UP GUYS ,, WE HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER A LONG TIME AGO. They are not going to tell us. I say Learn To speak China , as that is the Military that will be called in to control the next problem , better yet the amerika sheeple will demand it . Think I'am wrong , the people in New Orleans proved it , The government must save me . THATS your god , who you call in trouble is your god... as for our current Military It's too small to save amerika in a Real fight.. and we have some good men in our military , but fact is its too small, and high Tect. is not going to save us, our high schools no longer teach rifle. Protect our 2nd adment. rights. if we still have any men left?????????????????????????????????????/

Posted by: Will at December 7, 2005 08:55 PM


This new weapon is just another toy for the death slinging fools in Washington. War is Money, we spend more on defense and war and death machines than the entire world put together. We should turn killing into theme parks. Seems to be what we do best, kill kill kill. If only we could kill more...

Posted by: KillEmAll at December 6, 2005 02:18 PM


And, gawdam, I just can't pass up responding to Voltron who gets his nick from his fondness for sticking his finger into empty light sockets. A history course might do you some good as well. This fair America, this beacon of liberty to the world, would not be the United States of America were it not for the French. Had they not come here and helped out, you would be a Brit. LaFayette's help is downplayed by our current propagandists but we couldntna dun it widout 'em, ol' buddy. So have a little more respect for folks that you owe your 'free' ass to. merci. And just for you knee jerkers who are for sending our kids to kill and be killed, brutalize and be brutalized, in the name of political corruption, and have never bothered to enlist yourselves, I got 4 looonnng years in the crotch (including 23 days in the CherryPoint brig, my fondest memory). Your turn.

Posted by: beenthere at December 2, 2005 01:25 PM


Hey Willy

You sound way more like a private than a "lieutenant". There ain't no 'democ' being born there. At this time, there's no democ here. There's just poor saps like you on the low end of the IQ curve who suck down everything the bushs and the cheneys say because you have no ability whatsoever in critical thinking and have obviously never read a word of history. These guys are lying right in your face and don't even care enough to build a good story cuz they know their base hasn't got the brains to see through glass much less their crappy stories. Bush the older put Saddam in power in the first place, you idiot. We (our elite, our masters) don't give give a rat's ass about freedom and democ. Money. The Golden Rule: He who has the gold rules. It ain't us, homey. Saddam woulda shot bin Laden faster you'd shit your pants if you ever actually got shot at. There isn't any al-Q/Iraq connection. We're obviously not there to keep the price of oil down! Why are we there? Whose enemy is a functional Iraq and Iran really? Who has the money and influence to buy our government reps into selling the heads of our kids so they don't have to spend their own? Who has deliberately attacked a US Navy vessel, killed dozens of US sailors and never even been slapped on the wrist for it? You figure it out asshole. Learn your world a little, learn a little history and even you may begin to see that your job as an American is simply to give everything you've got to support the American aristocracy(s), whoever that may be. The only governments that American intervention has ever successfully set up are military dictatorships. If you ever DO read any history, you may discover that the 'free' election that put Hitler in power was very similar to the 'free' election that put the bush crew in power including lots of conservatives. And, while you're celebrating Pearl Harbor this 07Dec, you may want to confirm that on 06Jun1941, that scumbag Roosevelt cut off all oil shipments to Japan from ANYWHERE knowing they would be forced to respond to this act of war. We would be nuking people without warning within 15 minutes if that were done to us. The world ain't quite what your quaint little grammar school propaganda lessons have you so obviously believing. There IS evil in this world, willy, but it keeps its head hidden behind ignorance such as yours. Grow up and get some knowledge before you pour forth with the regurgitated shit those assholes are feeding you.

Posted by: beenthere at December 2, 2005 12:33 PM


For sale:

One French issued Military Rifle.
Never fired
Only dropped once

please ask for Sir Ender Mon Key

Posted by: Voltron at December 1, 2005 02:30 PM


Firstly The Best are the French foreign legion,We have 89 differnt Nationalities in our Legion,Our Assualt course in France takes our MEN three hours thirty minutes to complete ,recently a marine contingent came down to train ,Why did it take them ten hours ,and why could they not speak our language ,when every Legionaire can speak at leats 3 ..they wre too busy trying to ram beer cans up each others asses ,........ PRICLEESS ........

Posted by: Agitant Chef , Serge Du Pont at December 1, 2005 10:06 AM


I know lets all bitch about whos got the best marines,how about we get real and realise all of us troops are puting our lives on the line,Its ordinary Americans ,British, and dare I say iraquis ,who are dying ,the more we scrabble amongst each other,the more the Big mouthed puppets in politics get away with murder, our murder ,follow orders ,dont ask why ,pull the trigger be ready to die, For What ? For Who ? ,killing a human with your weapon will put scar on your soul for all time ,war or no war ,its murder and theyre feeding on it like reptiles theres nothing great when your best mate has a ak47 round through the kneck and you look at your arm and your so surprised that its not there anymore !, For What ? FOR WHO ? ,Proffit ,for the bush family, for the Bin Ladens , for the Blairs , THEY GET RICH ,WE DIE ,thats not freedom ,thats a system of horror and evil perpertrated to keep those idiots rich ,and we follow their bent words, WAR ON TERROR ,AL QUEDA ,BLAH BLAH BLAH ...there is no AL QUEDA they've invented it ,another dark enemy for us to kill at all cost....theres no need for any of this ,I ATOR AWAKE MENS SOULS TO SEE THROUGH THIS VILE DECEPTION,NO MORE WAR WE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH.
We are being decieved lied to and shafted by these HORRIBLE FILTHY RICH BEASTS ,we are FODDER to them ,be they red or blue ,left or right ,they have their secret meetings to decide wich of us is next to die ,FOR THEIR SPECIAL INTRESTS ...ITS SIMPLE >>>>>WAKE UP,............ATOR

Posted by: TAROT at December 1, 2005 09:54 AM


Human Rights Watch,Their Annual report summing up the year 2001 in the US, was a 2 paragraph piece about the 'horrors' of the treatment of homosexuals, lesbians,bisexuals and transgenders in American High schools. Their summation was that these 'poor souls', (a definite fraction of a minority of the population) would be caused to "drop out of school,sink into depression or even attempt suicide."
Not one word about the several thousands who, innocently going about their business, had jets flown up their butts. The lucky ones died right away....the rest? Well, you know all about them. So ask ME what I care about Human Rights Watch!
W. Daniel
'The Lieutenant'

Posted by: Bill Daniel at November 30, 2005 10:42 PM


OH, MY ACHING BUTT!!!!!
Has everyone forgotten the simple reason for the start of this post?!
Do we belong in Iraq? Who the hell knows? Who really cares?!
Should we STAY in Iraq? Not one MICROSECOND longer than we need to!!
Is democracy worth fighting for? Every last male member of my ancestors believed so, and served, even when there was nobody to be fighting.
SHOULD we make nice and let everyone in the world know what we have in our war chest? Hell. NO!!
(All of you morons that believe otherwise need to be spanked and deported to someplace that you can't do any harm. France, maybe? They never have paid any of their war debt to us and hate us,too. Go figure)
I saw combat in the Navy in Vietnam. You can bet your bottom dollar that NO Iraqi (incidentally-they prefer to be called Persians) wants the US out of there. Yes, we have taken casualties, but don't DARE compare this to Vietnam! What we are seeing here is a NEW COUNTRY being born! Anyone who thinks that it will be short or easy is deluding themselves. We need to 'stay the course'. And every democrocracy based country should be over there, helping a new democracy to be born. If we pull out now, we might as well re-arm every mothers son that wants it and let the country sink into anarchy. And "USA" will be a curse word worse than shah,ayatollah,dictator or even Hussein.Because so far, WE and our allies are the only hope these people have of having a future and a decent country. If the current system is corrupt, then we need to help the people get it right until it IS right.I'm sorry as hell about my comrades that have fallen in a just cause. I nearly bought the farm myself a couple of times and am glad to have the p-hearts. But before you go blaming President Bush for what's happening now....cast your memory back to Mr. Clinton's actions over there while HE was in office! So, you're entitled to whatever opinion you have; just please TRY to be educated about it!
Come to think about it.....let's let ALL the anti-war, peacemongers and whoever else wants to; let THEM go over there and say "Pretty please, Mr. I hate anyone-non-muslim, give PEACE A CHANCE."
Go ahead, Cindy, I dare you.
W. Daniel
'The Lieutenant'
PS....Frankly, I WANT the 'bad guys' to soil their britches when they know that WE care to send 'the very best'

Posted by: Bill Daniel at November 30, 2005 10:11 PM


As for the British losing 100 vs. our 2000 it's simple... UK forces are deployed in Basra, shi'ite territory that is generally peaceful compared to where most of the US forces are (central Iraq, dominated by Sunnis). Also, you contribute what, 8,000 men? Try 140,000 from the USA... If you compare precentages 1.4% killed for USA, vs. 1.2% killed for UK, the rates are quite comparable.

Posted by: Joe at November 30, 2005 08:05 PM


Lovely weapon !great weapon ? ,we(the British ,the Iraquis ,the Americans.etc...),we die, they get rich ,the arms deales who promote this site ,Wake up you fools ,its about proffit for SPECIAL INTRESTS ,their intrests are proffit ours is stayin alive,,,WAKE UP AND DISOBEY,put your guns down,all go home its a bad idea theres nothing great about it,its stupid ,Why isnt Bush out there ,Tony Blair ,firstly they are cowards ,secondly ,they are operateing on behalf of SPECIAL INTRESTS The more rounds you fire ,the more bombs you drop,the richer those SPECIAL INTRESTS get,and those with no SPECIAL INTRESTS just die like fodder..WAKE UP BE TRULY BRAVE,SEE THROUGH THE SCAM..............ATOR

Posted by: ATOR at November 30, 2005 01:05 PM


Well, first of all "tom"...the difference between the time spent in U.S. Marine training and your "royal commando" training is we are smarter and know how to get the job done without taking breaks for tea and crumpets.
And yes, you still owe us for saving your little island countrys' skin during the "Big One",So if you think it's all up to your country to put a end to any war or conflict...WW III is looming over the horizon...so,pick your side...now.

Posted by: Rome at November 30, 2005 10:36 AM


as a Royal Marine RSM myself i feel that i must point out to you your mistaken belief of the U.S armed forces being the superior. I have myself worked with on many occasions U.S marines on both operations as well as in training excercise, and must say that although their hearts seemed to be in the job, they quite simply lacked all but the basic forms of military training. how long is U.S marine training? 10 weeks if that. how long does a basic entry recruit take to earn the flash of Royal Marine Commando? 36 weeks. the longest infantry training in the world. The US can talk all it wants on how it has saved our little island country all it likes, and i am of course grateful for your contributions, but lets bare in mind that what we do and have done for you is more than enough repayment. the amount of US troops that have broken under fire and needed OUR help in rescueing your colonial backsides still amazes me. and lets not forget that without our forces in Iraq who would your troops have to shoot at? friendly fire indeed. well good luck to you on winning this war, i cant see us staying around for too long after losing oh 100 troops since the end of the war. how many have you lost? 2000? again the inferior training. and again the stubborn refusal to realise that nobody wants you in that country. i hope that in your next war you intend to be prepared for it.

Posted by: tom at November 30, 2005 08:07 AM


"There is a town, a town with wealth, propsperity, and strong law enforcement. One day the police just leave. Before long crime is ramppent, people fight amongst one another, chaos. Soon mafia groups start fighting each other for dominence. After awhile, one group takes the took and creates it's own law in forcement. One that takes bribes and makes people pay for 'protection'. Eventually, the town becomes a threat to other towns."

It must also be considered that the "criminal organisation" that has taken over this town could also be called a government. Change extortion to taxes, enforcers to police officers. For example, the English could consider the United States to be rebeling provinces to this day. It is human nature to attempt to set up some form of orginization.

-|Harper|-

Posted by: Harper at November 30, 2005 01:45 AM


I agree with jeff and the patriot, War is hell, it always has been. However you cannot judge morality in war. I submit to you readers an example.

There is a town, a town with wealth, propsperity, and strong law enforcement. One day the police just leave. Before long crime is ramppent, people fight amongst one another, chaos. Soon mafia groups start fighting each other for dominence. After awhile, one group takes the took and creates it's own law in forcement. One that takes bribes and makes people pay for 'protection'. Eventually, the town becomes a threat to other towns.

Moral of this story: Civilation cannot exist without law whether it be just or unjust. The reason we should support the war. Who are we, Americans to deny anyone their freedom. It's our trademark.

Please think long and hard on this comment.

Posted by: Ryan Hebert at November 29, 2005 02:23 PM


Hey guys,
I think one thing we forget about and even I was blind to the fact when I was their, is that they still use old school weapons. Alot of the Islamic nutcases cant afford the new technology and still use stuff from the cold war erra, the APM's are a bitch and you cant blame EOD for not doing their job. These guys clear out a raod and then low and behold someone places these devices after the fact. My uncle said in Viet Nam, they would carpet bomb to form new roads to help ensure that their was no devices like this for the troops.( If anyone could elaborate on that) please do. Our upgrade in firepower will always rain suppreme, but lets not forget that our Russian friends have had weapons like this prior to us. The good thing about Russia is that they do not allow the pesty press around when they do a mission. Did you ever wonder why our troops are under the gun so much? I am ok with the media covering events such as the war, but I do not think the media should have a place in the front lines or be able to expose tactics that our men & wemon use in combat. The CIA and NSA can use pictures from tapes to pinpoint a location, what makes us think that these terrorist cant do the same? We as the United States have to realize that we are fighting a people who have always know war, they are experts in this area. I am not saying anything negative about the US, please understand this. I would kinda compair it to this, say the US went to war against the Korean Rock Marines, I hate to admit it, but we would be taken out very quickley going against these people in that kind of tarain. Our spec ops are the breath of our operations right now, thier intel helps us plan our (what to do) sometimes our troops overlook the simplistics of combat and as to what the enemy uses against us. Does anyone recall the neutron bomb? this would have been awsome to use when we first went into Afganistan. But, do to our media and tree huggers it became a (noway). This post is not bias to weather the war is good or not, rather I am asking the reader to look at some of the points to see if you may agree about what is being said.

Posted by: Dennis at November 29, 2005 12:40 PM


In light of the type of urban warfare the Marines are subject to in Iraq,This type of weapon is necessary to limit the unecessary U.S. casualties such conflicts can produce.
It only stands to reason that most of the "good" Iraqi people are aware of who the insurgents are...So it's in thier best interests to either turn them in or distance themselves from thier strongholds when this type of weapon is unleashed.


SEMPER FI

Posted by: JEROME EDGE at November 29, 2005 06:46 AM


Once again I find myself reading these posts and all I hear is people bashing on the military. If you have not been in are in or ever going to join. Then Shut up cause you have no room to talk I dont car how smart you think you are how much school mommy and daddy paid for.. The fact remains you are not over there you are here safe and sound in your little beds at night.

While men and wemen are being killed and sleeping in the cold on the ground in sand not knowing if the next day will be their last. And how do you treat them like shit. If any one on this page is uncivilized it you for not carring enough about the people who protect this country "that means you too " then. Then you are even more uncivilized then yyou think.. Ohh And by the way I was over there 2 times so I do have room to talk. I was and infintry man so yes any thing we Can get will help us even more than you know.

U.S.M.C Freak 2/2

Posted by: The Freak at November 29, 2005 03:15 AM


Asking ourselves if a weapon is not fit for use because of its destructive capability is silly. The very concept of placing a moral compass on a weapon is unfair for the soldiers that are employing them. if the enemy has these weapons they would use them with great public fanfare. As for the human rights activist, well they are not qualified to pass moral judgments on the war or the weapons that are employed, they are not the ones that are getting shot at, ambushed and attacked. The weapon that is the most effective for our soldiers should always be available and deployed with our moral blessing, after all, it would be immoral to deploy our men and women into action without the weapons that will protect them.

Posted by: louis at November 28, 2005 06:26 PM


Bism Alalh Alrahman alraheem
Inshallah the weapon you have discovered will be employed against the very creatuers of it"s like. the life of many muslim freedom fighters rely on istishhad this new modified wepon you speak of is barbaric in nature. its ineffective against the Freddom fighters of Allah. (id say "smoke them out") which i indeed did yesterdsay. i blinded the kuffar on dirt bikes! they saw nothing of smaw. (loQ) laughing out quietly). therfore however and moreover its imperative to calculate the reprucssions of this new fangled device. Will it protect Marine Corps lifes? good questions are hard to answer this is a fact of life? No you shall see that the American secret service whom quetioned me in Amman, jordan in the eighties had no idea of my importance in the arab muslim world. As of today nobody realy knows what the major deal is. The PAlestinains Specail forces MArine corps of Jerusalem are not afraid of a bombs(weapons) that levels the entire structures ontop of is peacful freedom fighter (fadayeen)occupants. But what if the fadayeen of Allah were the ones who possessed even a more feared weapon then the ones you have in your arsenal(Typical average middle of the road marine corps), would you contemplate using your devices? now that'the real delima, dont you thjink? I have reason to believe that our fadayeen of Allah have developed a weapon capable of obliterating entrie battalions and divisions in a split second and leaving no know traces for anyone to see! strange as it may seem the New deployabl;e versatile Nimir althanee is in existence for some time now developed by the famous abid alkalam shiek bin abid aljabar.
I know for certain that i will see the day that the idgenous Palestinian people of Palestine is returned to the Plaestinian peopel soon. with or without U.S. MArines help.

Posted by: Abid Allah at November 28, 2005 03:50 PM



New National Motto/Car Magnet


Support our troops, Not our president..


yep..thats the real truth

Posted by: FUCK BUSH at November 28, 2005 01:49 PM


While it is smart to try to avoid collateral damage, it must never be the go/no-go decision. The achievement of the military objective must rule.

Posted by: Ed Poinsett at November 28, 2005 10:22 AM


As a generalization, I do not believe that "morality" should play any part in the prosecution of war. We, as a species, have allowed ourselves to become desensitized to the horror of war. We believe that there is such a thing as a "clean war". There isn't. There will always be casualties, civilian and military. We must remember that war is not a tool, it is a great and horrible beast that is capable of acts of both good and evil, not to let loose lightly. However, when it is released, there must be no muzzle. No limit on weapons, tactics, or geographic boundaries. Total war or No war. In this way we can make war so horrible to contemplate that only the truly insane would dare try to use it as a tool.
-|Harper|-

Posted by: Harper at November 28, 2005 01:49 AM


Well said Jeff.

Posted by: Dennis at November 26, 2005 04:13 PM


Anyone ever stop and think this is just a big misunderstanding? They don't seem to understand that we can kick their asses at will if we really wanted too, and we don't understand that they're just to stupid to value human life. I myself believe that it is time to bring those kids home, and don't think we should still be over there.

Biggest problems are the media and negative PR, and not being able to tell just who is the enemy. With the bad PR and media, it is almost impossible to do what needs to be done.
Most of the troops stationed over there are just doing their duty and want to come home. They value their lives where the enemy does not.
When clearing a building you are supposed to give em a chance to give up, and if they won't come out... well they weren't friendly anyways and deserve whats coming to them. I don't care if its a grenade,RPG, a SMAW-NE or converting the building to a parking lot with an APC or Tank. If it means leaving the engagement on your own two feet and going home alive you did the right thing.

Lets give these kids the tools they need to make it home safe!

Posted by: Jeff at November 25, 2005 05:22 PM


Patriot,

Awsome post! very well put. I agree with you 100%. Just remeber, when Bush was told about 9/11 he waited for a few minutes before he left so he wouldnt get the children all upset. But as we know the liberal left would say differant. Ya know, it was just like the tax cuts he first put up before congress. The funniest thing was when the Dems found out his plan came from non other than the greatest Dem in the world! Yup JFK. It was entertaining to watch the dems scramble around after they found this out, they even went as far as haveing the murderer himself (Ed-I'll have another-Kennedy) to shoot down his own family. When the Clintons left office and vandilized AF1 it was a disgrace to the office held. Yeah, getting a BJ in the oval office must be nice, why not teach our 4th gradders the roll of a presidant. By the way dems, your party is the reason why morality is deminishing in the US.God forbid if you are a hetro married couple who want to raise your children with strong morales, insted of reading Pug, in the 2nd grade you get Jim & Tom telling the kids its ok to touch each other. Its a sick demented world as it is. The left just cant be bothered with true diversity. They scream diversity but then they slamm anyone who has a beleif in God and claim that the religous people are a big problem. I am glad that I have a president who is not affraid to stand on his beleif, its called integrity, he has not swayed to the likes of the people and stayed the coarse he set out to do. Clintons on the other hand, well, although I may not agree with every little thing Bush does, am happy to have him as a leader and hope his brother Jeb gets into office to keep the Bush family running things. That statement oughta piss off o few of you high school kids on here. LOL. Have a good day and remember, when the feminest say that the only bush they trust is their own, chances are you may find a few (boots) in there LOL, for those who dont know what that means, wait til your at least in your 20's then you will know, then again your social studies techer may explain it to you during you reccess at school.

Posted by: Dennis at November 25, 2005 01:46 PM


Let's stop talking about it and get into the hands of the Marines who need it now.

Posted by: G. Filippone at November 25, 2005 01:32 PM



"Can we have some of these weapons for the Brits please?"

No. As a matter of policy, the British Army does not and will not deploy thermobaric weapons.
If you want them to change, start lobbying your MP to put pressure on the MoD.

Posted by: David Hambling at November 25, 2005 07:55 AM


Well... There are so many posts on this thread that I doubt mine will get read very much. That really doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that people that speak about things that they know nothing about. I'm not talking about the ones that read the paper and make inferences... I'm talking about the people that meet at the diner on the corner and spread CRAP. They never read a paper and never watch the news... but ask them about current events... and they're an expert. How? Well my professor said... or BUBBA said.

Stop listening to your peers!!!! Start getting your news from different sources. Read, read, read some more. Watch Fox News, Watch CNN, Watch MSNBC, I don't really care... Just figure it out for yourself. Why?

I'm tired of hearing dumb redneck comments about how Bush is a traitor... and how he's an OIL MAN and That's why HE started the war. Kerry wouldn't have put us in this situation. Ehh... and by the liberal rhetoric first 5 months after Bush's re-election, We should be in total CHAOS by now, in a total recession. In fact (barring the hurricane victems) the us has one of the best employment rates it's ever had.
Everyone looks at Bush and sees a dumbass. I'll agree that he's not the best speaker. He's not the best Ad Libber. But I do say he makes decisions that are in the best interest of the U.S.
Disagree? Name one decision that he has made so far that wasn't in the best interest of the U.S. When you do so... Make sure it isn't political rhetoric. Yes... I goad you... Anti-Bush people. Speak your mind... but when you do so, do not use cheap shots like the fact that he's: 1. a poor speaker.(sad but true) 2. Not the most agile or witty person. (also sad) 3. Is an OIL man from an oil family*(I will explain below) 4. Lied or manipulated evidence in order to go to war.

Bush is actually an intelligent person or he wouldn't be where he is today. The accusations that he's perpetrating a war for personal gain is a fallacy. How do I knkow this? There are so many "Watchdog" organisations out there that hate him that, by now, should have hard proof/evidence that he is benifiting from the war.

If you think he's manipulated evidence to go to war... think about congress. Look at the voting record of those that you champion now. Those that are calling for a "pull-out" of Iraq Voted for it at the time.
It's easy to be an "Arm-chair Quarterback" or a Coach that makes a tough decision as long as you think you're gonna win easy. If you think your job is on the line... you might play a little more conservatively... unless you truly know what you are doing is right.
The decision to send troops that you command into battle can never be taken lightly. It warms my heart to know that people care enough to protest the war... Because soldiers are dying. My problem is with those that protest the war because it is the decision that Bush made.
If you had voted for JOHN KERRY, you'd be in the same position. He... and every other liberal other than the few "kneejerk's, voted for the war when the vote came up. In fact... Kerry at one point said "If you think Saddam Hussein doesn't have WMD then you shouldn't vote for me".
So, now, he's against the war. The Clintons never say anything... Why? Hillary has her sights on the 2008 elections... and if she wins or loses... Good old "slick willy" is gonna go for Kofi(not sure of the spelling) Anon's position. They can't stand to rule the U.S. for 8 years... they want to rule the world.
Now.... Criticize Bush intelligently... but back up your data with facts. You know... sources... The stuff you didn't hear from your brother's uncle's cousin's, baby's daddy's, momma's, best friends grandpa. Show me the money!!! I know I say a lot without backing it up... but he's the incumbent president and he's had a few grenades lobbed at him already...

I SAY DO YOUR WORST.... PROVE HE'S A BBBBAAAAADDDD PRESIDENT. PROVE THAT HE TRICKED CONGRESS INTO GOING TO WAR. Fuc it... prove anything. Good luck and best wishes!

Posted by: Patriot at November 25, 2005 03:16 AM


lilspitfire,

Nice post you have there. I had the privlage of a joint training exe. with the BRM @ Camp LeJeune NC back in 1996. Your right, you guys have always been thier, seems like your the only other backup out there worth anything besides Israel. I do see Japan becomeing closer. Whats your take on that? I dont know what you may hear over there but I know that Japan would be a great addition to the family. I have always admired the SAS, very high speed and when it comes to fu#*ups, there realy isnt any, and the BRM's can hold thier liquore very well LOL. I got to know a marksman pretty good from the BRM while they were training with us. The sniper skills these guys have are very impressive. I know I shoot at the hip with alot of my posts and most of them are just out of fun due to the anger it causes the kids on here but hell, we all want the same thing when it comes down to it. Well have a good one and know that the US Marines hold you guys in high honors along our side, God bless

Posted by: Dennis at November 24, 2005 10:01 PM


Can we have some of these weapons for the Brits please? Maybe the Marines could offer our SAS boys some spare ones, cause I bet they'd love to get their hands on this weapon. Anything shiny and new will definitely do!

There's only two countries in the world that get off their butts when the s*** hits the fan and does something about it. Why that's none other than the USA & Britain. I am right you know. We stick together. Always have and always will do because we got that strong connection.

Where would everyone be right now if it wasn't for our troops putting their lives on the line to give someone else the chance to have these things that we in the Western world take for granted..Freedom, Democracy & Liberty. Yes that's right. We take that for granted.There's people out there in the world that don't have the same luxuries as we do.

What did we have recently? Veteran's Day/Armistice Day/Poppy Day. Think about all those people who sacrificed their lives in so many wars and campaigns so that we could be able to do what we want to do. And that's what is happening right now. Troops sacrificing their lives for us.

I'm proud to be a Brit. I would rather stand up and fight than sit with my head between my knees and kiss my a** goodbye thankyou very much! And yes I am a female too so it makes it more relevant to me. I was brought up learning about my country's history and how we've been around for centuries and fought lots of wars. I am proud of that. That's the British Empire..And I am thankful that someone right now is out there defending my rights,freedom and liberty. Thankyou so very much!

Another thing...I would rather we Brits stood alongside the US if anything did happen, at least I'd know who's protecting our backs than alot of nations who stab you in the back when you turned around. Yes that's right there are countries in the Western world who'd do that just to save their own lives.

So can we have some of those AWESOME weapons too? I'm sure we could accommodate the US Marine Corps. :0) Always Faithful!

Thanks guys you are doing one great job out there. Keep up the good work..keep winning!

lilspitfire

Posted by: lilspitfire at November 24, 2005 04:49 PM


Well if you ask me, the whole idea of using the SMAW-NE is a great idea, yea you more than likely will cause some serious harm or even kill innocents, but those are just two components/ facts about war, and have always been. Besides, one more thing about war that has always been there, and in the civilian world, that being risking the few for the many, somethin H.R.A's dont understand, they are under the impression, that everyone deserves to live, no matter the crime, until that kind of situation happens to them, and they lose a loved one, then they say "kill them" they are nothing but hypocrites if you ask me. Where in the military, when we lose one of our own, no mater what service, affects us personally, because we are all one big family, and like with any family, when you mess with one, you mess with the rest, and when you do, stand by for an ass kicking. As I have previously stated, in my personal oponion, the use of the SMAW-NE is a great idea.

Schmidt,Jonathan,E.
LCPL / USMC

Posted by: Lcpl Schmidt J E at November 24, 2005 02:34 PM


Loveyourenemy & youcantseeme,

Ya know, I looked up the defanition for dumbass and guess what? Your names were right their! A couple of kids, oh well whatcha gonna do.(The Bush admin brought us 911) Ok, and did you know Bush is at fault due to my pen running out of ink? everyone has an asshole therefor we all have________ (fill in the blank.)Maybe you 2 are right in what you say. Maybe you are realy following everything that is going on. Maybe you have a relative that is being slaughterd by the US. I do not know........ I agree on one thing that you both say however,(what goes around comes around) Lets take the US completely out of the picture. Say we do leave Iraq, say we stop paying the UN, say we close off all of our import/exports to all the countries. Say we use our own fuel and oil or another source and stay out of everyones land. Now, what then will happen when jihad takes over in France, UK, Africa ect? We should stay out of it and let them defend therselves. We should not contribute money to feed other countries and we should make every Country pay us back for the Aids reasearch we have supplied. We should do away with the (seven bridges)policy we have. If you dont know what that is, well, research it, you 2 seem to know all anyway. When a new Saddam pop's up we should rejoice when he uses biologial weapons on innocent people, but stay away and let the people of that nation deal with it on there own. I think the US should be more like Afganistan, if our wemon question us, they should be bitch slapped, if they cheat on us, a public execution is in demand. Wemon should be clothed, head to toe, and if not mark them as a harlot by carving things on their bodies! We should have professional rapeist like Odae, we in the US know that that will work on anyone who dissagrees with Bush. We should put into law that when you get caught stealing, we should put a tire around your body and light you up in the middle of the street, one of you is in Africa, tell me this does not happen and I will be glad to give you the site where this form of public punishment is. Lets also allow our men who have HIV to have sex with a 4 year old girl, we in the US know that thats the cure for aids. Do you assholes see where I am going with this? Fortionatly for you we are involved, and while the US alone cannot end any of this the world needs a country with enough balls to say (Hey, thats not right) and ask the UN who we pay to get the rest of the world on the right path. You guys fail to mention the timelines that the UN gave Saddam during the investigation. You fail to compair your so called facts with other facts that even things out. This is called bias, please look up that word and try to use it in a sentance. And last, if you realy wanna tell me about how dumb I am and how I have no heart or whatever, stand in front of a mirror, I bet if ya do that the asshole one the other side would love to talk about you feelings. Have a wonderfull Thanksgiving.( I am thankfull for all the idiots who keep me entertained and the highschool kids who visit this site with their vast knowlage of the US. Amen)

Posted by: Dennis at November 24, 2005 01:22 PM


hurray !!!
i have read all the comments i can from a (bloody) lot of insanely non-realistict-menopsyhic-revolutionaries on this site and never before, have i seen so much hatered and fustration from people resident in "The land of the FREE".
The important thing u "nuke troting" americans should rememder is what goes around comes around.
Believe it or not the gorvernment of the united states recriuted and trained most of us to do what they now call TERRORISM,then it was simple esspionage and S&D missions.
Am in Africa right now and its a perfectly good place to view the end of the WORLD from...your world that is...huh huh ha ha ha aha ha. fall off strangers.

Posted by: ucant seeme at November 24, 2005 10:01 AM


I suggest we create a division, lets call it the Sheehan division. We will send these crack troops in to dangerous areas to use the time-tested tactics of dialogue and appeasement to try to defeat America's enemies without a shot being fired. If the Neville Chamberlain style attack fails, the hippies can break out the ultimate weapon: Flower Power.

What are all you pinko hippy peaceniks doing reading www.defensetech.org? Shouldn't you be off dining with dictators or snuggling with suicide-bombers? Thugs can only be dealt with in one way: superior firepower combined with the will to use it. No other way has ever worked, and if you ever read a real history book, you would know it.

Unfortunately, I doubt the Pentagon will ever come out swinging in relation to a new weapons system, or indeed anything designed to actually *gasp* kill people or break things. Indeed, every spokesman for the Armed Forces seems to shy away from the idea that we actually kill anybody, and to try to obfuscate the fact that we are wildly succeeding in killing terrorists.

How about we stop saddling our soldiers with rules of engagement so strict that a terrorist must have already detonated his car bomb before he can be fired upon? How about we stop prosecuting our guys for any minor accident, and start pinning medals on them for killing these terrorist thugs?

Trying to evade the truth in these matters makes us look weak-willed and squeamish. Come out and say it. This is a great weapon, that will be used to send as many Islamofascists to their 70 virgins in paradise as quickly as possible. The more brutal and painful, the more they can feel that they earned it. Praise the Lord and pass the SMAW-NE!

Posted by: PubliusJunior at November 24, 2005 04:36 AM


To all the soldiers: thank you, from a mom in Oklahoma, and a beautiful 9 year old girl who just might get to be an adult in a country of freedom thanks to your efforts.

I know the mainstream media has become an ad-hoc governing-propaganda-program run by what amounts to the enemy. I know the socialist and anti-government propaganda fed particularly to the coast and urban populations for the last few decades has really paid dividends in their converts. I know that you see what is said and done here and it must seem very surreal to you, even enraging on a bad day, and in some ways, must make you feel even farther from home.

But home is where the heart is, and millions of Americans here at home think of you guys every day, and wish you success and safe journey back. For all the people out there so in need of therapy that they hate themselves, their country, their government, and ignore 30 years of open statements and terrorisms and publications all so they can pretend it's all one President's fault, please know that these pansies are by no means the majority. You know what they say, there's one in every family--our country may have a few more armchair moralists than most (not counting France of course) but we've also got strong and honorable kick-ass soldiers like you.

Ooh RAH! From the heartland, wishing you good weapons and another day to fight.

Posted by: McTANK at November 23, 2005 10:18 PM


Let's face it wars are very profitable for some people, our VP comes to mind. Besides it's happening over there so we can't see the pain and misery we cause. Like all the wars we had up to date.
Reading this made me think -
"The bomber pilots came, unopposed, safe and cosy in their state-of-the-art aircraft, pressing buttons to drop bombs, to kill, destroy and maim. And then they fly back to their comfortable quarters and celebrate 'Mission Accomplished'.
"Who are the terrorists? The people, in most cases civilians, who were bombed, or the bombers?

Posted by: Tom at November 23, 2005 11:31 AM


The U.S.U.cK alliance will be booted out of Irak just as the US has been booted out of Vietnam, Libanon, Iran and Somalia. That would be a laughing matter if it werent for the 120.000 Iraki civilians and 6 millions Vietnamese civilians and the thousends of grain-washed American low class soldiers butchered because of American stupidity, greed and hatred.

Dont forget it is the Bush administration who brought you 911. Do some research.

Posted by: Love your enemy at November 23, 2005 09:50 AM


I continue to be amazed at how some talk about this situation as if we were at war with someone who had attacked us. There never was a connection between Iraq and 911. Never. One of Iraq's neighbors, Israel, has nukes but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting we bomb the hell out of them over it. Getting back to 911, would some military genius out there explain to me how a commercial jet could enter the pentagon without leaving something on the ground, or a hole bigger than it did? What would those who think it's ok for the US to do what it has done say if someone more powerful than us came along and threatened to destroy us unless we disarmed? What in the hell ever happened to common sense. How can anyone ever, under any circumstances justify killing men, women, and children who have done nothing to us? Can anyone with the attitude that what the US is doing is right justify their right to inhabit any place on this planet?

Posted by: humanbeing at November 23, 2005 01:08 AM


OOOORRAHH!!!

The spirit of our Marines is to enter a fight expecting to win, & still be able to score a 300 on the upcoming Physical Fitness Test, eventually get some liberty/leave.

--Not pussyfoot around, settle for less, compromise safety/security of fellow warriors & innocent people who are depending upon them to be Victorius.

All new weapons are controversial (i.e. Gatlin Gun). It is the tactics & strategies of the terrorists that jeopardizes innocent bystanders,
civilians, & hostages.

HUGE Efforts & GREAT Pains (just short of sacrificing of our own lives & mission) are a standard policy/procedure among all our military activities these days (Just ask some of the endangered wildlife on any military base.)to prevent Any harm to Any Innocent Entity. Nevertheless, there is room for error---certainly exploited by the enemy.

That said, anything that can give us the edge in battle is the first thing that should enter the professional warrior's mind. Training helps us to properly apply this in concert with our Law of War.

I wager that the entities complaining are clueless when it comes to Military Ops On Urban Terrain. The fact that a cmdr must consider losses of his own forces of near 75%.... just to enter a built-up area. Don't know about you, but I never would ask anything of my troops that I would not do myself; and, letters home about life loss under my leadership are not something to toy with. No, THIS IS A GOOD PIECE OF GEAR.
Thanks be to God! It sure beats the old stuff by far.

HOPEFULLY, many of those troops on our side whose lives were spared because of the employment of this weapon will return home &
RUN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE here in this nation.

HOOOAH!!!

Posted by: Worms-Eye-View at November 22, 2005 07:11 PM


First of all, America and Britain were not the only countries who went to war in Iraq. Atleast half of the countries in the U.N. wanted the war and are participating in the war in some form. Secondly, Hussein did have WMD. He hid them and destroyed some of them before we invaded. He had plenty of time to do this. If he didn't have them, then why was he so reluctant to have weapons inspectors in Iraq? What would everyone have said if he gassed innocent Iranians again or some other country's innocent civilians and we had that same intelligence? You people would be lining up to take pop shots at Americans and Britains for failing to act on it. If you don't believe he had WMD, then you don't believe in anything. You are foolish.

Posted by: Al DiDomizio at November 22, 2005 03:42 PM


The Iraq war would be over and many more civilians would have been spared if the U.S. had just carpet bombed Iraq. We'll remeber that next time we have to bail a country out.
To all of you anti-U.S. folks out there, remember we bailed you out in every war that threatened world peace and your way of life. You still have your freedom, and I wouldn't doubt you have more freedom since then thanks to us Amercians who are willing to sacrifice our lives for ungrateful people like you that are thousands of miles from us.
If you don't like U.S. policies, then stop dealing with us. We'll stop contributing to 25% of the U.N. budget and invest that money back into an alternative fuel source that doesn't pollute. We won't share it with you either so that you will become the so-called biggest poluters on earth, and we'll watch your economy go to the toilet. Mark my words, all these things I say will come true because the U.S. is ruled by the people and for the people, and we are sick and tired of you!
One more thing, we don't want to rule this world, and we sure as hell are not going to let you rule it either.

Posted by: Al DiDomizio at November 22, 2005 03:26 PM


In WW2, both sides killed civilians - many, many civilians. Strategic bombing by the Allies destroyed cities in Germany & Japan & caused more civilian deaths & injuries than anyone could count. Germany & Japan killed civilians in bombings, but also in other ways, the Germans being the most efficient at it. The Germans in particular were responsible for tens of millions of civilian deaths. In modern warfare civilians get killed; that is the way it is. The more fundamental issue is the question of resorting to war, which the Bush administration seemed to have been eager to do. That, I believe, is the matter that should be addressed. Meanwhile, a lot of people, civilian & military, are being killed & wounded. In my view, invading Iraq without having realistic plans & resources for a secure occupation of the country was a rather stupid mistake.

Posted by: J.H. de Raat at November 22, 2005 12:53 PM


The only purpose of an army is to murder people and destroy property, or to cause others to do what you want through the threat of murder and destruction. In WW2, our fire-bombing of Japanese cities murdered and destroyed much more than the nuclear weapons did. I don't really understand how some weapons or techniques are OK and others are not. Murder with one thing is moral, murder with another is not? Someone please explain.

Posted by: my-crackpot-theories at November 22, 2005 12:49 PM


FINALLY LET THE PANSY,S AND HANDWRINGERS AND PENTAGON REMF,S . TAKE NOTE . A TIMELY WEAPON EMPLOYED BY OUR BRAVE SKILLED MARINES ASSAULT MEN IS EXACTLY WHAT IS NEEDED.THEMOBARIC ROCKS THE IRAQI WORLD MAJOR F.LEE MOORE III U.S.M.C.-RET

Posted by: F.LEE MOORE at November 22, 2005 12:36 PM


Bush, and the 'crazy gang' have been promoting a US domination of the middle east since the early '90's.
I would say the majority view in Britain would be that this war is largely about oil. The fact that Our governments have been caught lying to us on numerous occasions, has left many feeling thats there is nothing our respective governments would not do. Pat Robertsons recent statement that someone should execute Venezuelan leader Chavez, paints a picture of America dominated by warmongering religious fanatics intent on bombing anyone who gets in there way. The Bush/cheney/ oil/haliburton connections, for god sake, Bush has been financially bailed out by the Bin laden family on more than one occasion.

Posted by: brit at November 22, 2005 12:15 PM


For the last two posters-
America has never hang up their sword, no they just sharpened it and treatened anyone who had a differend opinion.
Who cares about legality, certainly not America as they have proven in all conflicts they ever had.
Just keep on making more and more heinous weapons, if you are not using them you can always sell them or give them as aid to your friends and under developed nations.

Posted by: Rick at November 22, 2005 12:12 PM


Many of y'all tend to forget history. It was the Hittites that first defeated Darius (Persian) in what is now Iraq...they did it the same way are...a fleet "march up"...with vicious hand-to-hand fighting in small "squads" of warriors (OooRah!) War is hell. The Marines are the tip of the spear. Give them what they need. As for those who would acommodate/negotiate first, remember France?

Posted by: MOM-15 at November 22, 2005 12:07 PM


The author of the article wrote:
"I'm undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up."

You know, I could have sworn that this was already standard procedure?

If not, that would seem to indicate that weapon manufacturers churn out hardware without knowing whether if it's capabilities violates the laws of war (???), which would certainly seem strange.

Or was the author's problem simply that it wasn't legal experts hired by the leftwing loonie establishment who did the assesment?

I suspect option no. 2 is the case...

Posted by: Eurotrash Redneck at November 22, 2005 10:02 AM


I long for the day when all warriors on both sides hang up their swords and move forward towards peace. America has done this with England, Nazi Germany, and Japan. We thought those wars would never end. I long for the day that our troops can come home and Iraq can have the "keys" back to their own country and run it for themselves. Most hopefully for the better. Until then, lets give our troops the best tools for the job. If you want to make omeletes, you have to break eggs. Period. Semper Fidelis!

Posted by: Dutch at November 22, 2005 10:01 AM


They thought they were free:

http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/05/11/pre05154.html

Posted by: realist at November 22, 2005 06:36 AM


To All,

Everyone involved in the war and killing debate would do well to give some thought to what got exactly brought us to this point. THEFT, then murder. Israel. The bible is not a deed to land. All the information concerning the theft and occupation of the land that is now known as Israel is available on UN web sites. It's very well documented. Without the help and support of the UK and the US Israel would not have been able to get away with what they did. That is why the Arabs who hate us, hate us. Not because of our religion or constitution. Pretty simple stuff, but somehow those in power have managed to twist and contort the facts for the past 40 plus years. Those who are at war with us are simply reacting in the only way they have available. If we vacate there lands and stop our support of the fascist state of Israel, perhaps, hopefully, eventually they can forget what we have done to them. Then maybe, hopefully, our children and grandchildren will not be paying for our mistakes.

Posted by: humanbeing at November 21, 2005 08:32 PM


Dennis,

Me thinks you must be one of those un-american, fascist pigs who are masquerading as americans and giving the rest of us a bad name in the process. Actually I'm a cross between a conservative and a liberal. So fucking what? Have you taken the time to look beyond Fox News? Only an under educated, lazy chump would buy the propaganda that got us into this mess in the first place. Marines Mom, Guess what, your son, if he is part of the murdering that is going on in other countries is giving them a legitimate excuse to kill other Americans. Of course they want us dead. If someone invaded our country and killed innocent men, women, and children simply because of the weapons our government may or may not have you would want to see them dead to. Jesus, save us from these morons that surround us.

Posted by: humanbeing at November 21, 2005 08:06 PM


Your trigger happy red necks are to come home some day - have fun.

Posted by: Willie at November 21, 2005 07:30 PM


After reading some of the comments posted here, I have stopped trying to wonder what kind of people voted for Bush. It is obvious. I have never read such heartless, bloodthirsty, mindless posts anywhere -- except for the sentiments and strategies expressed in "Mein Kampf." How do human beings cease to evolve and revert to Neanderthal?

Posted by: Kyle Bradshaw at November 21, 2005 07:15 PM


Damn, everyone thinks everybody cares about what they have to say. Shut the hell up. Nobody is listening...

Posted by: junkdog at November 21, 2005 07:07 PM


How long before the "bad guys" get their own?

1 year, 2 years, I bet there will be Chinese or Russian versions in less than 3 years.

Interesting ain't it?

Have any of you Rambos ever read anything on 4GW?

Machines don't fight wars, people do and they use their minds. (JB)

Posted by: Shockwave at November 21, 2005 07:03 PM


JOZ,
I cant beleive I am going to say this but, Shit, I agree with some of your points. I am an American,served as a US Marine and also served in the US Army. Your quote(Dont underestimate propaganda) is the most common sence thing I have seen on here. I know what you mean by the US not understanding what its like to haveing a super power take over, and you give a great example in explaining that. That is why the US is the way it is. History shows us that every Superpower has its day. I hate to say that about my own country but facts are facts. The Roman empire, Egyptions,hell even the Middle East befor 1911(the year 1911) was under a somewhat calm leadership. But, I gotta ask ya something. The UK is growing and shapeing right? In history any country that prospers becomes the point of intrest. In the US its damm if you do damm if you dont. If we stayed to ourselves wich I would love to see, cosed off all imports and boarders and hoarded all of our economic power, the world would be bullshit over it. we are tring to (liberate) a country when we have homeless in our own. We point our fingure at every other problem when we have so many of our own. The problem with that is our political parties. Both sides are f&*ked up. bothe are out for themselves kinda like how the Roman empire was just before it fell.

Posted by: Dennis at November 21, 2005 06:32 PM


if it saves one Marine and kills 1 insurgent its good for me, damn the Lawyers and PAO's.
I was in NAM, damn the politics, use what we have and buy more. Save American lives. This is like NAM in you don't know who you are fighting by day and night.
Fight wars to win not played by call Command to see if we can return fire.

Posted by: PICKLES at November 21, 2005 06:23 PM


Americans call themselves civilized -
What a load of crap, sooner or later if not already everybody on this earth will see you for what you are - a bunch of murderous bullies.

Posted by: Willie at November 21, 2005 06:16 PM


In war, weather weapons production or use,
there is no room for discussion of human rights.

The right to be human is already decided to be lost, by your opponent. therefore, in their families, and neighbors, there is no right to life either.

In war, there is war, and it should be absolute, and made to achieve victory, nothing else.

If we would remember these simple truths of warfare, Iraq would be its own right now, with our troops home right now. Why?

We should have destroyed the entire region with everything we had, or else not gone in at all.

Why preserve a people that allowed the situation to devolve to its current point anyway?

If they wont make change on their own, they dont deserve to be helped to make change from others.

Like my Father always said, "If you are willing to help yourself first, then I am willing to help you". I hope they develop new rounds for our Marines to fire that have the same explosive/damage capability as a .02 ounce chunk of heavy-duty explosives.

Thank You for the news.

Posted by: Brad Sommerfeld at November 21, 2005 05:57 PM


Just read a couple more disgusting posts. To begin, im not religious, but do believe the bible and other holy books are very useful. Id like to begin with my explanation of how despicable some of you americans are, note 'some' maybe not even 2%. The point is you cannot believe that by killing them your doing the right thing for the economy. Thats disgusting. You kind the first step of people that are the sickos that rape little kids and cut up the bodies of women. I despise that type, killing a person thats unarmed is shameful. Ive never seen such dishonor, its disgusting. I want to hang you all. Anyway, The point is not that killing the unarmed is wrong, its that killing at all is wrong, you have no business in raiding neighbouring countries, and yes, the world is a neightbourhood, so dont think that just because his skin is darker it means he is bad and should be redeemed by your hands. And dont for one second think that they are all religious, so many people (likle myself) just want to live life without retarded sick sons of bznatches invading our lives by killing our freidns and family. And also dont think for a second that i dont pity the families of the poor american soldiers that went to iraq and were killed. You dont even know how many of those young guys who were brainwashed into thinking war is cool, and killing is cool, are killed themselves. So f off with your retarded nonsense, wake up and realize that if you dont yourself suffer, your family just might,and for sure the underdogs are going to suffer a hell of a lot, but theyre just people too, not crazy fascist communist jihad loving whores, they want to just protect their families, and maybe there are crazy suicide bombers, but i dunno if thats just some bs spoonfed by bush and the other party animal politicians. Good luck with your bullshit you cck suckn testicles.
PEACE!

Posted by: J0Z at November 21, 2005 04:27 PM


First of all, if bush was assasinated or kicked out or w/e, you really think the situation would change?? HAHAHAH! No difference between the stranglehold of the politicians in ancient rome and the same thing right now. I wont even get into specifics. Anyway, wanted to say especially to the guy who doesnt care about innocent people, and think all arabs or muslims are evil and hate america, well wake up to realize the bullshit that bush has spoonfed right up americas fat ass. Fkuc off! Now all americans can believe is that everyone hates them, but theyre just doing their duty blah blah so fkuc all immigrants and stupid morons from all round the world. Those fcuks (not all amercans of course, dont even think im anti american) need to seriously smell the coffee, and realize the braindead childish bs thoughts that run through your minds. You think muslims hate you? Well why did you need to be told this?? Just imagine The US was a small country with barely any military power, and a superpower comes and rapes your ass, then starts telling their countries people that you are evil terrorists, and the mass weapons of destruction will kill off their families. And that they have a duty to protect the world. What the fuck would you be thinking then huh? When your wife is dead, and your cousins legs are missing? What the fuck would be running through your mind??? Oh, that big superpower is just helping out.. Oh for sure.. The slaughter in iraq is no different than the rwanda massacre, or the holocaust, or countless other bullshit wars. And when you start to think that a small little country is seriously stupid enough to attack the US, youve got to be extremely stupid to believe that it was planned by "terrorists". A dog is seriously not stupid enough to attack another dog thats over 10 times is size and strength. Dont believe for one second that those so called terrorists would sacrifice their own people to get rid of a tower, some americans. And then somehow, some rich guy gets a shitload of insurance money from the collapse of the towers, which seems to be bullshit in the first place due to the evidence that the towers couldnt even collapse like that. Simple chemistry and physics tell us that the probability of the towers collapsing like that is extremely unlikely, in fact, no building or tower has ever collapsed in such perfect form (like how a building collapses when charges are placed in the perfect spots) so what the heck do you think? That the american politicians who have never cared about the innocent americans, or anybody besides themselves for that matter are not capable of doing such horrific acts againsttheir own people to get the country on their side, on their side so they could go to war and eliminate the muslim world, and still make tons and tons of cash off of it. No difference from the holocaust, the same blame put on a peoples, and they get eliminated without anybody stepping in. This whole world makes me sick, and even though there is much good, it causes me mental pain to think about the fin bull thats been programmed into the minds of many people. And my mind is always swimming with the thoughts off all the kids dying, women and children, innocent people. Then i realize that my anger cant even match up to a millionth of the pain and anger others are feeling. So remember that once youve incriminated the innocent, they actually start turning into dogs. Im not islamic or muslim, or arab, but european, and americans some how dont understand how war works, because theyve never been robbed by other nations, never been taken over by a stronger country. They will never understand what being a slave is. And i have a feeling no matter how much you try to educate the ones that are already brainwashed, theyre too lazy to give a shit. Im not even going to get into the evil of economy and marketing and television. No joke! I love tv, but its freakin making us into asshole zombies. Anyway, the above is not my opinion just something said by someone, and i know that people have been killed before for expressing their opinion (in north america.. which is hard to believe for north americans, but dont be fooled, some people need to be silenced) but im not in favor of suicide so dont believe the government if they say i killed myself :D Anyway, if it ever happens, i wont mind because im so sick and tired of the brainwash that id rather die than sit around and keep my mouth shut. So everyone try to educate others, and i only want you to take the following from my words: 1. Go as far as sacrificng yourself for the greater good 2. Dont understimate the power of propaganda 3. Dont let anyone tell you another is evil, especially if you havent seen it with your own eyes (remember what hitler did to the polish) 4. Never pick up a gun and kill your fellow man, because if nobody picks up the gun, the politicians can go f themselves. Even if your told you will be killed, dont give in. Because this world will never be a good place if something drastic doesnt happen soon. (lets not even discuss pollution muahaha) 5. I am a crazy fanatic, praise Jihad 6. Jesus never said anything about removing or changing others, just try to be the best person you can, and the world will somehow be a better place.

Posted by: J0Z at November 21, 2005 03:55 PM


Army Teach,

Who are these war heroes you speak of? How is a 18 year old kid who signed up for the national guard a war heroe? He doesn't want to be over in Iraq with minimal training..He is just doing his job because it's to late to pull out. One of my friends is over in Iraq right now, and he says that they sent his whole group over there very unprepared. He has no choice but to try and stay safe because there is violence everywhere. There is no frontline. You are under attack always. My heart goes out to all of the soldiers who didn't know what they were getting into when they went over there to be "stationed". I believe him when he says that they did not know that they were going to be in this type of situation in the middle of of a nationwide warsite. He says an unbelievable amount of the troops over there are very unhappy with what they are doing compared to what they were told they would be doing. He claims that way over 50% of the soldiers are very upset with bush and think that their presence is useless.

By the way, we already failed to use all of the resources available to us. If we had used them all, then we could have had all of the terrorists in that area executed within a year of Sept.11, but no, just let bush play it out and see what
else he can permanantly fuck up...Also, this already is a scandal you idiot. Wake the fuck up.

Posted by: bush blows at November 21, 2005 02:53 PM


Bush is the whole problem here. We are fighting a war that is pointless. Seriously. If we are wasting all of our soldiers and tax dollars, why is the price of gas still sky high? If we want to liberate Iraq, we should at least get gasoline in return for our help right? Maybe, just maybe a few more people would support this war if we had a single benefit from it. But of course we dont. Bush's buddys at the weapons plants are banking off of this war by selling us weaponry; bush's friends at the oil companies are making more then ever off of gasoline; what the fuck? All we get in return is effort from the government to take away more and more of our freedoms everyday, in the name of safety.....I say fuck that. it has went way too far. We need to stand up as a americans and stop letting the bush administration decide our future for us. Anyone who can just stand there and think that it is okay for them to do what ever necassary to stop terrorism is nuts... When will it stop? When there is a nationwide curfew? When leaving your state is as complicated as leaving the country? When you can no longer choose where you want to keep your money? Pretty soon they are going to say that we cant have cash because terrorists cannot operate without cash circulating. Then what? Everything you purchase and everyplace you go will have a paper trail? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing to hide, but this is all an invasion of our privacy, and a sickening display of the government using terrorism as a scare tactic in getting people to be okay with losing their amendment rights....Dont fall for it people!

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS; NOT OUR PRESIDENT

Posted by: bush blows at November 21, 2005 02:31 PM


"let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up."
"Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first."
Really! War is not won by legal people or fought by debateing societies. When we send our military heroes into war, the nitpicking should stop. Our military are known for their compassion as much as for their might and they deserve our trust and our support. Not a single military life should be lost because we failed to use the munitions and resources available. That would be a scandal!

Posted by: ArmyTeach at November 21, 2005 02:08 PM


Realist, spot on

Posted by: realist at November 21, 2005 06:10 AM


Seems sad that so many Americans are so totally brainwashed by FOX and others.

We outside the US want you to once more bi the big benevolent force you once where.

I have read you declaration of independence and your constitution. Both beautiful documents.

These days though, you are being perverted by nasty people (bush, cheny etc ) and you are turning out worse than the people you are out to "liberate".

Take your soldiers and their WMD's home again and we all will be better off


You cant create peace by bombing people or to blow them up with horror weapons.

OR if you believe you can, why not just nuke the middle east?

Posted by: John at November 21, 2005 01:50 PM


Fellow soldiers,

It seems the mouths of those who have never served once again know more than the people who are over there. I cannot beleive I still see the (war for oil) bullshit on here. Once again be reminded that Saddam funded the terrorist. To look into it deeper, why are we picking on N. Korea? Oh, for oil, thats right, what about Iran? Ahhh, I forgot, oil again. Most people including myself get wrapped up into the news and start to beleive what we hear by people like Wolf blitzer and Dan Rather. The fact remains that the majority of the civilian population will never know what happens at the Presidenatial briefs. It just hit me that when I post to comment on people who say thigs like(you dick suckers)ect..about our service men and wemon, I am just waisting time arguing with high school kids who know nothing. The kids on this forum are like a bunch of John Kerry clones. They thribe on what there social studies teacher tells them or what they see on CNN. (Humanbeing) is a perfect example of what a liberal is. He states that Bush is responsible for his lost pen, Christian and ect.. are the blame for what happens in the US. Yet the same Democratic party wants diversity. What a joke. The democratic party has SOME good ideas but for the most part everything they do is a lie. Look at Tom Dash-hole, he bitched about tax dollars being spent on the military yet his wife lobbied for Bowing and instead of letting the military buy outright good o'l Tom got contracts to lease these planes wich cost the tax payer triple the $$$. Do you see the liberals talking about this? Nope, cause there great leaders would be exposed. Anyhow, have a nice day

Posted by: Dennis at November 21, 2005 01:04 PM


I think that it is always a good thing to debate the use and morality of using a new weapon such as this.

However, at the end of the day - our adversaries will not hesitate to use any weapon that they can get their hands on, including this one. So, even if we decide not to use it. That means our potential enemies will have this weapon and we won't. Just because we are moral.

I guarantee that the Russian produced RPG version of this is just as deadly if not more so than our own. WHY should we deprive ourselves of the same weapon or a counter-weapon (if you will)?

As nasty as this oxygen-sucking - fuel air explosive is, I think that it is necessary.

It appears to be great on buildings and bunkers.

However, the possibility of fratricide and unintential civilian deaths needs to be addressed to all potential users. This simply means that this weapon needs to be used with great care. Not that any weapon is ever used without care.

The unfortunate thing is that any use of a weapon like this means that you are almost always going to potentially kill unintentially civilians and other friendlys in the area.

I think that that is a risk that most soldiers are willing to take. The problem will arise when such fratricide and unintentional deaths of civilians take place. HOW do you live with yourself? That is a tough question to ask and to have to live with.

Posted by: Timothy Forde at November 21, 2005 12:43 PM


Humanbeing,

Did you ever serve? Shut the fuck up then you liberal piece of shit.

Posted by: Dennis at November 21, 2005 12:29 PM


When you have children lobbing grenades and women strapping on bombs how exactly are you suppose to figure out who is an innocent?

This whole discussion is rediculous if you want to argue whether we should be there or not then do it. But if you are going to put my son in harms way at least give him the weaponry that will keep him alive!

What do I know right? I am just a stupid American mom of a US Marine. Whatever!!
And those of you who say we should pull out right now please let us know, stand up and be accounted for because we want you to go to a certain area of the country where are military will not be responsible for protecting your butt Then when Al-qaida makes a trip accross the pond. Then you can all hold hands and have a long discussion with them about how the Stupid Americans are just an awful bunch of people and then after they have cut off your heads you might get the point they don't like you or your culture!! The only good American to them is a dead one being it liberal or conservative.

Posted by: Marines mom at November 21, 2005 12:01 PM


Well what do you know? The military has produced a BFG.

Posted by: Tag at November 21, 2005 10:48 AM


First let me say this: My dad was in the air force for 25 years. I was raised in the forces. I joined the cadets (a form of militia for teenagers here in Canada) as soon as I could. Now I'm a middle-aged man with mostly centrist views and still with a soft spot for the armed forces. My son is presently in the militia, (much like your National Guard) with my support. But you can call me a liberalcommieweenie if it makes you feel better.

That said, I believe anyone who uses a weapon that kills as indiscriminately as this one is by definition a war criminal. There can be no justification for its use. This weapon will ONLY save lives in the minds of those who use and sell it. You can rest assured that this kind of terror will only INCREASE the threats faced by your soldiers by uniting everyone against you because they fear you. That's how wars are lost - and believe me, you've already lost this war. The enemy has become everyone. (So much for winning hearts and minds!) It's time to find a political solution to this morass and bring your soldiers home to safety.

One further thought - I'm astounded at the sheer number of psychopaths that choose to post on this site. Get professional help, fellas, before its too late for you.

And like Michael Moore said the other day - There's a lot more people thinking like me these than there are that think like you guys. Your numbers are in "fringe" territory.

Thank God.

Posted by: arthurdecco at November 21, 2005 10:18 AM


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Posted by: realist at November 21, 2005 06:10 AM


Hi Wild Snide,

I would reply get over the U.S. casualties crap. I find it amazing how much the U.S. people bitch about their soldiers getting killed when they go to war. If you want to keep your soldiers alive keep them at home. If however you want to fight in Iraq you have to stop whining like a bunch of pussies about your casualties.

You talk about liberation. I doubt very much Iraqis view the U.S. as having liberated them. Indeed an Iraqi friend of mine said Saddam was 10 times as bad as was reported, but they regard the US and esp. George Bush as no better, what as he brought them, death, torture, and chaos.

I have no problem with fighting a 'war' on terror, or liberating Iraq. The problems I have are twofold.

1. Don't confuse the two issues. If you change stories half way through (as the administration did), then the only conclusion we can come to is that the US people were lied to. The rest of us knew that George Bush was full of it.

2. Don't think the rest of the world cares about your soldiers more than the civilians in Iraq.

For those of you trying to figure out where I am from, I'll give you another clue. More than 10% of my country travelled a long way to fight in the fields of Europe. However most of the people in my country view the US efforts as illegal.

Posted by: Michael at November 21, 2005 06:05 AM


How in the hell could anyone support the troops as if they are fighting for Americans? They aren't. They're fighting for the commander in chief. Ya know, the traitor that sits in the white house. They same guy who represents the rich, the corporation, and the religious nuts in this country who aren't any better than the taliban. Support the troops? Support baby killers. don't think so. Those same fuckers who are killing innocent people in other lands, will someday be killing innocent people right here at home. Fuck em.

Posted by: humanbeing at November 21, 2005 04:47 AM


All you "brave" animals, who support war, for oil, or any reason, should be dropped into the middle east, naked, without us tax dollars. If you weren't such sissy's you would be there without hard earned tax dollars. I would love to hear that all who think war is necessary had killed each other off. I didn't see much mention of dead children on this page. A pig is a pig, regardless of the flag they fight under. Please do not fight for or defend me. I'll take care of myself. thanks.

Posted by: humanbeing at November 21, 2005 04:31 AM


Good God, theres some sick mother fuckers at THIS site. Beam me up, Scottie, no intelligent life here.

Posted by: Pissed Off American at November 21, 2005 01:52 AM


"In the case of Fallujah everyone I know that went said they never once saw a noncombatant in the city. Blahblahblah......."

Posted by: The Cenobyte


You're full of shit.

Posted by: Pissed Off American at November 21, 2005 01:43 AM


.
All you stoked-up wannabee killing machines: eventually you live in the reality you create. So good luck trying to escape these horrible weapons when they are turned against you and yours. Do you have feelings of sympathy for the pain of other people, the suffering of other people? No, it appears that you're just fascinated by the "coolness" of these killing machines. How sad for you! And no, I don't need you to "protect" me. I see you and your kind as the problem. You are in every culture, in every society, in every country, down through the ages. You who put your energy into war are wasting your valuable lives on a grand failure instead of a grand solution.
.

Posted by: Booyah at November 21, 2005 12:55 AM


Unbelieveable comments mostly.
Makes me feel ashamed to be a human.
Are you living in a dreamworld people?
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
How many times you need to hear that before you actually realise it?
What are those good reasons to attack Iraq Nathan? I haven't heard any reason that is even close being enough to attack Iraq.

Posted by: PeXi at November 21, 2005 12:40 AM


Look damnit, we're over in Iraq and Afganistan for good reasons. Now we can kill the enemy easier with this new weapon. Use it to kill, and lots of it. Semper Fi! Good job Marines.

Nathan

Posted by: Nathan at November 20, 2005 10:41 PM


Reading this is like entering a different world. I am so disappointed by some of the comments that I have read.

A Lancet report documented 100K Iraqi civilians dead as a consequence of the war, using a methodology which underestimated the casualty rate (excluding Fallujah, excluding deaths where the entire household had been killed or had fled). Given that over half the population of Iraq is under 15, thats an awful lot of dead babies.

It is now established that there were no chemical weapons in Iraq before the invasion, and but that the US troops brought with them and used, against a civilian population, weapons which melt the skin, cause suffocation through blisters in the throat and burn to the bone.

There was no indication that Saddam Hussain had any part in 911, nor that he was funding Al Quaeda, especially given that Iraq was one of the few secular countries in the region pre-invasion. Now it is an anti-Western hothouse and a religous bloodbath.

One of my friends sons was killed in Iraq, she went to the papers as he did not have the correct basic equipment to protect himself.

Yet a fortune has been spent on developing these weapons which are not "defensive" but offensive, deployed in a country which did not pose any threat to us, against a civilian population with a high child demographic.

Just look at the situation in Iraq, look at the misery that this war has brought to that already troubled country, look at the widows and the crippled and the children who have lost parents over here. Look at the money, yours and mine, that has been spent for nothing. Look at bodies of burnt babies. If you can do all that and still justify this weapon or indeed any others being used in Iraq, you are far more than just a fool, it is you who the enemy.

Bring the troops home now, sort out international reparations for Iraq under a coalition that does not involve the countries which have made such a mess it.

Posted by: mhairi mcalpine at November 20, 2005 04:12 PM


Keep using it for it will save our MARINES.
the only ones complaining are the bleeding hearts.

Posted by: Cpl Bliss Retired at November 20, 2005 04:05 PM


some poeple just contradicted themselves.

You are basically trying to say war happens and is wrong, so you can use whatever weapons you want?

lol, then why did USA invade iraq again?

and the USA cry "dont beleive the anti-US propaganda."

It dont bother non Americans, because the fact the USA brainwash the American public, it dont amtter, coz its the American Lives at stake.

2000+ americans dead, and for what?

Posted by: lol at November 20, 2005 03:32 PM


This new weapon will be a great asset to the 0351 Assaultman's arsenal. Not that the current SMAW doesn't do a good enough job. Its just that in war it is essential to have the best weapon available to ensure your safe return home. Those critics that are worried about collateral damage that can, and most likely will result from this weapon must have forgotten what brought us into this war. Think about all the lives of normal, everyday people that were taken away on that day. I am an 0311 in the Marine Corps and will love to have the Assaultman that will accompany me into battle to carry around this weapon. This way I would have a better possibility of coming home safe.

Semper Fi.

Daniel Roach, PFC/USMC

Posted by: Daniel Roach at November 20, 2005 02:40 PM


Thor,
My,my,my what a hatefull little man you are. No I did not use your thoughts as to the Osama thing.
Yes, I have read the Koran douchebag. Face it, this is a holy war in the eyes of isamic extremest
Do I feel good about children being killed? Ahhhhh
NO! And if you ask the majority of Marines on this site they will agree. Lets look at this. If I seen a 8 year old boy strapped with explosives comming toward my unit or a populized area of people whould I put one in his head? YES! The tactics of the islamic jihadist are in way similar to those of Viet Nam. Oh and your other question about the bible, well son, the bible is 100% true, the Koran being the only book that has stayed true to the origonal text, meaning that its never been translated is 100 differant translations like the bible is the only thing I can say about it. But mohammed being the phesant and theif he was and the fact that your reward in heaven is that of fleshly desire does not line up with God. why would he condem adultry and fornication but then reward you with wine and virgins afterward? Seems like you are the one who needs to do the reading. Yes I know, I am only taking out key issues of the Koran. I suppose you will tell me how wrong I am, but i will tend to beleive my friend Jahffae who is from Iran and has never missed a day of prayer since he was a child over you when dealing with my facts of the muslum religon. I do not rejoyce when innocent children are killed, let me ask you, did you rejoyce when Timmothey killed all those people???
how about the USS Cole? a simple resupply deserved the horrid actions of some islamic asshole? Listen, no one likes to see innocent people killed, its just what happens in war. when I was in the Middle East, I had compassion for those who wanted the same thing as I, Peace. But I would not hesitate to end the life of some jerk shooting anyone who did not conform to his jihad bullshit. What about Africa? I dont see the UN doing anything about that. And as for the US? Damm if we do damm if we dont. Go to school litte boy, learn before you speak and my God, dont argue with someone who could be your dad LMAO!!!!!

Posted by: Dennis at November 20, 2005 02:40 PM


Bob: "Public discussion about the design, application, and effectiveness of new weapons? "

No, that's not what I was suggesting. My point was that controversial weapons need to be the subject of open discussion, otherwise problems will arise.

This is NOT a matter of "cool new weapon vs bleeding-heart liberals."

The issue has to whether tactical utility is outweighed by the negative effects on a larger scale.

One picture of a little girl burned by napalm had a significant impact on the public perception of the Vietnam war - even though the napalm was not dropped by US forces.

With any controversial weapon we have to consider what the political effect will be on allies - losing their support may be costly. There is also the effect on the home front, the effect on the Iraqi political process, and the effect on the Muslim world - at present only a fraction of all Muslims are violently anti-US.

So any controversial weapon, be it napalm, WP, thermobarics or anything else must be evaluated carefully.
To take an extreme example, using nerve gas on a bunker filled with insurgents might be highly effective and might even play well with some of the domestic US audience, but in the long run it would be catastrophic.

Posted by: David Hambling at November 20, 2005 02:33 PM


You have all got US paranoia. If you all stayed at home in the US, there would be no need for your nasty weapons of massdestruction.

Human Rights watch says

"Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissueit is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate"


What sort of sick nation would creat a weapon like that?

And then you think that you are nice!

Jesus Christ, you guys are nuts, stay at home in your country and leave the rest of the world alone, PLEASE PLEASE

Posted by: John at November 20, 2005 02:27 PM


Get the Liberals and Media OUT of the war zone, and let the Military take care of business! We don't need to be giving sympathy to terrorists.
Geneva Convention "Rules", I believe only pertain to the Armed Forces of Countries, not mercenaries!
This is a great weapon, so let's see what it can really do!

PS: I think the United States should stop all this "ass kissin'" going under the guise of being Politically Correct.

Posted by: Neg at November 20, 2005 11:58 AM


Quite entertaining. Not the article, but the comments left by joe bubba Q Americans self-congratulating themselves on finding new and improved ways of "stompin dem dere stinkin pakis"

Hopefully, you can one day yourself experience the "acceptable and necessary" "collateral damage" first hand yourself, as some 12 year old Jihad kid strapped up with several kilos of explosives knocks on your door and bids you welcome to wherever we go when we're dead, as payment for some redneck overseas getting a little too trigger happy with his rocket launcher.

Posted by: Sud at November 20, 2005 04:19 AM


hey dennis,
have you ever read a book in general? Judging by your retarded over use of question marks and your inability to even string together a sentence I would say no. What the hell are you talking about the Koran for? Let me guess "you done read on the internets that the Koran is full of evil and msulims walk around all day plotting the destruction of your wonderful lardassed freedom"....give me a fucking break douchebag...why dont you read the Bible and the Koran and then go ahead and tell me which one makes more sense...This weapon is an easy way out to just kill a shit load of people....we have already killed upwards of 60k + people in Iraq and all you see is the sorrow of 2000 US troops dead...we are sending children into an urban combat situation and all you can do is praise the government for giving them more ways to blow someone to pieces...

Are you actually using the fact that we trained and armed the most wanted man in america to kill soviets as a way of saying that we ARENT responsible for his actions? What a freakin idiot...

Posted by: Thor at November 20, 2005 03:22 AM


Cowicide???
WTF? You are a dumb bastard, but do realy beleive all that liberal BS???? Oh look! the terrorist will leave us alone if we leave there land! LMAO!! You Dumb Bastard! Have you ever read the Koran?????????????? Does the Us and Israel strike something your local CNN wont dare cover? Know what, your worthless not even worth the sake of time. Sleep tight asshole, by the way, did Osama declair Holy war after or before we helped his wipe the Soviets ass?????????? Oh yeah........ It was for oil. Sad, sad, sad........

Posted by: Dennis at November 20, 2005 02:43 AM


I'm so sick of this "War for Oil" bullshit...

The left has been spreading that shit for so long now that it would be unfeasible for us to take a single drop from Iraq after this war is over. Yet we are still there, we can leave at any time. So with the 'spoils' of war out the window (the oil right?) why would be hang around? Oh yeh. We are murderous capitalist pigs, etc etc etc..

Get off it.

Posted by: DrZaius at November 20, 2005 12:51 AM


Those flame throwers that my Dad used in the south pacific during WWII were also pretty horrible. But their use beat the heck out of charging a pillbox with only a rifle and hand grenades. Sometimes it seems that you just need to get a little heavy handed with the enemy.

Posted by: BJ at November 19, 2005 10:05 PM


I'm trying to kill you, do I really have to be nice too?

Posted by: Troy Miceli at November 19, 2005 04:47 PM


Mike is right.

Posted by: F. Bright at November 19, 2005 04:25 PM


whatever it takes to save more of our guys lives and get rid of the terrorists.

Posted by: jim at November 19, 2005 03:31 PM


Having been a SMAW gunner and putting HEAA rounds into suspected pillboxes, it sounds like the NE is a good addition to the toolbox.

Fortis et Animus

Posted by: Scot Elliott at November 19, 2005 02:34 PM



The essence of war is violence! Moderation in war is imbecility!.
- John Arbuthnot Fisher

The problem with modern warfare is that we fight to achieve complex goals and are governed by obtuse laws and lead by politicians not Generals. Unfortunately, when troops go in to achieve goals which have a dual nature of both easily defined military components and conflicting political components, a balance needs to be struck in order to achieve both. This necessitates compromises on both weapons and tactics, and sadly, compromise or Moderation means troops die.

The current justification of the war in Iraq is to bring Freedom and Peace and Democracy to the Iraqi people. Killing the bad guys or the evil doers is a core component of that campaign, but the secondary objective involves winning the Iraqi people over to the ideals of Freedom and Democracy. These brave men and women are over there dying; not just to kill terrorists, but, to bring Freedom and Democracy to the middle east. Whether or not you agree with these goals or the justification for the war in the first place this is why they are there now.

Personally, I would not shed a tear, let alone a drop of my own or anothers blood to bring peace to the Middle East. I would rather blanket the entire region in an infinite rain of JDAM hell than see another soldiers family mourn the loss of their child. I may not agree with the administrations choice for war, but I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for any man or woman who chooses to serve their country and put their lives on the line in its defense. If it was up to me they would have every weapon imaginable to simply wipe the face of the earth clean of anything or anyone that might threaten their safety and damn the consequences or collateral damage. I dont believe that any American lives should be wasted on this badly thought out war (see quote at the top). Unfortunately, I dont get to make policy, I dont get to define the goals we have over there, but I do understand the ones the current administration has chosen, and the sacrifice necessary to achieve them in the way that the politicians have planned it.

It is our assertion that we have a better way of life, and we are trying to bring that way of life to the oppressed peoples of the Middle East. If we want them to see a better way, then we must live up to the ideals we hold dear and the standards that we are espousing. This is why we have to be better than everyone else at all times be smarter, hold a higher moral and legal standard, be tougher, be more courageous and cleave to justice and mercy when others would not. This is why we must follow the rule of law, cling to our highest ideals, live up to our treaties and not cheapen the sacrifice of those who are over there shedding their blood in the desert sands by cheating, cutting corners and taking the easy way out when it goes against everything we know is right.

This is why we have to ask ourselves every step along the way; Is this the right thing to do? Is this the moral and legal thing to do? Is this choice consistent with achieving BOTH of our goals? If you can answer yes to all of these questions then you must be on the right course and God Bless you.

Posted by: The Comfy Chair at November 19, 2005 01:22 PM


oh, and as for the new toy... I would rather die quickly... seems more humane no matter how the method. Bullet vs. boom, you're gone, I take the explosion any day, just go ahead and make it quick and painless, now lets talk inhumane. M-16 or whatever your choice. Hitsyou in the shoulder, they carry you back to Alky Head Ops, nursery to the good doctors, and they try to dig around for all of the shrapnel, it hurts like shit, and so you scream for an hour, then die. Next scenario, the new improved version. Little 'ole Alky sec. guard, makin his rounds, tryin to put a meal on his table making an "honest" living, yeah right, honest, got civilians shooting at them Damned ole Misguide Children, Hoo-Rah, we decide o go in quick, quick enough to get bak that evening for a game of poker or something, maybe even a nap, so blow that stuff up, get out of the way, they die quick, never know what hit them, and we get to play cards. I like that one... You do the math, sounds way better than a bullet, but seriously, someone should come out with a book, call it, "A Soldiers Guide to Human Killing" cuz in the end, killing is killing, someone dies, doesn't matter how, just matters that we don't die as much, any arguments there?

Posted by: eric faucett at November 19, 2005 10:25 AM


Why must we listen to the handwringing of human rights activists over a new weapon system? What is more destructive, this new shoulder launched weapon, designed to break down structures within which enemy troops are most likely taking shelter, or an area weapon such as an artillery barrage? Or for that matter, if concern about pin-point destructive weapons is the factor, how about a 120mm tank round of HE fired through a window, and set for delay fusing? NO one on these activist boards seems to say a damn thing about the activities of the enemy - especially such dastardly deeds as the recent bombings in Amman, or the random killing of civilians by car bombers throughout Baghdad. No, we must make sure that OUR guys fight with marshmallows and limp noodle hockey sticks, otherwise we might hurt someone. These are the same folks that will scream bloody murder for our troops to protect them if and when the bad guys start really winning and come here and oppress them. I am a three times combat vet from 'Nam and have seen at close hand just what the bad guys do when let loose. Saddam may not have had WMDs on hand when we invaded, but he sure did use them against his own folks - the Kurds up north come to mind - and would not have hesitated to use them against us if given the opportunity - he said that in Gulf War 1. Wake up people. We are in a world war against these folks, whether you like it or not, and if we lose it, the consequences will be far more terrible than what we are now seeing. Use what weapons we have with their best capabilities to eliminate them and take care of us. Buck Massie, Major USMC (Ret)

Posted by: Malcolm Massie at November 19, 2005 10:20 AM


ok.... why doesn't anybody come out with some publication getting back all of the negetivity about war and politics. I'm a senior in highschool, and I understand, that if terrorist bastards would QUOTE "Negotiate" then peace and paper solutions would be used. But when you have some insurgent assholes that only wanna destruct, I want someone to tell me how you peaceably negotiate with them. I think it was Martin Luther King who said "An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice EVERYWHERE" So if you have Al Quaida over there, growing and fueling a huge regime, then what are we to do, sit like a bunch of bitches and wait to take it. No, if at 911 Bush would not have done anything about it, then what would the nation have said or done? They would have impeached his ass, and they would complain about that. So then he sends troops over, and stuff happens, and now we all complain. Here's my philosophy: "Life is tough, get a helmet" I mean come on, if there are easier ways to accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished, then please, someone tell us all, but all I know is that war is gonna suck for everybody. But, in the end, positive can come out of it, and don't cry about the death rate, yeah, it sucks, that's WAR for you, but it's gonna happen, get some dudes out there with some firepower on each other, and then you have some death. I think people, (i.e., Cindy Shehan(or however you spell her)) should keep their stuff shut. I think all that woman wanted to do was get into history books, cuz her son that died, kinda chose to be in the military. His choice, wasn't forced lady, I'm sorry, but if he was forced, then you may have had a better reason to gripe about it. Why can't we all just get along, and accept what happens. I don't follow politics perfectly, I just catch a little bit here and there. So I can't tell you if Bush is perfect or not, but he seems fine to me. He has a pretty tough job, being President and all, so i think the nation could give him a break, because we can all sit here at home "SAFELY" and chat on our computers and drive to and from, also we can enjoy our "SAFE" American lives, so we should shutup and know our roles, because in the end, we jeopordize our self-security by this on-going slaughter we see ourselves in at putting down the president, and the war, and how bad things are, please, my showers are hott, my heater works, my truck runs, got DirecTv, internet is slow, but hey, it still chugs along, school sucks, but is good for me, got that everyday, umm, the radio is fine, seems to be a Civil War all over that stupid and I Quote "N Word", but hey, my clothes are clean, my food is hott, my gas is expensive and roof doesn't leak, so you know what... I'm thankful for America, because of all of these blessings we have that are taken for granted everyday. Shut your mouth America, for you are ignorant in your ways "while you sleep at home warm under the blanket of protection that we provide." We are safe, the streets are clean, ha, for the most part, if anything, lets start griping about corrupt law enforcement, or something that is actually an issue. For the people, of the people, and by the people. But.... one exception.. our nation is divided in so many directions, we just need to shut it. Thank you for your time,


Eric Faucett
Waurika, OK 73573

Posted by: eric faucett at November 19, 2005 10:16 AM


war is a failure on all sides..

never forget that!

war is never a freakin answer!

it is a failure and the wars of today fuel the hatred of tomorrow!

Posted by: education at November 19, 2005 05:47 AM


Hey what a great idea about debating the use of a weapons system with the human rights advocates before we give it to our troops to fight with. I have an even better solution. How about we attach a lawyer and a politician to every unit, right down to the fire team level. That way, they can be right there in the thick of things to make sure that our troops act according to all of our legal codes and only kill people in a proper, legal, "humane" fashion. In fact, just before a battle our politicians and lawyers can have a sit down with the other side and work out all the legal arrangements before the fight just to make sure we're all playing by the same rules. Oh yeah, the other side doesn't play by any rules do they? Hmmm...Well, hey at least when we're putting our boys in the ground we can be proud that we followed the rules and didn't violate anybody's "human rights."

Posted by: Gysgt Mac at November 19, 2005 03:44 AM


War is war. It is not moral but necessary. Like when carpet bombing Germany and Japan it was brutal but necessary. Those who think that they can stop civilian deaths are kidding themselves and cause wars to prolong. Vietnam was winnable if we did what we know was necessary and let the military do it's job. Those who think they can negotiate for peace are only giving the enemy more time to get ready. Read up on your Pre-World War Two history and remember about Hitler and Appeasement. Those who want to restrict the use of this weapon only are giving the terrorists more chances to survive. War will have civilian casualties, it's good to try and limit them but will happen none the less. Let the military do it's job

Posted by: Richard at November 19, 2005 03:34 AM


In reference to suicide bombers not being afraid of anything but missing the target, the thing to remember is that once they're gone, they're gone. Suicide bombers are not a renewable resource. And there are only so many muslims that are willing to be suicide bombers. If they kill themselves faster than they reproduce, and keep in mind that the majority of them are male, the law of diminishing returns comes into play. Sooner or later muslims will run out of suicide bombers, as will palestinians.

Posted by: Kathy at November 19, 2005 02:58 AM


David -

Public discussion about the design, application, and effectiveness of new weapons? Ummm, have you forgotten that concept we call SECURITY? Secrecy keeps men alive on the battlefield. Your idea SOUNDS nice, but we had better not be so naive as to think our enemies will cover their eyes and ears and promise not to peak while we openly debate the relative nicety of our newest means of killing them. Oh, the enemy also has to promise not to develop tactical or technical countermeasures to our weapon until after we use it on them with some degree of regularity- just as if they had no idea it was coming. The fact that they listen in on our "public debate" before fielding our new weapon really just has to be ignored by them, and they have to promise they will forget everything they overheard. Kinda like a "do-over" on a grade school playground.

Your comment: "Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide "we do/do not to use X". Otherwise when the media find do find out as they always do -- not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of covering up." Truth: Guess what - we are covering up... intentionally and with good reason. It's called military security.

Public discussion about the ethics of using a new weapon is ludicrous. Such a discussion is best left to the professionals who live and die by the effectiveness of their weapons and equipment, and best kept behind closed doors. And these discusions take place and are debated vigourously among experts (not novices) in military ethics, history, weaponry, and international law of war. The notion that human rights activists have any clue about what constitutes a "humane" weapon and what doesn't is foolish - here's why ... no lethal weapon is humane, and every lethal weapon is humane. It simply boils down to who pulls the trigger and who writes the history books after the war. For example: Were Fat Boy and Little Boy humane weapons? You bet they were; if you happened to be one of the million plus Marines and soldiers preparing to invade Japan. If, however, you were Japanese and lost your entire family to blast, heat, and radiation in a single afternoon, you might have a different opinion about the humane use of strategic nuclear weapons.

Here is something every Marine learns nowadays in bootcamp: "Combat efficiency: the ability to accomplish a mission with minimal loss of human life (on both sides)minimum expenditure of resources, and minimum collateral damage, in the shortest possible time." That's humane; that's how we do business, and the business does involve killing. If your concern is for the innocent civilians inhabiting a building that gets crushed by a SMAW-NE, ask yourself this question: Why didn't the innocent civilians in the builidng being used by the insurgents just pick up a stout stick and bash the insurgents' heads in? Why do the Marines have to fight a fight these people should be fighting for themselves? If more Iraqis grew some balls and went toe to toe with the bad guys taking over their homes, we wouldn't have to blast their insurgent occupied homes. So your notion about losing hearts and minds every time a civilian gets in the way, stays in the way, or stands around gaping at a firefight is nice copy, but flies in the face of human behavior and good old fashioned common sense.

I don't mean to sound condescending or insulting, but for God's sake - get your head screwed on straight!

Posted by: Major Bob USMC Vet at November 19, 2005 12:51 AM


Ask the Marines on the front line if they need a more humane weapon or a "tool" that will help ensure their survival. For those who think we should use weapons that limit civilian casualities to "win their hearts and minds" I say KMA. Did our enemies use limited and humane weapons when they struck the USS Stark, the USS Samuel B Roberts, the USS Cole, or the attacks on 9/11. Give the troops the tools they need, the authority to use those tools, and leave the bleeding hearts at home.

Posted by: gunner at November 18, 2005 10:04 PM


These and other new exotic weapons are being prepared for use against U.S. populations-- and if you don't think so, some research would substantiate this in part, and with minimal reasoning one can adduce the rest. This isn't going to convert anyone but those already informed, but maybe it will start some thinking. The Pentagon has admitted that it has tested microwave weapons in Iraq that caused the passengers on a bus to shrink to the size of infants (sound familiar to your microwave?), and that police departments in the U.S. can have them, and therefore will. The rationale is that it will only be sting the skin and will be used for crowd control.Other weapons include, sound that can kill, induce vomiting, and scatter enemies running, also supposedly for crowd control; a laser rifle that blinds the enemy, but will only be used in the U.S. for temporary blindness; the use of mercenary forces, usually from other countries who won't have compunction about killing Americans on U.S. soil, and were used in New Orleans during Katrina. These are just a few facts. Now, consider that the President long ago approved an executive order tha sets aside the constitution at his will and imposes martial law (no more rights), and recently said that the so-called bird flu may require "quarantinning" areas of the U.S., even though doctors say the procedure would have "zero value" in an epidemic; so instead, just think military control instead of the word quarantine and you can see what's coming. ONe way or another, all the types who think they won't get my gun "out my my cold dead hands" would be wise to consider that when this happens they won't worry about your guns. They can stand up to a kilometer away and use these weapons that can cover huge areas in one use and render the undesirable population dead or helpless. One of the problems with the media is that they don't examine motives of people; that is, why would anyone do this to their own people, such as Bush or Cheny. The reason is simple, though, statistically speaking, it's unlikely that anyone reading this would believe it. Bush and the Cheney crowd don't actually believe in democracy. They want are preparing to turn the country in a third world nation with 10 percent having lots of mone and the rest poor. Can you see the mounting evidence.For them, democracy is merely organizing behavior to keep you pacificied long enough to gut the economy and get you under control before you figure out that someone has his iron hand on your throat. Believe it. It's coming to a neighborhood near you very soon, marshal law by one euphimism or another, bird flu or some other excuse. By the way, you're not going to be a member of the new club if you survive. Now go have a good burger and a beer and tell yourself it's conspiracy theory crap. Bye.

Posted by: Alfred Knowitall at November 18, 2005 09:46 PM


Holy Crap! I for one, am getting tired of all these "cherries" telling soldiers that war is just too mean. DUH, we know, we're the ones fighting it!

As for the weapon itself, BIG DEAL! It's not the next A-bomb people. All it does (from what I can gather) is add a little punch to increase the internal presures INSIDE a structure, which tend to make the building fall down and go boom. I'd recon that if someone wasn't inside SHOOTING at our soldiers, then the building has nothing to worry about.

Sounds like a much more precise weapon than the million dollar smart bombs, and can be deployed on the ground when needed by the men that need it. Geez....

Posted by: ChemDog at November 18, 2005 08:59 PM


There are times it is difficult to understand why so many in this nation have such a difficult time understanding that there are bad guys trying to kill us, for no other reason than we are US. I say deploy the weapon and use it. War is a serious business and requires serious ordinance, and in the hands of skilled soldiers and marines, fewer of them will be killed or injured while the enemy dwindles down to a force of wimpering ingrates who will sue for peace. Send some of these to Israel as well. Former SSG Ray Grosser, US Army Airborne

Posted by: SSG Ray Grosser at November 18, 2005 05:44 PM


Why do yall ppl worry too much about "civilian" casualties? This is a war for gods sake. Instead of worrying about what this weapon will do too the civilians, think about how it will help our troops. This helps save our own men, just shoot the damn thing and let the insurgents die. By the way, how can u tell the diffrence between a "civilian" and an insurgent from Iraq. U cant. All they have to do is pick up a weapon, shoot our men, drop the weapon and theyre a "civilian" again. So think about it ppl.

Posted by: AJ at November 18, 2005 04:52 PM


Did I read about COWARDS on this side?!?!
Hmm, that reminds me of all the US-Tourists in Europe and elsewhere that are officialy advised to pretend to be Canadian for their own good. Always talking about what a great nation the US is and when it comes to the point where you're asked by your closest allies where you're from, you neglect the very same "great nation"?!?!???
Guess why? It's really a shame. Do you have an idea what that has to do with this site and the comments?

Posted by: LoveUSA at November 18, 2005 04:42 PM


well gentlemen and all of the AMERICAN TAXPAYERS that are paying for EVERYTHING. After reading a number of the comments and trying to decide whether it was even a good idea to post anything at all i decided that maybe just a note would do . i am an honorable discharged u.s. marine of the real viet "[police action]" 67-69 and even "GOD" sent his people to WAR ;you know the JEWS not CHRISTIANS . What nationality is CHRISTIAN ????! Jesus did not sign up christians; He signed up JEWS ,GOD'S people ? !!!!!! Now WAR is not a nicy business , but in the standard vinue of all time each has brought it on themselves ,YES the JEWS too. when you mess up,duh. Who is right GOD-- or you ? ! YES, go ahead --- say it ,from the few comments i read ,supposing that these people are not a majority anyway . DARE GOD --SHAKE YOUR FIST AT HIM !ONLY THE STYLE OF DELIVERY IS DIFFERENT AS I AM NOT PRIVY TO HOW LARGE A THERMO GRENADE WAS AVAILIBLE IN MY DAY . bUT YOU CAN BET A POT OF BOILING OIL WILL STICK TO YOU OFF THE CASTLE WALL . THINK A LITTLE ,BEFORE YOU POST YOUR COMMENTS.[IF YOU CAN AT ALL] P.S. TO THE BRITISH FELLOW ;THANK-YOU FOR YOUR INPUT , SO THAT SOME OF US CAN SEE THAT YOU HAVE SOME REAL ISSUES THAT NEED SOME SERIOUS CONCERN AND OBSERVATION PREFERABLE IN A CONTROLLED FACILITY .AS IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR THE JAPANESE YOU MIGHT BE SPEAKING GERMAN DER DUMCOF KINDER .IF IT WAS NOT FOR LEND LEASE THEY WOULD HAVE WALKED THROUGH LONG BEFORE THE JAPANESE EVENT !!!!!! GET IT? AS IN IRAQ ,IF AT LEAST ,THE BRITISH HAD GOT OFF THEIR TEA AND CRUMPET AND THE AMERICAN RUMSFELT [WHO HAS THE INVOICES FOR THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION THAT WE DID SELL TO SADDUMB IE. CHEM/BIO] GOT OFF THEIR DUFFS AND DID THE JOB CORRECTLY EVEN THIS WAR WOULD NOT BE AS BAD AS IT IS ! LEGO-LETUS MAKE A VIETNAM ! WHAT PART OF SOLIDIER DID THIS SQUICKY WHEEL DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND---THIS IS NOT A GAME ! A VERY OFFENSIVE WORD ! THE SPOILS OF WAR AND GREED ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS . THOUGH THE MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT AND INDEED MY BLESSING EVEN IF THEY ARENOT VERY GOOD AT IT THEY HAVE EXPOSED THE CITIZENS THOSE THINGS THAT AS OWNERS/TAXPAYERS WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW, REGARDLESS IF THE GOVERNMENT THINKS WE NEED OR ARE COMPETENT TO KNOW . WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DECIDE THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE CHARGE OF THEIR COUNTRY THEN WILL THINGS BE AS WE SAY THEY ARE -----THE LAND OF THE FREE------! THE WHOLE U.S. CITIZENSHIP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT ! NOT JUST BUSH ! ETC.SO IF YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MINORITY SQUICKY WHEEL AND MAKE RULES TO APPEASE THEM YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE?!?!?!?!
EVER USE A SHAPE CHARGE TO TAKE OUT A BUILDING OR BUILD ONE? EVER RUN A BULLDOZER TANK IN ONE SIDE AND OUT THE OTHER ? FOO-GAS WILL STICK TOOOOOOO YOU ? !
IF YOU GO TO WAR--DO IT--RIGHT . HUMANITARIAN COMES AFTER YOU CLEAR GROUND TO TO HOLD THOSE WHO 'CLAIM' TO BE CIVILIAN? WITH A PICTURE AND PRINTS [AND NON-PAROLE PRISON/DEATH] FOR THOSE THAT BREAK IT AND CLEAN SLATE FOR THE REST COMBATANTS! PRISON WORK FARM FOR FOR THE SURRENDERS.----------OR DO IT YOUR WAY AND SEND IN THE HUMANITARINS------FIRST THEN THE SOLIDERS !!!!!!!!!! HA HA MAYBE TRY THE "NEW?" SOUND GUN ON A CRUISE SHIP ??????????????????? WHAT?! REAL SEASONED COMBAT WARRIOR ! RICK

Posted by: roberts at November 18, 2005 03:11 PM


this is unreal! Who runs the show the marines or the public perception of the stronger but more friendly corp. I mean thisa is a war last time I checked? this is unreal that you are debating this. If it has this capacity not having to go in and fight through the kill house so be it. The casualty rate goes down all the better. It is sad that the press has more power. We are fighting animals with no regard for us. IT is written that in war you destroy your enemy his family and his offspring so that you never have to fight them again and you never create the idea of extremism so that you are feared and you eliminate the possibiltiy resistance you deal with them with the iron fist. this idea of the good war and more friendly war no colateral damage this type war cannot be won. Besides I dont understand who all of that american oil got under all of that Iraqi sand

Posted by: peter at November 18, 2005 03:02 PM


The thermobaric weapon gives the assault Marine or Soldier a better chance of their survival rather than the finatic(s) inside a house or bunker. The people our troops are fighting do not play by the International Laws of War, yet our forces have to. As for Human Rights and collateral damage, this is war, not pattycake. Unfortunately civilian casualties will continue no matter how careful our combat forces are. I would like to see some of the Human Rights activists a fire fight and see just what they would to.

Posted by: James USMC Retired at November 18, 2005 02:58 PM


What a pussy weapon my super soaker cause more pwnage than that!

Posted by: Rowdyroddy at November 18, 2005 12:57 PM


WOW, How did a conversation about a wonderful new weapon turn into a debate about assumed lies by the government. This is a wodnerful new weapon and it is less intrusive than dropping a 500 LBS smart bomb in the midle of a city to root out some terrorists that took over a family dwelling because they are to scared to stand and fight like men. If those civilians in question would become more active in there own preservationa and help root out the insurgents then they would be less likely to be hurt in this conflict and it could and would get much better for them much quicker. Casualties happen both Military and civilian. It is completly obvious to me that their fellow citisend (the Insergence) don't care about their safety or wellbeing so why should we.

Posted by: Chops at November 18, 2005 12:38 PM


I work in a field where I see different rounds of ammunition every day. I see absolutley NOTHING WRONG with using these weapons. It helps us marines "arrange the meeting" without putting us in direct contact with the enemy. We are sworn to protect this country from all enemies foriegn and domestic. The new SMAW-NE is just helping us do it faster and better.

Where does the line end between Civilians and combatants? If a 6 year old child picks up a rifle, is he still a civilian or is he a combatant now? I guess it all depends on who you are and what you believe. I think that if you pick a a weapon to fire it you no longer have the protection of being classified a civilian.

As far a the civilian cassualties go, If you want to stay in a war ridden area and you end up dieing, it is for a greater good.

So I say if you got it, use it.

OohRahh

Posted by: 2311bombsquad at November 18, 2005 12:11 PM


Give it a month and the Iraqis will be shooting them at us too.

Posted by: GW Bush at November 18, 2005 12:04 PM


This weapon seems to be very similiar in effect to a fuel-air explosive used as the warhead of a standard infantry rocket. For an individual soldier this is probably useful.
However this seems to be an ideal terrorist weapon for use against skyscrapers in American cities. (Even the poorest shot ought to be able to hit a skyscraper from 100 yards.)
(The skyscraper would survive - but many of the occupants on the targeted floor would not.)
If I was an exec of a firm offering terrorist insurance I would be worried about this weapon as clones of it will soon be in the hands of the bad guys. It will probably not be good news for the soldiers in Iraq either as the same type of warhead could be used in a mortar for the shoot and run attacks on US bases.

Posted by: Duncan Macdonald at November 18, 2005 11:52 AM


It's been a while, but back when I was shuffled through the MCT arm of the SOI, we were taught leading with M203 frag rounds followed closely by CS was a really effective way to screw with the enemy (start the bleeding, deny first aid and produce non-OODA loop movement... pop-'em when they exit into your field of fire).

I also remember the humanitary bullshit about the 50cal being verbotten agains individual combatants. It's a running joke among those who inhabit the professions involving combat arms.

The reality is *ANY* and *EVERY* weapon is authorized during times of war. What oppoents of the US need to remember is that we are the *ONLY* nation to have *EVERY* have used nuclear weapons in the process of making war... twice. What make *ANYONE* think a simple bunker buster would be a subject of contraversy?

Posted by: anonymoustroll at November 18, 2005 11:41 AM


I really don't care how much you dislike the government, or thier policies, but to take tha dislike and anger and put it on the troops is stupid. They are doing what they are told to do to the best of thier ability. You don't like it VOTE. Thanks to the troops we can do that.

Semper Fi MARINES

Posted by: thatfigures at November 18, 2005 11:37 AM


Cpl. Dwayne Hicks:
I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Posted by: Jim Webb at November 18, 2005 10:58 AM


Hey Mikey Boy, get over the civilian casualties crap. With war comes Casulties. There were over 30,000 civilian casuaties in the liberation of the Frenchies in WW II. The amount occuring today is in proportion with the modern day equivelant weaponry used. (aka better precision, less collateral damage)
But I digress. You didn't hear the frenchies bitch one bit about civillian casualties when we liberated their sorry asses, as shouldn't, and neither should the people of any other country in which American blood has been shed for for thier freedoms, which should cover pretty much most of the European continent.

This a War on Terrism now, Civillian casulties happen. We had ours on 9/11, Spain and England had theirs also, so don't ask me to weep for the people who are accidental victims of combat, unlike our civiilian casualties.

Whatever it takes get it done with as little loss to American troops as possible. If new weapons help, more power to them.

Semper Fi Fellow dogs

Posted by: Wild Snide at November 16, 2005 10:44 AM


To all the service men and weman on this page thanks for the hard work an Sacrafice you make every day..........As for every one else who has a problem with them. Why dont you try walking in there shoes for just one day. Then you will change your tune and have a little respect for YOUR service men and weman.

Posted by: PFC Runnels USMC at November 16, 2005 10:36 AM


The ists are trying to take over the world and we have to ask permission to shoot. The military lost officers in VN because of stupidity. Have the Marines turned into a bunch of wimps? Tell the world and the UN to go to the HOT place.Either that or become an anti-Christ muslim!
I'm a Vet.

Posted by: Nick at November 16, 2005 10:02 AM


Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry if you thought I was accusing you of using the term raghead. I wasn't clear about it, but I was actually responding to what 'bones' wrote at 06:50 AM.

I have no problem with using a weapon that will save the life of any soldier against any other solider or terrorist, but not at the expense of civilian castualties on either side.

For the record I am neither American or British (although I hope to become a british citizen someday). I come from a country who doesn't support the war in Iraq, although we have troops in Afghanistan, and have been doing work in Iraq to help the rebuilding.

Posted by: Michael at November 16, 2005 09:13 AM


"You ask people to care about AMERICAN lives. It is precisely because of these attitudes that people like me project our anger about the lies and actions of the US administration onto the US soldiers.

I accept that by expressing a preference over who should die if given a choice is a bit tasteless. Perhaps it would make it less tasteless if I also said that I regard a US soldiers life as worth more than any terrorist, anyone who supports terrorism, or anyone expressing a view that killing heaps of people including those 'ragheads' is a good thing."

I NEVER said killing heaps of people was good and I never used the raghead word. What I meant was using a weapon that can save ONE American life is WELL WORTH using.

I think projecting YOUR anger on the troops is exactly the problem we are having today. You may not agree with the war, you may not like Bush or the way our government is run. BUT, the soldiers are doing what they are told. They believe as we did during Vietnam that we doing our patriotic duty and came home and had rocks thrown at us, etc. Blame the administration, the government NOT the soldiers. If you are really upset write your congressmen(women), senators etc. These Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy, National Guard, Reserves men and women are the reason we can sit on the Internet and complain. Something EVERYONE on this discussion should remember!

Posted by: Tom at November 16, 2005 09:02 AM


Well I was in the Civil War and back then we Mariners didn't need no stinking fuel-air-bomb to kill a dirty reb. I would march right up to him and bite his face off. That's all needed was my legs and my chompers. Leave that pansy crap to the enemy. HOO-HOO ka chew

And to you Brits. Check the Score Board mates. Last time I checked we kicked your butts out of our country. Not to mention the fact that we seem to be coming around every twenty years or so to save your fish and chip eatin lives. So go have some tea and leave the fightin' to the real men.

HOOTER-HO,

Mariners!

Semper-Fimper

Posted by: the heretic at November 16, 2005 08:46 AM


You ask people to care about AMERICAN lives. It is precisely because of these attitudes that people like me project our anger about the lies and actions of the US administration onto the US soldiers.

I accept that by expressing a preference over who should die if given a choice is a bit tasteless. Perhaps it would make it less tasteless if I also said that I regard a US soldiers life as worth more than any terrorist, anyone who supports terrorism, or anyone expressing a view that killing heaps of people including those 'ragheads' is a good thing.

Posted by: Michael at November 16, 2005 08:44 AM


To Mike Doyle:

I have nothing against the British, and I have worked directly with the British Royal Marines, but I would never...ever...make the mistake of saying anyone is better than United States Marines. As far as everyone wanting to be like the British...name 5 great American movies...name me the current fashion trends in America....name me 5 people in political positions in America....My point exactly. I can't name you any of that for Britian so who wants to be who??. Oh yeah, and we brush our teeth.

With that said, thank you guys for all your support in Iraq and don't take advantage of all we have done for you.

Posted by: Sgt. A USMC at November 16, 2005 08:44 AM


ok and what about the possibility of these weapons falling into enemy hands ?
i would say that this possibility would be enough reason to not use it in iraq.

also i was against the war from the moment it became clear that bush wanted to attack iraq.
it was because i already knew that iraq would be a shooting gallery for foreign terrorists.
saddam actually kept them out of iraq but bush kicked open the doors for them.
if even i a 20 year old dutchman knew this then i am certain the bush administration knew it aswell.

its always sad to see soldiers fighting a pointless war they can never hope to win.

Posted by: andries at November 16, 2005 08:38 AM


Truly pathetic when someone says we should check with lawyers first. People are getting to the point where they believe an Iraqi civilians life is worth more than an American Military life. THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!! If we can save American lives by using this weapon then this is a positive thing. When we have to talk to lawyers first during a war this is a negative thing. The reasons for being in this war is irrelevant at this point and for the purposes of this discussion. Use ANY weapon that can save AMERICAN lives......

Posted by: Tom at November 16, 2005 08:32 AM


Get Permission to save our beloved Military Lives.
Get real. I can't believe after everything we have been fighting for, this new weapon is a big surprise. Get over it. Our MEN AND WOMEN are over there trying to save lives and HONOR our Commander In Chief's requests. You need to not forget what started this war. How they destroyed lives of innocent Americans. To many People are forgetting that. I say Good Luck and Carry on.

Posted by: Kimberly at November 16, 2005 08:23 AM


What comes around....goes around. g

Posted by: g at November 16, 2005 08:21 AM


Dear 'bones',

I realise that you are a bit angry about attacks on your belief that the lives of soldiers are more important than those of civilians. Contrary to what you wrote, I am not happy that 'so many americans are dieing'. Every time I hear about a soldier dieing I feel sympathy for their family. I also feel sympathy for the families of the civilians in Iraq who are killed. Given the choice of which should die is a stange thing to think about. Most people posting on this site seem to have no concern for the civilians who have little choice in the matter. I argue that it is far better for a small number of soldiers to die doing a job that you obviously believe in, than for a large number of innocent civilians. The argument that there are no innocent civilians in war is a poor one. Just as you say it is easy to talk about things while I am safe, it is easy for people to talk about collatoral damage while they are safe. Would they be happier about their families dieing if it was only collatoral damage?

You use the term ragheads. If you are refering to terrorists, I would suggest you take a trip to Ireland or Oklahoma and see if the IRA, and Protestant terrorist or Tim McVeagh (sp?) wore as you call it rags on their head. If you are refering to anyone of middle eastern descent, then I can make no argument against you. I would argue your words are the only argument I need.

You also mention the veterans. I have a lot of respect for the men and women who worked and fought to keep the world safe from tyranny. I value the sacrifice made by members of my family and my wife's. You might like to know that there are a lot of veterans who do not share your views about the war. Take a quick look at http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php and see what they have to say.

You owe it to your troops to do the best you can to bring them home as soon as reasonably possible. I have no problem with activity to remove the scourge of terrorism on our planet. But calling it a war yet not going to congress suggests that the US administration did not feel they had a good case.

What exactly is the mission of the troops? Wasn't it the neutralisation of the WMD threat that Saddam so obviously posed. Or is it the well thought out plan for combatting terrorism by engaging in the wonderful business of urban warfare.

Posted by: Michael at November 16, 2005 08:18 AM


My initial thought is, it looks like an impressive new tool; one that can help keep Marines and soldiers alive. First and foremost, I believe that to be the ultimate end result that we are looking for.
I can add this from my own experience, no American serviceman goes into theatre with the intent to kill innocents. In fact, I have personnally witnessed servicemen and women risk their necks to provide medical care for a local civilian after a terrorist attack. While we were still fighting an enemy who was hiding inside a concrete building, a medic raced across a street and without any cover pulled a wounded child and a wounded man out of the line of fire. I can not believe that my brothers at arms would chance killing innocents unless it were absolutely necessary to the survival of themselves, and I believe that most commanders would weigh that choice hard before they make that call.
So, when considering the knowledge and creativity of the leadership of the United States military, I have no misgivings about sending them to war with this tool. I only wish that we had this weapon available while I was there. If so, I would still be there fighting alongside my comrades instead of sitting here in a wheelchair going to funerals and responding to some chatter on a damn message board.

Posted by: Joshua Hays at November 16, 2005 08:18 AM


Looks like a great weapon to me. I was in Vietnam and as far as I am concerned the best weapon was Napalm, it always made me feel good to feel the heat. So if they can't use Napalm, then I guess this will work. And to Old Devil Dog, Semper Fi!!! and I am with you, send the peace lovers over and see what progress they can make from the front lines. Our Marines and all the services are doing a great job over there. I commend them for carrying on our great tradition.

Posted by: Bob Kelly at November 16, 2005 08:18 AM


I agree with Sgt A USMC, being a former marine I think that we should send every last one of these so called anti war / tree hugging liberals over to Iraq and Afganistan and put them on the front line and see how long they stick to those passive ideals.
Give our Marines the tools to get the job done or just give them the location and they will improvise over come and adapt to any situation.

Happy Birthdday Marines...
Semper Fi!!!!!

Posted by: Old Devil Dog at November 16, 2005 08:09 AM


I enjoy starting and ending the day crushing people under rubble. Also, screw the trees too. Haven't scientists figured out a way we can live with out the blasted things. If I have one more fit of hay fever I will burn the things down myself. They can all be NUKED with the women and children of the god hated, freedom hating 3rd world. I am white, christian, adult, male who comes from a wealthy back ground and I am just simply better than most of them. BURN EM'

Is there any way I can get one of these weapons? Doesn't Walmart carry'em for hunting yet?

the heretic

Posted by: the heretic at November 16, 2005 08:02 AM


the U.S.marines are pretty damn good but not as good as our British Royal marines,even if one of our guys has no weapon at all he can destroy enemy positions using things that people have left lying about,and then make off into the desert like he didnt exist,you see Britain is better than anyone else,because we are British,and thats a fact,In fact everyone wants to be British,even Johhny Arab,but thats where we British draw the line,it simply wont do,so we dont mind our American chums mucking in ,in the middle east,by bumping off these backward ,sheeps eye munching ,rag headed desert mongrels you're doing us British a big favour,anyway you speak our language,I think you deserve to be made into honourary British citizens,and seeing as though our Queen owns your federal reserve bank,and our Prime minister gets on well with George W ,we might as well all be British,then everone else will have to follow suit,it makes sense to be British,because Britain is the best place on the planet,and London is the best place in Britain.

Posted by: mike doyle at November 16, 2005 08:00 AM


I am not at all impressed with the terrible weapons of death used by American war criminals in the illegal war against the innocent Iraqi people. For death comes to use all sooner or later. What impresses me though is the stupidity of young American men and women who unneccesarily fight, get wounded and die as proxy soldiers for big oil and Israel. Every American soldier who was and is in Iraq today has had some exposure to DU aerosols. Sooner or later many if not all will succumb to this extremely deadly poison. An early death is a given for those who foolishly ventured to fight in Iraq. American soldiers showed no mercy nor will they receive mercy as the minute quantities of radiation eat away at their bodies. DU is the great leveler.

Posted by: grim reaper at November 16, 2005 07:59 AM


I enjoy starting and ending the day crushing people under rubble. Also, screw the trees too. Haven't scientists figured out a way we can live with out the blasted things. If I have one more fit of hay fever I will burn the things down myself. They can all be NUKED with the women and children of the god hated, freedom hating 3rd world. I am white, christian, adult, male who comes from a wealthy back ground and I am just simply better than most of them. BURN EM'

Is there any way I can get one of these weapons? Doesn't Walmart carry'em for hunting yet?

the heretic

Posted by: the heretic at November 16, 2005 07:58 AM


Looks like a Bazooka to me.

Been there. Done that.
(Beautiful French Indo-China Nov.'68 til Apr.'70)

Posted by: CodyK9 at November 16, 2005 07:52 AM


Yeah, I agree. These weapons are awesome. Nothing like crushing Iraqi women and children under rubble to start the day. It's not necessarily American soldiers' lives vs. Iraqi houses and civilians, you know. There's always the "don't kill people and get the fuck out of their house" option.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward at November 16, 2005 07:48 AM


You God damned tree huggers are amazing. Leave America to the highly-trained motivated young Marines and you can hug your tree and bash Bush all you want.

I can't believe how much time you half-fags spend reading "our" comments when you wouldn't find me dead on the "How you can save a fucking tree" comment page.

If you can read this thank a teacher....If you can read this in English thank a Marine!!!

Semper Fi Devil Dogs, tree hugging is the opinion of less than half of Americans....The election showed us that!!!!!!

Posted by: Sgt. A USMC at November 16, 2005 07:43 AM


Mr. Depman,

I see no reason to "debate" these issues with liberals like you. First you have no idea of what is really happening in the field and therefore are just whining. I have read a lot of comments here that I agree with, some that I don't and I have "TRIED" to discuss these issues with people like you. What I have found is that you and others like you are just ignorant of the real truth. Being ignorant isn't a bad thing, I'm ignorant of certain things, I would not attempt to debate brain surgery with a brain surgeon because I'm ignorant of that issue. I am not stupid though, if I REALLY thought there was an issue to be debated I would study and learn, THEN discuss the issue. What makes you and others stupid is that you absolutely REFUSE to learn anything. You would rather wallow in your ignorance and write letters that only prove to others that you are. You are NOT intelligent, as you presume yourself to be. I will not discuss the issue of whether the SWAM-NE is good or bad, though I think it is great, what I will address is your extremely limited knowledge on the subject of war. I am just an average guy, work everyday at a job I like. I am a Vietnam Vet whose belief is that people like you cost thousands of American lives there and continue to try to kill Americans in Iraq. You celebrate everytime an American dies, throw a party when we lose yet another war. People like you have weakened America to the point that people like Bin Laden are no longer afraid to attack us. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we HAVE to win this war? I just don't understand your philosophy, these people (terrorist)are not going to lay down their weapons if we lay down ours, they will only use that moment to attack us. I think it was Abraham Lincoln that said "It is better to remain silent and be considered a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". You may be a "hero" in your circles Mr. Depman but to true Americans, those of us who have fought and lost friends, you are nothing but a traitor. Again Abraham Lincoln said during the Civil War (paraphrased) "Those who speak or act in a manner that hurts the morale of American troops should be hanged". I fully agree with Mr. Lincoln.

Posted by: Echo4Sierra at November 16, 2005 07:42 AM


After reading cowicides entries I think it might do us all well to look at it again.
I think he is hitting alot closer to home than even he knows, In doing so he is treading close to some very dangerous waters. The war in the middle east is "justifiable", But not for the reasons that the public has been told. To delve any deeper into that area would run the risk of coming up MIA one morning. Suffice to say that there are some very evil people in this world, Much more so than Hitler, Tojo, Saddam, Charley Manson,and all the rest could ever hope to be, No I'm not referring to our "elected politicians" Those clowns are just a bunch of puppets on a string.
There are a few still around who are aware of the true agenda behind all the mess. If the general populace knew what was really going on in their own back yard it would cause total chaos! (As there will be a loss of a few sheep to apease the wolves, best not alarm the entire heard from their slumber lest we lose many more to pandimonium)

Posted by: bones river rat at November 16, 2005 07:42 AM


I want to see more weapons like this,more often,and I want one for the kids to play with,I dont want to have to say to my kids NO!,I want to give them the best,newer better weapons,more available to more of the free world,I want my kids taught how to destroy things properly,I think schools should start teaching them how to kill early,at the age of 13 they should all have m16s ,and if theyre good they should get a SMAW on their 18th,I was gonna say 16,but that would be irresponsible cos theyre too young,I didnt get my first minigun till I was 21 !! ,,these days theyre spoilt !!!

Posted by: ste fargher at November 16, 2005 07:39 AM


With the technology the United States has, there isn't one reason why we should have lost one soldier and the sad part about it is that the war isn't being fought to keep our freedom in the United States. This war has grown into nothing having to do with the U.S. and our freedom and our soldiers are getting killed. If the government were truly trying to get terrorists, it could have been done by special forces which just shows this war has some political agenda we don't know about. It would be nice if our government supplied our soldiers with the weapons they need. I bet if they (government officials) were made to go over there and fight, they'd have the best, greatest and latest equipment which should be given to all of our soldiers. Our soldiers should have whatever technology they need to get the job done and protect them.

Posted by: Wendy at November 16, 2005 07:33 AM


War is voilent and destructive, but for those on the front line involved in carrying out the "dirty work", it is imperative that he or she be given the "best" in order that they can survive and accomplish their assignment.

It is a kill or be killed situation, if it were otherwise, it would proablly be called "power puff football".

Semper Fi!

Posted by: J. Love (USMC ret.) at November 16, 2005 07:31 AM


Don't see a problem here. Blind them , blast them, burn them - worked at Tarawa and it apparently still works today. Much more simple and efficient than a precision guided weapon (missile/bomb) - but wait - last time I checked, a direct fire weapon in the hands of US Marine is a precision weapon.

Posted by: Rich at November 16, 2005 07:24 AM


"Uncle George"... that's cute. You really don't have a clue, do you Arrogant?

Posted by: Jack at November 16, 2005 07:23 AM


For all those squawking about not being opposed to a war as long as it is justified,,,I would ask, How the hell does the aspect of justfication have anything to do with war???
War is the result of the failure of justification!

Posted by: bones river rat at November 16, 2005 07:12 AM


I got it. We can do away with these cool tech weapons and just give the marines nets. YEAH! We could capture those SAND NIGGAZ and then torture them to death. Maybe bring them back to America so every house hold has an Arab to torture and spit on. That will teach those women and children too blow up my twins. "Spit on the brown guy little Julie" "good girl"

Posted by: the heretic at November 16, 2005 07:03 AM


Who Would Jesus Bomb?
Jesus, save yourself from the gory gloryseekers, who use your name in death.
Allah, the same goes for you.

Posted by: realist at November 16, 2005 06:52 AM


I noticed that several entrants in this forum evidently are happy that so many americans are dieing because "They signed up for it" I can only wish that some day You might find yourself in MY crosshairs. All I can say is that any spinless COWARD can sit in an office 1/2 mile from a bomb blast and deride their government and rightfully so, Just keep in mind that your right to do that was paid for by the Blood of young armed forces troops (Both American as well as English) and as I mentioned before neither YOU nor anyone else on this planet has the right to say even one miserable utterance against them.
Why don't you take a short jaunt down to your local Pub, find one of your local disabled veteran Royal Marines and tell him and his mates that you value a bunch of ragheads over people like him! Unless you feel THAT convinced that you are right and the rest of us are wrong, I would suggest that you consider taking up residence in Iraq, I'm sure the "Insurgents would welcome another sniveling COWARD into their midst!
As I mentioned earlier, It is my contension that whether we like it or not WE ARE AT WAR and WE OWE it to our troops to support them in any and every way possible to the compleation of their mission, otherwise WE are not worthy of their efforts!!
In closing, I would like to pose a question, How many of you contribute on a regular basis to the U.S.O.??? If you haven't now is a good time,,think about it???

Posted by: bones river rat at November 16, 2005 06:50 AM


Heretic nobody wants to be a part of the USA, except Mexico, and they are moving in already. So we don't have to bother with annexing anybody, we can just get on with using these Nukes we've had sitting around, going to waste all these years.

Anyaway, it the Armageddon, and we are supposed to do it. Thats what my uncle says. Uncle George that is.

Posted by: Arrogant American at November 16, 2005 06:45 AM


I believe that the more power you can prove you have, the less you're enticed to use it. The only caveat is having a morally/ethically stable person in charge of when and how it's used. I can trust the guys pulling the trigger to make the right decision, I'm just not so sure they'll have the ability to exercise that decision.

Posted by: Todd at November 16, 2005 06:45 AM


We have gotten rid of all those sissy Geneva Conventions and International Bans on Torture. There is no reason we shouldn't just Nuke the Towel Heads. Nuke the whole lot of them.

Then we can sleep safer in our beds and not live in cowering terror all the time.

Besides they have our oil, and they were selling it for the wrong kind of money. They can sell the oil but they can only sell it for American Dollars of course. How the hell can we run the world if people start selling their oil for other currencies. That's like, pretending that oil was theirs in the first place. It aint. That oil is American Oil, or it soon will be.

Posted by: Arrogant American at November 16, 2005 06:38 AM


What happens when you put a powerful weapon in the hands of savages? Total destruction of everything in sight. It is good however that recruiting for the military services is down. People are finally getting smart.

Posted by: Joseph at November 16, 2005 06:32 AM


We should anex all the countries that wish to become part of the United States and NUKE the rest of those muthaz. Might makes right baby! Then we can bring all the boys home and make them police to control the nation with an iron fist. If you don't like it then you get kicked out into the toxic wastlands.

It all is to much for my brain. Forget thinking, I am going to church.

PRAISE THE LORD

Posted by: the heretic at November 16, 2005 06:26 AM


If it kills more people and better, like all good Americans I'm all for it.

But nobody else is allowed to have them, that would be terrorism.

Posted by: Arrogant American at November 16, 2005 06:17 AM


I have a son and a nephew who are both Army Infantry. Hooah! If this weapon keeps them and their buddies alive while they dispatch Islamic Terrorists.............give it to them and let them use it. If the Marines or Army are coming to town to clear it of Jihaddies anyone in their right mind not involved (ie. civilians) will clear out. The rules of engagement are pretty simple. Don't shoot at our troops and our troops won't use the weapons given to them. In the mean time use what you have to get the job done and get home safe.

Posted by: Dan Hughes at November 16, 2005 06:15 AM


I would far rather that American soldiers die during operations than Iraqi citizens. The soldiers signed up for this. If the cost of war is too high for the U.S. then it is quite simple. Don't go to war. 11/9 (Notice the U.K. date) he was an invitation to come over and get involved in an unwinnable war.

The U.S. would have been far better to concentrate on intelligent responses to terrorism. The 'Yee Haa' response is unworthy of the people in New York, a lot of whom will probably be appalled at the descision to lie to the U.S. people in the case for going to war. When most of the world is against you when even after you have been attacked in a vicious way, your case is probably very poor.

I have no problem with wars being fought when the justification is there, I don't mind weapons that kill effectively.

For those of you who would love to dismiss my comments on the 'You don't know what it was like' basis. I live in London, and work about 1/2 mile from where a couple of the bombs went of on 7th July. I felt angry with the people who did it. I also felt angry with the U.K. and U.S. governments for their incompentence when dealing with terrorism.

Posted by: Michael at November 16, 2005 06:06 AM


Don`t need and do not want anymore wars.But if we have anything that can be used by our kids to do thier job. I`m for it,100%.I remember when we went from C`s to Long Rats,we all thought that was the greatest thing.Humping the gun in a Force Recon team,meant I could carry more ammo.More bullets,lighter beans just wonederful. SF

Posted by: RUBEN at November 16, 2005 05:56 AM


No question in my mind if the new thermoberic device should be used if it helps save just one American life. The big danger lies in keeping this device out of the hand of potentially hostile forces through illegal arms trade or enemy capture. Perhaps integrating the device with a digital arming code and basic failsafe devices deployed previously in similar unconventional devices may be in order. Thermoberic devices are under development and will not go away so protocal for their use must be established.

Posted by: Night Eagle at November 16, 2005 05:32 AM


I found Cowicides comments to be somewhat biased, after clicking on his profile I discovered just how bitter it is.
Personally, whether this war was justified or not(And I still believe it was/is) is immaterial at this point. What matters is that our Marines, soldiers, etc. are in harms way and if there is ANY weapon system available to give them an advantage it would be criminal not to deploy it.

Posted by: zonabill at November 16, 2005 05:22 AM


After reading through these posts I can see where this is a very worthy topic for debate. It causes me to wonder though, how effective would ANY of our forces be at doing their ASSIGNED duties were they required to hesitate until their actions, methods or equipment choices passed muster of the debate teams??
I do agree 110% with the comments by Guyiniraq, along with the sentiments of the others who are actually there and daily putting their ass on the line so that old farts like us can sit comfortably in our homes spouting our oppinions.
While I do not agree with our involvment in governing other countries (when we can't even govern ourselves) The simple fact of the matter is, Agree or not, like it or not, There ARE Americans in combat situations on a daily basis in a very HOSTILE enviroment,None of these people are there because they woke up one morning and had the thought, Hey , I think I will just hop over to this sespool and play alittle war today. These people are there due to the fact that they , for what ever reason took on the task of defending this country(against All enemies both foreign and domestic)Plain and simple they are there doing the dirtiest job on earth so that in the near future we won't have to take on the task in our front yards. As long as these few brave men and women are doing that job. No one, absolutly NO ONE has the right to do or say anything that can even remotly be construed as detrimental to their mission, this including every American citizen from the Pres. on down to the homeless guy at the shelter.
As a Nam Vet I remember some of the Hanoi Jane crowd squawking about how we were conducting the war there. I also remember the effect it had on the moral of many of the guys when they came home to have people spit on them, I was called a baby burner by a group of college students on my first leave home (From Scotland)thats right, I was in the Navy. some of those students were kids I grew up with and went to high school with. The difference in them and me was that their families had enough money to send them off to school, My family has a strong history of military service and sense of Honor,I also volenteered for duty on pbrs&swifts in the delta. The point I am getting at is, YES we should have strong, informed debate about matters that affect our lives, but I think that we have , for the most part become a nation of soft asses who are happy to let "Somebody else worrie about the problems" We OWE our troops better than that! They are there defending YOU and ME, our nation, We OWE it to them and all who served before them to make this a nation worth defending. The place to start doing that is to start holding these politicians accountable for their actions and all the dirty little deeds they are pulling on the people of this country!
I know, this is supposed to be a new global economy and the begining of a new world order, and I'm sure that all the huggy feelies around are just tickled pink about it. I wonder how they will feel when they look out their window one morning to find all the troops with the blue helmets going through their neighborhood rounding up all the "subversives"? The longer we hold on to the attitude that "Oh, that could never happen here" the closer and more probable the time will come when we are all saying "OH SHIT!!!!! it has happened HERE!. Don't think it is so? Talk to someone who survived the Blitz in London.
A very wise gentleman taught me long ago that there is only one effective way to combat terrorists, You must terrorize them into complete and utter submission, otherwise you only serve to fuel their cause! Right wrong or indifferent it holds true.
It is high time we stopped pissing around with these ragheads and let our troops do their job. As far as I am concerned, any body else in the world that doesn't like it can Kiss OFF Lest we send our troops to visit YOU next!!
I may have stepped on some toes here, or possibly offended a couple of bleeding hearts, but I have an idea that my fellow Patriots understand where I am coming from,,, as for the rest of you ,,, Well, you matter less than a piss ant to us, and your oppinions even less!
Just my Oppinion, To me, all the raghead lives in the world are not worth even one drop of Marine Blood! However, even one raghead drop of blood is worth a million times more than the lives of all the politicians and Oil Barrons put together. SEMPER FI Brothers and Sisters, Keep up the Good fight and come home soon!

Posted by: bones river rat at November 16, 2005 05:04 AM


This place has a high proportion of fascist idiots and apologists for wholesale terror.

The war on terror is the war on terra, and is being fought for oil and resources against the people of the world.

You boys and your toys live in a moral vacumn.

100 000 killed in gulf war3.
1 000 000 killed in gulf [not]war2
150 000 killed in gulf war1.

And you armed, supported politically and advised the Iraq gov. right up until the last possible moment. Your own gov. employees made $millions from the deal.

And yet ...

You think killing american citizens oppossed to the war is a more just solution than analyzing the total lies and greed that promotes bushes imperilalist aggression?

You are devorced from reality.

Reality will not allow this.

America is heading for a big fall, and the rest of the world await with baited breath and hope in their weary bloody hearts.

Posted by: jackslucid at November 16, 2005 04:55 AM


"American Lives" are worth more than other lives?

Amazing. Simply Amazing. Has every single American overlooked the fascism in their country, or what ..

Posted by: jay vaughan at November 16, 2005 04:54 AM


I think guys that you are all out of your mind!
What makes you think that when you go to occupy a suvereign country to steal their goods to run your engines,you have got the right to call them terrorist,just beacause their ideas or interests are opposing of yours.Before you think that you are entitled to use these kind of weaponst think of that fact that your army is the only one who ever deployed nuclear weapon at war.Would be better to think that the world has started to rebel against your actions!!Go home and clean up in front of your house first than give lessons to the others.Do not dare to call your mission humanitary mission.Your politicians are crooks and ruthless killers,killers whom are killing they own for they pockets...

Posted by: casey ryback at November 16, 2005 04:53 AM


who proffits from all of this,and why arnt the shit stirring politicians out there fighting,Ill tell you why,because they are laughing all the way to the bank,while mugs like you and me provide them with cannon fodder in the form of ourselves and our offspring,as well as pay many taxes to fund new methods of destruction,In short,go kill yourselves ,while we sit off ,and you can pay us too,SUCKERs
when a human dies they litterally make a killing,and ordanance proffits soar,like class a drugs,they kill you ,and the price keeps going up,hey but arnt they illegal to keep the prices high,,

Posted by: minky moo at November 16, 2005 04:45 AM


I was a SMAW gunner during my enlistment from 94 to 98. I have spent 6 months in Kuwait from Jan to Jul of 98 because of Saddam. BTDT.
With that being said, if the round in question means saving my fellow Marines, I am all for it. I have fired both live rounds currently in use and I see their potential. However, that was seven years ago. The face of battle has changed, as it changes so must we. Our secondary motto is/was Semper Gumby.. Always Flexible. We adapt to the situation. To defeat the threats of today, we must employ the weapons of today. We wanted a Flechette round so bad becaue we knew what it could do and why. Did we get it? nope.
To my brothers in Aco 1/5 wpns... I'm with you every step.

Cpl Andrew, BM A Co. 1/5 0351 Gunner.

Posted by: Bryan Andrew at November 16, 2005 04:35 AM


Wow. How novel--lets keep building bigger bombs and killing more people in this endless cycle called Human History. If there is one thing humans have proven during our brief stint on this planet it is we do not deserve it. NONE of US. Keep building the bombs. Keep justifying the killing. It doesn't solve a damn thing. Us vs. Them vs. Them vs. Us.

Perhaps Mother Nature will take care of all of us one day and no one will have to worry about building the next great bomb.

Liberal. Conservative. Muslim. Christian. Whatever. It is so sad as human beings we all can't wake up in the morning and take in the awe that is sunrise. The awe that is life. Why have we all become so damn desensitized and subhuman?

Posted by: Dr. Strangelove at November 16, 2005 04:05 AM



► Do you have the guts to read all of this? Or... will it hurt your brain too much?

What some of you don't realize is we are trying to save YOUR God damn lives and make America great again as it was before Bush came in and dragged our good name through the mud. The more Iraqi civilians are killed and the more the USA allows torture, the more we lose hearts and minds... and the more we lose hearts and minds, the more the UNITED STATES recruits insurgents and terrorists... and WE recruit not only in Iraq, but all over the World. This is a vicious cycle that will NEVER stop with the INSANE Bush administration "strategy". The same strategy that happens to make a crapload of money for corrupt companies related to them (Halliburton, etc.).

Look, the less we research alternative, renewable domestic energy... the more we will need to kill and be killed to control oil distribution in the Middle East. We'll have to do this to keep our voracious American energy needs maintained.

If you think this battle in Iraq is just about protecting the American way of life... then you are either brainwashed, not very well-read or both at this point. The terrorists have made it very clear that the only reason they attacked the United States was because we occupy their lands. The overwhelming majority of those doing battle right now could give a rat's ass how we live in the West as long as we don't occupy their lands. You are fed a lie that the Middle East (at large) is out to stop Americans from having sex or listening to Black Sabbath. The sad fact is... we occupy the Middle East to help keep control of the oil and they do not want us there.

Yes, there are some terrorists (a small minority) that simply hate the West no matter what we do and we need to root them out, capture and/or KILL THEM. But, that would be a hell of a lot easier if we weren't causing so much ill will and less cooperation throughout the world with our idiotic, poor strategy occupation of Iraq. If we won more hearts and minds around the world, it would be FAR more difficult to find places to hide from us after terrorist attacks like 911, etc. because people that love us would rat the scum out instead of looking the other way or even harboring them.

If attacking Iraq was a humanitarian mission then why the HELL didn't we go into the Congo and stop GENOCIDE as it was happening around the same time?!!! Because there was no money in it for the Bush administration cronies, that why. I'm sorry if your pansy ass can't cope with this sick, sad, evil fact. I'm sorry if this wrecks your mind. I'm sorry if this challenges all of your brainwashing... but you need to know the truth about why the USA is in Iraq because these lies you are being fed is hurting America.

Oh, and Bush trying to rewrite history and say that everyone (Democrats, etc.) who supported the Iraq war had all the same information as he did was a LIE. A despicable, obvious lie. Many of us that supported the war only did so because we believed Bush administration lies. Oh, and Bush now lies and says that there was a report that shows they did nothing to screw with pre-war intelligence... haha... ok, brainwashed... I have a challenge for you... If you fvcks are so brave... I DARE YOU... I fvcking DARE YOU to go and find out just WHO did this report. I'll warn you, what you'll find out will hurt your brain. It's like a criminal investigating himself... guess what he'll find? That he's "not guilty" of anything... that's what he'll find.

What we need to do is kill off terrorism by giving them NOTHING TO DO. If the United States spent just a FRACTION of money on domestic energy research instead of the MASSIVE amount of money we spend blowing up brown people... we would not NEED Middle East occupation. The vicious cycle will be BROKEN.

Now shut the fvck up and let us save your lives.

- Cowicide (Extreme Moderate & VERY PROUD American)

Posted by: Cowicide at November 16, 2005 03:47 AM


if you don't think weapons are sold in an open market you're wrong. this will find it's way into the "enemys" hand.

Posted by: robert berencreuz at November 16, 2005 03:29 AM


I think we should take every military in the world,, and set them in Montana. Then give them their choice of a sword, or a boar spear,, then say to them,, "Go at it FELLAS!"

Then,, after they have slaughtered each other for sport,, we could make use of our B-52's , by carpet bombing the survivors.

Posted by: ra_balke at November 16, 2005 02:41 AM


have we forgotten war is hell and people will suffer. It is not intended to be painlees or kind, that is why it should be avoided. But if it can't there can be no second guessing or hesitation.

Posted by: Tink at November 16, 2005 02:35 AM


Hmmm, a half second thermobaric death. Or being stitched head to toe by 7.62 and writhing in pain for the next four hours until finally retiring??? Fellas there is nothing good about any death whatsoever...Fact is until we get the Star trek phaser gun what death is best for both parties is the QUICKEST one. I do not worry much about the moment of death, it is the hours before it that worry me. I had also rather die a brutal instant death over a gutshot anyday. Besides it aint about how good you look as a corpse...A side note worth thinking about though: When the enemies of America has the opportunity to choose we did it is usually torture...Sad how good weapons can bring all this negative publicity when the truth is everyone seems to not see a problem with hurling infintismal lead missles by the hordes tearing ripping and utterly destroying wounding an maiming for life all in its path...BUT god forbid we vaporize those who would destroy us by any means at all possible?????

Posted by: Todd at November 16, 2005 02:18 AM


The Marines have something that puts them on an
even footing with Iraqi Ambush Insurgents, and that's a bad thing!!??? JMJ!! who's side are
these nitwits on. We should give them a leg up
cause Winning isn't playing fair!!?? Screw the
Insurgents. If they take shots at US Troops or
they are ambushing Marines from somebody's house,
Somebody better grow a brain and defend themselves from the Insurgents putting those same people at risk. The cerebral types have way
too much to say. The "Lawyers" should shoulder a
weapon, go on patrol,dig some metal out of their
butts and then, see if their opinions are the same. Otherwise take the advice of Cheech and Chong to Chris Schenkel, "Don't say nothin!!"

Posted by: Tpr. Bloodhound at November 16, 2005 02:06 AM


I don't understand the fuss. Haven't we used Thermobarics in Afghanistan? War has never been pretty or it's weapons,but they are used to achieve the ultimate goal of victory. And if that means using these so called "BRUTAL" weapons to protect our soldiers,Then we have to be "BRUTAL"!

Posted by: Jerome at November 16, 2005 01:47 AM


God Bless America, and save it while you are at it. God Bless our troops. Because here in Iraq we are losing many misinformed young men and women just like I have been in the past. God will you do something about the God fearing President. While you people debate on whether we should be using a HE or overpressure weapon young men and women are here IN Iraq dying because the American people would rather fight each other about "morally correct weapons" but watch the news that we watch everyday at the chow hall in Iraq. Bush lied to take us all here and we should not be here in the first place. Quit debating over the shit that doesn't matter and get acting about the things that do. Start holding people that lie to you accountable for their actions. My fellow countrymen never stop amazing me with the futility of there moronic discussions. But never will some people get to the root of what is the real problem. Politicians play a game of divide and conquer and you people play right into it.

A young soldier was telling me about his experience before we deployed. He was at the DMV turning in a statement of non use on his vehicle. The lady at the counter was talking to him about going to Iraq of course. Well God bless you. Thank you the soldier replies. Well I think we should just bomb the all and be done with it the lady says. The soldier replies well maam we couldnt just go and do that because there are women and children in Iraq that are innocent just like you and me. The lady quips well I dont want you defending me. Have we evolved into such a sinister bunch? I hope not. Just remember while Bush gets on TV and makes quick remarks about War on Terror and Iraq and tries to tie the two together through misleading ambiguous speech. Bush and Cheney have both admitted on National TV that there are NO connections between Saddam and 911. Nope couldnt prove it but even the lily liberals towed the line to get us here. All in all liberals suck they own as much stock in the military industrial complex as conservatives and they hate the Constitution. Conservatives suck because they hold contempt for the very thing they are supposed to uphold but they also hate the Constitution. And while you may Champion Reps over Dems because of taxes or whatever, I dont make six figures a year and my taxes are way up. All of my taxes are up property, state income, and federal income. Wake up America the American dream and your freedom's are being stolen from you while I am here in Iraq and you debate about the shit that really doesn't matter. WAKE UP.

Posted by: GuyinIraq at November 16, 2005 01:41 AM


Kinda gives new meaning to the phrase , kill em all, let GOD sort em out.
Or, kill everyone, GOD will know his own.

Posted by: stewball at November 16, 2005 01:39 AM


war is hell

Posted by: soldier at November 16, 2005 01:30 AM


Also, if the price for a country to enter into war with America is higher because we have more "massively brutal weapons", then all the better. The more they have to think twice (or thrice) before getting into conflicts, the better.

Uh, if I recall, the Iraqis where all just sitting at home having dinner when the US kicked in the door, killed a lot of soldiers (and civilians), deposed the government, annouced martial law, installed a puppet government. And then were shocked that people started riding around in pickup trucks shooting at them.
Yes, I'm sure the world would be a better place for a little more thinking.
The difference between a tool of liberation, and a tool of terror is the intent. And when the US are standing in a sovereign country they have invaded using those tools, it looks remarkably like a terror campaign to suppress a population.

Posted by: scott at November 16, 2005 01:23 AM


As a former Marine officer many years ago, I was told/taught to use the right weapon in the right situation. I don't call for a daisy cutter for a sniper shooting at my unit from a CAP village. But I would call in a daisy cutter on an active regimental base camp.

Public debate about weapons is done at the policy level, not the tactical level. The policy boys, usually civilians, tell us military types to use which weapons in which type of wars. The military types work out the protocols, ROE, for the weapons available in the theater of operations.

Since Bush has decided that we are in nation building mode instead of crush the enemy at all cost mode (remember the scene on the aircraft carrier where he said all major military operations are completed because we won the "destroy the enemy" phase of the Iraqi War), we can only use the weapons that don't kill more of the civilians we are suppose to be protecting than the bad guys.

From the article, it sounds like the protocol for the use of this SMAW-NE weapon is as follows:
If you are taking fire from multiple weapons or crew served weapons from a building/bunker, use the SMAW-NE to remove threat.
If you are taking sniper fire from one or two weapons from a multi-story building and you watch a mama-san (sorry, wrong war) an Iraqi mother herding her children to safety in the same building, you don't fire a SMAW-NE through the door behind her. You call up your own sniper team to take out the enemy snipers. If you are a savvy officer or staff NCO, you know you are suppose to use your best judgment where to draw the line between using each weapon at your disposal.

For you Attention Deficient Hyper-Active types, you don't get to kill civilians just because you are too stupid to know which war you are fighting.

Even the civilian types get it wrong sometimes. For example, US civilians thought it a great idea to deploy the neutron bomb in Europe because it would destroy Soviet armored forces without destroying civilian infrastructure. The Europeans hated the idea because it reduced the horrors of nuclear warfare and made it more likely that nuclear weapons would be used in their own backyard. As it turned out, the Europeans read the Soviet psyche better than the US did.

Posted by: Conan the Younger at November 16, 2005 01:08 AM


Again American facist demonstrate thier wilingness to use illegal weapons in an illegal war. The illegal invaders being killed by the ilegal insurgents, poetic justice!

Posted by: magic at November 16, 2005 01:08 AM


you all are mad about the war in one way or another...right? you either are mad that it is going on or mad that people are mad that it is going on, grow some balls and realize that this is life. we had to fight to become America and we have to fight to stay America! I would rather go to someone elses house and F*ck sh!t up then have them over at my place doin the same. Im a Marine for life. OOOORRRRAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Wadsworth at November 16, 2005 01:05 AM


Lets just use the weapons we have to and bring our troops home safely and not in body bags.I am a viet vet and what do we have to show from that mess. A granite wall with names of many that died in vain....and now we are starting another list from a new conflict. If this is a war than fight it and be finished instead of having our troops die in vain

Posted by: Franko at November 16, 2005 12:54 AM


Thank the U.S.A. and the USMC for speaking the facts. I am completely reassured by the intelligent comments blooming like WP of truth. A few small voices that may have to answer for thier selfish public comment can don the Emperor's New Clothes of false liberal belief and grandstand with infantile perspective. It's called sedition. I know and have known generations of USMC personnel. The outlook of Marines in WW2 was irrepressable. Let's go ahead with the certainty that Marine confidence, morale & determination will create a world untenable for armed oppsition and others closer to home.

Wade MC

Posted by: Wade MC at November 16, 2005 12:45 AM


Being a former Marine, I will certainly reply that whatever I could get my hands on to seek out, close with and destroy the enemy always works for me. Audie Murphy wasn't issued the .50 caliber he had to use in a tight but he was damn thankful that it became available I'm sure. Morality issues seldom came into play whether in a foxhole in Belleau Wood or going house to house in Hue City because a Marine's job is to kill as many of those bastards in front of him as he can and the enemy can be damn thankful that there are any pamphlets delivered at all giving them ample warning that death, real pain and true suffering is most certainly coming his way. I also don't think anybody who is using an IED with arty rounds is really too worried about "overkill" either. My only real complaint would be if this weapon were to somehow be convertible to utilize some kind of NBC capability because that's a different Pandora's box altogether. To all my Marine bro's gettin' it on---stay low and quick and come back home in one piece. Semper Fi,

Posted by: W. J. Wright at November 16, 2005 12:41 AM


There is no "pleasant" or "humane" way to kill your enemy. The goal remains the same. And like every other war before, civilians that get caught up and mixed in with the enemy usually get killed. Thats why they say War is Hell.
In God we trust but thru superior firepower we can sleep well at night.
Now lets get on with it, get it over and done with, and get the forces home.

Posted by: Mike at November 16, 2005 12:32 AM


Should any of you choose to pause and reflect on why the rest of the world looks on in horror at the unilateral policies prosecuted by United States, and why the US is alienating would-be allies, I would suggest a read through the postings on this page should be sufficient.

Characterised by factual inaccuracy and an incapacity to hold that another's viewpoint may be just as valid as your own, I truly despair for the future of the US and the rest of the world if this 'discussion' should prove to be an indication of the majority view of the US populace.

Posted by: ConcernedCitizenOfTheWorld at November 16, 2005 12:32 AM


Fellow service men,

Goodday, Thanks for the fellow hard core no shit takein blood thirsty Marines on this site. You Devil Dawgs make me the proudest SOB on earth! If you served between 1990 and 1998 and have gone through S/S school at Stone Bay range Camp Lejeune NC 28542 I may know you personally.I was the assistant instructor at the school side by side with Gunny Morris. I was the 6'5 bastard covered in tatoo's if that rings a bell but do to the harsh words of David Depman I have to keep my name a mystery in fear for my life LOL!!!!!!! The sad thing about forums is that people who have no fucking clue about what our military goes through think they know more than us. They dont know what it means to have to follow an order. they dont know that the saying is true (first to go, last to know) for you assholes out there who think you know something about combat let me fill you in. There is a thing called mission accomplishment that the Marine Corps is built on, we dont give 2 shits about what you liberal fucks think about your lost fucking cause. Orders are given, orders are followed. You may not agree with it but shit, we follow a thing called the UCMJ we have orders and have to follow rules of engagement. Partly due to you liberal assholes as I am seeing on this post getting permission to defend ones own life is like the worst case of sand ass you could get.(You guys in the middle east know what I mean)So please, either post something to support our men & wemon or please, go get a expresso and save a fucking tree somewhere.

Posted by: Dennis at November 16, 2005 12:28 AM


Col. Gates, if your really a colonel and not an irate 19 year old with a Cheetos and Xbox addiction, the truth of the matter is that the Trade Tower attacks, Jordan, and London (Cole was probably an actual "terrorist" attack)were the work of their respective governments, save perhaps the Jordan bombing, which could have been a Mossad operation (like in the Trade Tower attacks, the Israelis were warned ahead of time to evacuate and in Jordan they DID). Who benefits from those attacks? Besides the Cole incident, only the people who support Israel expansion and wars against "Anti-Semites" benefited in any way from the incidents.
Who did it? The people you slavishly serve and worship.

Posted by: Steve Pile at November 16, 2005 12:09 AM


David Depman,

Did my kind words piss you off? ahhhhhhhhh little boy,let me wipe your tears with an aloe based kleenex so I dont mess up you soft facial skin hughug kisskiss, do you feel better now? How hard did you hit those keys to type in your message? I bet your little hands hurt from your built up anger, anyone else wanna baby this little bitch? LOL

Posted by: Dennis at November 16, 2005 12:04 AM


Some of you sound like success stories from our happy public school systems where everyone needs a smiley face because if we encourage you to succeed you will be successful...

unfortunately, the terrorists don't go to schools like that. They go to schools that teach them that we are the 'Great Satan' and it is God's will for them to kill us. I wish it wasn't so. I wish we could 'talk it all out'... but how does that work when as you try your best negotiation, love on 'em, give 'em your best technology so they can have nuclear power plants, give them food, medicine, you name it, and they stare back at you thinking about how they can cut your legs out from under you so you can be as low as them in life...

The people who are our enemy will not be satisfied until we eat dust with them in 18th century style mud houses with the plumbing and electrical wire ripped out of the walls, with our women wrapped up in little tents, and pretend that it all pleases Allah... when really it pleases them that we have become like them... the ultimate act of worship.

How do you negotiate with that? It's not until they wonder if their culture/society can survive that they MIGHT listen... wanting them to hear you, trying to "see it from their perspective" is not going to make it so... doesn't even make you a better person...

Sad as it is... the stakes are too high, our boys need our best. We've got to stop being squeemish, this isn't Star Trek and 'put it on stun'. It is a prideful and foolish man that says his right to know and debate openly in public these things is more important than the young man's life standing in the desert, with sweat pooring down his face, wishing he didn't have to kill anybody else today, because even though he was trained for it and it seems exciting and maybe even fun at first, you can't undo it and it's terribly real and there are bullets whizzing past his head and shit where's the other guy that's got that SMAW-NE thing, and damn it hurry up! Those fuckers are shooting at us!

Public debate will be B.S. until the public can debate from an informed position, and unless there is a shift towards honor and truth telling in our culture on both sides of the issues at hand, I doubt any public debate will profit anyone.

Posted by: cari at November 16, 2005 12:01 AM


Kill 'em all. And the Democrats, too. Everybody but you and me... Well I do wonder about you sometimes.

Posted by: Dale E. Moore at November 15, 2005 11:54 PM


Brilliant Savages we be.

Posted by: Patrick Sullivan at November 15, 2005 11:52 PM


" just nuke there asses and bring our troops to the next battlefield

Posted by: jeremiah bihary at November 15, 2005 11:15 PM"
-------------------------------------

Any of you geniuses wonder what the hell we are doing in Fallujah in the first place?!!? Why are you so high on killing in a war based on lies? Al Qaeda is a farce, those guys were funded by our CIA. Iraqis had nothing to do with 911. Nothing. The marines are there to steal, ahem, "secure", the oil for Israel.

Why do you consider these civilians legit targets? If someone forced your health and education system down to poverty levels, then came in force to your town, tortured your population, maimed and/or killed your women, children with indiscriminate bombing....then would you not defend yourself? Of course, that's allowed, right?

Having weapons like these is probably great to boost your impotent, empty lives. Have you ever wondered why we have to kill these civilians while we have no way of saving our own people in New Orleans?

We are wrong to be there. We are wrong to use these weapons on civilians. We are bullies. I hate to see how we have to answer to God for our crimes.

Posted by: Alan Cekorich at November 15, 2005 11:50 PM


One for each squad!

Then use them on certain college campuses

Posted by: Keith at November 15, 2005 11:49 PM


"There is no moral justification for taking the lives of non-combatants" I believe thats what you said Mike. Tell that to the vicitims of 9-11, the Cole,London,Jordan. If the defense of this country were left up to you Mike, everyones ass would be pointing west five times a day.

Posted by: John Shannon at November 15, 2005 07:50 PM"

Why is it John, that 911 is always brought up with Iraq. Those are 2 different wars. Iraq isnt full of terrorist, what they have are gurilla fighters. Those are two entirely different enemies. Im a marine myself in Iraq, and sir, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. So do us all a favor, and if you have yet to go to Iraq, and be shot at on a daily basis, shut the hell up and quit telling me what you think you know. Tool.

Posted by: Col. James Gates at November 15, 2005 11:43 PM


Meh. U.S. Forces don't have the stuff to carry out protracted wars against hard targets anymore.
And Iraq wouldn't have been considered a hard target twenty five years ago!
Even during WW2 it required overwhelming numbers (usually 20-to-1) and the help of other nations, and that was just to murder German civilians. The U.S. is lucky the Germans surrendered (which turned out to be a big mistake), and that they had traitors in their high ranks, otherwise the Allies would likely have been forced into a ceasefire.
If Germany had taken the ruthless approach of the Allies, and had used their tons of stockpiled VX gas, they would have wiped out the entire Allied infantry in Europe. Eventually the Germans would have mastered intercontinental rocket systems, and I'm sure the Americans would complain about how unfair it would all be.

Will the U.S. win based on its ruthless thuggish behavior? No. For the simple reason that it IS a paper tiger, filled to the brim with fools, flatterers, and mental and emotional cripples who still value their lives more than their delusions. And that is the description of its imperial warhawks, supposedly the people who will stomp on humanity's throat. Forget about trying to be world's beat cop; we can't even keep our economy on an even keel.

Posted by: Steve Pile at November 15, 2005 11:22 PM


I saw this round in action it was the best thing we had in mout it beat the hell out of going into a building that regular 5.56 didnt penetrate and finding that everyone was still alive in there shooting us to pieces. But then they took them from us claiming it was to inhuman so we went back to the old fashion way of heavy casualties and room by room intense white knuckle fighting. Thanks for Nothing to anyone who is trying to get rid of this round i hope its worth your fellow military members lives.

Posted by: Sgt. Hebert at November 15, 2005 11:18 PM


All I gotta say is, where can I get one of these?! This is bad ass.

Posted by: jordo! at November 15, 2005 11:18 PM


cold steel draws warm blood!!

Posted by: danbo at November 15, 2005 11:16 PM


just nuke there asses and bring our troops to the next battlefield

Posted by: jeremiah bihary at November 15, 2005 11:15 PM


Yay! another overkill device for the idiots to "blow stuff up with". Good job military industrial complex! The knuckle draggers wont be able to sleep tonight, whilst visions of SMAW-NE and sugar plums dance in their heads.

War is for defending your borders, not for fun and games with new toys. Bad, very bad children! To your rooms and no more artillery rounds after dinner.

Posted by: Giagantic at November 15, 2005 11:13 PM


This comment specifically addresses the "little fanfare" the Marine Corps has made concerning this weapon. Please show me a weapon or weapons system which the Marine Corps has shouted from the rooftops about. The only thing we (yes I am one of them) constantly praise and talk about is the individual Marine. The information you have been able to obtain is freely available to the public - the magazine "The Marine Corps Gazette" from which you quote extensively can be found at your better newstands. This was not the first article to appear about this weapon. Nor was procurement money obtained through anything but a very public manner. Your attempt to equate it with chemical weapons is misguided. Its use is not banned by any convention to which we are a party (nor for that matter is white phosphorous - a projectile type which is used much more frequently for its screening capabilities than for its lethality). Finally, as has already been explained, this weapon presents a much more accurate means to take down a house/bunker (although this does not always happen - dependent upon the construction of the target) than what would have usually been used - an artillery barrage, or an airstrike.

Semper Fi

Posted by: Al at November 15, 2005 11:12 PM


This comes from a Marine who has been in a confect(Vet Nam) and if we ever learn that news is never nice to us then to heck with them!!!! Marines do as told and are dam good at what they are trained to do and that is to protect Americans right to do as they want so GET-R-DONE Marines do what works and to hell with the bleading hearts sitting on there asses doing nothing.

Posted by: Richard Hardin at November 15, 2005 10:56 PM


The object of warfare is to kill people and break things. This weapon does both at the same time. And rather effectively.

And if it's brutal, then perhaps insurgents will think twice before hooking up that Suicide Belt or IED - which kills far more innocents than a delibrately aimed thermobaric weapon.

Anything to bring victory and end this conflict.

I say kudos to the USMC.

Posted by: Matt Garrett at November 15, 2005 10:53 PM


WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS HERE? LET'S FILE THIS ARTICLE UNDER CLASSIFIED SO NO BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS OR DEMOCRATS CAN TRY TO STOP THIS ROUNDS USE. LET THE TROOPS USE THEM AND GET THIS OVER SOON SO NO MORE MARINES WILL LOSE THEIR LIVES.

Posted by: JAMES MEADOWS at November 15, 2005 10:46 PM


This guy - John Blake at November 14, 2005 08:42 PM Got it right! Just like Gen. Sherman got it right when he was asked about his burning of the south. If war is too clean and only the soldiers die, the nations will never tire of it. And do not read into this that civillians should be targeted - no, all means should be taken to protect life - WHEN POSSIBLE. In most ground wars, the civilians are the first to leave - if allowed to do so, unlike Stalingrad of WWII. But if it comes to war, all means must be taken to win that war, anything less is a recipe for defeat.

Posted by: Jim Wagner at November 15, 2005 10:36 PM


Quote: "First, when will the pacifists ever learn sometimes war unfortunately is sometimes a neccesary evil and yes it is evil."

I agree. So how many of these puppies do I need to remove the psychopathic parasites from the white house? Hypothetically speaking.

911 was in inside job.

Posted by: Dave at November 15, 2005 10:31 PM


First, when will the pacifists ever learn sometimes war unfortunately is sometimes a neccesary evil and yes it is evil. I am very sorry noncombatants are dying but that is a price that has to be paid for peace in the long run.
Secondly as "Chesty" would say "can you kill people with it and save Marine lives at the same time then use it" (after a demonstration of the M60)

Posted by: Jack at November 15, 2005 10:28 PM


IT'S ALL ACADEMIC, ALL OF IT.!!! ANY U.S. SOLDIER, SAILOR, AIRMEN OR ESPECIALLY MARINES WILL DO AS ORDERED OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES. YOU SPEND YOUR TIME AND OBEY ORDERS, IF YOU LIKE IT YOU STAY IN AND IF YOU DON'T YOU GET OUT WHEN IT'S TIME, HOPEFULLY ALIVE AND WELL. IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO TRY AND SANITIZE WAR. WAR MEANS DEATH, AND DESTRUCTION. YOU HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR MORALS AND CIVILIAN IDEAS AT THE MAIN GATE UPON ENTERING AND PICK THEM UP ALONG WITH YOUR DISCHARGE PAPERS UPON LEAVING.

Posted by: L BROUSSARD SR. at November 15, 2005 10:28 PM


How many of these puppies would I need to order to take down a building the size of the white house?

Posted by: Dave at November 15, 2005 10:24 PM


Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

By Steven E. Jones

Department of Physics and Astronomy

Brigham Young University

Provo, UT 84604


http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Posted by: Reality at November 15, 2005 10:18 PM


You can clearly tell that the above few comments are clearly from those who are die hard war supporters. The cost of war far exceeds the totality of the conflict, regardless of what is at stake - everyone loses in a war. The very idea of going in to a country, mucking about with their economy, military and just about everything else and then saying "let them defend themselves" now that we have completely f*cked everything up is just stupid.

The american government (not it's people), have been sticking their fingers any pie they can get, the more foreign the "pie" or nation, the more support for the cause they can arouse. The ultimate goal of the American gov't is to rule supremely. This weapon can be equated as a very mild form of a nuclear bomb, it starts off as something small and tactile but later grows to something horrendous and utterly disgusting.

If America was at war with a European country, say England, I wonder if these xenphobic commentors would continue to make their remarks.

Posted by: Junked at November 15, 2005 09:16 PM


DevilDawg, Semper Fi Brother! Job well done!

Posted by: Rob Doyle at November 15, 2005 08:51 PM


Once the iraqis start defending their own sorry asses then they can complain about civilian casualties. Until then, since they're relying on OUR blood, sweat, and treasure they need to sit down, STFU and quit griping when we let loose whatever damn ordinance we please.

Hasn't anyone ever seen footage from the last world war? I'll take increased civilian casualties over our boys dying anyday. If they find it unacceptable, then get their own asses on the street and do the work so we can go home.

Posted by: P at November 15, 2005 08:38 PM


As an American citizen, I frankly could care less what the rest of the world thinks of us. We have NEVER been appreciated by the rest of the world. Except, of course, when we are killing the enemies their highly enlightened societies have allowed to flourish within them. In regards to more people cheering now than 5 years ago when Americans die, I would have to say that is unfortunate. But again, I don't care. Nor should you. The impact of their hatred towards us is really negligible. And finally, as far as not being able to win a war against enemies using Guerilla tactics in a foreign and hostile environment, wrong again. We DID defeat hostile Guerilla fighters in the South Pacific during WWII. The FACT isn't that we CAN'T defeat them. The FACT is that, unfortunately, those that DO NOT go to war no longer have the backbone to see a war through to the end. Mike, no soldier, Marine, Seaman, Airman, or Coast Guardsman that goes to war WANTS to kill non-combatants. Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists the word over DO want to kill non-combatants. Realize the enemy for what they are. Do not Denigrate our troops while romanticizing the goals of a group of homicidal sociopaths.
T

Posted by: Rob Doyle at November 15, 2005 08:29 PM


wow..... we need to be careful and not let this weapon get into the hands of people with cruel intentions.

Posted by: miscblogger at November 15, 2005 08:23 PM


This whole discussion has gotten WAY out of hand, but let me address a few things. I'm a Marine who was on the front lines in Fallujah (Nov. 2004) so I think I know a little about this subject.

First, weapons (especially those like the SMAW rocket) aren't employed at will. If your rifle even discharges accidentally you'll have to report to an officer for some sort of punishment or at least a verbal thrashing. Engaging a target in Iraq is one of the most complicated and frustrating things a Marine has to do. Shooting at free will does NOT happen. Sometimes you can't even return fire when you have visual confirmation of a threat. The Rules of Engagement are extremely strict.

Second, the city of Fallujah had a population of approx. 300,000 while Saddam ruled. When I was there during the assault it was a ghost town, literally. Walking through the streets, I saw all the pamphlets alerting residents of the upcoming operation and urging them to leave. Nearly all of them did. The only exceptions were those who wanted to fight.
Hearing all the rumors of major civilian casualties used to infuriate me. I physically patrolled through and saw the entire northern sector (residential district north of Hwy. 10) and saw nothing of the sort. As much as some of you bleeding heart liberals want to believe Al-Jazeera and their reports, we did not use chemical weapons and bomb civilians by the hundreds. It was a hard-fought battle between U.S. forces and insurgents. End of story.

Finally, I spent the better part of a year (including most of the major holidays) in that rat-hole and NOT ONCE did I see an oil well or refinery, so don't tell me that I was over there " controlling the Middle East oil for us with rocket fire." If you have a problem with our president or our reasons for being in Iraq, that's fine. It's your opinion and this is a free country (thanks to our military, ahem). But the troops aren't over there filling up barrels with crude, they're fighting and dying. If you have a beef with the President, write him a letter, don't take it out the men and women doing their jobs.

With that said, I'll leave the rest to Colonel Jessup (Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men)

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. . . And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

Posted by: DevlDawg at November 15, 2005 08:15 PM


I understand what lots of you are saying, but the fact remains that world over, a lot more people cheer when Americans die *now* than they did five years ago. That's Bush's ultimate legacy.

Rant about power and control all you want, but that's the real direction America is headed in thanks to Bush and his regime - a country of people despised by humanity.

Posted by: Scratchy at November 15, 2005 08:05 PM


"There is no moral justification for taking the lives of non-combatants" I believe thats what you said Mike. Tell that to the vicitims of 9-11, the Cole,London,Jordan. If the defense of this country were left up to you Mike, everyones ass would be pointing west five times a day.

Posted by: John Shannon at November 15, 2005 07:50 PM


OORAH!

Posted by: Brett I. at November 15, 2005 07:42 PM


Great new weapon.

I am all for it. Lets all go terrorist hunting with that.

Keep up the progress, get it to the field FAST.

Posted by: Sid Gylnn at November 15, 2005 07:33 PM


Wow.

"Our ongoing failure to effectively utilize our excellent nuclear capability is what has cost us dearly in Iraq..."

"War is simple... the sooner you kill all of the bad guys, the sooner everyone else stops dying..."

Some of you folks are scary.

If I (by some seriously strange set of events) found myself in Iraq faced by a fortified building full of people shooting at me, I would be extremely glad to have the weapon in question available and would not hesitate to use it. I'm fairly sure most of the posters here would agree.

How this connects to the pair of quotes seen above though, is a little more complex. Of course the soldiers in Iraq would love to have these weapons, and probably should have them, just as they are armed with every other modern item of destruction we can provide them with. It's the attitudes of the people back home (and by extension, the attitudes our soldiers take with them to the field) that are truly destructive.

This whole massively oversimplified us vs. them mentality, that we are the 'good guys' and they are the bad guys, as perpetuated by Bush and assorted hawks is what has turned the last four years into a bloodbath.

There is no moral justification for taking the lives of non-combatants, regardless of their attitudes towards you. Furthermore, doing so will only prolong and escalate the conflict, as demonstrated previously in Afghanistan, Palestine and countless other locations around the world.

If from this you draw the conclusion that conventional armies cannot possibly pacify an enemy that uses guerilla tactics in a hostile country, congratulations. You just learned the truth that U.S. politicians and military commanders have been unable to grasp since Vietnam. If you've maneouvered yourself into a position where the only way to 'win' is to extinguish the life of every human being that may oppose you, you've already lost.

Posted by: Mike at November 15, 2005 07:11 PM


"'You liberal assholes should all denounce American citizenship'
Why? Because you are a crackhead?

'I understand you crackheads have freedom because of people like me'

Sorry, our freedom doesn't depend on homeless dick sucking crackhead male prostitues like you."


Shut up. High school graduation is all you need to worry about for now, so don't stress yourself out too much by arguing with other peoples' opinions over a weapon that will do nothing but help our troops in Iraq. You've got a lot of growing up to do.

Posted by: Rob G. at November 15, 2005 07:04 PM


I'd like to find an enemy we've fought that cared about human rights.

Posted by: Mike C at November 15, 2005 06:58 PM


This looks to me like an effective piece of ordinance, and an impressive one too. Of course we should use it. As for colateral damage, well, this is war. And in war, colateral damage is, or should be, expected. As far as the "Human Rights" groups are concerned, why the HELL aren't they complaining and marching and nagging at the governments of Syria and Iran, that allow terrorists, with NO REGARD for human life, let alone Human Rights, to operate from within their borders? Stop trying to kill our servicemen and women by tying their hands. The day I give a damn about what these elitist fools think, is the day I see them take this fight to the true defilers of Human Rights.

Posted by: Rob Doyle at November 15, 2005 06:53 PM


As much as I like to see this weapon, and think that public debate is not needed on this, I have one thing to say counter to a supporter here. Actually two things. They concern the atomic blasts that leveled two cities in advanced. People focus on that way too much, and fail to consider the fact that we actually boiled a river. We firebombed tokyo so much that it was no longer a worthwile target. Doesn't anyone ever wonder why the capitol was not bombed instead? Secondly, they had offered surrender on pretty much the same terms as we eventually accepted them after the bombs. A very convincing argument might be made that the bombs were more for the benifit of stalin and the soviets than actually winning the war. Just a thought.

Posted by: Gunner at November 15, 2005 06:49 PM


I agree with the "Good Grief" comment. Debate the enemy on whether we use a weapon or not? I suppose the Marine Corps rifle squad will now consist of 14 men, one of them a lawyer.

Posted by: John K. Bednar at November 15, 2005 06:38 PM


Happy Birthday Marines, Semper Fi and Thank You.

Posted by: TSG at November 15, 2005 06:34 PM


Recall that President Johnson bent to the outcry about using tear gas to clear caves in Viet Nam.Resulting in more US and enemy casualties.Public discussion about the Marines innovative use of this explosive is about as irresposible as anything I have heard so far this week.

Posted by: Robert T. Medley at November 15, 2005 06:33 PM


Recall that President Johnson bent to the outcry about using tear gas to clear caves in Viet Nam.Resulting in more US and enemy casualties.Public discussion about the Marines innovative use of this explosive is about as irresposible as anything I have heard so far this week.

Posted by: Robert T. Medley at November 15, 2005 06:32 PM


Well, Noah, so much for the smart, brutally honest commentary. It was good while it lasted.

Oh, and I'd be remiss in the shoddy comments arena if I didn't nitpick the fact that you misspelled "Diatribes". =)


--Christopher Karel

Posted by: Christopher Karel at November 15, 2005 06:32 PM


Seems to me if it helps me and my squad come home UNperforated, and doesn't have the effect of 16in 2ton shells of a battleship, the more the merrier.

In a MOUT situation, merde ocurs spontaniously! IT'S WAR. It ain't nice, clean, nor neat. If we get the bad guys in bags, or behind barbed wire, then it's over.

This SMAW-NE round has a very limited application. What's the difference between it and chucking a satchel charge in? How about the "wonderful" flamethrower? Which would you prefer as an "innocent bystander"? How about the one tasked to use it. This is far less damaging than a flame thrower, (esp to the one using it), and the satchel charge.

Seems to me lots of folks would like to see me or mine come home to Moma in a bag.

If not for us, "they" would be coming for you sometime in the not to distant future.

Smell what you're selling. It smacks of surrender to those who would like to see you dead or living as a new convert to Islam.

Appeasement doesn't work, ask the Chezch's, Poland, France, etc.

Don't worry. There's enough here in the USofA to finish this. If we don't, we'll be fighting in downtown, USA. I wonder what the peacenik's will say then?

Later...

Posted by: Jim Foster at November 15, 2005 06:31 PM


O.K. people. Lets look at this thing in all reality. We've lost 2000 G.I.'s over in the big sand pit. Looks like terrorism is here to stay. Put it in proper perspective. People die, military and civilian. We are over there to give them a hint terrorism will not be tolerated. People here at home die from smoking or lung cancer to the tune of about 400,000 each year.Put a dead 30 year old next to military vet of the same age, but military action, tell me the difference. It causes pain for both family's and extended familys. Wives, girlfriends loved ones and for what? 5 minutes worth of taste? How does one go about tasting smoke? In 58 years I have yet been unable to figure that one out. We lose 50,000 people a year to auto accidents. For what cause? All are preventable deaths, but in their own personal world they choose to kill themselves slowly. And one day it is over. A cancer patient is gone. So, in perspective don't shove your anti war sign in my face while smoking a cigarette. Cause you'll bite the big one. Some of those people are a bunch of pogues. Boy I feel better.

Posted by: Bob Bruno at November 15, 2005 06:30 PM


The original issue that was brought up was concerning the nocealed nature in which this weapon was introduced to the Marines. I can personally say that these things have been in the hands of Marines since the start af the War in Iraq. I was a sergeant in charge of a platoon that had SMAW-NE attachments from the start of the war till I left roughly 8 months later.

These rounds were very effective in getting the job done when we needed it to. Why send an entire squad to clear a building when you can end it with one round? These rockets saved lives no question about that.

On the subject of civilian casualties, unless a civilian is being held hostage, they will have sufficiently vacated the area before a rocket is sent down-range. I say this becuase there is a significant amount of time during situational assessment, manuevering, and suppresive fire prior to a SMAW being fired.

Finally, the issue of hostages and Marine ROE, at least while I was there, hostages were not considered a factor of limiting engagement. That is, if you see a hostage, it doesn't matter. You do what you have to do to coninue the momentum of the attack.

I hope this helps from a factual perspective

Posted by: Ryan at November 15, 2005 06:27 PM


"You liberal assholes should all denounce American citizenship"

Why? Because you are a crackhead?

"I understand you crackheads have freedom because of people like me"

Sorry, our freedom doesn't depend on homeless dick sucking crackhead male prostitues like you.

Posted by: david depman at November 15, 2005 06:25 PM


I don't care one bit about public debate. War is fought by the Military. If this weapon saves lives of our troops now, then use it now. Let the bleeding hearts debate it later. It is not contriversial or inhumane or anything new. It goes BOOM and kills the enemy. End of debate. Use it and God Bless the Marines, its about time they get the equipment they deserve to get the job done. How many Marines should we let die while soccer moms and anti-war protestors rangle over wether we should use a weapon that works when they would swoon at our failures. I don't get this at all.

Posted by: jeremy nerstad at November 15, 2005 06:24 PM


We have all seen far too many of our military personnel killed or injured because they had to go into buildings and dig these little Islamic Jihadists pig butts out of their little rat holes. As the father of two U.S. Marines, I believe we should do everything possible to protect our military personnel, and I dont think we need to be checking with the media before we do so. Tell GS to bill me for two of them..

Posted by: Gene Miller at November 15, 2005 06:21 PM


"The USA should develop more effective nuclear weapons."

Well, thats a pretty silly idea. The whole reason we stopped developing 'more effective nuclear weapons' is because it just encouraged everybody else to do the same. It might have been convienent in your eyes to just 'nuke' Baghdad, but if you make enough other people nervous about getting nuked, your simply up the chances of getting nuked first yourself.

Oh, yeah, and it would have been a terrible, terrible, idea. It wouldn't have ended the war, it would have simply guarenteed a civil war by effectively destroying the only possible center of government.

Posted by: david depman at November 15, 2005 06:21 PM


David Hambling,

Am I not correct in that weapons procurements ARE made transparent to the public via the budget process? Was this weapon part of the military budget somewhere?

Posted by: Allan Benamer at November 15, 2005 06:20 PM


Better to blow up the bad guys and save our troops. Build them, use them, God Bless our troops!

Posted by: gordon at November 15, 2005 06:18 PM


You liberal assholes should all denounce American citizenship, gather your feelings and your rights and show the loving people of Islamic terrorism what beautifull people you are. Hopefully you will get in the way of one of these "terrible"weapons" and survive to tell us how inhuman these are. I dont see your fuckhead liberal assholes weeping over our soldiers who get blown to hell. How about the beautifull people of Islam? Ahhhhhhhh drilling holes through the knee caps of Americans doesnt kill innocent people, or I know, acid baths on the face only hurt for a few seconds befor the skin falls off your face. And lets not forget 9/11. If it was "god forbid" a building full of children you liberal fucks would blame it on the US for causing the terrorist oop's I mean the opressed people for causing a economical depession for there acts. I understand you crackheads have freedom because of people like me and others on here were willing to give our lives for you, but please, for the love of Pete call your local PETA group and bitch I am shure there are some beautifull people killing cats for fur coats as we speak. Good grief, get a life.

Posted by: Dennis at November 15, 2005 06:15 PM


Sounds like a great weapon that every GI should use several times a day with moslem terrorists. Your use of the word "brutal" in the article makes me feel that you are sympathetic with the enemies of the US Govt. and are perhaps a democrat or a wuss.

You should review the footage of various hostages having their heads hacked off with a knife. That is "brutal" and a fundamental element of Islam.

Posted by: Joe Earl at November 15, 2005 06:14 PM


War is simple... the sooner you kill all of the bad guys, the sooner everyone else stops dying.
Weapons that help the end to come sooner, are fine with me.
Semper Fi!

Posted by: John H at November 15, 2005 06:09 PM


Let's not forget that they were well-informed in Fallujah that the U.S. would be clearing the city of insurgents. If the USMC is taking over my town, I'm getting the hell out! They even went in and took over a 3-block area a month or so before, so they knew what was coming.

I'm certainly not going to stick around and wait for my babies to die...

Posted by: Roman at November 15, 2005 06:09 PM


I'd like to be able to forward selected issues to colleagues w/o going through the save to doc process. Thank you.

Posted by: Michael Leap at November 15, 2005 06:08 PM


Good munitions end the lives of people who are trying to kill us and our way of life. If they dont like it they should get rid of islamic fascist and stay the hell out of the United States! Open your fuckin 7/11 in your own country

Posted by: Dennis at November 15, 2005 06:01 PM


"Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives...all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned."

Have you seen the pictures? How they are going to enter a house such as the one illustrated on the pictures LOL. Something does not seem right based on what the weapon can do and the argument.

Posted by: Paul at November 15, 2005 05:45 PM


> Encouraging public debate ... is a poor idea because [it] is
> based on the public's "feelings," a haphazard science

Yeah, don't you hate it when public "feelings" get in the way? Like how they spurred the civl rights movement? The American revolution, etc.?

Yah... the will of the public should just be ignored or better yet, the government and industrial military complex should just manufacture consent and so we can all agree on everything... without those pesky, human "feelings" getting in the way.

Hitler would be proud.

Posted by: Cowicide at November 15, 2005 05:43 PM


I see the blame America first crowd is still around. Instead of posting here they should be checking out the history books but that wouldn't matter as it seems they would rather the US suffer an attack before we take care of business rather than taking it to the enemy on their soil. No doubt that group would be the first to whine about not being properly defended.

Debating a weapon before its use??? I can just see it now, Truman calling up the press corps and saying we have this new weapon that could end WWII but we're not sure if we want to use it or see hundreds of thousands more military die in the Pacific. We have become too soft.

Posted by: cssamo at November 15, 2005 05:35 PM


Almost 3 years after the USA invaded Iraq, deposed the government, installed your own administrators and began destroying infrastructure - you're still there, destroying infrastructure with weapons like this new thermobaric one.

Your own actions generate your opposition. Go home and let Iraq heal.

Posted by: Howard Sux at November 15, 2005 05:26 PM


wow - you people are tards

Posted by: John Bon at November 15, 2005 05:20 PM


Folks, there is a reason why we elect public officials. It is because we entrust with them the responsibility to look after our best interests.

Encouraging public debate about weapons on the drawing board is a poor idea because it 1) gives away the element of surprise (you've all heard of the internet by now, right?) and 2) is based on the public's "feelings," a haphazard science, when it should really be about scientific fact and battlfield effectiveness.

Come on people, let's give our guys the tools to get this job done so they can come home.

Posted by: Andrew at November 15, 2005 05:19 PM


Mr. Skinner,

You bring forth a valid point regarding open discussion. I would personally agree that debte by *knowledgeable* people can benefit both the military and the public. But I don't think that the military has any moral or pragmatic obligation to encourage such debate in most matters. Other times, when pushing the bounderies of an acceptable level of force or means to an end, the military should (in a moral and non-legal sense) get the information out to encourage debate *before* they're actually used in the field. And while your example of the C-17's is a solid example that the public can provide decent oversight, it's really not the best cure. If pentagon officials aren't procuring the best equipment for our troops due to contractor profit concerns, the answer shouldn't lie with more public debate, but with better officials. Points 2 & 3 by PizzaHog are along the lines of my thinking.

Bud,

I find your (son's) comment regarding the Iraqi military to be especially disconcerting given the just announced issue of Iraqi jailors torturing and starving prisoners. It is entirely possible (Probable?) that the US rules of engagement are too strict. But it's far preferrable to unnecessarily killing innocent civilians. And the rules were likely designed to err 'on the safe side', rather than having to deal with the moral and strategic setbacks of an abundance of noncombatant casualties. We had plent of that in Vietnam, and it didn't seem to bring us any closer to victory. A "Shoot anything you feel like" RoE is ridiculous. We're better than that. It may be easier to memorize, but that doesn't make it right.


--Christopher Karel

Posted by: Christopher Karel at November 15, 2005 05:17 PM


Dear America,

What we need to do is mod this weapon so it will liquify the Iraqi civilians and convert them directly into oil that we can capture somehow into oil drums. This would be great for your Hummers and their voracious appetite for foreign energy sources.

We should take all money away from alternative, renewable and domestic fuel research and funnel it into this human oil conversion idea.

We Care,

The Military Industrial Complex


P.S. Remember, those who aren't fighting in Iraq and are fervently supporting and working on alternative energy in the United States are COWARDS. The real HEROS are those who are out there on the front lines controlling the Middle East oil for us with rocket fire.

Posted by: Cowicide at November 15, 2005 04:55 PM


as awful as war is, i would still like to see a video of this weapon in action.

Posted by: khy at November 15, 2005 04:27 PM


Some of the comments on this site verge on the psychotic. I wonder why these people are so bitter. The last time I checked Iraq, Vietnam, and Panama never attacked the US. We invaded their countries unprovoked. One comment even says "My Utopia is when the our enemies fear us so much we no longer have to fight them", that sounds like tyranny through terror. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and will turn the world against us.

Putting this much firepower in a handheld device is not only an invitation to accidents and abuse but it will only be a matter of time before terrorists and militias copy them. Wait until they are used in booby-traps and car bombs. You've let a genie out of a bottle.

It is strange that so much focus is put on protecting soldiers at the expense of civilians. If you don't want to get hurt then don't enlist.

Posted by: George at November 15, 2005 04:20 PM


"I'm undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up."

My son just got back from Iraq, and his comment was that "If we lose, I'm blaming the JAG." The troops over there have to be conversant with an ROE of 6 pages, single spaced. An IED goes off,
and 60 yards away, a single guy pops up and starts running off. Nope, can't shoot him, he may just be running off to the bathroom.

He did say that he liked working with the Iraqi troops though, since their ROE seemed to be "Shoot anybody you feel like."

email is human readable - aloud.

Posted by: bud at November 15, 2005 04:16 PM


Obviously we need to send in the human shields again. Just because it would make shooting this thing more fun.

Posted by: Gerard at November 15, 2005 03:54 PM


is there a such thing as a non-brutal "weapon". I mean come on we don't fight wars with pillows people.

Posted by: Eric McWilliams at November 15, 2005 03:53 PM



Gee, an enhanced fuel-air explosive - the enhancement basically being that the packaging and distribution are well optimized (i.e. small round, large explosive spread).

Yawn.

Posted by: Charlie at November 15, 2005 03:51 PM


again the americans shock me

Posted by: anti at November 15, 2005 03:39 PM


Uhh... Just a clarification to a few of the posters? Just because Bush kept saying 911-Saddam-Iraq-911-Iraq-911-Iraq, doesn't mean that Iraq had anything to do with it. In fact admitted itel confirms they did not and abandoning the mission in Afganistan let the real villans of 911 escape.

So please, let's try to keep the facts as facts, ok?

Posted by: Richard Smith at November 15, 2005 03:25 PM


Who said war is civilized? If I were a non-combatant, I sure as hell would take my prayer rug and boogie down the road. BUT, the best way to win a war is to not let it happen. Make the world KNOW that the US IS the best, and that when the Marines, Navy, Air Force and Army show up; any enemies' 'cojones' shrivel to mustard seed size.
Oh yeah....we can be hurt but we can make them hurt worse. Yes, we need to fight 'limited' wars, not all-out destruction or de-population of a city. If we have the technology that will lessen the risks of US casualties, so much the better.
But the US NEEDS to make war so horrific for the other side, that the next time someone wants to play with the "bigs", they'll think REAL long and hard about it.
The last fight I got into was in high school with some idiot that just wanted to pick a fight. I didn't feel obligated to tell him I had a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do. He brought a bunch of his friends to see me get my butt kicked. He wound up with a broken nose and fractured forearm. No one ever picked a fight with me again. The 'fight' lasted about 45 seconds and he never touched me.
Any policy that says we need to lay all our cards out on the table is treasonous, at best. We NEED to maintain a strong military prescence, now and forever. I was told as a kid,"don't start any fights, but make sure you finish them." Sounds reasonable to me. I won't go into Vietnam anymore,by choice. THAT one's over.
Bill Daniel
"The Lieutenant"

Posted by: Bill Daniel at November 15, 2005 03:10 PM


The USA should develop more effective nuclear weapons. At a bare minimum, both Bagdhad and Fallujah should have been destroyed at the outset of the war. This would have demonstrated to Al Qa-Ida that their efforts were futile and would have simultaneously saved literally THOUSANDS of American lives.

Our ongoing failure to effectively utilize our excellent nuclear capability is what has cost us dearly in Iraq, and if it is not fixed, it will cost us many more American lives as we take the war on terror to new countries.

Posted by: James S Watson at November 15, 2005 02:47 PM


Interesting site - thanks, Rand, for the link!

1. SMAW-NE doesn't seem "brutal" or "barbaric." Dead by extreme SMAW-NE over-pressure is the same as dead by artillery barrage, is the same as dead by cruise missile, is the same as...etc. SMAW is more target-specific than other options which minimizes collateral damage/casualties.

2. Public debate is a good thing, but like all good things it can be taken to an extreme that is damaging, especially if the debate is un-/ill-informed. Debate over being in Iraq is good. Debate over how we are engaging the Iraqi citizens vs. the insurgents is good. But debating particulars - bringing down buildings by using SMAW-NE vs. HE rounds - is engaging in intellectual wheel-spinning, especially if one isn't conversant with the modern battlefield, it's pressures and requirements. If the weapon and it's use don't violate The Rules, where is the debate?

3. Public debate. Another example of non-debate: there has been little *public* debate on the US military's decision to stick with the .223 full-jacket round used by the M-16 and *most* US long military arms, when there are very valid reasons to adopt the 7.62mm full-jacket round. The reason: the US public hopes (and prays) that the "experts" in this matter make the right decision. Also, there is almost *always* debate within the military systems, Congressional sub-committees and the procurement processes.

4. Saddam is being tried for massive crimes against humanity - the use of gas and other agents to kill large numbers of people. To equate his actions with our military's - in Iraq or Afghanistan - is intellectually and morally bankrupt. The number of Americans that have died in these countries is large - the number that died so that we can minimize civilian casualties is significant. It would have saved a lot of American lives if we used FAEs on Falluja or Obeidi - and we would have been wrong if we had done so.

5. Any weapon can and will be used by terrorists, unless there is some reason that *they* recognize as legit that prohibits it. A desire to aquire weapons is very different than the ability to make them - like weapons-quality nukes and NBC weapons. If they could make 'em, they would have used 'em by now.

6. The possibility of terrorists aquiring a few SMAW-NEs isn't strategically important, if taken in the context that they have virtually unlimited access to equally powerful conventional weapons that can achieve similar results.

Posted by: PizzaHog at November 15, 2005 02:43 PM


For the record, I'm also against the war. I marched against it twice here in New York. While there are clear red state vs blue state issues involved in the war, many of the reasons I disliked the war was that I foresaw it as being unwinnable because the Powell Doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine) was not being followed. As many of the posters in this thread have commented, overwhelming force does intimidate future opponents.

However, this weapon only antagonizes them because American troops are unable to take advantage of the newly "pacified" area. How overwhelming is it when insurgents KNOW that the Americans, having leveled a few houses in the neighborhood with their fancy new weapon, are going to leave shortly?

Chew on this a bit -- we could have won this war in Iraq but Bush and his buddies decided we could go in with a 166 civilian to 1 soldier ratio instead of the 40 to 1 ratio we had in Bosnia.

Weapons like this are pretty fancy -- even I'm intrigued by their usage but no matter how many robots, fancy nonlethal devices and weapons like this you throw into the fray our country cannot withstand a prolonged occupation that was poorly prepared for.

Posted by: Allan Benamer at November 15, 2005 02:26 PM


I am for any thing that in the long run will save the lives of U.S Troops. I also think that anyone who is against the use of the SMAW-NE or any other military hardware because they think it is too brutal and that it might hurt civilians even though they can save American lives arent Americans their terrorist and should be kicked out of this country I love so much.

Posted by: Robert T at November 15, 2005 02:25 PM


Good Morning Mr. Karel,

You make many points that I whole heartly agree with but I must take execption with your thoughts regarding the public debate on new weapons. The transparent nature of defense that is emerging with use of the Internet and sites like Defense Tech is healthy both for the DoD/Military and the general public at large.

History will judge society as a whole for the conduct of our military not the temperory actors who serve. The military reflects societies values not the values of organizations that isolate themselves from the society that they are serving.

Defense Tech and the other Blogs like it are having an effect on how the United States Military conducts itself. The job is far, far for being done but of those 5.5 million visitors to this site in the past twelve months have been many decision makers and or their staffs.

Look no farther the last weeks Senate vote of 98 to 8 to keep the C-17's in production when even Boeing it's contractor wanted to close down the line and put its resources into more profitable work, like the F/A-22. The C-17 has been championed on the blogs and in direct contact to Senators not in the E-Ring of the Pentagon.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
"Stewart's Platoon"

Posted by: Byron Skinner at November 15, 2005 02:05 PM


"Whenever the legal/ethical status of a given weapon system might be questioned, surely some public debate is needed."

Not necessarily, I think. Often new technology comes hand-in-hand with new tactics in an effort to give US troops the element of surprise, which consistently leads to safer, more effective operations (for our guys, that is.) Should the US have publically discussed the capabilities, use and tactics of the F-117A Nighthawk or the B-2 Spirit before sending them into Baghdad? Should the NRO start having "how much is too much?" discussions about the resolution of their orbiting cameras? When it comes to making war on those who would stand against the US, every advantage we can give our fighting men and women can be translated into lives saved on the ground; that means some soldiers get to come home to their families that might otherwise have not.

I agree that this is an issue worthy of public discussion, but if you accept that sometimes open combat is inevitable, laying all of our cards out on the table before the bullets even begin flying isn't necessarily the best strategy.

Posted by: Jober at November 15, 2005 01:51 PM


David, I think you've got a point about discussing weapon morality *before* deployment, not after their discovery. It makes sense from both a pragmatic standpoint (avoiding cover-up charges and public outcry) as well as a moral one. ('kill first, ask questions later' is a poor national policy)

But that being said, the US armed forces develops a boatload of new weaponry on a consistent basis. Exposing each and every one of them to a public debate would be silly, time consuming, and wasteful. The military doesn't need a consensus every time it redesigns a sidearm or modifies a projectile casing. So that means that there's a vague line somewhere demarcating what does and does not need to be discussed. I think small scale thermobarics are close enough to that line to be understandably passed over.

I assume that the marines 'keeping quiet' isn't a policy decision, but simply another cutting edge military technology that isn't discussed a greatdeal in the public. You make a very good point in the broad sense, in that there are things things we should be discussing, but aren't. (ie, RNEP)

To toss my two cents into the thermobaric debate ensuing: This specifically doesn't look to be too much of a problem. The shoulder fired aspect of this weapon simultaneously limits its destructive strength, as well as guarantees accuracy towards a carefully chosen target. It unquestionably beats out artillery/guided bombs, and is probably better or equivilant to simply ridling a structure with bullets. The mechanisms of a thermobaric explosion look to have limited effectiveness outside of confined spaces -- one can't say the same about more conventional fragment-based explosions.


--Christopher Karel

Posted by: Christopher Karel at November 15, 2005 12:22 PM



"I'd like to address the reports of "thermobaric" RPG-7 rounds equivalent to 122mm worth of artillery. Are they kidding? "

It's actually less impressive than it sounds - if you look at the payload of the (thin walled) thermobaric round and compare it to the (thick walled) HE road, the values are not that different anyway. What you don't get is the shrapnel, which is what does the antipersonnel damage.

You cannot directly compare the explosive effects of condensed vs thermobaric explosives, because it's a matter of high overpressure/short duration vs low overpressure/long duration. But generally speaking against structures, thermobarics are highly destructive - unless they're tailored not to be.

Posted by: David Hambling at November 15, 2005 12:17 PM


So let's really think perpendicularly here. Military issue small arms ammo is a lead core fully covered by copper or some other substance. No soft point or hollow point. This is in accord with the 'no dumdum' policy. However, it often happens that a person shot with a fully jacketed bullet has to be hit more than once to put them out of action as this bullet design minimizes internal damage and frequently results in the person bleeding bleeding to death slowly from multiple impacts. It's possible that a hollowpoint/softpoint bullet design might actually be the more humane alternative as it is more likely to stop the target with fewer shots. To my mind, if it's okay for law enforcement use, it ought to be okay for military use.

Posted by: JSAllison at November 15, 2005 12:05 PM


I'd like to address the reports of "thermobaric" RPG-7 rounds equivalent to 122mm worth of artillery.
Are they kidding? It sounds like a teensy little overgeneralization. As we've read above, FAEs and the like are extremely useful against soft targets and enclosed areas.
Armored vehicles and structures, which react just as poorly to direct arty hits as anything else, can generally ignore the effects of FAE/thermobaric attacks, especially when "buttoned up". Thus I hardly think it honest to say these weapons give the average RPG power equivalent to tube artillery.

Posted by: TrustButVerify at November 15, 2005 10:23 AM



There have been some interesting comments, but nobody picked up on my main point - that the development and use of SMAW-NE and similar devices is being done on the quiet and that public discussion has been avoided.

Whenever the legal/ethical status of a given weapon system might be questioned, surely some public debate is needed. Anything that could undermine support at home, or alienate third parties, is dangerous. Some may feel that it doesn't make any difference, but I have to disagree: propaganda is what drives recruitment for the anti-US cause.

There are a huge number of new technologies now being developed under classified programs, and no such discussion takes place. This is something which is described in more detail in my book, Weapons Grade, which lifts the lid on a few such items.

Thermobaric weapons will be used by insurgents and terrorists, and I hope to expand on this threat in a future posting.

The approach of "taking the gloves off" is a slippering slope. For example: insurgents from a certain town in Iraq carry out an attack. Devastating reprisals are carried out, on the basis that any inhabitants who are not terrorists are supporters of terrorists who did nothing to stop them, and the ferocity of the response will make anyone else think twice before supporting the insurgency.

Some people might support this type of action; but this is exactly what Sassam Hussein is being tried for.
(And yes, I know the Brits did it first in Mesopotamia, and with chemical weapons. Doesn't make it a good idea).

Posted by: David Hambling at November 15, 2005 09:45 AM


The significant military advantage will always cause controversy in a propaganda driven media circus. Human rights are far too vocal and seem to have far too much influence on whatever is going on. Let us not forget this is a war not a sport with judges. Yes Human rights should be upheld but the soldiers are human beings and in Fallujah's case have to face a deadly enemy both military and civilian. If I didn't know who the hell I was fighting civvfy or otherwise then I would be grateful to have a weapon that allows me to take out all possible danger. The use of this weapon should be decided by the officers - that is their job and if the human rights people want to do it put them on the front line. I'd like to see how they treat the human race after a smiling boy of 10 walks up to them and then delivers to 200lb blast destroying their friends.

Posted by: Desideratum at November 15, 2005 07:47 AM


do you know how demoralizing ineffective bunker weapons are? talk about a let down..
any infantryman that knows is sh*t would tell that this is a miracle weapon. It denies the coward enemy his rathole instantly.
hooah ya bastids and we got more where that came from!!!
ethics..human rights..you go hump your lunch around in 110 heat and then talk to me about picky choosy crap.

it's only an issue because it works for Americans.

so much for the corps crying about getting second rate stuff. shows theyre still in the game bigtime.

Posted by: playertwo at November 15, 2005 03:33 AM


CW, thanks for the laugh. Do you really think any weapon will scare a suicide bomber? If it kills them, good, if it kills them fast, great, if it kills them in bunches, even better, but you can cross intimidating them off your to-do list. It ain't gonna happen.
No way to prove it , but I suspect the only thing a man sitting on 600 pounds of high explosives with a deadman switch fears it not getting to his target.

Posted by: Stehpinkeln at November 15, 2005 12:29 AM


My question is, how do we keep the enemy from getting their hands on them?

Posted by: Rand Simberg at November 15, 2005 12:17 AM


I think its because it really IS sensible:

The alternative has been artilery and air strikes, which are far WORSE. I'd worry about large hyperbaric weapons, but something designed to blow up a whole house FROM the inside seems far more proportionate than the alternatives.

Personally, I think the whole war is immoral, and founded on a series of lies. But for those Marines stuck in the sand, and following legitimate orders, something like this seems a godsend: a weapon they can actually use effectively (without having to wait for fire support), and actually seems far more proportionate than the alternative.

Posted by: Nicholas Weaver at November 14, 2005 09:12 PM


Look, how many times do people have to say this?

American thermobaric weapons are NOT FAEs. The Russians called FAEs thermobarics as a marketing trick, but ours are very different. We should have called them enhanced blast or something to differentiate them.

They're basically high explosives with some of the explosives replaced with other bits (I heard aluminum nitrate--hobby rocket fuel--once, but I haven't researched it much).

One big difference between the two is that our thermobarics aren't all that effective out in the open, where FAEs are. However, a FAE is hard to get inside a building, whereas our thermobarics, since they stay solid until they go boom, are easy to get where you want them.

Posted by: Big D at November 14, 2005 09:00 PM


Y'know, for a while, I've been worried about the quality of debate here in the comments. Too many wave-the-flag (or burn-the-flag) diabtribes. Too many all caps screamers.

But these smart, brutally honest observations are a real pleasure to read. Nice one, everyone.

nms

Posted by: Noah Shachtman at November 14, 2005 08:47 PM


In extremis, the ancient "means vs. ends" dilemma boils down to, "When survival is at stake, anything goes." If Islamic terrorists wore uniforms, respected non-combatants, subscribed in any way to the so-called "laws of war" (rather than, say, beheading trios of elementary schoolgirls to discourage educating females), then --possibly-- more self-restraint in weaponry might prove justified. But powerful armament is inherently deadly and (yes) ghastly in operation: Think Hamburg's victims of Allied white-phosphorus bombings in 1945, faced with drowning or burning alive. If war cannot be prevented, then prosecute it relentlessly, avoiding non-combatant casualties to the extent possible, but never at the expense of your own fighters' lives. Anyone reading of super-heated firestorms boiling down the elevator shafts of our Trade Towers will understand that America's enemies care nothing for our scruples... and to the extent we pull our punches, we prolong the conflict, inflicting worse "collateral damage" on more people. Tell it to the Marines, whose lives are at stake and --treasonous jerks like Durbin and Kerry aside-- in their own interest make every effort to win battles without mindlessly flattening everything in sight. By all means, use whatever ordnance is most effective. If Al Qaeda objects on humanitarian grounds, issue 'em clown costumes before we all die laughing.

Posted by: John Blake at November 14, 2005 08:42 PM


A buddy of mine with IInd Mar Div out of Camp Lejeune returned from Iraq, and he 'acquired' one of these weapons from another platoon before going into Fallujah. He swears by these them. The buildings there are akin to bunkers, and nothing short of a ma deuce will do anything other than chip away at the walls. Terrorists know they can take over a house and fire on Marine's in unprotected positions with little fear of return fire. Even pinpoint 203 rounds and standard anti-armor rounds did little more than ring the ears of hardenned fighters hopped up on narcotics like hash, opium, or khat. Lob one of these "smawnees" into a window, and you save time, bullets, and Marines. The insurgents adapted, and you're seeing fewer houses getting taken over by them. So you'll see fewer smawnees getting popped through front doors. In short, this is a non issue already. Incidentally, pre-smawnee the answer was to call in a tank to level the building. A tank round stands a good chance of going through a few houses. The smawnee takes out the house it's in. Far better choice IMHO.

Posted by: Andrew Krause at November 14, 2005 08:11 PM


As an addendum to the above, I might remind everyone that chemical weapons were not used during the Second World War due to the fact that both sides reatained them and were willing to use them in retaliation in kind. We would do well to remember this lesson; Al Quaida has shown little interest in playing by any rules at all.

Posted by: TheMasterTimekeeper at November 14, 2005 05:17 PM


Those "hearts and minds" are anti-American, so who cares. No big loss. I'd rather see anti-American civilians die than American troops.

Also, if the price for a country to enter into war with America is higher because we have more "massively brutal weapons", then all the better. The more they have to think twice (or thrice) before getting into conflicts, the better.

But to say that using these weapons is wrong, because they MIGHT cause civilian casualties? Please. We're using them against people who obviously don't value our civilians, indeed on September 11th they saw our civilians as TARGETS. So I don't hold any sympathy there.

Force is the authority from which all other authority is derived. To intentionally water down our force authority because the huggy-feelies of the world don't like the APPLICATION of that authority is wrong, and in the long run will only hurt our ability to assert our authority without being required to resort to force.

Posted by: R at November 14, 2005 05:16 PM


I'm with C-Low and Skinner here. It is bad business to rule ANYTHING out (yes- that includes all the horrors of the Thirty Years War) in a fight, as demonstrated by the increasing contempt terrorists are showing for U.S.-run "detention facilities".
The alternative may be to end up a virtuous loser. We must ask ourselves, would we rather be standing tall at the end of the fight, or remembered as honorable, but soft-headed, has-beens? I for one would rather see my nation vilified, but nonetheless sovereign, than suffer defeat because we have lost our ruthlessness.

Posted by: TheMasterTimekeeper at November 14, 2005 05:15 PM


The more we sanatize war, the more we lesson the impact of war on our enemy and yes their civilian populations colateral damage, the more we will have perpetual never ending wars. War is hell war is brutal people die bad things happen unfortunatley at times it is a nessecary evil. However keeping war hellish makes the threat of war all the more powerfull and therfore avoiding war. Rare bloody ruthless wars are better and less costley in the long run that many perpetual wars with rules and laws that just drag out the final results. By going out of our way with no receprication on the other side to honor that or this rule of law only encourages a enemy not to follow the laws and get the minor advantage such gives thier is no consequiences.

Analogy: It is not a very scary thing to fight a big guy with boxing gloves and all the rules of boxing. However it is horrifying to get in the ring with a big guy bare knuckle NO Rules No holds barred.

Keeping war as hellish as possible is the only the best deterent to war. Not pacifist ideals of utopia, that only end in loss or perpetual endless mini wars when mixed with human nature.

My Utopia is when the our enemies fear us so much we no longer have to fight them. Otherwise we will always be having to disprove the "paper tiger" theory in endless challenges.

Posted by: C-Low at November 14, 2005 04:28 PM


Personally I think this weapon looks like a winner to me. Like any other weapon there are placing it works well and places it would be a just aweful.

In the case of Fallujah everyone I know that went said they never once saw a noncombatant in the city. So while leaving a house is not good, its better than sending in Marines to fight it out. On the other hand, if you just use it wherever you feel like it you are going to cause all kind of problems. But these 'jarheads' are smart kids and I think for the most part they know when and what to use. Lets give them the tools, and let the officers figure out when they should use them.

Posted by: The Cenobyte at November 14, 2005 04:11 PM


I don't have much to say. Only that this new weapon that should not be taken lightly.

Posted by: Jocelyne Rains at November 14, 2005 03:59 PM


Good Morning David,

Are your refering to the "new' M-72A7's that were recently put on order with an Arizona companyfor the Marines?

If the pictures shown are in fact the M-72A7 it looks like a winner.

As for Civilian casualities in a war zone there are no none combants as we saw from Jordan yesterday.

When war starts human rights negotiations have failed and U.S. soldiers and Marines have the same rights to stay alive as "civilians" do.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
"Stewart's Platoon"

Posted by: Byron Skinner at November 14, 2005 01:50 PM


I would think, that an explosive aimed from line-of-sight, that is man portable, would be far less likely to cause massive damage than, say, an artillery barrage, or an airstrike. Nothing controversial about the other two, so there shouldn't be anything controversial about this.

Posted by: Mycroft at November 14, 2005 01:11 PM


There's a thermobaric warhead (either Russian or Bulgarian) for the RPG7 that is apparently equivalent to a 122mm artillery round.

Posted by: Alex at November 14, 2005 12:37 PM


"Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide "we do/do not to use X".

Good grief.

Posted by: W. Zimmerman at November 14, 2005 11:34 AM


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