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Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 14, 2008 04:07 AM

I have been in the army for 16 years now and am currently in Afghanistan. I always hear some non-military, arm-chair general complain about the quality of body armor we currently wear or that we don't have enough armor. This is usually spurred by some disgruntled family member whose soldier was killed in action and they're body armor didn't save their life and then the media perpetuates the myth about the IBA not working. Well let me tell you that it does indeed save lives every day in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I have worn the old flak vest in previous deployments and while the IBA is pushing 30 pounds with the plates in, it is still more comfortable to wear than the old vests. And thanks to some of these family members complaining enough to the media and the military we have been given even more armor to add to our already heavy IBA's. Most of this was done to appease these family members. Some units make it mandatory that their troops wear not only the IBA but also the side SAPI plates, underarm and bicep protectors, and everything else we are issued. All this extra armor makes the IBA weigh almost 50 pounds. Add ammo, radio, grenades, med kit, hydration bladder, weapon, etc, and some troops are pushing well over 100 pounds of combat equipment. And this is all worn on your body. This doesn't even count your assault pack, if you're carrying one, which sometimes weighs another 20-40 pounds.

All I'm saying is that while the IBA is heavy and hot, it is still the best thing we got out there. I have seen it save lives. The ESAPI plates can take multiple hits from an AK-47 round and the soldier gets right back up and fires back. He will be sore for a few days, but alive. And no amount of body armor will ever stop IED's.

The military is still working to improve the body armor and make it lighter. The technology to make body armor that weighs five pounds and can stop a triple-stacked anti-tank mine IED is just not there yet.

Most soldiers don't wear all the extra armor we are issued because it is simply too heavy and cumbersome. If you keep adding more armor the soldier won't be able to move and will be ineffective.

We are soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors. We take risks for a living. This is our job. We trust the equipment we have because we have seen it work. And no, Dragonskin is not better. It falls apart in extreme temps and weighs 47 pounds without any extras on it.

Until you have worn the IBA in combat in 100 plus degree heat for an entire year, stop complaining about it or trying to add more armor to it. Let us do our jobs and be the judge of it. It is our feedback that is going into the next generation of body armor.

Posted by: MSG K at August 1, 2007 04:02 PM

An article I read last year said it best. "The modern US soldier goes into combat carrying 120lbs of light weight equipment. The problem is that 120lbs of lightweight equipment still weighs 120lbs!"

The current interceptor system is flawed in the same way that the up-armored Humvee is. rather than fixing a design they simply add more armor and weight to an existing frame. Soldiers need to be able to move effectively and keep the momentum and "violence of action" going in a firefight or they risk becoming easy targets. Systems such as dragon skin have been proven more effective for personal armor and offer better protection to weight ratio. It's time to realize this and drop the weight.

-Rook, US Army Combat Engineer

Posted by: Rook at July 23, 2007 07:20 PM

Ranger armor weighs 24 lbs with both plates. Te very first had one front plate so that's probably where the 16 lb's came from. There is lighter versions available now. the old heavy plates were better than interceoptor plates as far as taking a hit

Posted by: me at April 26, 2006 10:53 PM

What helps is that globalsecurity.org perpetuates the myth of 25 pds.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/interceptor.htm

What you see on globalsec is not what you get in real life. :)

Posted by: Charles at January 28, 2006 07:14 PM

The body armor presently worn by troops in Iraq, only contribute to the rising numbers of disabled and de-bilitated women and men via more survivors with amputations. As an 11B, I preferred to "run-dodge-n-jump" without the encombersome weight of body armor or flak-vest. When "shots-fired," we dropped all weight except for ammo and water and scrambled to locate, confront, and engage.
But I can see where, with all that weight the present day infantryman has to bear, he cannot "run-dodge-n-jump" as he has to lug the weight and endure the enfilading or plunging fire hoping to not to suffer an arm or a leg or a life-effecting disabling wound. I have seen some of the survivors, and as a mature, sane, and "disabled veteran," I would not want to bear the weight of such a chance at survival. I'd rather die and rest in peace.

Posted by: Magua at January 16, 2006 10:45 PM

Body armour has pluses and minuses. The body armour today is more effective than the VietNam era equipment I used in the 70's & 80's. The K-pot offers better head protection and a SAP plate was unheard of then. The problem as I see it, isn't as much about the effectiveness of body armour although it has room for vast improvement. It is about weight and bulk.

Yes the 9 pounds of armour along with the combat load was bulky, uncomfortable, and interfered with mobility; But not any more so than the armour I was issued in the Balkans in the 90's.

For those whose duties are to operate vehicles the Army's Tank and Automotive Command has done a terrible disservice. The vehicles are not designed to allow a driver wearing body armour to do his/her job.

I am 6'2" tall, while wearing the vest with the humvee seat at its rearmost position I could not exit the vehicle quickly let along position myself in the drivers seat to operate the vehicle controls in the most efficent manner. As for what troops in armoured vehicles need to contend with, I can bearly imagine. Flack vests took up room in the M113s also.

As for the previous comment about placing Misters Chenny, Rumsfeld and Rowe and others in Iraq for evolution of body armour to get a jump start. Maybe a nice idea but the wrong people. Get the miltary and civilian leaders who sign off on equipment into a position to have to use it and interface with it as the Soldier or Marine does and we'll see faster evolution of more effective armour.

Maybe the next generation of vehicle will accomodate the 6'6" Soldier who is driving the hummer while wearing body armour.

As for arguments over the Soldiers load and mobility. It may never end.

Posted by: Quinn at January 16, 2006 06:02 PM

I have the perfect solution to the body armor thing: Have the Vice President and that jerk-off, Karl Rove, move their office to Baghdad for the duration of the war. You will see a Manhattan Project to develop body armor. Better yet, have them both resign and drive trucks for Halliburton.
PS Recall 'Stormin' Norman having a leader with brass balls might be the best idea of all

Posted by: RL. Stroud at January 16, 2006 03:46 PM

What laymen believe claims like "25 lbs" for Vietnam-era vests?

During the Korean War, the T-52 vest was capable to stop pistol bullets, but did not weigh much more than eight pounds!!!!!

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/default.htm

Posted by: Sven Ortmann at January 16, 2006 03:24 PM

who ever posted that about the 800yd param. im sorry but someone needs to stop useing a drill to clean in thier ears. have u ever seen the inviroment we face over here i may not speak for a marine, but i got friends that are marines here in iraq also that aggree with me. i dont care what some old former POG says about what tools we got today, nothing is gonna change as far as being able to opperait with no armor. someone sell this guy a ticket to my world and ill prove it, no POG is gonna tell me what we do and sont reqire to do a job the likes of witch they have never seen. Out.

Posted by: SPC Crabb 1-68 CAB 4ID at January 16, 2006 10:43 AM

Flak vests? Body armor? What is that? I don't remember wearing any of the afore mentioned body protection or for that matter a Steel helmet. I must have missed something in vietnam. Was this something reserved for line units?

Posted by: Chico at January 15, 2006 09:29 PM

SOmeone posted that the "latest vest" will not stop a rifle round?? I do not know what you are wearing but the SAPI plate will stop an AK-47 round at ten meters...ho and yes you will be hurting from the impact, but you'll be alive. I witnessed the event first hand in 2003 during OIF.

Cheers,
Tom

Posted by: Tom at January 15, 2006 08:45 AM

The thing about the Vietnam era body-armor was that it was never able to stop a direct hit from a rifle round. It was constructed to stop 'flak', that is bits of metal (shrapnel, etc.) moving at a much lower velocity than any of the wide variety of Ak-47 rounds fired by NVA / Vietcong. The newer interceptor vests (which I have) also do not stop direct hits from rifle rounds (A fact I think people are only recently becoming aware of)It is only the SAPI ceramic plates which are rated to do this. So, right. None of the vests are all that heavy, but also none of them technically none of them stop rifle rounds without the much heavier ceramic plates. If only the insurgents were all armed with 9mm handguns...

Posted by: toby at January 14, 2006 07:31 PM

there is no damn GOOD reason why Marines cannot maintain a hostile clear perimeter of 800 yds, minimum, even in this urban setting. again, note, I say GOOD reason. we have the means to keep tabs on ANYONE, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE if we will simply employ it. we can watch any road, any building, and cover.......if we choose.

body armour is meant for those who do not choose to maintain that safety margin of 800 yds.

two choices: one, let em in and wear armour hoping to get by, or two, keep em the hell away.

whatever, get out of denial. all you do is feed a lousy situation.

by the way, I do not care to read MARINES feed this crap, let the army do it. Semper Fi damnit

Posted by: campbell at January 14, 2006 02:36 PM

egosbro - First thing you will learn when you join the Marines is to do as you are told. I used the 80s Kevlar vest my entire time in the Marines and it saved lives. It was never intended to stop bullets. The first SAPI plates were introduced in the 90s to provide some protection for small arms. You must balance protection with ability to accomplish the mission. When you add it the weight of arms and ammunition, 25 pounds of armor is pushing it on sustainablle load. The assault kit for a soldier or Marine shouldn't be over 40-50 pounds. An M16A4 and 200+ rounds, hand grenades, optics, water is going to get to that 40 pound mark fast. Add in an AT4 or carry a SAW instead and you will be hurting. That being said, much of the patrolling is mounted so you can carry more armor if riding, but on contact you still need to move quickly

Posted by: Ben Hull at January 14, 2006 12:52 PM

Egosbro, Good for you enlisting. BUT get it in your head, the protection the gear will give is better then the little relief you get from the heat by NOT wearing it. It will save your ASS.

Posted by: Woobster at January 14, 2006 06:39 AM

As a Helo Driver in Vietnam, I placed my Chicken Plate in front of the pedels in order to deflect anything comeing up at me from"low and front".

Posted by: Burgess Carter at January 13, 2006 03:53 PM

Good Morning Folks,

As one who used the M-1952 Body Armor in Vietnam, I can say it made a good pillow when you got a night off from ambush patrols. As indicated in another comment they wouldn't stop an AK round especially the Soviet ones with the steel pin embeded in it. But it did have it's uses.

When traveling in vehicles and you got hit with a B-41 or a B-40 attack, that 60's Chicom speak for RPG's, they would stop a of of metal. Troopers on the 11th. ACR who wore the vest all the time soon had a metal collection embeded in their vest.

The vest were also good to wear when you were checking out a village, booby traps were every where. To convence someone to wear a vest all it takes is putting a budy with a chest wound or stomach wound in a body bag.

Of the current war and the use of body armor, the arm chair guys can say what they like but after nearly four years of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq the number of "Orthopedic" basket cases is still under 300 of the total of nearly 16K wounded.

In compairson when I was on "K Ward" at Letterman Medical Center in 1966/67 the ward had a rotating overflow population of 80 plus patients and that was before "Tet 68". The estimated "Ortho Basket Cases" of the Vietnam War is around 10K. So it appears that the current body armor, although less then perfect is doing it's job. That said lets make it better.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at January 13, 2006 01:37 PM

It's good that you've chosen the Marines, but don’t worry about having to carry around an extra 25 pounds (it will be more than that with all the other Modular gear and rounds anyway). Sure it will be hot, but as a Marine you will learn to suck it up and realize it isn't that bad. Iraq gets pretty damn cold at times anyway and the FLAK can keep you very warm. I have seen the FLAK with SAPI plates stop up to 7 AK-47 rounds. As far as an IED is concerned, the FLAK can still make the difference between life and death. I'm sure your blood related family, as well as your new Marine family, would rather have you safe and hot then cold and dead.

Posted by: Corporal Sierra at January 13, 2006 12:45 PM

I'm joining the USMC. And if deployed to iraq, I really dont wanna carry around 25 or even 10 pounds of extra insulation while in 120 degree heat. Not to mention I am not quite so sure this is gonna protect me from big "F*** Y**" bomb burried beneath me.

Posted by: egosbro at January 13, 2006 11:44 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the "chicken plate" armor worn by helo crews stopped a few AK rounds. Damned if I can find a link to prove it, though.

Posted by: TheMasterTimekeeper at January 13, 2006 07:28 AM

All I do know is that they were heavy and wouldn't stop an AK round. Terry Johnson Vietnam Veteran

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