deflagrating explosives disguised as coal go back to the civil war when these 'rock's were filled with black powder and a threaded cap and painted black.The Idea was to mix the pipe bombs essentially in the coal bin of a steam boat railroad engine.few seconds in that intense heat of the fire box and boom there goes the boiler with its tremendous steam pressure destroying much of the target, the fires resulting did the rest.Nothings new in war.The shaped xcharge i interpret as a HEAT chrge the imp platter charge with a stel platter is a kinetic
energy weapon useful offroad against inf and armor depending on size/placement of the device.We made a small evice in the military from materials availble on most US garages an 1/2 lb of a med vel exp 6250MPS approx.The target plate of armore stel 1 in thickn was penetratd like it had ben hit by a high velocity
tank round 1/2 the size of the original platter and it wasnt a penetration from a heat type charge not with obvious spalling present id judge the plate was struck at aproximately 1200MPS and the 50lb penetratd target plate was thrown in the air some 75 ft.Just for what its worth these supposed technical wonders are easily made in any metalshop worth the name.Iran in no way needs supply the copper platters for the EFPs.

Posted by: grndpndr at January 22, 2008 09:15 AM

Has the US army heard of having checkpoints at ALL entry roads into Baghdad. No other forces necessary-just block ALL access to Baghdad. Isnt that what you would do in the States. It would free up all kinds of manpower-wasting schemes such as are used now. And why are the highways able to ferry terrorists around like they owned the place.How bout a highway patrol used in America. And use mines where too hairy to put your best.Forget bout opinion,u are at WAR-get it.Time to get heavy & win this before your ousted boys. Do the right thing and kill your enemies. Forget collaterall damage-in long run less will die from mines & more enemy die=VICTORY. Then leave in time. Use your best tools-forget all else. VICTORYto U all.

Posted by: rick at March 20, 2007 05:44 PM

Has the US army heard of having checkpoints at ALL entry roads into Baghdad. No other forces necessary-just block ALL access to Baghdad. Isnt that what you would do in the States. It would free up all kinds of manpower-wasting schemes such as are used now. And why are the highways able to ferry terrorists around like they owned the place.How bout a highway patrol used in America. And use mines where too hairy to put your best.Forget bout opinion,u are at WAR-get it.Time to get heavy & win this before your ousted boys. Do the right thing and kill your enemies. Forget collaterall damage-in long run less will die from mines & more enemy die=VICTORY. Then leave in time. Use your best tools-forget all else. VICTORYto U all.

Posted by: rick at March 20, 2007 05:43 PM

A prior poster mentioned using an IR emitter on the lead vehicle to trigger the IED before troops or vehicles enter its kill zone. This is in fact a possible solution.

You are correct that passive infrared (PIR) detectors don't require a separate IR source to trigger. However, they can easily be triggered by a moving IR source such as an IR LASER or even a very bright visible light (vehicle headlamps emit quite a lot of IR energy along with the white light).

I've worked with PIR detectors in the security industry for nearly 30 years and I can assure you that most of them will trip if a bright IR beam strikes them.

Posted by: Robert L Bass at November 24, 2006 06:40 PM

I can't believe the ignorant comments some of you have made. Armchair Generals as well as current/past soldiers. It's one thing to try and help our soldiers out, but another to sit back like a coward and ridicule the way things are being run. Most of you read too much into some of the things being said. Yes, there are EFP's that are disguised as rocks...by saying this, it means that they are painted and or plastered around the shape charge as to hide it's usual cylindrical shape. That doesn't have anything to do with hindering it's ability. TRUST ME! I deal with these things every day as a part of a Route Clearance team in Iraq. We have countermeasures for the IR, but what you have to understand is that the sensors used are passive. Just like mentioned before, similar to the ones in your home. It's basically a motion detector. If you lazy fatass armchair generals would like to play out your little star wars fantasies as a mercenary over here, then please feel free to contact me, as I would be more than happy to arrange it. Until then, sit back and be happy that there are people in the great U.S. of A. that are willing to fight for a cause much greater than your freedom of speech, or rather nagging.

Posted by: Fighting4U at November 11, 2006 03:14 AM

2750 dead and rapidly increasing ! Troops death from IED now up to 5 per day. This IED raping of our Humvee and troops is getting to be ridiculous !.....

Donald Rumsfled and the goons at the Pentagon should be face criminal investigation for their failures to REPLACE THE HUMVEE (THE STUPIDEST FIGHTING VEHICLE EVER DEVELOPED BY ANY NATION).....

You would think that after 3 years of IEDs, the monkies at the Pentagon would have said enough with Humvees and replace them with state of the art combat vehicles. WHATEVER HAPPEN TO THE ULTRA ARMORED VEHICLE that was developed last year ? The concept of Rounded Cabin to deflect blast damage from IED should work.

If Rumsfled and the Bush administration has gotten somekind of payoff from Chrystler, the maker of Humvee, to continue the Humvee service in Iraq, then there will be HELL TO PAY....

What ever happen to the WW II "can do" mentality ? Produce new equipments for soldiers to counter the enemy threat!

IF WE STAY AT THIS COURSE.... WE WILL LOSE THIS WAR !

"angry words from a soldier who is tired of seeing his comrades killed, maime, dismembered, and torn apart due to the incompetence and treacherous actions and inactions of the politicians."

Posted by: 9/11 Avenger at October 5, 2006 02:10 AM

If IR detectors on the IEDs,
Then powerful infrared emitters on the lead vehicle of varying frequencies.
Can it be that simple?

Posted by: Top Cat at March 17, 2006 01:40 PM

Aright people, just so there isn't any confusion PASSIVE Infrared, you do not need two sensors. Think of a motion detector in a house for a security alarm, or motion activated outside lights. That's passive infrared. It doesn't put out any light, instead it has two or more sensors inside that measure infrared light. When there is a change in incoming light, it activates. Depending on the sensor, the change has to be dramatic enough to close the circut. But there is no beam crossing the road or anything like that. Just trying to clarify what we're actually dealing out here, and we're still looking for a way to combat these. Peace, from Baghdad

Posted by: Carni at February 18, 2006 03:33 AM

I have run into a few EFP's here in Baghdad. We have a few countermeasures against them...but we are always looking to find out new info.

The are put in styrofoam containers, painted up like blocks of concrete, and usually laid near barriers here. They are always triggered by PIR sensors. They are coming in from Iran, and Iranians are paying locals ROYALLY to set them out.

The thing we have on our side, is they can only hit us is there isnt any civilian traffic around us. They dont want to waste them on hitting civilians...because they only get paid if they hit us.

Anyway, any extra info in PIR would be awesome...

Posted by: tobiascore at February 17, 2006 03:08 PM

IR detectors use light in the IR range - it doesn't REQUIRE heat. Also, "IR trippers" can be of the motion detector type bought for a few bucks - these don't have a reflector (such as 'Shack Catalog #:49-426 " http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102584&cp " Imagine how cheap the required parts are in bulk!
As for shaped charges - Of course they're real and real easy! I've experienced them going off encased in lime/concrete and still be effective! To be most effective a shell is used like the aerodynamic nosecone on an RPG. The "shape" is actually inverted the "blast" however resembles the protective cone concentrating at the point. The homemade IEDs with the copper projectiles in the plasma are the worst that I've seen. They concentrate the blast and cut hole all the way through whatever is in front of them. Imagine a slug of molten copper moving at hypersonic speeds .... Not being in front of it or redirecting the blast works better than any armor.
For the armchair generals: the procurement/supply system of ANY middle to large sized entity takes time. Even for something as simple as body armor. By the time enough is ordered and before it is made a better kind is available. This is why we don't all deploy with the top of the line. The line keeps moving!

Must rest now ...

Posted by: Max at February 2, 2006 09:50 AM

The IR activated IEDs are a big threat since they are not easy to detect and are now becoming shape-charged. I have not seen these up front, but wouldn't radar detectors used in vehicles be able to pick up or sense these beams from a mile or so? Its like when you drive downtown...your radar goes off like crazy unless you put it in city mode. Maybe they use a different bandwidth, I don't know. During the day, Night Vision Goggles (NVG) wouldn't do much good in picking up the sensors.

Posted by: cellblock131 at February 1, 2006 02:26 PM

Shaped charges can be covered by inert material that makes them look like rocks. The whole function of the shaped charge however, is dependant on the stream of fire produced by the Monro effect of the cone shape. Critical to that is the open space in the cone which both focuses the force of the blast and gives it direction. That's why the standoff distance is critical. The cone can be lined with supporting material, copper works well, but the cone must be hollow to make the charge work. Something shaped on the outside like a rock must be made of stuff that will not deflect the blast of the charge or that will defeat its purpose.
So.
Predetonating C4 plastic shaped charges that are fused for command or tripwire is real tough. The best method is to go after the priming cap itself, as C4 is about as stable as any explosive out there to shock or concussion. A physical flail device mounted as in WWII Sherman "Funnies" will probably only work on mines and other pressure sensitive bombs. I would think an EMP device that throws massive energy waves ahead of a convoy will serve to prematurely detonate electronic primers and caps.
Food for thought.

Posted by: Squidly at February 1, 2006 10:21 AM

just in case anyone out there is wondering i've already been there done that in '91, if some of you can second guess everything going on and think you would have seen it coming, then by all means share your crystal ball with the rest of us. these " people" we are fighting right now are TERRORISTS, not insurgents, they are attempting to achieve political ends through terror. if everyone here ( polititions, media, ect.) would shut up and stop helping our ENEMIES achieve their political goals, and rendering them aid and comfort. this war would already be OVER! if they think that we do not have the resolve and fortitude to see this through, they will try to outlast us. if our enemies saw us actually united and not sqabbling and trying to make political hash on tv, they would have folded their tents up and tried somewhere else, at another time. and i did go down to the recruiter's office, they want a medical waiver for me to come back. anybody else wanna put their money where their mouth is?

Posted by: ed at January 31, 2006 10:13 PM

I am a ten year 100 % Service connected disabled Veteran. I was appalled and the statements about shape charges that were only used for making craters in roads. I guarantee you that I can make a shape charge explode in any direction I want, to include placing one in the middle of a road upside down, and blow a holle in the bottom of a humvee, that you could drive an 18 wheeler through. That's exactly why they are called shape charges. I took my EOD traning in Vilseck, GY. I graduated 5th in a class of 85 people.

One thing you have to remember here is that infra red trippers, must have a beginning at one end, and a reciever at the other end. In order for that device to explode, something has to cross through the beam and break it, before you can have an explosian to occurr. Any fool with common sense can figure out how to start a fire with a laser, but it won't make a bomb go off unlees like I said earlier something must break that beam of light.

Posted by: Recon3 at January 31, 2006 09:58 PM

I do not see Any humor in the Dangers Our troops face on a daily basis in a combat zone. maybe some of you armchair analyst would volunteer to rplace them?

Posted by: Bobby Garner at January 31, 2006 09:57 PM

bombs shaped as rocks were used by the afgani's against the soviets during their occupation of afganistan, so that part is probably true. shaped charges can be made to have a certain standoff to be most effective. instead of shaped charges it is probably directed explosions ( claymores anyone?)or "platter charges" like we've been using in anti tank mines since ww2.

Posted by: ed at January 31, 2006 09:53 PM

I dont buy shape charges shaped like rocks. The shape charge is called that because it has explosive shaped like an inverted cone. The explosive energy is focused into a narrow beam like a torch cutting through metal. I dont know where you are getting your reporters from but shaped charges dont look like rocks.

In addition the position of the charge aginst the armor is important so you dont just prop the charge along side the road.

The rock shape charge is like the Clip name some reporters give to magazines for magazine fed weapons. The M1 Grand was the last clip fed shoulder held weapon we issued.

Posted by: Robert L Birt at January 31, 2006 07:16 PM

As with most armchair generals, your comments, sir, are clueless. Thank you for not joining the military.

Posted by: Chuck Holton at January 31, 2006 06:47 PM

Films from WWII show heavily armored for the time tanks with spinning devices with chains attached digging up the minefields. In Vietnam besides Agent Orange the Engineers had GIANT pieces of heavy equipment that worked similarly with the driver he was so high in the air he was out of danger but everytime he heard a boom he had his hairs stand on end. I'll bet I could take a radio control pack out of a toy car and rig it to a military vehicle with minimal hydraulic controls (Basic missile launcher technology of the 50's) The answers in their hands MI just still hasn't learned it takes 2 hands to clap. IT HAS TO COST MONEY OR THE GENERALS WON'T GET A GOOD JOB AT RETIREMENT. Joe

Posted by: Joe Belle-Isle at January 31, 2006 05:41 PM

IR means it is heat activated no? Therefore you can set it off with heat. How about a modified flame thrower with a hot but low volume output.

A large propane tourch on a long bamboo rod reaching out from the lead vehicle maybe.

A laser that can be humvee mounted and directed at rocks along the road side in advance of the lead car.

A wide cheap radio controlled go cart with propane heaters mounted. $1,200 bucks maybe. Much cheaper than death benefits. Insane to trip these bombs with a Humvee filled with troops.

Posted by: Mel at January 31, 2006 05:20 PM

fascinating to learn infra red tripwire HAS to come from Iran, via Hizbolla......is that where my garage door safety interruptor came from?
Ah, yes, the Iranians MUST be behind it! Only Perle, Wolfowitz, & the C-in-C (!) can save us.........

Posted by: MUTT at January 31, 2006 05:14 PM

>Pedestrian are you saying we can detect IED's?

>How come a majority of the 50 US troops killed
>every month are killed by IED's?

The capability of current technology to detect, and accessibility to the technology (in terms of cost, amount, mass productivity) is a different issue. Take a look at UAH. It sure took a long time to get many of the HMMWV going UAH. There are some experimental equipments and prototypes out in Iraq. Not everyone in Iraq are going to get VMADS. There are not going to be enough for every one to have the most advanced equipments in hand as well. No, there are not that many and some will have to risk lives for that. These prototypes and experiment models (some sent to Iraq) are not for mass production. It requires testing to seek for flaws and portions that may be improved with feedback. It might be worth enough to do the job, but that would be gambling for manufacturing thousands of prototypes. You can't jump from Study Phase to Feedback Phase of the SDLC. You need to go through several phases, need to set up the factory lines, and teach employers how to build them. You could have the technology at the time, but you still need to test it, and plan for mass production. Capability and accessibility is a different issue.

Posted by: pedestrian at January 28, 2006 07:53 AM

Pedestrian are you saying we can detect IED's?

How come a majority of the 50 US troops killed every month are killed by IED's?

Are you saying we have the technology and the Generals have a lack of morals bringing the technology onto the battlefield?

I see alot of problems in the Military. One is they are charged too much money for the equipment they have. They waste lots of money on useless research projects, and they pay too much. Then the other problems are lack of tactic and strategy in actually fighting war.

We have all this airsupremecy, high tech electronics-- yet we send out HUMVEE patrols in a dangerous battlefield to get blown up by planted explosives. Or we setup bases in mortar range from Iraqi population and give our soldiers trailer parks to live in with no protection. Etc.

Dont send out vehicle patrols. Setup bases away from population. Send in airplanes and robot scouts. Locate enemy with airborne surveilance and airplane dropped listening/sensor devices. Engage enemy with long range indirect fire or airpower. Im sure we would of had thousands of lives saved. A little patience goes a long ways when lives are on the line. It is not IMPERATIVE that every Iraqi enemy is killed as fast as possible. Why not take the time and do it safe.

I will never join the Military. EVER. If I had to fight, I would do so with a homemade arsenal under my own command as a mercenary.

Idiots.

Yes our Military is kind of badass, but that means nothing if you charge with bayonets instead of shooting off your cannons and muskets first (analogy).

Whatever, im not a general. Good luck to the US Military.

-Armchair general JTW

Posted by: jtw at January 27, 2006 03:04 PM

Thanks for the disinformation...

>We need a wheeled armored patrol vehicle to replace the HUMVEE in Iraq now.

Tell Pentagon to replace HMMWVs with Guardians.

>For 500+ billion a year we cant detect buried explosives.

Oh yeah?

>Wouldn't a 360 degreee IR light or lights be a countermeasure for an IR tripwire trigger?

If you got ideas, don't post them here. E-mail to Pentagon.

>Didn't Hezbollah use mines disguised as rocks in South Lebanon against the Israelis?

I don't know about the imitation rocks, but the concept of IR trip wire is thought to be exported to Iraq from Iran by the assistance of Hizbollah.

>If so you might be able to see the IR with a night scope and a IR filter to block the visable light.

One idiot from the military mentioned about that technique that public on AP. That was really irritating and risking lives. If you got ideas, don't post them here. E-mail them to Pentagon.

>This may sound odd, but would not some sort of remote control vehicle out in front of a convoy trip an IR beam?

If you are mentioning the "Remote Controlled", then you might also have to consider the delays of response via wireless communication. There are also risks of jamming to interfere.

Posted by: pedestrian at January 27, 2006 08:52 AM

This may sound odd, but would not some sort of remote control vehicle out in front of a convoy trip an IR beam?

Posted by: Stuart at January 26, 2006 09:16 PM

Are these IR triggers on IEDs like an interupted light beam? If so you might be able to see the IR with a night scope and a IR filter to block the visable light. I have used ordinary digital cameras to see if IR leds are working. Try http://www.maxmax.com/aXNiteFilters.htm for filters.
Good Luck

Posted by: PMB at January 26, 2006 08:19 PM

Didn't Hezbollah use mines disguised as rocks in South Lebanon against the Israelis? I think the IR tripwire is a new wrinkle, though. I had this discussion back in December with my dad, standing in his garage. He's got an automatic garage door opener and all of them are now equipped with a sensor that prevents the door from closing if there's something in the path of the door (a child or a bicycle or something). I pointed to it and called it "a potential weapons proliferation issue." He thought I was crazy. I wish I was.

FirstCav is correct in that the response to more armor is more firepower. In general, it's easier to increase the punch of the penetration than increase the armor because the armor has to cover everything while the penetrator only has to be strong on a very narrow frontage. This was the vicious circle that sank the battleship and put plate armor into museums. It's not as if more armor isn't better, but there's a practical weight limit to any land vehicle and it is, at best, a partial solution.

The fact is that this remains a political problem, not a military one. The insurgents are rejecting the new government because they see it as a Quisling government. Vague promises from the US to leave "eventually" are not reassuring them. The insurgents have sufficient support in the population to keep this thing going. Their losses are being replaced by the environment. More armor is not going to stop this. More troops probably won't help much, either.

Posted by: James at January 26, 2006 07:17 PM

> The only solution is to bring in people who actually know what they're doing and get rid of incompetents like Rumsfeld. Send in the extra 3-400K troops Gen Shinseki warned us it'd take to do the job right or get everybody the hell out. Get them out and learn to deal with the fact that thanks to GWB the most powerful military in the history of the planet has just been defeated by a bunch of amateurs...

> No, what we need is cutting defense spending on useless stuff.

> For 500+ billion a year we cant detect buried explosives.

Ok since we already know that neither of those is ever going to happen, why don't we focus on something that is admittedly only slightly more likely to happen...

Let's influence our Congressmen and Senators to make the Pentagon acquire one of the several off the shelf armored patrol vehicles that are more survivable then a armored HUMVEE.

Baby steps...

Posted by: Enchi at January 26, 2006 05:51 PM

>...We need a wheeled armored patrol vehicle to replace the HUMVEE in Iraq now. All of them. They are just not made for this type of conflict.

And just how likely do you think that's going to happen with idiots like Rumsfeld in charge? They didn't even have enough bullets and had to run to Israel to get more.

When you get down to it, losing one or two troops a day because their trucks didn't have enough armor isn't a big deal to the military. Besides, you put more armor on a truck, they'll just build bigger IEDs till they defeat the extra armor. Then you start adding more armor and they build bigger IEDs... You see the pattern?

The only solution is to bring in people who actually know what they're doing and get rid of incompetents like Rumsfeld. Send in the extra 3-400K troops Gen Shinseki warned us it'd take to do the job right or get everybody the hell out. Get them out and learn to deal with the fact that thanks to GWB the most powerful military in the history of the planet has just been defeated by a bunch of amateurs...

...Wait, I think I've seen this movie before.

Posted by: FirstCav at January 26, 2006 04:36 PM

Wouldn't a 360 degreee IR light or lights be a countermeasure for an IR tripwire trigger?

Posted by: George at January 26, 2006 04:15 PM

No, what we need is cutting defense spending on useless stuff.

For 500+ billion a year we cant detect buried explosives.

That is pitiful. Our scientists fail.

Im sure there are hundreds of thousands of people on the payroll developing things for the Military that arent qualified to invent a toothpick, nevermind defense related technology.

Lets put the money with the smartest people and let the rest work at McDonalds. We waste so much money it is a wonder other countries even accept our currency. It cant possibly have any integrity by all the wannabee scientists who make a living here.

We should be called "Socialist Republic of the United States of America".

Posted by: jtw at January 26, 2006 04:14 PM

> ....And an American public with a little more stomach for hard sacrifice.

So what's your excuse, Bucky? Too old? Too fat? Too scared? Put the Cheetos away, get up off the d*mned couch and waddle down to your local recruiting office to sign up.

They're always looking for a few good people to (make the ultimate) sacrifice.

Posted by: FirstCav at January 26, 2006 04:10 PM

It's easy to talk about hard sacrifice when you're butt's not on the line everyday.

Posted by: me at January 26, 2006 02:53 PM

What we need is a Sunni/al-Qaeda split, a continually improving Iraqi Army and police force, and an American public with a little more stomach for hard sacrifice.

Posted by: Stefan Moluf at January 26, 2006 02:34 PM

If tv news reports and pictures i've seen on these types of IED's are to be believed, these are capable of making an armored HUMVEE look like swiss cheese. They are even said to be capable off defeating the armor in many APC's.

Very scary stuff.

We need a wheeled armored patrol vehicle to replace the HUMVEE in Iraq now. All of them. They are just not made for this type of conflict.

Enchi-

Posted by: Enchi at January 26, 2006 02:18 PM