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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

NSA Sweep "Waste of Time," Analyst Says

It'd be one thing if the NSA's massive sweep of our phone records was actually helping catch terrorists. But what if it's not working at all? A leading practitioner of the kind of analysis the NSA is supposedly performing in this surveillance program says that "it's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free."

Re-reading the USA Today piece, one paragraph jumped out:

This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for 'social network analysis,' the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.

So I called Valdis Krebs, who's considered by many to be the leading authority on social network analysis -- the art and science of finding the important connections in a seemingly-impenetrable mass of data. His analysis of the social network surrounding the 9/11 hijackers is a classic in the field.

step_2.gifHere's what Krebs had to say about the newly-revealed NSA program that aims to track "every call ever made": "If you're looking for a needle, making the haystack bigger is counterintuitive. It just doesn't make sense."

"Certain people are more suspicious than others," he adds. They make frequent trips back-and-forth to Afghanistan, for instance. "So you start with them. And you work two steps out. If none of those people are connected, you don't have a cell. Because if one was there, you'd find some clustering. You don't have to collect all the data in the world to do that."

The right thing to do is to look for the best haystack, not the biggest haystack. We knew exactly which haystack to look at in the year 2000 [before the 9/11 attacks]. We just didn't do it...

The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free.

UPDATE 2:30 PM: Shane Harris broke this story, in broad strokes, back in March, Patrick reminds us. Harris also offers a possible explanation for some of the NSA program's massive size:

To find meaningful patterns in transactional data, analysts need a lot of it. They must set baselines about what constitutes "normal" behavior versus "suspicious" activity. Administration officials have said that the NSA doesn't intercept the contents of a communication unless officials have a "reasonable" basis to conclude that at least one party is linked to a terrorist organization.

To make any reasonable determination like that, the agency needs hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of call records, preferably as soon as they are created, said a senior person in the defense industry who is familiar with the NSA program and is an expert in the analytical tools used to find patterns and connections. Asked if this means that the NSA program is much broader and less targeted than administration officials have described, the expert replied, "I think that's correct."

Harris also fingers a likely program set of research efforts to help the NSA better comb through all this data: "Novel Intelligence from Massive Data," or NIMD. Its goal is to develop "techniques and tools that assist analysts not only in dealing with massive data, but also in interactively making explicit - and modifying and updating - their current analytic (cognitive) state, which includes not only their hypotheses, but also their knowledge, interests, and biases."

You'll be shocked to hear that NIMD's website has been taken offline. But you can find Goggle caches about the program here, here, here, and here.

UPDATE 5:19 PM: "To me, it's pretty clear that the people working on this program aren't as smart as they think they are," says former Air Force counter-terrorist specialist John Robb. "Some top level thinking indicates that this will quickly become a rat hole for federal funds (due to wasted effort) and a major source of infringement of personal freedom." John gives a bunch of reasons why. Here's just one:

It will generate oodles of false positives. Al Qaeda is now in a phase where most domestic attacks will be generated by people not currently connected to the movement (like we saw in the London bombings). This means that in many respects they will look like you and me until they act. The large volume of false positives generated will not only be hugely inefficient, it will be a major infringement on US liberties. For example, a false positive will likely get you automatically added to a no-fly list, your boss may be visited (which will cause you to lose your job), etc.

UPDATE 6:23 PM: And now, the rebuttal. I just got off the phone with a source who has extensive experience in these matters. And he disagrees, strongly, with Krebs and Robb.

Really, the source said, there are two approaches to whittling down massive amounts of information: limiting what you search from the beginning -- or taking absolutely everything in, and sifting through it afterwards. In his experience, the source said, the approach of using "brute force... not optimally, not smartly" on the front end, and "cleaning [the data] up later" worked the best. Often times, other people don't know what you're searching for (or they don't have the same super-slick data-mining algorithms you've got). Better just to get it all.

In everything from speech analysis to sensor fusion, he argued, when you've got a weak signal masked by a lot of noise, "more data seems to be the answer... More data is what's going to allow you to get to ground truth."

Of course, there's a price to pay with this approach: a ton of false alarms. Several stages of filtering should fix that, he argued. Besides, "it's not like you call the FBI every time you get a hit."

Think of it as the Google approach. Wouldn't you rather have everything available on the search engine, and then do queries yourself?

UPDATE 05/12/06 8:52 AM: The rebuttal gets rebutted.

"I find it almost impossible to believe that the NSA has a system good enough to beat human int[elligence], selective tapping, and the kind of progressive extension that Krebs cites," an MIT professor says, who also passes along this handy graphic.

kevinBacon.jpg

You need to have a good understanding of the "classifiers" and functions appropriate for your data set -- developing the knowledge and techniques around finding those classifiers has taken [computer] vision [research] 30 years to get where it is (able to drive a car through a pre-set path in a desert, recognize one face out of a thousand with good rejection but many, many false positives)... Meaning fine, but not great... We have almost no idea how complex this issue is, but it's probably similar.

One thing about your "extensive experience" source is that he doesn't really specify what kind of search he was doing. People doing data mining may be looking in many different ways. For instance, if you have six million examples of successful stock price changes and six million examples of unsuccessful ones, you might look for other variables (past performance, location, etc.) that signal a difference -- any difference. Large data sets are definitely helpful for this. Getting machine learning to discover a specific thing -- like a familial bond based on telephone calls -- may or may not work at all. If all you have is frequency, there may be a half dozen other types of relationships that lead to numerous calls. There may never be a way of discerning relationship based on a single modality of communication. That's why most of the people I know are using millions of other sensors, like GPS, accelerometers, recording the voice, reading heart rate, etc. Then they may be able to say with moderate certainty that they can tell something from phone calls. The NSA can't do that with what USA Today says they're collecting.

UPDATE 05/12/06 11:48 AM: Click here to see if you can spot the difference between an Al-Qaeda cluster, and on from a Fortune 500 firm.

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The potential for SNA to be used by governments aiming to control their populations (define government) is far more powerful than its utility for countering terrorism. Furthermore, the potential is already there for security services to be using these techniques in order to get inside organisations of dissent and activism - the neo-cons political threats. I make this point at http://usofc.blogspot.com/2007/09/social-network-analysis-and-thought.html

Posted by: Alastair McGowan at September 20, 2007 05:52 AM


As I discuss on my own blog, The International Libertarian, social network analysis can't catch terrorists. More accurately, it is only good at catching stupid terrorists who are likely to get caught due to other screwups as well. Social network analysis does nothing to weed out sophisticated terrorist groups, particularly well trained "sleeper cells", which are the focus of the NSAs work, which allegedly justifies the gross violations of the civil liberties of normal folks.

I show how sophisticated insurgents can hack social network analysis to employ stealthing techniques that greatly reduces their observabilities in social networks.

Posted by: Mike Lorrey at June 7, 2006 07:01 PM


Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 25, 2006 12:31 AM

You can't get names right, so how can we expect you to get court case interpretations right? We can't.

Now I will get the last LOL on you.

Concerning the case you refer to:

Both you and Al G., Atty. Gen, are in error.

That case was in reference to one alleged criminal where there was probable cause of a crime being committed.

It does not equate to a nationwide dragnet (tyranny) of the entire civilian population!!!

What the NSA is doing is unconstitutional. I have already presented the proof. Everyone involved with the program is committing a crime and can face criminal prosecution, including those in the executive branch that condoned and approved of the program.

---------

While Kevin Schmidt claims that he has presented proof that the NSA's collection of call data records violates the Fourth Amendment, I respectfully disagree. Here's why:
1) Kevin Schmidt does not address (or even acknowledge) the fact that Smith v. Maryland says that certain business records--including telephone dialing records--do not require a search warrant under the Fourth Amendment.
2) He seems to claim (above) that probable cause is relevant in Smith v. Maryland and, hence, relevant to the NSA collection of call data. The majority opinion in Smith v. Maryland said nothing about probable cause with respect to phone records.
3) He seems to claim (above) that Smith v. Maryland cannot be applied to large populations. He offers no language from that decision or any other to support his claim.
4) He does not cite any legal authority to support his claims in 2) or 3).
5) He does not cite any legal authority who asserts that Smith v. Maryland is inapplicable here.
6) He does not cite any case law to support his position.
7) He does cite a magazine article, but it is not relevant to call data records.

In contrast, I can offer the plain language of Smith v. Maryland. (Available at [1].) The Supreme Court decision says, "This Court consistently has held that a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he [...] voluntarily turns over to third parties." The Court included telephone dialing records as information a person turns over to a third party. More specifically, the Court stated, "The installation and use of a pen register [, a mechanical device that records numbers dialed on a telephone ...] was not a 'search,' and no warrant was required."

It seems self-evident that Smith v. Maryland applies to the NSA's collection of call records. However, for those who might disagree, I can also offer the opinions of multiple lawyers who believe that the NSA's collection of call data does not violate the Fourth Amendment.

For example, according to George Washington University Law Professor Orin Kerr, "The Fourth Amendment issues are straightforward. It sounds like the program involves only non-content surveillance, which means that it presumably doesnt implicate the Fourth Amendment under Smith v. Maryland." [2] (Note: This is Kerr's preliminary analysis as of May 11, 2005; I'm not aware of a change in his position re Smith v. Maryland.)

According to attorney David Gartenstein-Ross, "[T]he alleged government data collection described by USA Today does not, on its face, violate the Fourth Amendment [...]" [3]

According to the AP, as reported in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., [...] said the Intelligence Committee's legal counsel concluded that basic information, such as phone numbers dialed, is not protected under the Constitution's Fourth Amendment. [...] He said that concept hinges on a 1979 Supreme Court case, Smith v. Maryland." [4]

As reported in The Washington Post, "[Attorney General Alberto] Gonzales told reporters [on May 23, 2006] that, under the Smith v. Maryland ruling, 'those kinds of records do not enjoy Fourth Amendment protection. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in those kinds of records.'" [5]

Finally, as also reported in The Washington Post, "G. Jack King Jr. of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers said Gonzales is correct in saying 'the administration isn't violating the Fourth Amendment' [...]" (King does claim a violation of a 1986 law, but the discussion here is about the Fourth Amendment.) [6]

I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions.

Links:
[1] http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735&friend=oyez
[2] http://www.orinkerr.com/2006/05/11/thoughts-on-the-legality-of-the-latest-nsa-surveillance-program/
[3] http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDZjMDllOTRlYmFlMmQ3ZGEzNDJjNzExYjZiNGMxZWM=
[4] http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1151AP_Bush_Phone_Records.html
[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/23/AR2006052301594.html?nav=rss_nation
[6] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/24/AR2006052402329.html

Posted by: JerryP at May 28, 2006 04:52 PM


Posted by: JerryP at May 12, 2006 09:30 PM

You can't get names right, so how can we expect you to get court case interpretations right? We can't.

Now I will get the last LOL on you.

Concerning the case you refer to:

Both you and Al G., Atty. Gen, are in error.

That case was in reference to one alleged criminal where there was probable cause of a crime being committed.

It does not equate to a nationwide dragnet (tyranny) of the entire civilian population!!!

What the NSA is doing is unconstitutional. I have already presented the proof. Everyone involved with the program is committing a crime and can face criminal prosecution, including those in the executive branch that condoned and approved of the program.

Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 25, 2006 12:31 AM


Fascinating conversation. Should be more mainstream than it is. But the media is busy doing, um, what again?

Meanwhile, Bob above makes a fairly irrelevant point, that one is guilty of assumptions because the programs tracks "tens of million," rather than "hundreds of millions." The program is designed to track every call, Bob, whatever that number is. And your reference then to the same USA Writer that you rely upon for your "clarification," is backwards.

Posted by: Ivan Carter at May 16, 2006 11:09 PM


I don't believe the Bush administration is using the information to track down Al Qaeda; they're trying to figure out where their biggest political threats are and to eliminate them through some seemingly innocuous legislation that we won't see for what it is and therefore won't know enough to be afraid of.

It's not about them spying on us, it's about them preventing us from spying on them. We're not the ones doing stuff we shouldn't--they are. It's another brilliant plan executed by the men who stole two elections, manipulated intelligence and sent us to war so they would have a constant reason to infringe on our personal freedoms and take our money.

The only area of competence, literally, the ONLY area of competence this administration has demonstrated is in the area of public manipulation of information. They have failed, miserably, at every other task put to them. They have focused all their energy and expertise on controlling what we believe and none of their efforts have gone into addressing actual problems and/or providing effective programs to help the American people be safe and prosperous.

They need to monitor our communications so they can know how the internet hurts/helps them politically. They are looking for patterns.This is not about fighting Al-Qaeda, this is data mining. They are not just looking at phone calls, it's really emails (like the kind you get from MoveOn.org and Common Cause) that are the focus here, I think.

This is at the heart of what should be the national debate and it's time we started facing facts: if they get away with the NSA program and we let them slide on the failure to enforce net neutrality, we will lose our democracy. The only thing that keeps us from being a dictatorship now is immediate, uncensored, access to critical information.

When the 2006 mid-term elections create the usual political in-fighting, let's hope somebody is smart enough to disable the argument about our privacy rights being a rational sacrifice to the fight on terror and start calling it like it is.

This is a clear violation of our Constitutional rights for the purpose of understanding and manipulating OUR information gathering processes, such that we lose our access to free and unfettered information about our own government. That's what's at stake here.

And while we're at it, it's time to make a distinction between conspiracy theorists (who make stuff up) and people who merely have the ability to recognize a conspiracy when they see one.

Posted by: Laurie Fosner at May 15, 2006 03:30 PM


The NSA sweep just revealed--as likely as not by the administration itself*--is clearly all but useless for preemption purposes, very useful though for after-the-fact retribution purposes (think Plame).

* Why? Since arguably, they've calculated they'll win-out yet again over the press and civil liberties watchdogs. Maybe demolish them altogether--or at least ride the backlash through the mid-term election.

Posted by: Ken at May 13, 2006 02:12 PM


correction: The security merchants SING a very seductive song ...

Posted by: wilsonkolb at May 13, 2006 12:14 PM


Some reactions from a mere civilian:

1. This will be used in the first instance to place every journalist under close surveillance for the purpose of plugging "leaks" of embarrassing information and probably for blackmailing some of them.

2. I respect mathematical approaches but have a healthy skepticism toward them. One consistent issue is these solutions to tend toward the self-referential, whether we call it collinearity or confusing between correlation and causality or data mining or survivor bias or I am sure a whole lot of far more elegant concepts.

3. Strict regimes of any sort frequently never catch those who didn't care about rules to begin with. I call it the "Good Kid Syndrome." You know, the hall monitor always gets the good kid the first time he steps out of line. The bad kids walk free. You see it in situations everywhere; this is no different. It wasn't a lack of information that caused the 9/11 plot to be undetected.

4. Once you've designed a "terrorist net," its application will expand. It will start with journalists, and then expand to pedophiles and child abductors. And then we'll be off to the races. The end result will be a society with each member monitored 24/7, because the "model" is a beast that will always demand that one more category of data.

Trust me, the day will come when brain scans and DNA results go into it. The security merchants since a very, very seductive song. It is always wrong, but no matter.

5. One other point. You might think that extremely smart people wouldn't slide down those slopes. Au contraire, I say. In fact, it's the highly intelligent who are the MOST susceptible to fads and fashions, provided they are intelliectually rigorous at least on the surface.

Why? Because a very intelligent person is forever questioning the probabalistic universe. He aches for a unifying theory, especially one that only he and his peers can truly (think they) grasp.

Two very specific examples: Look at the role of "portfolio insurance" in the 1987 stock crash, and look carefully at the mathematical structure of the Nobek Prize winning "Modern Portfolio Theory." Embedded in all those elegant equations are some laughably simple fundamental flaws.

So let's not kid ourselves into think a technocratic elite is going to keep this from happening. Hell, these are the people who gave us the atomic bomb, and on that the jury is definitely still out.

Posted by: wilsonkolb at May 13, 2006 12:10 PM


Correction: Please read "Kevin Schmidt" for "Kevin Smith" in my last post. My apologies.

Posted by: JerryP at May 12, 2006 09:33 PM


With respect to Smith v. Maryland, Kevin Smith wrote: "That is not the same situation. You just don't know the law. LOL"

Smith v. Maryland says: "The installation and use of a pen register, [...] was not a 'search,' and no warrant was required." If it isn't clear, again quoting from the case, "A pen register is a mechanical device that records the numbers dialed on a telephone [...] It does not overhear oral communications ..."

More generally, "This Court consistently has held that a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he [...] voluntarily turns over to third parties." In this case, when someone dials a number, the dialer voluntarily turns over the dialing information to a third party, the telephone company. Under Smith v. Maryland, the NSA did not violate the Fourth Amendment in accessing phone company records with the phone company's permission.

Kevin Smith also wrote: "Here is a group of CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS who explain exactly why the NSA is violating the law:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18650"

The cited article was written in February. It addresses NSA electronic surveillance, i.e., wiretapping--listening to the contents of telephone communications.

However, we are not discussing NSA wiretapping today. The issue is NSA's collection of call data (not call contents), such as phone numbers to/from which calls are placed.

The New York Review of Books article does not address this issue. If you do have some relevant cites I'd be glad to see them.

Posted by: JerryP at May 12, 2006 09:30 PM


Folks are overlooking a key point of NSA Personal Data collection. They are collecting much more then phone numbers. With the data stores they have available this it just the start of it. I like the analogy to Google. Just think of the government supplied application for state and local police forces... Type in a name, get all the NSA collected info over decades, along with spot adds for special lookups (tax fraud... ie failure to pay sales tax on internet purchases, theft... ie. Stealing music from the Beatles) . This is truly the beginning of big brother. 1984 just coming a bit late.... Animal farm happening... and no way to communicate except hand made posters....

Posted by: gary K at May 12, 2006 08:30 PM


Here is a group of CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS who explain exactly why the NSA is violating the law:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18650

Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 12, 2006 06:14 PM


A previous poster wrote: "[T]he NSA (spy on every American with a phone) program is in violation of the Fourth Amendment."

Not according to the Supreme Court. Look at Smith v. Maryland: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735&friend=oyez

Posted by: JerryP at May 12, 2006 03:17 PM

------------------

That is not the same situation. You just don't know the law. LOL

What the NSA is doing a violation of the Fourth Amendment as well as FISA. That point is quite clear. The NSA cannot conduct wholesale spying on every phone call in America. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 12, 2006 05:23 PM


A previous poster wrote: "[T]he NSA (spy on every American with a phone) program is in violation of the Fourth Amendment."

Not according to the Supreme Court. Look at Smith v. Maryland: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=442&invol=735&friend=oyez

Posted by: JerryP at May 12, 2006 03:17 PM


To John: "Evil is not synonomous with stupid". Oh no? How does that explain the chimp-in-charge, or Reagan, who was described as:"dumb as a stump"?

Posted by: willymack at May 12, 2006 12:24 PM


Actually it's not a waste of time at all. The NSA needs all that data to find the ELS codes that will help them predict terrorist incidents.

Posted by: Jon Swift at May 12, 2006 03:28 AM

----

Why should we believe you? What makes you an authority? Watching FAUX GNUS and drinking Neocon Kool-aid?

And your comment does nothing to address the fact that the NSA (spy on every American with a phone) program is in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Who's next? Democrats? Liberals? Pro-choice advocates? Gays? Quakers? Oh, sorry, they are already spied upon.

Get the point?

Americans are sick of Bush/Cheney. They are the ones who are causing the terrorism and abridging our freedoms for their own political and personal gains. They must and will be stopped!!!

http://www.codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=894

Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 12, 2006 11:27 AM


Terrorist incidents can easily be stopped as soon as we stop our imperialistic ambitions in the Middle East.

I am more concerned with tyranny incidents, which there are billions occuring every day whenever the NSA, as ordered by the Bush/Cheney administration and in violation of the Fourth Amendment, records who we call and who calls us.

Every person involved with this wide scale tyranny is guilty of crimes against the American people. Following illegal orders ,even those illegal orders from the White House, does not excuse them of their crimes.

Posted by: KEVIN SCHMIDT, STERLING VA at May 12, 2006 11:16 AM


This data as a means to track al Qaeda is too polluted to make any sense. No one I know who wants to discuss something truly confidential does so over the phone. Why think any terrorist would? Evil is not synonymous with stupid.

This vast database collection -- reported to be intended to be EVERYONE in short time -- as described by the government site would make sense if you were collecting network information on political enemies. How handy that this veil gives it "top secret" cover and protection, so we can never know what they do with it. LOL

I've not seen one iota of rationale as to why we should believe the purpose of the data collection is to find terrorists.

Unlike use for a terrorist search, where almost everyone picked up is useless to the purpose and a waste of finite resources, all data IS useful if it were collected to compile a political-network database ... every hit will fall into one of three categories: friend, foe or apolitcal (or good fish, bad fish, throw-back-in-the-pond-and-check-later fish, in a continuing program, and this program may have really started in late 2000).

It can provide just the kind of political database that KKKarl would have loved to have had before the presidential campaign, back when he owned that direct-marketing company, which recent reports indicate he really still owns and is just being operated in a former employee's name right now.

As they say, follow the money ...

Posted by: John at May 12, 2006 09:12 AM


I've not read all the comments so someone else may have pointed this out, but I thought data mining algorithms were not efficient for this type of analysis.

As someone mentioned in the article, aren't there going to be huge amounts of false positives?

So let's assume that the program is 90% effective. (Given that it's technology it won't be, but we need to start somewhere.) So 90% of the population of the U.S. is totally innocent, but 10% has something "odd" in their background according to this program.

The CIA world factbook entry for the United States estimates the population at 298,444,215. So if that number is correct, and 10% of the population has something odd in their background, that means 29,844,421 people are going to be investigated. That's the combined population of New York and Ohio.

Granted, the "something odd" is probably not going to be terrorism, but the idea of putting the population of two states under a microscope makes me really question what this program is trying to do. All the information that the NSA is gathering may be harmless by itself, but combine the information with credit card buying activity and the information gathered by companies like LexisNexis and you get something really scary.

What is to stop a government staff member from using this system to gather information about a congressman, Supreme Court Justice, or other candidate and using that information to destroy the candidate? Especially if the government staffer has access to a LexisNexis-style service (which the FBI and most law firms do).

Posted by: mb at May 12, 2006 08:42 AM


"it's not like you call the FBI every time you get a hit."

So what are they doing then with the results of that massive analysis? Throw the data or "results", "findings" or however you call the things that come out at the end of the data pipe away or store them safely away? If the findings have no operational implications what's the idea of the whole project.

What is he trying to say? Probably it's: "We're calling the FBI only to check SOME (a SAMPLE) of our hits. Crime fiction has a better term for the word "hits", it's called "clues".

This means, at some late point in the process the "haystack strategy" has again to make place for the "needle strategy". Comparing them the "haystack strategy" is never the more cost-effective one.

It's single good pro-argument rests on the assumption that it produceds things (or "patterns" or whatever you call them), that you wouldn't have found with the "needle strategy".

The counter-argument is: let the strategies play on level ground: Give both approaches the same amount of money and manpower and you'll see that no hall of supercomputers, no software and no billions of data bits can beat a good team of researchers following the "needle strategy".

Posted by: Druid at May 12, 2006 04:04 AM


Actually it's not a waste of time at all. The NSA needs all that data to find the ELS codes that will help them predict terrorist incidents.

Posted by: Jon Swift at May 12, 2006 03:28 AM


All of the assurances that this program only targets terrorists is coming from people with a proven track record for lying. Why should we believe anything they say?

Posted by: Ronald Brown at May 12, 2006 02:11 AM


Able Danger (look it up) used this technique to detect Atta before 9/11. Too bad no one was smart enough to follow up that "useless" lead.

"The "Terrorists" learned long ago to communicate with each other, they do it the old fashion way, write in on a rock, turn rock over, U.S. will never find."

Then maybe the program is worth it if it slows down the terrorist communications to techniques that slow. Imagine what would happen if they knew no one was listening! Imagine how quickly they could mount operations!


"The FBI has already commented that many useless leads (false positives) were investigated, wasting precious manhours of time."

Then they are lazy bastards and should be fired. I assume they are already too busy tracking down Martha Stewart.

Posted by: Bruce at May 11, 2006 10:43 PM


What an utter waste of time and money. The terrorists arn't stupid and will use much more secure communications than a phone call, the operations that will be planned against the US, UK and elsewhere will be planned using encypted communication, the guys who are serious, will know exactly what they are doing to get around this sort of snooping. If this amount of money was diverted from Sigint to humint then I reckon that would be far more useful.

Of course I could be wrong and the terrorists are really as dumb as they look.

Posted by: David at May 11, 2006 10:38 PM


1) However slick the software is at crunching the data, the program is still a screen and screens throw up false positives. Then boots on the ground are employed to track plausible hits. The FBI has already commented that many useless leads (false positives) were investigated, wasting precious manhours of time.
2) How are those wrongly investigated protected from the taint of being investigated?
3) Why would anyone planning an attack use networks widely known to be surveilled?
4) The nostrum that 'those who have done no wrong have nothing to fear' needs to apply to all players. If the government has done no wrong with these spy programs, as it constantly claims, why the fierce objection to oversight?

Posted by: pt at May 11, 2006 10:29 PM


Humm... a rough linear calculation: Assuming a population of 300 million people and each phone call equivalent to a byte, each individual would have to make about ten thousand calls/day during a year, to reach the Petabyte scale... interesting.
I find it unreasonable to think that, the average individual, if led to think seriously about the "Terrorism" issue, wouldn't reach to the conclusion that, given the right circumstances, there's a potential terrorist inside each of us. It's much like a one-to-one fight (in a wider scale), because of this or that. It's our human nature led to extremes, after all. This is valid for governments/organizations, as well.
I'm European; here, we've had (& still have) "terrorism" on a daily basis, for years...
On what regards the [deep] roots of large scale terrorism I think that, firstly European and then both EU & North American foreign global policies - over the last century - has been disastrous, to say the least... and, it's getting worse. We're able to control our most basic impulses; but it requires an effort. How can one ask that from other through humiliation?

It's a nice Petabyte scheme, though.


Cheers!

Posted by: joset at May 11, 2006 08:44 PM


Is Big Brother OK?

Clearly, the direction that this is going is 'Big Brother', where the 'benevolent' government knows everything that there is to know about you ... but it's all for your sake .. for the sake of your safety -- unless you're "one of them". If you're one of them, then all of your rights are forfeit. If you're suspected of being one of them, then your rights are forfeit {because there's no real way of proving yourself innocent of an indefinite crime}.

and remember ... If you're even a friend of a suspect, then it's possible that you'll soon become a suspect, yourself.

Posted by: Stephen Samuel at May 11, 2006 07:49 PM


"You'll be shocked to hear that NIMD's website has been taken offline. But you can find Goggle caches about the program here, here, here, and here."

I find it interesting that we can still read about a program (directly from the source) that basically collected every phone call ever made because someone has a program that tries to cache every web page ever made.

While many owners of commercial sites believe this is a violation of copy write, the DMCA, yada yada yada, some people also believe Google is an affront to personal freedom. I don't agree with them, but it is interesting.

Posted by: Dwain Avance at May 11, 2006 05:48 PM


Oh, and I also remember the Echelon network being an underground rumor back in the 80's. Australia was a big partner with us, and so was the UK. Menwith Hill in the UK was supposed to be an original Echelon station.
:)

Posted by: DS at May 11, 2006 05:28 PM


I strongly disagree that this is a useless program. I think it is not only a smart idea, but I think that it demonstrates the perseverance that is present to track down potential terrorists and stop them before they act.
The cellular network is a perfect system to mine for patterns of this sort. You start with international calls, follow the connections to the States, look for patterns, then determine identities if patterns are found. Even though false identities can be used to obtain cellular provider accounts, surveillance can easily be initiated via GPRS location. Once identities are established you can cross-reference them with airline records and start developing intelligence.

To be honest, it doesn't matter to me if this program is active. What matters to me is whether there is enough oversight available to prevent abuse. If these operations are so secretive that courts cannot investigate related cases, there is no proper oversight. What would prevent an administration from 'inadvertadely' collecting information on an upcoming Presidential candidate?
Big problems in Little USA.

Posted by: DS at May 11, 2006 05:25 PM


It seems there are lots of assumptions here, as well as misreading.

According to the USA Today article, this program tracks "tens of millions of Americans," not "tens of millions of calls." In a linked Q&A, the reporter wrote "The NSA collected the records of billions of domestic calls," which fits with the quote in the story that the NSA's goal "'is to create a database of every call ever made' within the nation's borders."

This is a bigger haystack, indeed!

Posted by: Bob Jones at May 11, 2006 05:09 PM


I must say that this story was broken way back when about 10 or (a lot) more years ago, even before the NSA was revealed as an agency.

It was called Echelon, and anybody who called it Echelon was grouped into the UFO crazy nut group.

And if you think Echelon was a conspiracy theory that collected data from all around the world, I would ask you don't you think that's what the NSA does? With it's operation centers literally all around the World?

Let's not be naive about this stuff, it's been happeneing since the begining. The USA Today, isn't breaking news, it's making it.

Posted by: Harry Toor at May 11, 2006 04:50 PM


The posting software here apparently removes HTML, so the link to AT&T that I intended to provide in the last message was removed. Here is a description of the AT&T software: http://www.research.att.com/viewProject.cfm?prjID=101

Posted by: JerryP at May 11, 2006 04:48 PM


If social network analysis is the goal, dealing with massive amounts of data is not necessarily a bad thing. AT&T has already developed software "to do data mining on any massive graph built from transactional data" to identify "communities of interest." This has been used to identify fraud and repetitive debtors. Is it inconceivable that such software could not also be used to identify national security threats?

Personally, I have no more objection to the automated examination of my calling records by the NSA than I do by AT&T. I'll also point out that USA Today may not be doing the nation any favors by exposing the NSA's capabilities to those who might wish to damage this country.

Posted by: JerryP at May 11, 2006 04:45 PM


Actually, 60 Minutes broke the story back in February, of 2000!

See here: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/11/105237.shtml?s=ic

Posted by: Mike Burleson at May 11, 2006 03:34 PM


Good Morning Folks,

I would agree that this activity is a waste of time. First off it's no secret that the U.S. N.S.A. has ears and is tuned in. I would assume that that would be included in "Terrorism for Dummy's" on page one.

Any information gathered by the N.S.A. should be considered in one of two catagories. First it's what the "Terrorists" want us to hear, or think we hear or it is some want-a-be who is trying to get into the game.

The N.S.A. pulls the wool over the American publics eyes the way the spooks always have. We can't tell what we do because the bad guys will find out what we know so thus there is no way for public oversight and accountability of these activities. Of course the "Terrorists" are fully aware of the N.S.A's. presence and what they have tapped the pay phone of every 7/11 in the world, has any one gotten a call from bin Ladin lately?

The "Terrorists" learned long ago to communicate with each other, they do it the old fashion way, write in on a rock, turn rock over, U.S. will never find. As for the N.S.A. it's just another Federal Bureaucracy with terf, budget and jobs to protect.

Some of this money could be better spent on more "Rock Hounds" and fewer listeners.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at May 11, 2006 03:25 PM


A specific agenda like performing a check on executive power?

After all, that IS one of the jobs of the press in a free democracy.

Posted by: Sarge at May 11, 2006 02:52 PM


You're guilty of making an assumption, it seems.

According to the USA Today article, this tracks tens of millions not hundreds of millions of calls. This does indeed, in your parlance, indicate a "smaller haystack."

Perhaps this program is designed for more specificity, as was called for, and the writer at USA Today was trying to make it look worse to push a specific agenda?

Posted by: Bob Owens at May 11, 2006 02:39 PM


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