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Posted by: Pay Close Attention at September 21, 2007 09:01 PM

I really don't understand all the vicousness concerning this product. I saw the Future Weapons show with the former SEAL testing DS and it apparently did quite well. I guess what we need is to have some truely objective tests run by an equally objective tester. One on One, Dragon Skin vs. Current Military Armor. Multiple Rounds, Multiple Hits and Handgrenade Servivability. That's the only way we'll ever know the truth. Maybe MythBusters could be contacted or if not, I will volunteer my services for this test cycle.

Posted by: John at September 12, 2007 11:58 AM

I see that the cheer leaders for Dragon Skin have been quiet for some time now. Was the failed tests, the fraud investigations, the embarrassing testimony before congress, the NIJ revocation of certification, the Air Force placing Pinnacle on the denied parties list or the criminal investigation when they raided Pinnacle's offices that put a damper on their enthusiasm?

I do remember one Robocop talking about how his whole tactical team wears Dragon Skin. I wonder how his team mates feel now that some truth has been shed on the Dragon Skin myth?

Posted by: Dragon Slayer at August 26, 2007 08:27 PM

Very intelligent post my friend, I think you have some deep seeded issues that can only be resolved at a Psychologist office.

go to www.evolutionarmor.com and click on the
Dragon Skin Vs. IBA

BTW ~ We have named our new generation of flexible armor and will advertising officially in October, 2007 in Law & Order Magazine

Regards

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Posted by: WILLIAM is the douche at May 29, 2007 02:19 PM

This forum is dead, just like my sex life. Where are you Mr. Bain? Do you still wanna sex me?

Posted by: William at May 23, 2007 07:49 PM

To say that the media is concerned is laughable at best. They do nothing to help our soldiers morale. They haven't said anything positive since this war began. NBC is America's Al Jazeera affiliate to me. Dragonskin did not pass the most crutial of tests. Zero is the key number of penetrations and Dragonskin did not meet the requirement so for anyone to say the military is lying just check the facts at www.armytimes.com. If you read this and it offends you sorry, but dragonskin is inferrior to Interceptor. And to anyone who would wear it over Interceptor, you are asking for a quick exit from life. And you aren't fit for the ARMY anyway.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 09:10 AM

Remember my prediction about secret dealings with NBC and a 4 star general? Well now you know the rest of the story. Pinnacle and NBC orchastrated this ambush of the Army along with General Wayne A. Downing. It will be interesting to see the Army and USSOCOM reaction to this whore who would sell our soldiers out for money. I hope he enjoys spending his Pinnacle allowance, it won't last long after they are all in jail for fraud.

Posted by: Dragon Slayer at May 20, 2007 01:23 AM

Brad,you should go have a DNA test done, since me and your momma had a thing years ago. I hope you didn't turn out ugly and "stupid". By the way tell her I said hello, and if she ever gets rid of the loser to call me. Just tell her Willie Boy is here.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 01:09 AM

Well said William

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 19, 2007 11:24 PM

Well said William

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 19, 2007 11:23 PM

To whom it may concern,

I have never made a posting on this forum. I was shocked that someone would use my name from the Proven Tough? forum to post their views in my name on this forum. This was an imposter so if he offended anyone using my name I'm sorry. If you want the truth for the Army not accepting dragonskin check out www.armytimes.com, type in dragonskin on their search engine at the top of the site and you'll see why the vest is not up to par with the Interceptor. I stand by the ARMY and trust them not to sabbotage the lives of this country. To the imposter, get a life motherfucker don't try to steal mine you piece of bottom dwelling shit.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:14 PM

There is nothing secret about Dragonskin douchebag. It's all over for you William you have lost the battles and the war. It must suck to know that you were and still are wrong. Go fuck your mother bitch.

Posted by: Brad at May 19, 2007 01:17 PM

Hey Trey, I find it funny that everything about Dragon Skin is "Secret" but they claimed that the CIA tested and bought DS for their operatives. I am sure that they just revealed some confidential information about capabilities that is at least an OPSEC violation. I wonder how happy they are about that. Pinnacle is a bunch of money grubbers, that is the ONLY REASON they are doing all this $$$$$$$$$$. There are in fact several companies working on flexible armor, this research has been going on for years. Everytime you hear about things like liquid armor that is part of the government, university research, and industry efforts to perfect flexible armor. however they all have one common problem, the design requires overlapping joints which automatically make the armor HEAVIER by 20 to 40 percent. Liquid armor is a concept that does not require overlapping joints. So there are thousands of people working a real solution to the weight problem. No one has found it yet. Least of all Murray Neal the circus tent ring leader! He is marketing a myth. Using sensationalism, lies and deceit. This is a farce being perpertrated upon scared soldiers and their families by someone making a profit. The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff. In the last 10 years no one with any credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE, even the Israelis didn't look at it more than once. So now all of a sudden the ARMY has a conspiracy to deny Dragon Skin. Well I don't buy it, and neither does anyone with any experience in the ballistics field. Pinnacle is the laughing stock of the industry. They are taking advantage of ignorant and naive people and are selling the concept of better armor. Pinnacle has a long way to actually having an armor system that can meet military requirements. Murray Neal knows this and is trying to force the Army to pay to perfect his armor system, since they lack the experience and expertise to do so. He needs to hire the right staff and continue development, when and if they get it right, someone credible may take them seriously.

Posted by: William at May 19, 2007 10:30 AM

I agree with you all, the troops are worth the investment, but I am just explaining what I have seen in over twenty years of tendering, budgeting always factors in somewhere.

I can tell you this we will produce our level 4 FC vest for about 2800.00 dollars give or take in orders of 1000 units or more. 5K is rediculous.

Good Luck to you in IRAQ and I mean that.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 18, 2007 04:23 PM

I'd have to say that it is well worth the price if it lives up to it's word. Come on our soldiers lives are priceless and if we could give them a vest made of diamonds we would. But some things just aren't as practical as they should be.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 12:10 PM

I'd have to say that it is well worth the price if it lives up to it's word. Come on our soldiers lives are priceless and if we could give them a vest made of diamonds we would. But some things just aren't as practical as they should be.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 12:09 PM

Trey, you make a very viable arguement. The pricing is the only reason I can see that is hampering dragonskin. It's just not reasonable to pay that much when you can get probably two Interceptors for the same amount.

Posted by: Jacob Daniels at May 18, 2007 11:50 AM

Ya know Mr. Bain now you're starting to talk my language. All I want is someone to wake up and see that we do need better equipment and that there is other technology that may be better. Dragon Skin might not even be that armor but someone will surely make something similar that is tougher and more affordable. I can't persuade Pinnacle to do anything, I would hope that they would at least try to work with people on the pricing. If they won't then someone else will and basicly they will go bankrupt anyways. Where do they get off selling those vests for five grand? Hell just strap a used car to your body. I never was a fan of the pricing or publicity but if it helps then it can't be ignored. Hopefully someone will come up with the right thing.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 10:54 AM

Trey it is utter desparation on the part of Pinnacle Armor to get a relic from the past and
post him up on National TV to say that. Ok yea I would probably wear Dragon Skin too, but that isn't the point! The idea that only the best equipment for our ground troops is rediculous. I have seen it all over the world in every procurement, the end users want the best, the commanders have budgets and it never transcends to acquiring the best. Plus there are some drawbacks that you never hear about, things you don't know and Pinnacle isn't going tell you.

I can tell you that we do have something coming out this summer that will be an improvement and address these weaknesses. I also know of other entities that have versions as well that are performing quite well in development. If you really care about the troops and getting the best equipment available tell Pinnacle to drop the price 30%, and then pass the Article One testing; believe me they will still make plenty of money.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 18, 2007 10:19 AM

I can't understand how a high-ranking general claims, ON NATIONAL TV, that his staff might have bought him the dragon armor, and he might have worn it without knowing? Ah, can we say DUH! Does he want the public to think he's that stupid, and be impressed he made it that far in his career, or does he want the public to accept his lame excuse at face value, 'cause he's so far up the chain? Either way we're in trouble!!!!!

Posted by: The Bard at May 18, 2007 09:09 AM

Definately Trey, there is certainly something up when a General can't even talk without a shit eatin grin on his face. I'm guessing he will be retiring early as well.

Posted by: Samuel at May 18, 2007 08:55 AM

My question is why are high level officials including I beleive a 3 or 4 star general being allowed to wear it. Certainly if it's good enough for them it's good enough for the rest of the military. The remark of the Brigadier General I beleive was "even Generals make mistakes" with a grin from ear to ear. It's like they know it's better and don't want to cough up the cash.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 08:29 AM

Wha the fuck are you talking about ANONYMOUS? The designer of Interceptor said point blank if he was being sent to Iraq he would choose Dragonskin hands down.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 08:24 AM

hey guys, Karl Masters and James Zheng are civil servants, that means they are lowly government workers with a job to do. The competitive process of procurement is heavily documented as well as the testing process. I am sure that there are some good reasons why Dragon Skin never competed for military contracts before this controversy, and I think it is because there are some issues with armor that Pinnacle is not making public. I am suspicious because they have not been able to sell this armor to any government departments whether that is police, or the military. I do not trust the media, they have many reasons for stirring this up, RATINGS is one reason and they other is NBC will do anything that attacks the current administration. Anytime the media and the liberals become concerned about the troops it is purely for polictical reasons. I retired from the Army and we had all kinds of shortages and equipment problems when I was in the military. Look at how veterans have gotten treated all these years and where is the"media" attention? They do not care one iota about any of us, but if they can use one of our problems as a sledge hammer to progress "their" liberal agenda, they suddenly become a crusader on our behalf. Their "only" objective is to embarrass the government, they really don't give a shit about us. I don't know anything about either armor system, but I do know that equipment that can't pass testing will never be bought.

I want the best equipment for our troops too, but it must be safe. I have yet to see or hear about any vest failures. No body armor covers all of you, so you only have partial protection no matter who makes the armor or what design it is.

Posted by: Big D. at May 18, 2007 07:53 AM

I can't say I'm surprised that the man in charge of making the Interceptor body armor would publicly insist that a competing design is inferior.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 18, 2007 03:14 AM

Did any of you watch the NBC Nightly News Special on Dragonskin? Obviously not. Even the designer of the Interceptor admited that Dragonskin was better hands down. I'm so pissed that two men alone jeoprodized thousands of men that could already be wearing this armor. Not to mention how many died. God bless those soldiers. This story will certainly lead to advancements. I can say for myself that I was hoping the ARMY guys were right. It's too bad this kind of shit happens. Those men Karl Masters and James Zheng have to live with the penalties of greed, as I like to call them, for the rest of their lives.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 01:37 AM

Jacob,

Can't tell you why it's different because of the secrecy around the development.

Good advice to dot the i's and cross the t's, thanks for that, and yes I have. I have solid legal advice in this matter that are experts on this type of Intellectual Property.

At the end of the day the reason why Dragon Skin 7 years later hasn't made the big time in sales to the military is price. Whether thats bad or good isn't my call (i think it's bad), but
honestly I can buy a plate for 250.00 dollars that will take 10 shots of M-80 ball rounds at "real" NIJ velocities, and it weighs less than Dragon Skin. So price is always an issue, and thats where we have seen the market from the beginning. Mr. Neal saw it differently, he wants to make 3000.00 a unit on the full coverage level 4 vest. That's absurd and greedy, and that combined with an ego issue has been the main reason why Dragon Skin hasn't been adopted.

Trey, pack it in pal, do your job and I will do mine. I wouldn't think about trying to tell you how to train and run a unit, I have 12 NIJ certifications, 5 patents in my name and 4 pending, and have dealt successfully with over 500 governments and municipalities over the last 20 years. I have also consulted for 7 major armor companies. I know what I am talking about.

So save your opinions about my status as expert they mean nothing.

I am frankly shocked that you would take such a hostile attitude using so many colorful metaphors to insult me with such little information. I hope you are smarter and more thourough in representing the USA on the battle field. I would hate to think that we are being represented by people who don't do their homework and make idle baseless negative comments about other people you don't even know. It's sets a bad example, and you should be better than that.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 17, 2007 10:48 PM

Well thats great Trey glad to hear it. Keep up the good work then!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 17, 2007 10:29 PM

Allan it does seem like you are somewhat using the Dragonskin layout on your new vest. What have you changed that makes it better than Pinnacle's vest? Is there a pattent infringement with the vest? Just cross you're t's and dot you're i's because there needs to be something better and it shouldn't be chopped down in it's infantcy by a lawsuit or something. Ideas seem pretty good but is anyone purchasing or testing your stuff? I have to say that I'm a bit skeptical with the titanium stuff.

Posted by: Jacob Daniels at May 17, 2007 07:20 PM

I just watched the NBC story and yes it was about Dragonskin. They are doing their own independent testing and Dragonskin is hands down better than Interceptor according to their ballistics experts. They are doing a follow up on sunday and will show more results. Clearly the controversy has just begun and there will surely be more stories about it in the future. Sounds like bad news for all the haters of something that could save lives. By the way Mr Bain all my missions have a so called "valid efficacy" because they aren't surrounded in greed. I fullfill my missions with honor because I don't sell out on a whim either. I always make it home because other soldiers lives depend on me and I depend on them as well. So you can stop trying to be condascending and face the fact that you are not an expert. You may have had an idea a long time ago but now all you can do is claim that you have something better than Interceptor and Dragon skin eventhough nobody has heard of any of it.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 07:06 PM

I think you're an idiot Allan. I know more about armor and testing than you ever will. Just because I have an attitude based opinion doesn't mean I don't know my shit. I have a military career and I wear armor for my job so I think I'm more entitled to talk about armor than you ever will be. I'm a Staff Sgt. and I'm in charge of 18 year olds with more qualifications for armor based knowledge than you. You may be able to say what you said about Erica but if you knew either of us your opinions would not exist in that fashion. So to you Allan "Bain Dead" good luck in all your future endeavors cause you're gonna need it. And that is truly evident!

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 06:46 PM

Trey that's repugnant, I hope that your
mission(s) have a valid efficacy, and that you fulfill them with honor, and I hope that you make it home safe.

But you and your friend Eriduh don't know anything about armor or testing. It's pretty evident.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 17, 2007 03:38 PM

Once again
NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT
CHECK OUT WWW.SFTT.ORG FOR MORE DETAILS AND ANYTHING SOLDIER RELATED

Once again sorry patriot for the multiple postings. I'm just giddy because I know they always get results.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 12:51 PM

Soldiers For The Truth is a very respectable group
and they helped in this investigation.

This is great, I have worked with them before and was amazed to see the results that can come from their research. I hope they do more and more stories about this controversy because it looks like only soldiers can get it through their heads what is going on.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 12:39 PM

ATTENTION EVERYONE!!

I POSTED THIS IN THE OTHER FORUM, DON'T MISS NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT W/ BRIAN WILLIAMS, THIS IS UNDOUBTEDLY ABOUT DRAGON SKIN. THEY WILL BE DISCUSSING A MONTH LONG INVESTIGATION OF THIS ISSUE.

DON'T MISS IT!!!! THAT INCLUDES TWO PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR WHO HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF DRAGON SKIN AND PINNACLE.

FOR MORE INFO VISIT SFTT.ORG

Posted by: patriot at May 17, 2007 10:38 AM

Yeah like that isn't condascending Allan. I'm sure you'd like to see my dead body on a gore website but hey that's o.k. At least I'm a part of something with a good history.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 09:55 AM

William wake up Karl Masters even admits he works for Dragonskin's competition.

I agree FAT testing is the best way to go but, it was not completed therefore the results aren't fair.

The public dissing is a matter of opinion. You have to admit that it got the ball rolling as far as publicity goes.

We agree that PEO soldiers are unbiased but the problem is that Karl Masters and James Zheng were in charge of the testing. They were forced to retired early. I wonder why. It was due to the fact that they did not follow protocol when testing Dragonskin instead they chose to unprofessionaly test it and then bash it publicly.

The lack of responsibility is on their shoulders. And once again we are not interested in seeing a lesser capable armor for soldiers we just want the unbiased truth so that all soldiers have no worries about their armor's capabilities.

If anyone thinks we are doubtfull about Interceptor or anything soldiers are issued, think again. I have faith in Interceptor because I know it performs. I would also appreciate fair testing with anything that could help me and fellow soldiers.

Posted by: Trey and Erica at May 17, 2007 09:51 AM

Good luck to you in Iraq, hope you make it home.

Cheers

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 17, 2007 09:51 AM

Good in luck to you in Iraq, hope you make it home.

Cheers

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 17, 2007 09:50 AM

Erica and I are gonna keep ribbin' anyone who thinks he's a know it all. So keep it comin'.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 09:31 AM

Allan you can't even spell my name. You should use your sell-out money to go to college. Trey is a respectable man and to say he's on drugs is rediculous. He's a college graduate like myself and is being redeployed to Iraq with my brother later this summer. What armor have you made for sale to the market? None. Further it looks like you take our opinions seriously or you wouldn't respond to them in the first place. You expect us to buy your shit? Then learn proper english douche.

Posted by: Erica at May 17, 2007 09:27 AM

Hey, William I agree I'm not arguing that the FAT testing isn't the proper method I'm just wondering if the testing was totally completed. The evidence, although very little, does not support a complete First Article Test. I think it will be retested and the drama will be over but for now I think it looks promising but then again what we use now isn't bad. I just worry about the parts of Interceptor that aren't as well protected with hard armor. It would seem to me the solution would be to add more hard armor thus adding weight and lessening mobility. The Interceptor has saved more lives than Dragonskin and I love anything we are issued, not because I have to but because it's my job and I think all soldiers have faith in the IBA system. At least I know I do.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 09:15 AM

Nice try Allan, who do you think beleives your crap? Yes it is fun to see a self proclaimed inventor of Dragonskin (yeah right) get his panties in a wad. Let's get real here yeah I'm ribbin' ya, and you are probably a smart guy. What I'm getting at is if you do have something in the works then why do you even bother to waste your time on these rediculous forums. Yes I do drink, but I have never done drugs and I am a soldier of this country. So if you want to talk shit go ahead.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 09:03 AM

Trey in response to your sensible comment:
First rule of testing should be, that it be done by someone who does not work for the vest's competition. The Dragon Skin was tested by the Army, not by any competitors.

The second rule in my book is that the testing should be very intensive and take more than just a few days. Military armor testing is the most extensive, it is called a First Article Test, and is the most demanding test any armor faces outside of actual use.

The final rule should be, that you don't diss the armor publicly, for one it doesn't help your case since you work for it's competition, and second they gave Dragon Skin the publicity that it has today. The public dissing was in response to the direct attacks and mis-information about Interceptor and the Program Office responsible for fielding armor. No one at PEO Soldier works for the competition, they work for the government.

Finnaly the vest will be retested but the testing will be done in a proffesional matter in which it's testers will only care if the armor performs better or worse than what we already use. This is exactly how testing is performed. This is the mission of PEO Soldier. Their only concern is that the armor performs. If you cannot produce a product that meets all of the criteria, you fail. If the product does not perform after environmental conditioning, heat, cold,wet, etc. you flunk. If the armor fails ballistically, guess what? It is not something that the Army is looking anytime soon. Come back when it works properly.

Posted by: William at May 17, 2007 07:39 AM

I am the inventor of Dragon Skin, it's an undisputed fact,except by no bodies who have never made any armor for sale to the market like you guys.

Yourlanguage speaks volumes about your intelligence and maturity, it reminds me of the Geico commercials, You know, "it's so easy a caveman can do it" except the cavemen are smarter than Erika and Trey. That would make you both some sort of Monkey creature gibbering about things you can't understand.

Grow up, nobody takes your opinions seriously, Nobody! I am just trying to be cool and be honest with you so you can move on and maybe one day make something of yourselves; maybe go to school or something, and quit drinking and doing drugs. Clearly you both are on some kind of drug, and making fools of yourselves simultaneously.

Hmmm, where do all these idiots come from?

Good luck it sounds like your going to need it!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 16, 2007 11:26 PM

Who is Allan Bain, I'm sure he has a self servicing website but he sounds like a no credibility douchebag to me and my girl Erica.
And William what's the matter, can't face the trauma of a real soldier makin' points?

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 04:00 PM

Allan Bain

Dragonskin is not your idea.

You have no credibility.

Now run away and ask for murray to take you back.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:56 PM

Great concept Trey. Remember when me and my brother told you about these forums? I told you there were self proclaimed armor experts trying to make up crap. They ain't arround no more though. HaHaHaHa!!!!!

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:18 PM

First rule of testing should be, that it be done by someone who does not work for the vest's competition. The second rule in my book is that the testing should be very intensive and take more than just a few days. The final rule should be, that you don't diss the armor publicly, for one it doesn't help your case since you work for it's competition, and second they gave Dragon Skin the publicity that it has today. Finnaly the vest will be retested but the testing will be done in a proffesional matter in which it's testers will only care if the armor performs better or worse than what we already use.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 08:56 AM

Why hasn't Army or Marines or anyone tested Dragonskin again? It' almost like they just don't care. I can see how they have limited time with the war and all but they still need to examine everything thuroughly. Especially if it could save lives. I'm not looking for a response to this, these are just questions I wonder about here at home.

Posted by: Frank at May 16, 2007 01:10 AM

Allan Bain is a nobody.What are you "BainDead". Did you even graduate high school? Who are you? What is your agenda? Are you William's lover? You nobody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Erica at May 15, 2007 01:18 AM

Allan Bain is a nobody.What are you "BainDead". Did you even graduate high school? Who are you? What is your agenda? Are you William's lover? You fagget.

Posted by: Erica at May 15, 2007 01:17 AM

Allan Bain is a nobody.What are you "BainDead". Did you even graduate high school? Who are you? What is your agenda? Are you William's lover? You fagget.

Posted by: Erica at May 15, 2007 01:16 AM

Ok Mr. Newton, The American Lawyer who has no number or proof of membership with the State Bar, thanks, good luck to you!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 05:48 PM

I am an American Allan. I don't have to use the language you want. It's called freedom of speech, look into it. By the way when you spell you are it should be you're not "your", it's called proper english and has nothing to do with freedom of speech idiot. Did you fail third grade or something? You're hillarious "bar card number", did you look that up on yahoo? Where is your Dragonskin immitation at? "First crack at the market"? Who do you think would belieive that a company would let you take credit for their armor? You are a clear case of dillusional idiocy.
"Lawyerly" you cannot just ad ly to any word in the dictionary. If you could, I would have to state that you are grammarly challenged.

Posted by: E.Newton at May 14, 2007 03:10 PM

Erika, so what part of Pinnacle Armor do you respresent?

Your ramblings are impossible to decipher

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 02:40 PM

What kind of Lawyer, whats the name of your Law Office?

Do you represent Pinnacle Armor?

Please also kindly share your bar card number.

Some of the language you used doesn't strike me as too Lawyerly.

So forgive me, but your not believable.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 02:38 PM

What kind of Lawyer, whats the name of your Law Office?

Do you represent Pinnacle Armor?

Please also kindly share your bar card number.

Some of the language you used doesn't strike me as too Lawyerly.

So forgive me, but your not too believable.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 02:37 PM

Everybody here should calm down and watch their clips. Their stand alone armor takes 63 M16 hits in one plate.

http://www.defenstech.com/body_armor.html

Posted by: tim at May 14, 2007 12:46 PM

Allan I'm the attorney who advised you not to copy something that is pattented. That's who I am. Now that you know who I am, where is your copy of Dragonskin? It looks like no-one believes your lies Mr. Bain I just state facts not dillusional statements as you do. Still waiting on your "first crack at the market" even though we all know it is never gonna exist.

Posted by: E. Newton at May 14, 2007 11:15 AM

Allan I don't know or care who you are. I read the b.s. you post and you act like you know too much for everyone else to understand. Do you think the composition of the discs is different on the edges? Do you think there is a place where the discs are seperated and vulnerable? If you do, it's obvious to me you cannot be such an expert as you try to sound on this forum. Also you put yourself on this forum telling us to go to your website or whatever (in which I wouldn't). You say things that try to get you sympathy or something and just before that you discredit whatever it is you are talking about.

Posted by: Erica at May 14, 2007 10:54 AM

I don't want to work with Murray, but if he needed my help, and asked me, and it it didn't jeopardize my associations I would. Those set of circumstances are probably not going to happen.

I would like to ask Mr. Newton, Carlos, and Erika, who are you people. You know me in detail, know one knows who you are.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 09:09 AM

I see, well obviously it's a mute issue as I don't know who you are and the argument is fruitless because it leads no where positive.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 14, 2007 09:04 AM

the disks are as strong from the sides as they are on the face. What is the matter with these so called experts here? it is the same composition of matterial and there is more depth on the sides so therefore anyone could see that. Allan are you really an expert in armor? Or do you just sell ideas that you can't comprehend? I don't think anyone is gonna give you the first crack at the market with their armor. You are clearly dillusional and out of respect for Mr.Neal and Pinnacle you are a nobody in the field of flexible armor.

Posted by: Erica at May 14, 2007 06:30 AM

Allan if you are so sure of Dragonskin's faults then where is your armor or anyone's armor that is better? It's pretty odd that you bash Neal and then seem to beg for his support. Let's see your Richard Davis test, oh that's right you don't have or know of anyone that is making a vest. We're all still waiting for your "first crack at the market". Anyone can see that all you do is detract Dragonskin. What's the matter? A little seperation anxiety? Here's a clue if you want to bash something, bash it, but don't turn arround and act like you want to work with Murray because that is b.s.

Posted by: E.Newton at May 14, 2007 06:16 AM

My God, these tiles are shaped like discuses, and are not stronger on the edge, and they don't flex, they pivot off one another. When you stretch it around the body the tile pivots off the successor tile in order to make the bend around the body, hello.

The vests are tested flat always. Have Murray put on a vest and we'll shoot him at the angle with the APM2 at 3000 Ft./Sec, I mean if he is SO SURE have him pull a Richard David for us and let Karl Masters do the test. How about that?

They are not stronger on the edge, or that is what do you consider a fair edge to shoot at of a 2" diamter tile. THats the better question to ask. If you hit this imbricated pattern at 1/2 inch from the edge on the side of the armor panel that is the ending point of the tile layout you most certainly have an edge issue. Usually these tiles are stacked from left to right. THat would make it the right hand egde that is vulnerable. The only way to avoid this problem is to make a finish tile that has that edge covered by thicker ceramic. If thats what you mean by specially designed, well fine.

So What? That's common sense, anyone can do that or think of that.

Carlos please go back to Murray and tell him that he needs to redesign and team up with the guy who could have made this happen in half the time, because the way he's going the big contract with him making hundreds of millions of dollars is never gonna come, nobody likes his ego problems, and his uncanny ability to alienate would be customers. plus the Army is doing everything it can to make a good decision, there is no conspiracy.

Plus the greed issue, not good!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 13, 2007 11:59 PM

William, you should stop picking on these guys. They just go on what Pinnacle puts out in their marketing and videos. I on the other hand have the inside scoop. Would you like to know about Pinnacle's secret dealings with NBC and a 4 star General. Since Pinnacle claims not to be part of the Military/Industrial complex? Keep watching.

Posted by: Dragon Slayer at May 13, 2007 10:47 PM

Erica, are you capable of making an intelligent statement or are you just a stupid twit?

Posted by: William at May 13, 2007 05:28 PM

yeah William get a life or do some research. Where is your bofriend Allan? Oh he's in you right now? Oh that's not surprising.

Posted by: Erica at May 13, 2007 05:20 PM

William you are the fag. The discs slightly overlap one another you dumbass.

Posted by: Rob at May 13, 2007 05:13 PM

Ok Carlos, is this a flexible system or a rigid system? It can't be both. The only way that flat discs can go around a corner or a curve is for each disc to be at an angle to the one next to it. The last time I checked, Pinnacle only claimed to revolutionize body armor, they have not claimed to change physics, so unless that has occured it is impossible to do what you have stated.

Posted by: William at May 13, 2007 04:49 PM

Carlos, I do not understand your pre-occupation with making sexual remarks in a discussion about body armor. I know that you and Harnu are admittedly homosexual, but I don't think that has any bearing on our discussion. I also have not seen Mr. Bain say anything derrogatory about Murray Neal. It would be much more productive if you limit your comments to the subject at hand. It would also make you look more like an adult and a professional.

Posted by: William at May 13, 2007 04:41 PM

William shouldn't you be srvicing Allan right now? Well I guess that explains where you are!

Posted by: Carlos at May 13, 2007 02:11 PM

William I meant they don't flex because that would be stupid. The discs don't flex. The system is rigid and when bent there is no tangent from the next one prportionate to the radius of any bend. The system was designed to be able to take hits from all directions. Unlike Interceptor where there are weak points where there is no hard armor. Even the insurgents know that dumbass. Pinnacle has worked out the flaws of Mr. Bain's "brainchild" and have made the system flawless. The point I was trying to make earlier was that the discs are made to be hit at all angles and there is no point at which a round can hit the vest and not hit a disc. As you probably already know due to Karl Masters amazement that he could not make the system fail.

Posted by: Carlos at May 13, 2007 01:22 PM

Carlos, you point out that the disks do not flex, this is precisely my point. The disks themselves are hard and cannot flex, so when you bend the body armor carrier each disk is at a tangent from the next one proportionate to the radius of the bend. It would take another layer of tile to solve this problem, and add more weight.

Posted by: William at May 13, 2007 12:35 PM

You have a few good points but mostly all yall do is backtrack. Pinnacle's Dragonskin vests do not tend to open a little bit even when stretched around a body. The angle (theory) doesn't hold weight either. The discs are specially designed to take impacts from all concievable angles. The truth is the edges of the discs are actually stronger than a frontal hit because the transfer of energy is more dispersed. Lets get this right the disks themselves do not flex. There is no point on their vests that are less bullet proof even if you bent it as much as possible.

Posted by: Carlos at May 13, 2007 11:34 AM

Go here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor

and click on the discussions tab at the top

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 13, 2007 12:53 AM

Carlos, there several methods to defeat projectiles,the problem with Pinnacle is they gloss over or deny the obvious and just shout real loud that all other body armor sucks. Well, I beg to differ in that regard, since 99.999999999 percent ofthe rest of the world that uses body armor has not adopted Dragon Skin and they have had the last 10+ years to do so. Platelet armor has been done many times in the past. The Soviet Union issued three different variants of platelet armor to their soldiers during the Afghanistan occupation in the 80's. We (US Army Air Corps) issued platelet armor to air crews to protect them from flak. Every armor design has trade offs and Dragon Skin is no different. Platelet armors have greatly increased weight, and costs, compared to current triple curved body armor plates. They also have issues with angle shots when the armor curves around your body. Murray Neal will tell you that the rest of the industry is a bunch of idiots, well when he can present his opinion in a coherent, and scientific manner then he may get someone to listen. He is the laughing stock of the armor industry, not the leader, or as he likes to say on their website, "noted inventor and author in the ballistics field", I am still waiting for the booklist that lists his published works and books so I can go read them.

Posted by: William at May 12, 2007 11:06 PM

Hold on Carlos,

I also said that the newer versions of the interceptor are good units as well.

I also said that Dragon Skin is way too expensive; the margins on this type of armor are well known to our company and the various vendors and the entities that implement the manufacturing processes necessary to manufacture the item. Mr. Neal was trying to make huge dollars, and this has screwed Pinnacle out of a sole source market because of greed. He is a good 1000 - 2000 dollars higher than where he should be.

When Pinnacle armor addreses this issue then the door will open for serious consideration of changing slowly over time. The Army is aware of newer generations of flexible armor coming in for testing, so even if Pinnacle does lower the price, the window of opportunity is closing for our friend to reap the benefits of owning the current patents. These newer designs will create a whole new time line for evaluation. Mr. Neal should lose his ego and get on board with us, it would extend his time line dramatically. I am not talking about a selling out either. I am more than willing to work with Mr. Neal to help the situation, but he's has to be willing to work with us, and that's where the problem lies, greed and ego. I am willing to work with anyone who is serious as long as it doesn't compromise my comitments or secrecy agreements.

It would definitely go faster with us on board.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 12, 2007 12:00 PM

William are you denieing that Dragonskin has saved lives? Allan Bain seems to be on our side here buddy. He and everyone else knows that plate armor will be extinct soon especially an armor plate that clearly states FRAGILE on the face of them. You are the only one who does not accept the truth.

Posted by: Carlos at May 12, 2007 11:32 AM

I tried to tell them that platelet armor is not new. but the cheerleaders do not seem to understand the difference between marketing themes and reality. Mass efficiency is the measurement of an armor system, not a video. Pinnacle has taken the "joe six-pack" approach to marketing. In other words, "I saw it on TV, so it must be true". They even admitted that the hand grenade stunt was done for "entertainment" value! So much for truth in advertising. It is time for the FTC to do their job. Now we have the public and soldiers believing all this crap about Dragon Tales.

Posted by: William at May 12, 2007 11:02 AM

Hi Allan, I agree with you on the problems of actually using the armor. Testing the armor flat the way that the NIJ does so they can measure blunt trauma does not reveal the weakness of Dragon Skin in its' current configuration. By the way, the other body armor companies have been trying to get the NIJ to add testing the armor while simulating it being "worn" for years. So far the NIJ has not agreed to this type of test. This definitely works to Pinnacles advantage. However, I don't think the Army will be easily fooled. You should read my posts on the other thread. They flat refused to answer my guestions about dragon skin, Pinnacle and their marketing tactics. I tried to explain that by design, dragon skin is 33% heavier than conventional armor. They went ballistic over that truth. Don't let these mental midgets intimidate you. William

Posted by: William at May 12, 2007 07:47 AM

Allan Bain, What are you hiding from. You say your armor is going to be tested. What armor?

Posted by: research at May 12, 2007 02:57 AM

Well whatever, I don't care William, They can say what they want, but when we go to test, the results will speak volumes, just like Pinnacle Armor's failures. I really hope they have worked out the wrinkles. The one thing that concerns me about the discus shape tile in Dragon Skin are the angle shots. I realize that the newer NIJ test for scalar type armor addresses this, but it's on a flat surface, the tiles tend to open a bit on the body. So far the testing I have seen on their demo's have been with the AK-47 mild steel core. That's not really that impressive. I would like to see Mr. Neal to put his armor on and sinch it down properly like a soldier and have a APM2 fired at a 60 degree angle aimed at the weakest point. The exact armor that is certified, and have Karl Masters perform the test. If it passed I would be really impressed!!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 11, 2007 10:17 PM

Allan, you can believe me that they pulled this the impostor posting on the other thread too. They have no problem using confusion and lies. There is no way to limit them using what ever name on here they want to use. They will put words in your mouth too, to try and discredit anything you say.

Posted by: William at May 11, 2007 07:31 PM

I don't think so Allan Bain I've seen all I want of your crap. Liar!!!!!!! I'm sure your info is lies you douchebag.

Posted by: William at May 11, 2007 04:26 PM

I don't think so Allan Bain I've seen all I want of your crap. Liar!!!!!!!

Posted by: William at May 11, 2007 04:24 PM

William please email me at my website and tell me of your concerns, thank you, I will discuss what you want there, I am sure your information is wrong

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 11, 2007 12:37 PM

Hey I don't think Allan is as forthcoming with info as he should be. Allan, I did some research on you and I found out that you plan to help make a vest that is very similar to Dragonskin. What are you thinking? Are you trying to be sued? I thought that you were coming up or new of a company that was coming up with something new!!?? Instead you make a fool of me with your'e non existant collaborations.

Posted by: William at May 11, 2007 12:15 PM

Dear Soldier FtT,

I don't owe you a explaination or even a hint of what our designs are about. What I will tell you is that there are many different ways of making flexible rifle resistant armor.

Remember one thing, Patent Law differentiates what is a copy by exact claims and whether they are dependant or independant. As I have stated our new tile is NOT a discus and DOES NOT infringe on the main claim by which all the other dependant claims rely on with respect to the Dragon Skin patents.

Copy huh, Mr. Neal filed another patent very similar to the one I filed in 1994 after I sold to him. The one I filed went abandoned, but we sold the product with this design and licensed the imbricated pattern using discs, Hexagons, squares ect.. design(scalar armor) well before Mr. Neal ever thought about armor. That makes the scalar design public domain, anyone can do that. The discus shaped tile is the strength of the Dragon Skin Patent.

You'll see our design when it's ready, and all I see here are a few people who are Pinnacle Armor sales reps or advocates trying to make cogent statements without knowing anything about the evidence, which makes them baseless conjecture. Copy?, Mr. Neal is the one who has spent his ownership of the patent rights and my 5 year non compete he purchased as time to copy and convince everyone that he invented something.

There isn't one patent that he owns in the armor channel of commerce where he supplied an original idea that hadn't already been discussed between the parties or that was already solidified by R&D efforts prior to Mr. Neal's arrival at Armor Technology Corp. in late 1997 to propose helping the project financially.

I have the evidence, and the product is coming, and there is very little anyone can do except one thing, Save about 1000 - 2000 dollars per vest. Mr. Neal has used this exclusivity to try and profit BIG TIME. Certainly he should make some money, but I know the margins on these units and it's obscene how much he has gouged good people for protection. And he received money from the government to develop a vest that was mostly developed anyway. A lot of money! So get off the Pinnacle Armor bandwagon, it's not that great of a ride.

IF you had any brains at all you would invest in our newly forming armor company, because that project is going to make money and give good value and protection to the people we need to protect.

Any other comments should be directed to my web site at info@evolutionarmor.com this is my last post here on this subject, talk about it all you want.

Cheers

Al

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 11, 2007 12:07 PM

Dear Soldier FtT,

I don't owe you a explaination or even a hint of what our designs are about. What I will tell you is that there are many different ways of making flexible rifle resistant armor.

Remember one thing, Patent Law differentiates what is a copy by exact claims and whether they are dependant or independant. As I have stated our new tile is NOT a discus and DOES NOT infringe on the main claim by which all the other dependant claims rely on with respect to the Dragon Skin patents.

Copy huh, Mr. Neal filed another patent very similar to the one I filed in 1994 after I sold to him. The one I filed went abandoned, but we sold the product with this design and licensed the imbricated pattern using discs, Hexagons, squares ect.. design(scalar armor) well before Mr. Neal ever thought about armor. That makes the scalar design public domain, anyone can do that. The discus shaped tile is the strength of the Dragon Skin Patent.

You'll see our design when it's ready, and all I see here are a few people who are Pinnacle Armor sales reps or advocates trying to make cogent statements without knowing anything about the evidence, which makes them baseless conjecture. Copy?, Mr. Neal is the one who has spent his ownership of the patent rights and my 5 year non compete he purchased as time to copy and convince everyone that he invented something.

There isn't one patent that he owns in the armor channel of commerce where he supplied an original idea that hadn't already been discussed between the parties or that was already solidified by R&D efforts prior to Mr. Neal's arrival at Armor Technology Corp. in late 1997 to propose helping the project financially.

I have the evidence, and the product is coming, and there is very little anyone can do except one thing, Save about 1000 - 2000 dollars per vest. Mr. Neal has used this exclusivity to try and profit BIG TIME. Certainly he should make some money, but I know the margins on these units and it's obscene how much he has gouged good people for protection.

Any other comments should be directed to my web site at info@evolutionarmor.com this is my last post here on this subject, talk about it all you want.

Cheers

Al

And he received money from the government to develop a vest that was mostly developed anyway.
A lot of money!

So get off the Pinnacle Armor bandwagon, it's not that great of a ride.

IF you had any brains at all you would invest in our newly forming armor company, because that project is going to make money and give good value and protection to the people we need to protect.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 11, 2007 12:04 PM

It looks like "no bains" is running away from the truth too. William sure knows who to align himself with, Have you taken the gloves off William "oh no I hope you aren't threatening me" what are you gonna do? Ask the same questions over and over? Yeah that's what I thought spineless puss.

Posted by: Carlos at May 11, 2007 12:01 PM

Mr.Bain or "no bains" as I like to call him, is rediculous. Are you here to take credit for Dragonskin some more? We know, we know, you came up with it and now you think you can highjack the designs right? You are a douche just like William.
What's the matter? You can't answer real questions?

Posted by: Carlos at May 11, 2007 11:55 AM

Damn Newton, looks like the sell-out sold out. He can't face the facts just like william. Mr. Bain do you really think you are going to try and copy Pinnacle? What's the matter you can't accept it's working without you? What is your reason for posting on this forum Allan Bain? Because it's unclear what your points are.

Posted by: Soldiers FtT at May 11, 2007 10:07 AM

Your welcome Mr. Bain. What are you "Bain dead"? LOL= William's faggety calling card.

Posted by: E. Newton at May 11, 2007 08:30 AM

Yes of course your right William. THanks Mr. Newton for your opinion!

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 11:10 PM

Hi Allan, I see that the dragon skin zombies have found this thread. LOL, they are a pitiful bunch. Be kind to them, since they are very sensitive. Reality really scares them, and when you talk about it they start having fits, and frothing at the mouth.

Posted by: William at May 10, 2007 09:52 PM

If you coul read as well as you sell off your patents you'd get a lot more accomplished. Still waiting on your "first crack at the market" Mr.Bain.

Posted by: E. Newton at May 10, 2007 05:07 PM

Hey Allan I said you (think) you own it. You act like it's still your right to make a vest or encourage people to make a vest that would copy Dragonskin. I'd like to see your so called "first crack at the market". I'm not a betting man but I'd be willing to put down money that you don't have or know of a company that would/could make a flexible system that doesn't resemble Dragonskin.

Posted by: E. Newton at May 10, 2007 04:38 PM

Dear Mr. Attorney,

When did I say I still owned the Dragon Skin Patents? Uhm NEVER!

Your an attorney?

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 03:14 PM

Dear Mr. Bain,

I think it's crazy for you to think that you own an idea that you sold. I'm an attorney here in Dallas and your idea is gone unless you can buy it back (good luck on that). I'm not sure who you are working with this time but I would recommend that you don't use the scale type design because it's going to be a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Hope your future endeavors are better planned for the sake of our troops.

Posted by: E Newton at May 10, 2007 02:05 PM

Dear God the times that you guys post is rediculous. Do you have day jobs? I wish that I could stay up till one in the morning posting on forums but I guess we're not all as fortunate.LOL!!!!

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2007 01:38 PM

Mr. Bain if you had not sold out to Mr.Neal maybe something would be available by now to us soldiers. I guess that money is king but if you were so sure of the progress you were making you could have made much more. What I'm trying to get at is the fact that Pinnacle has not taken your design, you sold it to them. It is a shame that they haven't gotten a formula that works to our standards but that's the name of the game when new people step into an idea that isn't their brainchild.

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2007 01:32 PM

I can't wait for a new vest for soldiers. I am happy with the Interceptor and know that it works well. I was wondering if anyone knows when there will be something far better that doesn't come with the scrutiny of Dragonskin. In my opinion they reversed the order of operations. I think that Pinnacl Armor should have gotten their vests proven before they went on all these military shows. The titanium discs sound very promising especially if they are an improvement over Dragonskins discs.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 10, 2007 01:22 PM

How do I know that our systems and that of others would not be infringing on the current art, Dragon Skin? Is that the question?

A question best left to attorneys and the legal process that governs patent law. However, having the Historical time line documented and understanding what dependant and independant claims are help in making making that decision.

You can rest comfortably that we have spent a great deal of time and money to be reasonably certain of our non-obvious and novel nature of the newest designs.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 09:37 AM

Mr Bain,
Thank you again for responding. Sorry for the multitude of questions.
I don't mean to press you, but why did you sell your rights and assets? was it simply the money?
Secondly patents are good for 20 years, would you or others not be infringing on the intellectual rights of the patent holder if similar technology to this came on the market.
Or was there an exception because of a special legal agreement that was made between yourself and Mr. Neal?
Lastly, is Evolution Armor privately owned by you or owned and somehow connected to larger companies?

thanks again

Posted by: research at May 10, 2007 01:10 AM

Dear Sir,

We had formed a joint venture partnership in late 1997, and he was the sales wing operating under USA Armoring. I prepared all the first prototypes and testing and manufactured the earliest version through 2000. Mr. Neal acted as a sales wing and carried out instructions on what I wanted completed by the CNC metal shop and the composites company. I will admit that Murray has done some good work in working out the wrinkles from where he took over, but commmon, 7 years. I could tell you stories about the titanium encasement issue.

Do I believe that this is the future, it says so on my web site, and I will reiterate that again. sooner or later the uniform thickness planular hard armor plates will be eliminated. We have filed two patents on new version of the flexible concept.

We know of another party that has another style of flexible armor that is in development, and is working pretty well. Pretty novel stuff to, I wish I had thought of it, but it's ok because they are friends of mine. I will definetly have a first crack at the market when it's ready.

This product concept is going to open up dramatically over the next few years.

Hey thanks for the questions.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 12:57 AM

Thank you Mr. Bain. One thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is how did Mr. Neal buy you out if you stated in your website he worked for you as a salesman? Maybe I have mis-understood something?

It seems apparent to me the Dragon Skin had its problems early on, but on the other hand it seems that Pinnacle has been up-front and honest about addressing these issues. It appears that all these wrinkles have been worked out.
At this point in time, in light of Dragon Skin's media exposure on "futureweapons" and other shows; it seems inevitable that Dragon Skin will eventually become more and more of a hot topic and may eventually replace the interceptor body armor.
Do you agree with this statement?

thank you for responding

Posted by: research at May 10, 2007 12:44 AM

Hi, I finished my commentary and then went back to view it and saw your questions. Does that suffice for now as answers to your questions?

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 12:35 AM

Hi William,

Oh thats ok, the evidence is supported in ALL the prior art listed in the patents, and I have a complete time line of events dating back to the early 1990's. Murray bought me out, he owns Dragon Skin, but his involvement and what he's saying about it is pretty much false. It's tough road for him, he's told so many people his fabrication about how influential he was in bringing Dragon Skin to life and how he was the brain behind it, now he would lose incredible face to back track on that, he can't afford to do that. I agree his money was nice it made things easy and fast. However, the actual listing of him as a co-inventor was incorrect, and had I understood patent law the way I do now I wouldn't have allowed it.

If you look at his later patent filings where he claimed a titanium encasement the X-2 was referenced as promotional material and the date, 1996.

(The titanium encasement was actually the only collaberation that took place that could constitute Murray as a co-inventor, but it also involved another individual that is highly respected, more on that later, it's kind of a funny story)

I have a copy of the X-2 advertisement that Armor Technology Corp. ran in Law and Order Magazine titled "We hope you miss the point" It was an advertisement we ran after we successfully specified our A.P. Pistol Resistant vest for the Royal Hong Kong police. We adapted it for knives as well. The record shows clearly by written documentation and known expert references that the pursuit of flexible rifle armor came before Murray approached our company.

We actaully solicted International Armor, U.S. Armor,and Safariland to take on the project of adapting it for rifles, and we knew exactly how to do it well before Murray ever showed up. We actaully licensed a company to make a version of the X-2 that was sold to the market and then Murray patented that as well after I sold my assets to him, a public domain item, a reinvention of our first patent filing back in 1994, which is also a public document. Where was Murray? (installing securtity windows)

I appreciated his money and his ability to take and carry out directions. He probably solidified this ability as a Navy Seaman. I also appreciated the fact that he wasn't as closed minded as the other companies to the concept.

Murray is a hard worker and I wish him the best, there is plently of room for other manufacturers of flexible rifle armor, but lets get it right, he didn't invent Dragon Skin.

He bought it from me though, and he has saved lives with it, and I of course have great respect for that.

Allan D. Bain

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 10, 2007 12:30 AM

Mr. Bain,
It is a pleasure to have you on here. I have been doing some research on Dragon Skin as well as its background and origin. I was wondering if you would be willing to answer a few questions.
1.) Are you able to elaborate on the conditions and details of the non-compete contract you had, if so please do so.
2.) You sold the intellectual rights to Pinnacle or Mr. Neal? Why did you sell these rights if indeed you are the original inventor.
3.) I did look up the patents on the United States Patent website and noticed you and Mr. Neal are the inventors on a couple of patents relating to flexible body armor. Can you elaborate on the history and conditions of these patents?
4.) Can you elaborate on your relationship and experiences with Mr. Neal both now and in the past? If so please do so.

Thank you

Posted by: research at May 10, 2007 12:28 AM

Hi Allan, I look forward to seeing how well the new disks perform. By the way, get ready for the onslaught from the retarded cheerleaders from Pinnacle assaulting your integrity. I think they found this thread. With this crowd if brains were dynamite they wouldn't have enough to blow their nose. LOL

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 10:40 PM

wtf? evolutionarmor looks like some cheap website put together by a 5 year old like William to help him protectr the armys contracts lol. the scale picture looks like a freakin tin badge attatched to a clothespin. that doesn't look like a company web site at all. and since you say that its been in existance for almost a decade or so,why the hell was the website created only recently? hmm....

Posted by: e at May 9, 2007 08:51 PM

Hey Allan, the Pinnacle boys are saying you didn't invent dragon skin on the other thread, LOL, I guess they have been drinking the koolaid again.

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 06:43 PM

Hi William and thank you,

Well the company that we have making the Ti Carbide has been slow due to their secrecy concerns and technical limitation in mold making of complicated parts.

However we do anticipate some quantitative testing soon. We are also teaming up with a new Boron Carbide manufacturer. We intend to produce a very durable model with superior V-50's, and a very light weight version. This new Boron Carbide has increased fracture toughness compared to what's being used by the military currently.

We are really hoping by this summer to have an initial model offered to the market place. Chances are however we will only be making the component tile, and just sell to our numerous licensees in the market.

One of the features we have incoporated into our design is a true high temperature adhesive made by 3M; their adhesives for niche applications are second to none. This adhesive maintains peel strength from -20 up to 250 F degree range, and works great for both high and low energy surfaces.

Allan D. Bain

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at May 8, 2007 06:49 AM

Hi Allen, Finally a professional on the scene. It is very sad what Murray has done with your technology. How is your titanium carbide platelets doing? I think Pinnacle is using Silicon Carbide. They sure picked the wrong person to start a squabble with, have seen the other thread yet? They have said some nasty things about the army, and these boobs don't have a clue about manufacturing and testing. I watched their video on how their vest is made, they were using normal kevlar, and they expect adhesives to stick to unscoured woven kevlar? LOL I guess no one told them that the weavers use palm oil to lubricate the fiber so it won't wear out their weaving machines. Guess what won't stick to oil?

Posted by: William at May 7, 2007 09:15 PM

Dear William,

Pinnacle has been trying to team up, but Mr. Neal has alientated himself from many would be freinds in the field in so many ways, it's making my job easier to get our newest flexible armor into the right hands.

Allan

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at May 6, 2007 02:27 PM

Dear Student,

If you wish to know more about Dragon Skin for your school project I can be of help. Go to www.evolutionarmor.com and go to the contact page. You may email me or call me at your convenience.

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at May 6, 2007 02:24 PM

There are plenty of armor companies that would like to get some of the governments business, and if Dragon Skin was so good, one of the armor companies would have tried to team up with Pinnacle or buy them out. This has not occurred, so after 12 years of being in business with so called "new" technology why hasn't somebody done something with it? Why haven't the Iraelis been using this technology, they have been at war a lot longer than we have. I don't believe the hype that Pinnacle is putting out about unfair testing. It would take a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of people at different agencies to do what Pinnacle claims.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 08:42 PM

Body armor is an essential part of war in the 20 century, and with politics and money to be made, there is going to be ups and downs, in any military system, and who wants what, and who gets what, men don't care when there is money to be made, and I do agree the military needs a company that can mass produce a product like body armor, when the military has a product that works, somewhat? and the new body armor is better yes, but the company lack political backing and production might. But to say its not good and only will let insurgents use the body armor is treason to say the least, and for the sake of money, to down a body vest that may save a life. In the political and financial world of money and Industry one paying one off and buying one out or to be bias of a product is common in the world today. " It is up to the common soldier or person and family to protect themself and judge what needs to be done to protect thier life in the line of duty and justice and the right for freedom, and the right to bear arms on United State soil or foreign soil and dam with the politics.Its your life"

Posted by: Vince at April 22, 2007 11:55 AM

In case anyone missed this vid from an earlier post. Watch the vid, then make your comments. Pinnacle had never tested in this fashion, and it still perfomed flawlessly. Give the boots on the ground the best we can, and STOP PLAYING POLITICS!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7598767169430383501&hl=en

Posted by: CrazyK at April 21, 2007 08:19 AM

I want to see Mr. Masters put his money where his mouth is, "I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents," he says, ugh do you think he'd be willing to put on a set of IBA and let me shoot a .308 round at?

Posted by: CT at April 19, 2007 06:26 PM

hi I'm doing a project for school, thats about dragon skin and you need to show what its made of.

Posted by: andy Berube at April 10, 2007 03:11 PM

I have done a fair amount of checking on this. The Program Manager mentioned is the guy in charge of overseeing the Interceptor and ESAPI program for PEO Soldier Systems. He is employed by the U.S. Government, not the manufacturer of the armor. They also have a quality control program to ensure that the armor delivered meets the contract specifications and they conduct ballistic tests everyday. The Marine Corps was the service that accepted substandard Interceptor soft vests, not the Army. I believe some heads rolled over this in the Marine Corps and the Colonel who actually signed the waiver was prosecuted. If you look at the FedBiz Ops webpage, they Army regularly posts "sources sought" for emerging requirements and invites industry to submit information and participate. So it is not impossible to get your technology seen. The Army regularly awards development contracts for worthy technologies. There is also an organization called DARPA, you should look that up and see all the money the spend on small companies with good technology potential. So the argument goes that the Army is trying to suppress technology. Guys platelet armor technology is nothing new. When I was on active duty, the intell community found out that the Soviets had titanium disc body armor and it looked just like Dragon Skin, and it was being used during the Soviet Afghanistan occupation, some of it was recovered and brought back here for testing, it did not perform very well against US ammunition types so our fears were allied that they had a technology that would cause us problems. During WWII the Army Air Corps had platelet armor for the bomber air crews to help protect them from the anti-aircraft flak. Flexible hard armor has been around for 50 years. It is easy to forget that the Army has a repository of information going back 200 years. Just because something is new to you does not make it new. I wore kevlar and steel plates, and then various types of ceramic plate armor, including B4C (boron carbide) which is still the lightest ceramic during my career. We had the funding long before the big Army did. The Interceptor program was an upgrade of the old PASGT frag vest. PEO Soldier Systems developed the SAPI to give us rifle protection based upon the engagement distances expected on the battlefield. Well the battlefield changed quickly and they now issue the ESAPI which provides AP protection and muzzle blast distances. Proper testing and development of armor systems is not something done willy nilly. The barrage of tests conducted to ensure that armor will perform on the battlefield is extensive and they try to make it soldier proof. I saw marines using their ceramic plates to hammer tent stakes, since they knew they would get in trouble if they got caught using their Kevlar helmets. You also have to realize that for the Army to field a piece of equipment, the manufacturer has to be able to produce in the quantities that the Army requires. I know a small company that makes very high quality equipment, they cannot produce 1 million sets in a year, even if the Army gave them a contract, it would take them several years of ramp up time to be able to deliver. Do you want to wait that long to get your equipment? My understanding from the few people I have met that actually bought Dragon Skin, was it took several weeks to get their armor. I know one agency that put in an order for 200 sets and they got their armor in small quantities like 3 to 6 sets at a time, and it took months get it all. There is plenty of information available if you want to look it up. But bashing people without being informed makes one look ignorant.

Posted by: William at April 3, 2007 09:30 PM

Just think what a bodyarmour contract is worth. They will discredit the Dragon Skin in order to save themselves. I'm sure there would be a lot of lost kickbacks if they were to switch providers. This will require a public outcry, independent testing and media exposure.

Posted by: zmiller at April 2, 2007 08:01 AM

I saw this armor tested on the military channel. It stopped 5.56x45mm, 9mm, and 7.62mmR (AK-47 ammo) rounds just fine. Furthermore, the vest, placed on a dummy, stopped a frag grenade at point blank range. The exterior was history, but the interior was UNSCATHED!

Posted by: Dave at March 22, 2007 09:41 AM

Is it just me... or is corporate warfare screwing over the safety of our soldiers?

My god, First they don't want the M8, and the ammo change to 6.8 SPC... meh... now its long lasting, lightweight, flexible body armor in comparison for one-use, heavy, ceramic plates.

Hey If that plate stops a larger round once, well Im safe for only a few more seconds as my armor has been shattered, If I get into a firefight with Dragon Skin on, would certainly be able to take a beating, and probably only worry about bruising.

Posted by: Kyle Toney at March 21, 2007 11:18 AM

As soon as he said I am the product manager for the the other body armor I didn't read the rest of his comments...

Posted by: Kyle at March 20, 2007 09:44 PM

Nate, you are freaking idiot. The Dragonskin STOPPED all the rounds....

Posted by: Steve at March 17, 2007 11:01 PM

Hey i was the Discovery Channel future weapons and i saw Mack the host shoot the dragon armor point black with all this guns armor piercing rounds and everything and on of them went though so thats proof enough for me.

Posted by: nate at February 28, 2007 12:17 PM

I work as a Defense Contractor and frequently deploy to Afghanistan and Iraq. I've worn both the Interceptor and Dragon Skin SOV-2000. The SOV-2000 is, by far, the better of the two.

Having seen the Defense procurement process first-hand, I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, is covering their ass.

"As a soldier your body is a weapon of the military, it belongs to them, not to you. This is not a new concept" Philip

Philip, you're a dumbass. We used to call that idea "slavery".

Posted by: Mr. Smith at February 23, 2007 05:39 PM

"My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor..."

Surprise!! Surprise!!

He is the Product Manager for the Vest that would be replaced if Dragon Skin tested well...and he says Dragon Skin sucks...

NONE of the guys making decisions for the soldiers in the field are IN THE FIELD!

What the hell is wrong with our country? Have your competitor evaluate & report to see if they should be replaced.

I wish me & my buddies could be the judge in our own trials...it has become the American way!

Posted by: WOWZA! at February 11, 2007 02:28 AM

I cannot belive that the intrests of moneymakeing corporations and their pawns are put before our soldiers safety. This is outrageous!!!

Posted by: Evil MoFu at February 6, 2007 11:34 PM

I tried opening up http://www.pinnaclearmor.com but the sight is down, weird. I did find a really good explanation of whats going on at answers.com http://www.answers.com/topic/dragon-skin-body-armor

Although its not used for troops, it appears to be fine for these guys:

"Dragon Skin" is a kind of body armor made by Pinnacle Armor and worn by personnel expected to be in high-threat situations. Individual users include the U.S. Secret Service Presidential Protection detail, CIA, NSA, United States Department of Energy officials in Iraq, some journalists and contractors in Iraq, U.S. Air Force, some Special Ops forces, some police departments and SWAT teams, and nine U.S. Generals in the field (as of Jan 2006).

Its ok for Generals, but not for the grunts. I guess this war on terror is expensive

Posted by: viktor at February 4, 2007 10:26 AM

I suppose the angle thing would only be an issue if you were laying down and getting shot at from behind (friendly fire?) or if the shot was somehow coming from underneith you (thru a floor?) Does anyone know of a police service that has started testing it to see what theyve found out?

Posted by: viktor at February 4, 2007 10:09 AM

Is the Dragon Skin Body armour available for purchase

Posted by: buddy at February 3, 2007 10:41 PM

Yeah ... I do believe i'd quicker place my trust in a former U.S. Navy Seal like Mack Machowiczs (Who TOOK PART in a demonstration/test of Dragon Skin for himself) LONG before i'd put any stock in the words of an employee of a marketing competitor. Machowiczs himself rigged the Dragnoskin Armor directly on top of a fragmentation grenade and the vest recieved absolutely NO penetration! (This might address some concern from an earlier post about the angle of impact to the Dragonskin armor.)

Posted by: Bailey at February 1, 2007 10:52 AM

im a memeber of the united states marine corps, and i have to say that the body armor we are currently issued cannot stand up to the job we need it to do. we have just recently been issued new sapi plates said to withstand 7.62mm armor peircing rounds. they are almost an inch thick, hindering mobility and movement. not to mention it is clearly marked "fragile - handle with care". how can i expect it to stop multiple rounds from an assault rifle when it will break just by being dropped?

Posted by: kevin at January 30, 2007 10:28 AM

Im wondering how the armour handles an angle shot? If a person were laying down and shotat the right angle...how easily can a bullit slip between the plates like lifting up a fish scale and slide right by? I imagine a solid plate would easily reflect such a shot like a stone off water surface... but the scale design may fail. Given the fact that your more likely to be ducking or laying down while being shot at than standing in an upright position this could really be an issue

Posted by: viktor at January 28, 2007 09:30 PM

quote:"I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents," Master

This was said tongue in cheek, he was implying that it's so unsafe that the insurgents would die with it on.

That's off topic though, the US Armed Services have an obligation to our troops and the public to keep our men and women safe. If it's good then scrap what we're using and go with it!

Posted by: Robert at January 26, 2007 12:58 PM

IM CURRENTLY IN THE MILITARY. UNCLE SAM HAS NEVER DONE ANY TESTING FAIR. WHEN THE M-16 WAS INTRODUCED ARMY BRASS DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO DISCREDIT THE WEAPON. IT WAS THEN SOLD TO JUST ABOUT EVERYONE. WHEN THE FIRST SOLDIERS IN VIETNAM CAME ACROSS VIETNAMESE SOLDIERS USING THEM AND REALISED THAT THE WEAPON WAS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE STANDARD ISSUE M-14 THE TOP BRASS WAS PRESSURED INTO UPDATING AN OUTDATED WEAPON. THE SAME WOULD HAVE TO BE SAID ABOUT DRAGON SKIN. THE BRASS DOES NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT SAFETY. THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH PUTTING MORE TROOPS ON THE FRONT LINE OR HOW MUCH MONEY IT WOULD SAVE. I WAS IN IRAQ FROM 2003 TO 2004 AND THERE WERE STILL PERSONNEL OUT THERE WITHOUT ANY BULLET RESISTANT BODY ARMOR. AND I'M SURE THERE ARE STILL SOME TODAY. MORE AND MORE FUNDS ARE WASTED IN THE ARMED FORCES ON DESIGNING NEW UNIFORMS OR OUTLANDISH BANQUETS FOR SOME TOP BRASS VISIT OR DINNER. WE WERE ACTUALLY RUNNING OUT OF AMMO WHEN WE WERE THERE. SOLDIERS FROM ANOTHER UNIT GOT THEIR BODY ARMOR SENT TO THEM WITHOUT THE RIFLE PLATES.SO IF THIS DRAGON SKIN IS BETTER UNCLE SAM NEEDS TO DIG INTO HIS POCKETS AND OUTFIT EVERY LAST MILITARY MEMBER WITH A MUCH SUPERIOR BODY ARMOR AGAINST OUR ENEMIES

Posted by: donp at January 24, 2007 12:33 PM

Why is an employee of a competitor doing the testing?

Posted by: cynthia at January 23, 2007 07:29 PM

I have recently viewed a Discover Channel show that tested the Dragon Skin Body Armor. I was nonetheless impressed. I am a soldier currently serving in the Armed Forces. My son is 3 years away from serving if he chooses. If this armor is as good as they say, the powers that be are committing in my opinion, a mortal sin against the soldier on the battlefield. I understand cost analysis, procurement problems and the like. But in 21 years of service I have seen my fair share of fraud, waste and abuse. Bottom line, if this is better use it! I would like to see some unbiased testing of this armor and make my decision from there. But overall lets do it now, not on a timeline that is unrealistic.

Posted by: Michael at January 22, 2007 11:48 PM

"What the hell is the matter with you? You'd have Pinnacle send their Dragon Skin armor to Iraqis and endanger the lives of our soldiers? I agree that there needs to be a "change of policy" but to risk the lives of the people who're supposed to be wearing the armor defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place."

Iraqi Forces, genius. Not the insurgency.

Posted by: Bob at January 10, 2007 07:19 PM

"THE TEST CONDUCTED ON THE DICOVERY CHANNEL INCLUDED 7.62X39 A.P. ROUNDS IMPORTED FROM IRAQ. AS I REMEMBER THEY FIRED 20 ROUNDS AT CLOSE RANGE WITH NO PENETRATION. THE BEST IDEA FOR PINNACLE IS GIVE DRAGON SKIN SYSTEMS TO THE IRAQ FORCES AND LET FIELD TESTING EMBARRASS OUR MILITARY BRASS INTO A CHANGE OF POLICY" - thx0717

What the hell is the matter with you? You'd have Pinnacle send their Dragon Skin armor to Iraqis and endanger the lives of our soldiers? I agree that there needs to be a "change of policy" but to risk the lives of the people who're supposed to be wearing the armor defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place.

Posted by: Rominger at December 21, 2006 08:45 PM

Phillip, you're a retard.

Do a little research before opening your trap.

Posted by: rofler at December 21, 2006 01:40 AM

The following video was aired on The History Channel on 10/6/06.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7598767169430383501&hl=en

Very impressive video of a Dragon Skin test. The first part is conducted by two officers fron the Fresno, CA, Special Weapons and Tactics team, consisting of 20 rounds of armor-piercing steel jacketed 7.62 rounds followed by more than 120 9mm rounds from an MP5 to the same vest... without penetration. The second part of the test shows a home-made IED--with some nasty looking custom made shrapnel--being fired 3 times, from 3 different angles, at a human body form. The form is, quite naturally, decimated. The test is repeated with the same IED and teh same shrapnel, only this time a Dragon Skin vest is placed over the body form. The result? Zero penetration.

Keep in mind, this set of tests was set up and paid for by Pinnacle, but it does thoroughly exemplify the effectiveness of the armor. I believe a completely independant test needs to be conducted by an unrelated 3rd party, showing side-by-side comparisons between the Dragon Skin and military-issued armor.

Posted by: Angelus Darkenna at October 12, 2006 01:53 PM

I think the comments are outlandish. Everyone knows the IBA is not the best armor in the world, that is why special forces where the SPEAR BALCS armor, which provides better coverage mobility and is actually rated to stop projectiles by the National Institute of Justice. The Safety of Use message, basically prevents all Army soldiers in USASOC from being able to wear their issue armor.

Also while the IBA may offer good protection, its horrible front open design doesn't place the plate over the vital area. Most people notice plate sag issues. Furthermore it makes it difficult for soldiers to seat the buttstock of their weapon in thier shoulder, neccessary to quickly put down the enemy. I think the Army should field its SPEAR BALCS armor across the force as it is obviously a better armor system.

Posted by: ATW at October 12, 2006 12:18 PM

THE TEST CONDUCTED ON THE DICOVERY CHANNEL INCLUDED 7.62X39 A.P. ROUNDS IMPORTED FROM IRAQ. AS I REMEMBER THEY FIRED 20 ROUNDS AT CLOSE RANGE WITH NO PENETRATION. THE BEST IDEA FOR PINNACLE IS GIVE DRAGON SKIN SYSTEMS TO THE IRAQ FORCES AND LET FIELD TESTING EMBARRASS OUR MILITARY BRASS INTO A CHANGE OF POLICY

Posted by: thx0717 at September 30, 2006 09:51 PM

I have seen the test done on the discovery channel and a few others, sounds to me like somebody dont like the competition, and is throwing the mud at pinnacle, the good ole boy system at its best

Posted by: riffran at September 29, 2006 06:22 AM

The army was right to cut off their insurance. The soldiers are putting themselves at risk and the army would have to pay if they die.

As a soldier your body is a weapon of the military, it belongs to them, not to you. This is not a new concept.

Posted by: Philip at September 27, 2006 09:23 PM

We should just let the grunts choose. Yeah, it might be a rough patch starting out but I bet eventually the dudes on the ground will be able to figure out which system offers the best protection/comfort.

Posted by: Maurs at July 3, 2006 02:15 AM

Amazing. Haven't they heard of 'Conflict of Interest' over there? If I was the President/CEO of Pinnacle I'd be screaming bloody murder.

Posted by: Sian at June 30, 2006 06:11 PM

As it happens, I live in the CA city where the Dragon Skin armor is made. I've seen live fire tests, and can categorically state the author is full of sh**. The armor works, and his comments have to be politically or financially motivated as he's way, way off base.

Posted by: Craigf at June 30, 2006 05:10 PM

As stated by Punisher and the rest, you cannot take this guy's comments seriously as there is severe bias due to his "day job" as the product manager for the competition. I'm honestly suprised this was even posted.

Posted by: T69 at June 30, 2006 08:45 AM

"Masters added that he would not recommend the vest, particularly given the threat from 7.62 x 54R armor-piercing rounds."

What type of 7.62 x 54R mm is he refering to maybe the 187 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary BS40 one that is a Type V if so and i dont know why the army tested such a bullet in a type "IV" SOV 3000 .....but i want to see the Interceptor vest pass that test also lollll

Posted by: MANXA at June 30, 2006 06:15 AM

I do believe that the latest round of tests were conducted at H.P. White, an independent lab.

Posted by: Ilya at June 30, 2006 03:16 AM

Right off I'd throw out the whole test due to Karl Masters comments and the fact he works for the competition...pffft. what a crock of S#1T.

I'd love to see independant test(s)done. IT would be awesome for Pinnacle to take some over to Iraq and let the troops shoot up a few. I guess that would be the best test.

If the armor is superior to the Interceptor OTV I'd like to see all those involved fired and to go as far as imprisonment for passing on inferior armor to our troops.

Posted by: Punisher1 at June 29, 2006 07:33 PM

So his day job is selling Interceptor and they put him in charge of testing Dragonskin? When Pinnacle's biggest complaint was they were not being judged fairly because of vested interests??

This one isn't over yet.

Posted by: David hambling at June 29, 2006 02:30 PM

Whether or not Dragon Skin sucks, this procurement officer was WAY in the wrong to post his personal (and perhaps, biased) opinions on a "public" site. This constitutes, at best, a mjoar lapse in professional ethics or, at worst, a violation of federal acquisition laws.

Posted by: doom13 at June 29, 2006 02:08 PM