Bottom Line to all you Soldiers I am not allowed to say I am for or against Dragon Skin...."I CANNOT" I made my own...I tested it --It works fantastic and will be made Indestrutable soon...I can say -Chose what you think is better you feel more safer with...I will feel safer soon with MY new Armor...
LS Armor(Lorica Segmenta Armor)....That is what I will choose.

Posted by: Chris Taggart at January 29, 2009 08:00 PM

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Posted by: 弩 at November 14, 2008 07:48 AM

Well in spite of all the pros an cons about Dragonskin the simple fact remains. Id rather my brothers wear a vest with kinks and flaws than wear no vest at all... And all this crap about our government sending our soldiers to die, yes they are and have bin doing so for hundreds of years, this blood is the price of our freedom and those who died knew this when they signed up for it so stop bitching about it like someone stole something from you. They knew the risk and paid the cost for our happiness through blood an sweat, and their death diserves a more honorable mention than some pety angry rant from someone who didnt get a fat enough check from Uncle Sam.

Posted by: MadMardegun87 at October 26, 2008 03:03 PM

Dragon skin failed because the Army's tests because it can not be relied upon to protect from any level 3 threat if the armor is exposed to extreme temperatures or conditions. The fact is the armor will fail if it is transported or stored at common temperatures experienced by military equipment. If you are going to be using this armor for yourself in San Diego and will store it at room temperature in you house by all measures it is the best armor. But it is not fit for military use.

PS: Dirka Blaze, you are not only misinformed but you aren't failing to look at the bigger picture as well.

Posted by: jack at May 13, 2008 11:21 PM

I used to be for the US government. They give new 6.8mm spc rounds to specialists in their armed forces with their brand new m468, heckler and few guns manufacturs. The regular soilders sit back with a m16 with WAY less power than a AK. The enemy could use OUR SHITTY VESTS to protect themselves from OUR SHITTY GUNS. Dragonskin armor is amazing. I am not going into US military it is fucked up and they don't treat VA's like they should. I saw my grandfather who fought for this country fucked over. Then seeing JUBA. All soilders sniped in chest by juba snipers would be saved with the Dragon armor. How could the US say they fight for freedom and good and god when they send their own troops to die!

Posted by: Dirka Blaze at April 23, 2008 01:37 AM

After about 6 days of random internet surfing of military's best assualt riffles new 6,8 rounds which act same as the 7.62 or 306 round that so many hunters across the US love. The dragon skin armor dose have the flaws with the heat to cold. But what hasen't?? the basis of anyone saying that dragonskin is not safe or the best armor is just ridiculous. having many friends in the military it has outraged me seeing so many troops being sent out to die. Most snipers are using 7.62 Nato rounds. The level FUCKING 3 dragonskin armor can repel 7.62 rounds to the ground. The LEVEL 5 dragonskin armor is CLASSIFIED????? what how is this??? the government tried to fix its mistakes but the public found out. Dragonskin is the best invention. I hope all our troops get them and for all soilders i pray that juba won't take you out.

Main fact!!!!! if all US soilders had dragonskin.. JUBA on youtube.com would not be there...

SO fuck off..... the government is letting soilders die. But don't forget they ain't soilders yet. They are police officers. No war been declared. THEY sent our troops to die..........

Posted by: Dirka Blaze at April 23, 2008 01:27 AM

ur all fuking gay with men and u like to lik ur dogs weiner and ballsak

Posted by: ur gay at March 19, 2008 05:33 PM

It appears that dragon skin is the best possible protection in an environment devoid of Heat swings and Oil and Diesel immersion

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf

This my friends, however, is not the desert. Id have to say that id trust Interceptor over SOV in the desert but in any normal urban environment devoid of extreme temperature shifts id go with Dragon skin. The truth appears to be simply this..

The armor is not suited for the desert, and it costs too much anyway. Its hard to replace damaged suits.

Pinnacle is working on a level Five armor but it most likely will suffer from the same problems. If dragon skin is to make it to the front line it would need to be desert, alpine, and snow worthy.

Id trust this jacket with my life if i was a swat team member but not in Iraq, not until the design kinks are worked out. Thats all.

Posted by: Nick at November 13, 2007 02:30 AM

Kaltes I absolutely AGREE with you. BUT, why the ban on soldiers buying it for themselves. It would be hard as hell to replace the armor for the Marines and ARMY single handedly but if every troop was allowed to purchase why shouldnt they. What i dont understand is the active ban on dragon skin Products.

Posted by: Nick at November 13, 2007 02:19 AM

I've always thought, that if I, or someone was to come up with a product that was a substantial improvement over an existing system that was in widespread use. I figure there would be tremendous resistance from certain individuals and organizations that had deep financial interests as well as political and corporate connections that would go out of their way to protect their interests no matter what the costs.
This is the unfortunate reality of mankind that should be fully expected by anyone planning to launch a new and improved product that can step on the financial toes of big US defense contractors.
When I saw the DS system being demonstrated on TV I was extremely impressed and thought ,the guy that invented that is going to get a snout full of trouble. I do hope for the sake of the troops that he has skin as thick as a dragon's. He's going to need it.

Posted by: John Ryan at November 13, 2007 01:37 AM

Lemme say something. I am a marine, stationed in Iraq, I am an 0311 rifleman. I hate the flaks we have now with a passion. Ive heard of the problems with the armor in the heat... I hope they would fix it soon. The flaks we wear, are heavy, they destroy your shoulders, eat your hips, bulky, you cant move in it, and god help you if you fall on your back... ever seen a turtle on its back...same thing... personally i wouldnt give two **** if we wore any body armor at all.

Posted by: LCPL at September 25, 2007 09:44 AM

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Posted by: Me at August 2, 2007 04:55 PM

Dragonskin has yet to fix the problem with it's disks slumping to the bottom of the vest and in an e-mail from pinnacle armor I was told that there isn't a problem. The e-mail also insisted that the army was to blame for the failure of the vest. Therefore I sent an e-mail to Murray stating that "If he wanted any further endeavors in supplying armor to military he should address this small issue." He or someone claiming to be him wrote me back with the furious accusation that the Army had sabbotaged his company and that there would be no further replies to this subject. So lets see here everyone thinks the Army is keeping this armor from our troops? Well there is good reason for that because the vest isn't ready yet. The disks are not well attached and it's an easy problem to fix but it seems as if Murray wants to blame Army for his retardedness so fuck him. I think Dragonskin would be an improvement but the kinks aren's straightened out yet and in my opinion Murray should put his nose to the grindstone and fix that shit. If not then someone will have an improved version before him and then he'll have lost out anyway. I seriously doubt any soldier will be allowed to bring this to Iraq because of the problems that it has. I did three deployments and even lost a leg and I never saw anyone wearing or talking about dragonshitskin. We were more concerned with IED's because no vest can protect you from them. All this bullshit about "our Army is cheating us" makes me fucking sick and it's about time I said something about it. I don't give a fuck what any of you fucks say we have the best shit there is and if you don't think so then you aren't a real soldier any fuckin way. Now I got a big mouth and a big dick so take your pick!!!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce Wallace at August 2, 2007 02:25 PM

Dragonskin has yet to fix the problem with it's disks slumping to the bottom of the vest and in an e-mail from pinnacle armor I was told that there isn't a problem. The e-mail also insisted that the army was to blame for the failure of the vest. Therefore I sent an e-mail to Murray stating that "If he wanted any further endeavors in supplying armor to military he should address this small issue." He or someone claiming to be him wrote me back with the furious accusation that the Army had sabbotaged his company and that there would be no further replies to this subject. So lets see here everyone thinks the Army is keeping this armor from our troops? Well there is good reason for that because the vest isn't ready yet. The disks are not well attached and it's an easy problem to fix but it seems as if Murray wants to blame Army for his retardedness so fuck him. I think Dragonskin would be an improvement but the kinks aren's straightened out yet and in my opinion Murray should put his nose to the grindstone and fix that shit. If not then someone will have an improved version before him and then he'll have lost out anyway. I seriously doubt any soldier will be allowed to bring this to Iraq because of the problems that it has. I did three deployments and even lost a leg and I never saw anyone wearing or talking about dragonshitskin. We were more concerned with IED's because no vest can protect you from them. All this bullshit about "our Army is cheating us" makes me fucking sick and it's about time I said something about it. I don't give a fuck what any of you fucks say we have the best shit there is and if you don't think so then you aren't a real soldier any fuckin way. Now I got a big mouth and a big dick so take your pick!!!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce Wallace at August 2, 2007 02:25 PM

again, take a look at SFTT.org, apparently ARL, in Maryland tested two DS vests about 3 weeks ago. These tests followed FAT protocol for a "high temp" test. The number of shot and placement of the shots for these vests actually exceeded ESAPI specification. It is probably also noteworthy to mention that every single round was defeated, and yes they did use 7.62 x63mm AP2 rounds. The Army is going to have a lot of explaining to do. See the following link for more specifics on this story:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33

Posted by: patriot at July 31, 2007 10:21 PM

I watched a 7.62 round pierce the soft portion of the body armor of a marine standing next to me on post in Iraq. We learned about dragon skin while we were there and and one of my teamates bought himself a dragonskin vest. at 15 yards he fired one round from his own AK into his vest near the kidney area of the front. Without the aid of inserts the round still did not penetrate. better coverage area than inserts and allot less weight. I'm not an armchair general i'm a grunt. I'm going back in less than a year and im bringing this armor with me.

Posted by: Virge at July 29, 2007 06:40 AM

Dragonskin=useless

This forum is useless. Just Like Jay is.

Posted by: killa at July 22, 2007 11:00 AM

Wa Wa Wa. Hear me roar my profanity.

Posted by: Paul at July 22, 2007 01:00 AM

The arguement here is that all you want to talk about is a vest that is unproven and not better than Interceptor. I talk about things that can save lives and you talk about things that aren't up to our military standards yet claim that you know on factual terms that it is better so who's the asshole here? You Jay. You. My postings don't have to be about DragonShit so fuck you and how do you see that DragonShit is supperior? What? Do my truthfull posts offend you? Well I'm sorry that all you care about is shit that don't matter.

Posted by: Paul at July 18, 2007 10:10 PM

The arguement here is that all you want to talk about is a vest that is unproven and not better than Interceptor. I talk about things that can save lives and you talk about things that aren't up to our military standards yet claim that you know on factual terms that it is better so who's the asshole here? You Jay. You. My postings don't have to be about DragonShit so fuck you and how do you see that DragonShit is supperior? What? Do my truthfull posts offend you? Well I'm sorry that all you care about is shit that don't matter.

Posted by: Paul at July 18, 2007 10:09 PM

What I cannot understand is... why does it have to be one or nothing. Why is dragon skin who's role is clearly defined, being compared to IED resistant vehicles?

even if you are a pissed off soldier, I'm still not seeing the connect. I clearly see that dragon skin is superior. Should we not expect the best for our troops? What's the argument here?

Posted by: jay at July 17, 2007 10:14 PM

David you are a dumbass. They issue these weaopons because the soldier is able to carry more ammunition idiot. The M4 has a higher velocity round and is more accurate at longer ranges it also allows the soldier to carry more ammo at a lesser weight and size. As for the 9mm. the rounds are also smaller allowing more ammo to be carried at considerably lesser weight as well. The 9mm. can be fired repeatedly without a major kickback like that of the 45. Dragonskin can't be issued until the problem of the disks disslodging is addressed. If you ask me it never will be issued because of the accusatory statemnts of Neal Murray. He has proven to be very unproffesional and does not want to fix the problem therefore he and his company are to blame and not the U.S. ARMY. David you are retarded and should stick to banging your sister instead of acting like a 60's era activist on this forum trying to blame military for Pinnacle's incompetent actions and manufacturing. Neal should hire some Americans to fix these problems because from what I've seen and heard they are mostly illegal immigrants who don't care about America's army.

Posted by: Paul Breaks at July 7, 2007 03:20 PM

The MRAP vehicles are a major turning point in this war. It's a major improvement over the armored Hum-V's. Casualties will be substantially lower and hopefully they will produce enough for all soldiers to use thus elliminating IED casualties. I'm glad to see that things are starting to shape up in Iraq as far as equipment and I beleive the moralle will be raised with this addition. I'm not sure what to think of Dragonskin though. If there is an issue with it's design you would think a sensible company would fix the problem or just go away. Interceptor is very reliable and from everything I've heard about Dragonskin it doesn't seem reliable at all.

Posted by: Drago at July 5, 2007 11:18 AM

Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED's were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn't seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.

Posted by: >>> at July 5, 2007 08:27 AM

I'm not disrespectfull. I may be an aggravated soldier of America who hates wannabe soldiers but that's my right. Dragonskin isn't ready for use period. I'm not saying it never will be but for now we have Interceptor and that's all that matters. Why aren't these people that are championing Dragonskin also bringing up the issues of our armored vehicles. When I was first deployed to Iraq in 2004 our Hum-V's were not protected at all. There were no doors on the one I drove and the protection was non-existant. It's good to see that they are making upgrades to these vehicles. IED attacks are the biggest problem in Iraq and no vest on the planet or universe will protect you from them. I don't care if you are wearing two Dragonskins and two Interceptors. Your legs arms and head will be decimated by a stacked IED. So to all you armor experts what is the answer for this problem? I know one thing, the answer deffinately isn't nor will it ever be Dragonskin.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 3, 2007 03:48 PM

I am disrespectful sorry everybody for being so vulgar. I dont know that small children visit this site with their parents. I am ashamed of my behavior.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 3, 2007 01:39 PM

1. Why would the army let generals and bodyguards (elite soldiers) wear dragon skin while enforcing their so called "Equal Ban" on the rest of the regular armed forces?

2. Why would the army ban dragon skin before they even tested it?

3. Why would the army order extra heavy dragon skin vests with scales that are not even found in areas of Full Torso Wrap and later criticize the vest for its weight?

4. Why would the air force fire rifle rounds into the ballistic fabric portion of a Dragon skin vest when the vest only had scales in the front for testing purposes?

Fact:

80% of 401 marines who died from torso injuries in 2004 would have lived had they been wearing Dragon Skin since bullets struck the soft portion of their vests. This is fact, you cannot refute this. Bad guys in iraq don't have high-power AP machine guns or anti-material sniper rifles.

Clearly, the army is playing favorites here:

Instead of giving each soldier a more effective .45 pistol, they continue to issue pussy 9mm beretta pistols.

Army insists the m4 is the premier assault weapon when Delta Force are already using the unjammable and state of the art HK416

Case in point.

Posted by: David Hambling at July 3, 2007 01:37 PM

You can argue over Dragon Skin if you like, but to say the the IBA is the premier system. . . well, not to my eyes. I suppose it depends, as ever, on the intended use. There's also no question it's gotten better in the latest iteration. It's just a few years behind Paraclete and Eagle (and perhaps a few others) technology wise, which is not too shabby for government procurement. There is a darker truth here. You can only field so many products, so fast, for so much money. Drawing from a limited resource pool, the government has to judge whether enhanced equipment in other areas and training might not be a more cost effective life saving measure. It might not make you feel warm and fuzzy when you wear the stuff, but if "perfect" armor saves 100 lives a year and better equipment and training saves 150. . . where is the money better spent?

Posted by: DJL2 at July 3, 2007 07:16 AM

Interceptor saves lives. Dragonskin can't even pass an FAT test which means there are critical issues wwith it. The issue of the disks coming unglued or unattached is the biggest problem I've seen. I bet if you tested DS in the field in Iraq it would fail catostrophicly. The day to day temperature swings, with being in excess of 125 degrees at times and then being in an air conditioned base or even slightly cooler than 80 degrees would cause the disks to eventually disattach and slump to the bottom of the vest. Until the issues are addressed there is nothing better than Interceptor. To anyone who thinks differently then the smell in the air arround you is chicken shit. And you are looking for reasons to get out of your duties to this country. Hey if I had a choice of not going to Iraq I wouldn't but as a soldier you gotta do what you gotta do. I have been in two tours and have been through a lot but I know one thing is for certain my comrads and I weren't worried about our equipment. All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst so to all you who are gonna be deployed, good luck and keep good faith because we all need it. I recommend these steps for daily inspiration. 1. Remember the fallen soldiers and fight in their honor 2. Tell yourself you are gonna make it. And beleive it. Because you will. 3. Don't see it as a death sentence. Too many soldiers can get depressed in those conditions. If you have free time use it to socialize or play sports or guitar or whatever you are in to. 4. It's always good to talk to your family back home. I didn't always have a chance to do this, but when you can you'll see that it makes a hell of a difference in your attitude and well being. 5. Finally when you get home don't hesitate to get extensive counseling and also talk with your comrads about your experience because they are really the only ones that can understand those experiences.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 1, 2007 07:42 PM

Why is this pointless discussion still going on when Phillip Coyle one of Dragon Skins main pushers clearly admitted to congress that “Dragon Skin is not ready for prime time”?
My God, I think I've just won the entire argument.

Posted by: Jim at July 1, 2007 07:08 AM

Why is this pointless and blatantly vulgar discussion still going on when the designer of Interceptor Body Armor is clearly shown admitting to the NBC crew that his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin?

My God, I think I've just won the entire arguement.

Good Night.

Posted by: Trax at July 1, 2007 12:27 AM

Hey washouts, I don't go arround franticly weighing my vest like a girl, I gave an estimate and I don't give a shit what it weighs as long as it works. It's funny how many idiots say they are in military and then try to say the armor is faulty or too heavy. Grow up and quit bitching. Idon't know where you came up with a vest hindering marksmanship. Is your body so puny that the vest slides down your soldiers? Over the years I've trained to carry a ruck sack that can weigh at times in excess of 70 lbs for very long distances. If you are real soldiers you will stop being little bitches about your gear. Any further replies will be seen as being made by wannabes anyway. The soldiers in Iraq don't complain about their gear because they are real soldiers so fuck you! If this message bothers you, you can kiss my fucking asshole.

Posted by: Message In Blood at June 29, 2007 12:24 AM

To Message in Blood (Army Ranger). 28 Pounds? You must be carrying only a couple magazines and an expensive knife or something. And I have a sneaking suspicion you forgot the plates. As for hindering marksmanship, the IBA does. It has nothing to do with the weight. It's the fact that the bulk of the vest hinders a solid base for the buttstock of your weapon (I apologise for assuming, but I am guessing you carry an M-16, as you appear to be a non-combat arms "ranger") As for critisizing others for poor spelling, check your post. The rule is "i" before "e", except after "c", or sounding like "a" in neighbor and weigh. Punk Bitch.

Posted by: SarcasmIsAwesome at June 28, 2007 07:38 AM

Hey Army Ranger. If your IBA weighs just 28 pounds, you might want to put your fuckin SAPI plates in and start carrying a full combat load. Oh, I see, you are carrying all the needed gear because you are a FOBBIT. By the way, I don't have a dragon skin, I wear my IBA with my plates and a full combat load and its a hell of a lot heavier than 28 pounds but that has never nor will it ever stop me from doing my job.

Posted by: JT at June 28, 2007 03:29 AM

E4, Dragon Skin doesn't solve any of your mentioned problems because it's arkward heavier and failed several ballistic tests! Do a little research before you post

Posted by: Jim at June 25, 2007 04:52 AM

Hey 4E, I don't know what vest you were issued but mine with all the necesary equipment included weighs about 28lbs. I'm an ARMY RANGER and I have been through two gruelling deployments. I think you're either a dillusional Dragonskin fanatic or you just can't carry the weight like the rest of our forces. My marksmanship has nothing to do with the weight of my vest and I have carried numerous comrades to safety with no problems at all. So maybe you see your vest as making you 40% weaker but I think my vest makes me 40% stronger. come on dude, you can't even spell own and you expect me to beleive your tash? Wake the fuck up man if you say you're in military then act like it and stop being a little weak bitch. Punk Mother Fucker.

Posted by: Message In Blood at June 24, 2007 11:17 PM

Why in the hell would you be recomending this for insurgents? You dumb ass screw you and semper fi.

Posted by: The Marine at June 23, 2007 06:32 PM

IM A SOLDIER WHO IS CURRENTLY SERVING A 3RD YR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND CAN FROM EXPERIENCE SAY THAT THE INTERCEPTOR RENDORS A SOLDIER TACTICALLY WEAKER BY ATLEAST 40% IN EVERY WAY, MY ARMOR WITH AMMO AND EQUIPMENT WEIGHS ABOUT 60LBS AND PREVENTS ME FROM MOVING FREELY, RENDERS COORDINATION, WEAKENS MARKSMANSHIP, EXITING AND ENTERING A GUNTRUCK, BECOMES OVERLLY EXAUSTING WHEN ON PATROL FOR ENDLESS HRS, AND CARRYING A WOUNDED COMRAD TO SAFETY CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE.. IF THE DRAGON SKIN CAN FIX THESE ISSUES, LIGHTENING THE LOAD, MORE FLEXIBILITY AND HELPING US MOVE TACTICALLY AND PROFICENTALLY AS WE SHOULD BE THEN THESE SENIOR LDRS NEED TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT MONEY AND START THINKING ABOUT SAVING OUR LIVES AND LET US USE IT... I WOULD BUY MY OUN IF I DIDNT THINK MY FAMILLY TO BE CHEATED ON MY LIFE INSURANCE45

Posted by: 4E at June 20, 2007 08:07 AM

why is this argument still going when the youtube movies clearly show the creator of interceptor admitting that dragon skin was by far superior?

my god, i think i just won the entire arguement.

Posted by: Trax at June 19, 2007 03:44 PM

I am in the Army and with yet another upcoming deployment I welcome any body armor that is better than ours. As far as problems with either system, all I can say is nothing is perfect. One final note, I personally have ordered a set of dragon skin shoulder armor.

Posted by: Ryan at June 18, 2007 11:12 PM

Good one Paul. Do you really think I'm gonna put my e-mail address on this forum. Besides, my time in the military went well and there are problems in every situation in life and the issues were compounded by heat and chaffing and not a manufacturing error or something that you media fucks would like to get a hold of to lower our soldiers morale.

Posted by: Mike at June 18, 2007 10:35 PM

On May 22, "staff sgt." and "mike luchenbach" posted complaints about Interceptor (weight, rash, immobility). I'm a reporter who's been reading this message board and would like to know more. Is there a way to reach you?

Posted by: paul at June 18, 2007 09:57 AM

goodbye!

Posted by: Jaco at June 15, 2007 05:03 PM

hello?

Posted by: s at June 12, 2007 06:50 PM

William and Allan D. Bain's silence is a result of a cock in their mouth. More coverage from Dragon Skin makes sure that their mouths are covered. You know I'm right. And look at how those two stop posting at almost the same time. Makes you wonder, huh?

If i was in the military i would buy dragon skin and defy the orders. If they court martial me, I will hire the greatest attorney of U.S. history to save soldiers from unecessary injuries.

Posted by: Cola at June 4, 2007 07:10 PM

you serve? please tell me you bought and wear dragon skin and not submit to the request of those rich old men. fight it with boldness and courage devil dog. hoo-ah!

Posted by: Coke at June 4, 2007 07:04 PM

I bet Mr.Bain will change his e-mail address after that great beating. But hopefully not cause it's great to write a few paragraphs and then bash him about being a fag. Big ups to Devil Dog you kick ass.

Posted by: Grunt123Grunt123 at June 3, 2007 10:29 PM

Try being in military and not being allowed to use the better armor Coke. It really sucks. I mean they had to bust out the other-worldly conditions to make it barely fail. That is bullshit.

Posted by: Grunt123Grunt123 at June 3, 2007 10:26 PM

Holy crap dude! Dragon Skin stopped more bullets than the standard U.S. armor and had around 20mm of trauma every shot while the Interceptor had around 30-50mm, and also stopped three very powerful bullets. It was also flexible and covers more than 95% of your torso from those nasty rifle bullets, and it defeated a point blank detonation of an m67 fragger!

I am never joining the military unless I get to use this stuff. Period.

Posted by: Coke at June 3, 2007 05:56 PM

Allan Bain is a closeted homosexual.
For confirmation of this or for a free 18 in. dildo e-mail him at .http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Posted by: Devil Dog at June 3, 2007 03:45 PM

Allan Bain is a closeted homosexual.
For confirmation of this or for a free 18 in. dildo e-mail him at .http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Posted by: Devil Dog at June 3, 2007 03:44 PM

The leathernecks have spoken and have dominated these forums like everything else. Allan Bain and his fag buddy William have been ousted and rightfully so.

Posted by: Leatherneck at June 3, 2007 03:26 PM

IBA sucks

Posted by: 123 at June 2, 2007 06:32 PM

Christian,

Isn't there something you can do to pull jerk off posts making lewd sexual comments off the posting??

Anyway I am done posting go here for our statement about DS and the IBA debate:

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Any constructive criticism or positive feedback is welcomed and should be directed to info@evolutionarmor.com

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at June 1, 2007 01:37 PM

Where is Allan Bain I called him last night and he didn't answer. We were supposed to have gay sex. I swallow as well, in all holes.

Posted by: William at May 31, 2007 12:43 PM

william sucks cock for a living and has a pussy behind that little 1/2inch sorry excuse for a cock of his.(deffinately a faggot ass) obviously doesnt know shit about shit, and wants a personal meeting with the Devil Dogs.check yourself talking shit about Marines ya fukkin sorry excuse for a human being weak ass pussy motherfucker.someone might take it personal.fuck ass william-gay name too.fag.

Posted by: chin check squad at May 30, 2007 07:22 PM

William down before you blow a gasket.

The designer of Interceptor admits his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :)

Also, while you Army folks enforce an "equal ban" on Dragon Skin, you let select elite troops and your generals wear it. It all adds up. Good thing I learned my 5th grade math.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 30, 2007 06:49 PM

You are wrong Dragonskin failed it all. You are the fag you punk ass bitch. Interceptor is the best and you all know it. Allan Bain is the only one who has something better than Interceptor. And the Marines aren't good at testing anyways, all they do is yell at people and make people feel horrible for not being inhuman.

Posted by: William at May 30, 2007 04:57 PM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

You still don't believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it...I'm beginning to see a pattern here...Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC...Yep and Dragon Skin can't stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I'm sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you're going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 04:30 PM

Who is this Allan Bain guy? I checked out his website and all I saw was copies of Dragonskin, what a hack. The only guy making any sense of this situation is Leatherneck.

DEVIL DOGS FOREVER!!!
SEMPER FI!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Riggs at May 29, 2007 02:16 PM

If only Marines had tested this armor, there wouldn't have been a media circus surrounding it.
It's rediculous for the Army to play into this controversy at all. If anyone (Allan Bain) has something in the works, you should stop pre-hyping your product and come to us Marines to have it tested when you think it's ready. We could have worked with Dragonskin on their issues but they chose to take (what they thought) would be the easier route. That's typical of anyone with armor designs, they pass up Marines for Army and now everyone can see the faults instead of the corrected problems that Marines can achieve. We don't play games in the Marines, we don't play he said-she said, we see if the product is up to our standards and if it is then it's good for all military.

Posted by: Leatherneck at May 29, 2007 08:40 AM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

You still don't believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it...I'm beginning to see a pattern here...Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC...Yep and Dragon Skin can't stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I'm sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you're going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 12:12 AM

No dave. I cant believe all the things you say. All wrong.
the inventor of INTERCEPTOr said his armor is worse, not the inventor of Dragon Skin.

and

Dragon Skin passes drop tests

its funny argueing with people like you. it's like dealing with children. they keep saying the same thing over and over, and totally oblivious to the facts. LoL!

@ Allan

Your plan to shoot down Dragon Skin and advertise your own armor isn't working on me. It may work on those like Dave who have no brain.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 12:09 AM

Dear Joseph,

The temperature extremes are not about testing a siutation where "you would wear armor" and operate in -25 - +160 F extremes in a day to day operation; its about excelerated aging whereby the testers get a view as to how expansion and contraction of the product effects the armor. It is completely relevent, and accelerated age testing is used in just about all industries in this day and age.

I don't think you should be calling others on this forum retards, it's imflamitory, and unnecessary, and detracts from intelligent discussion.

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at May 28, 2007 04:44 PM

Dear Txzen,

Do you know how much it would weigh with the best ceramic armor in place to cover 97% of your body to protect against an "elephant gun"? probably a 100 Lbs. Or if he really used hi tech solutions using some of the emerging technologies and they really lived up to the performance increase, do you know how much each suit would cost, Not including the "bear repellant spray appartus" just take a guess and add two more zeros per unit.

That Bear repellant spray demonstration really sinched it for me, the lead in of being surrounded by 40 insurgents closing in, what are you going to do? I imagined his solution to be nerve gas grenades or some kind of mass delivery device emminating from his suit, and the soldier would be immuned because of the suit's positive ventilation. THe actual demonstration was a big let down, and I would bet the rest of the suit is too, but hey I have been wrong before.

On a positive note, as far a prototype representation for this concept armor I thought that was real impressive, nice vision, excellent
prototyping skills.

Posted by: Allan D. BAin at May 28, 2007 04:34 PM

Every ESAPI lot passes the drop test. Does that mean you should punsh it with an baseball bat or drop it? No...Do you hit your MITCH with slegdehammer? Is it fragile because of that? Dragon Skin even failed the minimum drop test.
Plane --> Iraq ?
What can this mean? Perhaps: plane -25 degrees
Iraq 120 degrees?
Also temperatures in vehicles can easily come up to 160 degrees and your vest falls apart.
The "inventor" of Dragon Skin says that it is right now inferior to IBA.
I can't understand what you want. Everybody wants better body armor. When Dragon Skin is improved and fullfits FAT (=minimum quality standarts for military use) and offers equal protection for equal weight you can argue for your points again. But I am sure that in this case it would be bought without your wise advice. Right now you seem to pimp a product that not even meets basic qualitiy standarts and is heavier than 1st generation RBA.

Posted by: Dave at May 28, 2007 12:33 PM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 27, 2007 08:28 PM

Another fucking retard to dismantle. Why should the plate say handle with care if it passed a drop test you stupid fuck? What does "Temperature switch minus 25 to 120 -->?" mean? There isn't a difference between Fragile and Handle with care shit head.

Posted by: Joseph at May 27, 2007 05:14 PM

ESAPI plates passed drop test! That's why it is called ESAPI-test protocol.
I guess you never saw a SAPI, because there is nowhere the word fragile.
Next time army doesn't print "handle with care" on any item because of bad publicity.
Temperature switch minus 25 to 120. Plane --> Iraq?

Posted by: Dave at May 27, 2007 03:26 PM

Damn straight and there ain't no way Interceptor would survive the drop test so that's the worst arguement ever, they have the word FRAGILE on them dumbass. Who's next?

Posted by: PanFuckinTeraCFH at May 26, 2007 05:09 PM

The only reason it failed is because they wanted it to. Have you ever heard of being in minus 25 degrees one minute and then one second later been in temperatures exceeding 120? Now I don't know if those temps are right but they were probably even more extreme. So I don't know what planet you live on CB but those conditions don't exist on this planet or at least not in that rapid of a succesion. THEY WILL LOSE MONEY IF THEY GO WITH DRAGONSKIN AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON THEY SABBOTAGED IT. JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF US SOLDIERS
BEING SHORT CHANGED FOR FINANCIAL REASONS.

Posted by: At War With Everything at May 26, 2007 11:37 AM

OK, so what if the National Institute of Justice may have certified a vest at Level III for civilian use. That is a lesser standard, no temperature requirements, no oil/fuel/sea water spills, no drop tests.

What does that have to do with the fact the the level IV tactical military product failed when subjected to military tests?

Posted by: CB at May 25, 2007 11:45 PM

Actually from what I understand most armor works better at an angle including dragon skin. A flush 90 degree shot is the most devastating, and dragon skin uses to this it's advantage as most shots will hit at an angle on one of the discs.

Posted by: txzen at May 24, 2007 08:27 PM

Hey..how about shooting it from an angle...I bet those beautiful round SA works great....not all shots come at you dead in front of you...
Stop the sales pitch we know better profiteers...

Posted by: Kick ass at May 24, 2007 08:14 PM

Hey dudes Dragonskin is my fav. You can see me in several movies including The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2, House Of 1000 Corpses, and The Devil's Rejects just to name a few. I bought a Dragonskin vest to play arround with and I've shot it up and it's still holding it's integrity.
Lick the plate you dog dick.HA HA HA.

Posted by: Mr. Moseley at May 24, 2007 04:11 PM

Yes siree, and use Dragon Skin for armor and get more MRAP vehicles and give soldiers more benefits/money. That's how to do it.

Posted by: Dog of War at May 24, 2007 02:44 PM

I know how America can win the war. KILL'EM ALL LET GOD SORT'EM OUT. The truth hurts but losing hurts more.

Posted by: Rambeau Reincarnated at May 23, 2007 11:47 PM

O.K. I found the Trojan suit that's made by the bear suit guy. It looks pretty kick-ass but it's only a prototype. I wish I could buy it and use it but that ain't gonna happen. Still though, I think he's going in the right direction with the idea and it will probably be a reality in say, 2032 or something. Whoever buys that suit off e-bay is a lucky bastard because that shit is just cool.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:45 PM

I'm really interested in that Trojan armor you were talking about. Where can I see it because 97%
body coverage is fuckin awesome. Hell if it is better than DS then why are we wasting our time?

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:33 PM

I think the X-rays are a valid point. However the adhesive issue is very easy to fix. Let me ask you this have you ever been in minus 25 degree weather and then one second later been in 120 degree weather? Me neither.And I'm not sure if those are the right temperatures but you get the idea. I think the ARMY is willing to accept Dragon Skin if they address that one issue or at least I hope so. Gen. Brown has to tell it like it is. He knows that if DS fixes the adhesive issue that the Interceptor will not be competiton.
He also said if there is better armor we'll buy it
after it's live fire tested so I hope we can get this to some sort of resolution. If you're reading this Pinnacle Armor, fix the addhesive so that drastic temperatures don't effect it. If you aren't reading this then I'll e-mail you anyways.
I'm doing everything I can to make sure we have the best for the best.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:28 PM

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf good pdf some people cite a lack of accreditation and letter head and documentation but gen brown I think presented parts of it in Wash DC or something like that

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 04:59 PM

Interesting comments from current soldiers, thanks. What do you guys think of the x-rays showing lots of discs being displaced because of extreme temps and the first test of a 1st or 2nd shot penetration on the middle upper chest at ambient temp? I have seen all the pinnacle videos and the test lab and the future weapons and the mail call videos and the nbc tests and DS looked great but the armies x-rays really do show a different story. Is it just the extreme temps and a lucky shot at ambient temp? Or mischaracterization? Or just not a big deal because IBA won't protect there anyway?

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 04:50 PM

Exactly SSG Barret, I too wanted to wear DS instead of IBA but I couldn't risk my career. I want to make sure that everyone knows that we are being short changed in military. It's not practical for us to wear armor that has these weaknesses that insurgents and Al Qaeda operatives can exploit. We need to cut the snake of at the head and get our armor upgraded. We need more MRAP vehicles as well. I have already been wonded once wearing the Interceptor, I was given a Purple Heart and they offered me a desk job for the remainder of my service. I did not accept the desk job and will also be back in action soon. I am a Staff Sgt. and I train my soldiers to have inhuman-like endurance therefore, this type of shit can't break their psychy but it is yet another subject that eats on them. I give them my word that what they are issued is the best but now I'm not so sure. I am also writing my state senators and I encourage you to do the same, certainly if we all write they'll have to listen. This issue deserves congressional attention and if I have to I'll write a million letters until my voice is heard. I always like to start my letters with: I am a Purple Heart recipient and I will be on an extended tour of duty soon. I would like to address an issue near and dear to my heart, I am very concerned that we are not getting the proper equipment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mainly the issue of body armor haunts me at night, I would like for a full-unbiased test of Dragonskin's armor. I know that there are many,many things that need to be addressed as well but at least this will be a good start..............

Posted by: Staff Sgt. TD at May 23, 2007 04:37 PM

Well I have read all the BS on here and laugh at some of the idiotic comments....Murray Neal never lied...if you looked at the website Pre December 2006 he stated it was in the process of being NIJ Level III certified and in his own words passed those criteria...and behold it did. I am a SSG on active duty, on my second tour in Iraq...And yes I am a trigger puller. I wore IBA my first tour because in 03/04 it was the best we had... NOW I wear a dragon skin SOV 2000.. comfort, coverage, and reliabilty are what this gives me...IBA's approach to keep adding to a carrier that was crap was bad and is wrong. To have our troops using hard plate armor that I have seen fail with gaps in coverage is unexcuseable. I will forever be thankfull to my family for helping me purchase my Dragon Skin, I didnt buy into the Hype I bought the best, the tests show it, The Army I am sure will be changing over some day..probably after a congressional hearing...bueracrats, lobbyists, and certain persons in command should beware, the truth will come out. To say it failed 13 of 48 shots. Where were the shots placed... the shoulders are not ment to stop rifle rounds. We are only trying to protect vital organs and the torso. Even the IBA doesnt give protection here. Most soldiers that are shot from 7.62 x 39 are only hit once maybe twice if they are unlucky, so the possibility that a vest will take multiple rounds is unlikely, also soldiers that I have that wear IBA must replace a ESAPI after one hit, because we are told the plate is comprimised, I thought it could withstand many more than that...I will continue to violate the ban and hope congress acts quickly.

Posted by: Sean Barrett at May 23, 2007 03:16 PM

What are you talking about William? Why no one wants to comment on Trojan full body armor with 97 percent coverage with ceramics that have stopped elephant gun rounds! I like that inventor I hope he gets an official test soon. I would like to know if he is a crack pot or an innovator.

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 01:48 PM

William's silence is due to a cock in his mouth.
More coverage is better than less coverage regardless of weight. You know I'm right.

Posted by: Snapkick at May 23, 2007 02:52 AM

Do you hear that?................The silence is deafening!

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 11:02 PM

How do you like me now?

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 11:00 PM

You think IBA is the best? have you seen the trojan suit? http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1168470616997&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1014656511815
If you were going to be the first man through the door of an insurgent hideout which would you like to be in? keep in mind you could probably wear IBA over the trojan suit. If they are used to carrying 100 pounds anyway then 75 pounds on a mission wouldn't be so bad.
(this is just to lighten things up btw)

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 05:48 PM

Hey punks Interceptor is the best.
That's all I have to say.

Posted by: ARMY STRONG at May 22, 2007 04:57 PM

My brother who is 19 is in Iraq right now. He has heard about this Dragonskin and so has his platoon. They know that it's hard to get anything accomplished when you are fighting yourself. His commanders have talked to Gen. Patraeus and he has been fighting for everything that will help them achieve progress. Our armor needs to change and if you can't see that then you are blind.

Posted by: Vick at May 22, 2007 03:42 PM

I am not an expert on this issue but after watching the entire NBC report I strongly believe that the army should retest (comparison test) dragonskin again, preferably with some independent observers present. The army spokepersons were evasive, sticking to a very unconvincing script that did not explain any of the problems raised by the reporter. I hope that the army will relent and have fair, unbiased testing done soon, unburdened by conflict of interest - the men and women serving in the army deserve that!

Posted by: Thor Thorson at May 22, 2007 02:15 PM

It's about time someone made some sense Staff Sgt.
I was an Infantryman and served in Iraq in 2004.
You bring up issues that I too went through. The rubbing isn't that bad for the first few weeks but after a few months I started breaking out and that led to the rash that you most likely encountered like me. I noticed if I had to take a shit and didn't want to take my vest off that it was almost impossible. Now that isn't a very good arguement but it was a problem more than once for me. I also had issues with the necesary tightness as I was told, it has to be tight so that the impact of a bullet doesn't have any room to cause worse trauma. I thought to myself, what the fuck?
The other thing is that the insurgents have known about the weaknesses at least since I was there. I recall seeing a leaflett that was in a suspected Al Qaedah opperative's house (or compound I should say) the leaflett had a picture of the Interceptor vest and in red highlighting were areas of high fatality risks as our interpereter conveyed. It is time for a change in our armor and I have taken your advice sir and been spreading the word to whoever really cares to write their senators or anyone who will get this issue to congress.

Posted by: Mike Luchenbach at May 22, 2007 01:40 PM

I'm pretty sure that more coverage and more weight is better than less coverage and less weight. If you think the average foot soldier would take less coverage for less weight instead of more coverage and more weight then you don't know any Infantrymen. For one Dragonskin is weight proportionate. I experienced something I like to call Interceptor Rash when I was in Iraq. The cause of this was the heat and sweat combined with the Interceptor's shoulder straps. It was so bad after three weeks that there were scabs forming and I lost a lot of necessary sleep because every time I'd roll to my side I'd scrape the scabs causing them to bleed. I did however get used to this and eventually my skin toughened up but at the time it was just anoyher problem that I had no controll over. The problem is if you tighten your vest as much as possible you start to feel light headed after about thirty minutes. If you let the vest have a little play it starts to rub you the wrong way so to speak. I think Dragon Skin could address that issue and provide substantially more coverage. Interceptor has issues that aren't easily solved; the weight of the vest is centered arround pulling down on your soldiers, the armor doesn't give much room for crouching, there are major weak points which insurgents already know of, I found that the armor can be restrictive to heavy breathing such as if you were sprinting, I swear if you were to have a sneeze attack you'd get a hernia because you can't really exert force and bend because of the plates, and the side plates also bring about rash issues for some of the soldiers. Some of the problems are minor I must admit but the combination of these problems can't be ignored. I beleive DS can address those issues and provide us with a better feeling soldier instead of an exhausted and irritated soldier.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 01:17 PM

I would just like to correct what I said the pinnacle rep did not tell me that 10x12 weighs 4.95 I got that off the website and it is likely for sov2000 and not 3000 so it is just more questions.

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 01:04 PM

The ratios are just showing that per pound of vest how much coverage from rifle protection you get. I doesn't say it is lightweight but it might prove something is more efficient. Also the 80 percent more than 10x12 coverage full torso wrap means that the vest covers something like 2.9 for smaller vests and my calculations to 4 or so square feet for x-large vests the iba has coverage of 2.25 so yes the vest does likely weigh more but it covers more. The military sales rep told me that the full torso wrap wich covers by my calculations 414 square inches weighs 36 pounds total where the 10x12 plate that covers 115 square inches weighs 4.95 lbs. So ratios not withstanding the vest tested by karl masters covers more than the IBA we can agree that is one reason it weighs more. Now I would like to know exactly how much a similar coverage DS weighs. I might try to work it out later. BUt I don't know the kevlar weight of a ds so it might take another call to Pinnacle and they seem busy I feel bad bothering them with intent to purchase.

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 12:22 PM

The issue of cost is the only problem with Dragon Skin. At a time where a lot of soldiers are buying their own Interceptors due to either a shortage or just late notice of deployment, it's easy to see why we can't get something that costs more but is worth the price. Hell they don't even want to reimburse soldiers for buying the armor that is supposedley standard issue.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 09:25 AM

I,m fighitng for more coverage and if it weighs more then so be it. We can train for the weight additions but we can't train for the deaths that come from lesser coverage. I don't care if it weighs ten pounds more that is something that we can strengthen soldiers for anyways. Trust me I've worn the Interceptor for prolonged periods of time, the vulnerable areas might protect from handguns or small-low-velocity shrapnel but Dragon Skin protects against rifle rounds and higher velocity shrapnel. You kids don't seem to understand that this issue has to be addressed now before there are more casualties. I encourage anyone who is truly cocerned to write your state senators and try to get this issue to congress where it can be sorted out more thuroughly.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 09:07 AM

txzen your calculation makes no sense. Soft armor that is not backing up hard armor has nothing to do with rifle protection. The kevlar around plates is not a "carrier".It is designed to stop shrapnel etc. If you think you need no soft armor you can buy a plate carrier which is due to your logic extremly weight efficient as rifle protection is concerned. On the other hand a vest with attached groin protector and DAP would be extremly inefficient.
Your calculation makes no sense at all. It neither says that same coverage with plates is heavier nor it makes the SOV3000 lightweight. It is a math trick to make it appear lightweight.

If you want to see weight efficience of a hard armor system you have to compare the hard armor system alone because the different soft armor backings won't really make a difference. (To be correct OTV is actually a bit inefficient because of overlapping)
Pinnacle is offering the weights of SOV2000 10*12 panels. It is 4,95lb. Modern multihit capable (I know most won't take so many rounds but no plate has to stand up more than couple of hits) level III 10x12 plates weight between 3 and 4,5lb. Heavier plates are stand alone, ancient, made of steel or al. oxide.
Or SOV3000 10x12 panels are about 7,5lb. ESAPI's weight is 5,45lb.
OR if you want to calculate different with soft armor: A medium IBA with an 80% increase of rifle protection to traditional 10x12 plates would weight (10,9x 0,8)+10,9 (ESAPI)+ 7,66 (OTV)=27,28lb. You said Neal told you an equal vest made of DS weights 36lb. So it is a lot heavier.
As rifle coverage is concerned Dragon Skin is heavier for every covered inch.
I understand that people want more coverage, but you have to carry the weight for additional coverage and increased weight of Dragon Skin.
If you want to increase your rifle protection get XS Esapi instead of your ESBI. As coverage is concerned it is nearly like full torso wrap.

Posted by: Christian at May 22, 2007 04:27 AM

Look at this link about NBC tactics during their journalistic testing practices.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/nbc.html

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 12:53 AM

To clarify, I think DragonSkin is better and would like to use it. The coverage is better the weight is well distributed and it defeats more (API) rounds than Interceptor. The Interceptor is unflexible and uncomfortable even though it ways a little less it also can't defeat as many (API) rounds and holdit's integrity or even stop the bullets.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 08:05 PM

William...I am sorry, Christian Lowe.

Well my sources come from pretty high up the chain of command in DC and I have to believe that you do indeed have some share stock with DHB and or BAE and well I have seen the emails that came across my desk and until proven otherwise, you look and sound like Christian Lowe.

Posted by: TJ at May 21, 2007 08:02 PM

More Coverage = Less Casualties DUH!!!
Dragon Skin Beats the fuck out of Interceptor on areal coverage and that's what I want for my soldiers and myself, more coverage with more mobility, I think it's a great trade off anyways.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 08:00 PM

TJ, I work for a security company we have no affiliations to the companies you listed. You are so far off base it is funny. Are you doing your Barney Fife impersonation again? LOL

Posted by: William at May 21, 2007 07:18 PM

sov 2000 10x12 plates are listed at 4.95 lbs on the dragon skin website

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 06:10 PM

No actually the numbers are total weight for the system as worn divided by rifle coverage area. So the ratio is TOTAL weight over AREA OF COVERAGE. So webbing is counted kevlar pistol protection is counted. So basically it is a way to see how much rifle protection you get per pound carried. A single plate might have a more attractive number but we are using it to compare two systems that both include kevlar and webbing, so I think it's fair. Just showing that if the ratio is low the more weight you carry means more protection area. So scaling it down effects weight more than coverage and vice versa.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 06:08 PM

txzen your calculations are nice, but they hardly make any sense. They are not weight per area. They are a strange form of weight/ rifle protection ratio. You only count hard armor protection not soft armor as coverage is concerned and both as weight is concerned. That makes no sense. With your logic a Dragon skin with ESAPI sized inserts would also own a higher "weight per area". Your calculations suggest that a plate carrier would be the perfect form of body armor.
You have to compare the hard armor inserts for equal coverage. The easiest way is to compare 10x12 to 10x12 inserts. You will notice that Dragon Skin panels are really heavier than any modern plate system.
Also your calculation do not decrease real weight of the vests. If you want larger coverage you still have to compare e.g. a L sized IBA to a XL sized SOV3000. You nearly have a 20lb difference. staff sgt. has no problem with that but I am pretty sure most soldiers will.
If you decrease coverage the Dragon Skin concept makes hardly any sense.

Posted by: Christian at May 21, 2007 05:13 PM

To: William....Or Christain Lowe your real name?

From: TJ SWAT SGT, Former Marine Recon:

Real Name and Affiliation Exposure.

So William.

My contacts back in DC tell me your real name is Christian Lowe. Is that true?

They tell me you have been hired by the Army and in fact are a share holder in DHB or BAE, the company who just put in a bid to take over Armor Holdings.

My contacts are good.

If you are indeed Christain Lowe, which my guys have confirmed this, then your comments in this forum are worthless and meritless.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer."

Posted by: TJ at May 21, 2007 03:45 PM

Nice try, but I never said it weighed less, I'm just proving that the coverage is better with Dragonskin. There is more armor on Dragonskin period, who cares if it weighs a few pounds more. I know I don't, especialy if you get more protection.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 03:36 PM

I noticed that type about the weight of the IBA, it is in fact does not effect the calculations. If you take 2.25 times 13.8 you get 31.1. Also as I said I called pinnacle and they told me a sov 3000 full front and back torso wrap weighs 36 pounds. 36 pounds divided by 3.4 sqaure feet of coverage is 10.5. IBA by your standards is 27 pounds divided by 2.25 sqft 12. Now by my calculations from the website dragon skin covers 2.9 square feet so 36/2.9 is 12.4. Now that isn't huge differences but somewere in there MIGHT be the truth.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 03:32 PM

Nice you finally found the "truth". This document was also presented on defensetech. Sadly there are some disturbing faults. A medium sized IBA doesnt weight 33lb. The document first states that it is 31lb, then during calculation its weight is 33lb without any explanation. Both weights are wrong. A medium sized IBA weights 26,5lb (28,3 with groin protector)
A large IBA with side and ESAPI weights 28lb.
You have to compare weights of a large IBA (28lb) to an XL SOV3000 (47,5lb) because Pinnacles sizes are smaller.
The statement that rifle protection offered by Dragon Skin is "lightweight" in comparison to IBA or other plate systems is completly wrong. Simply compare weights of 10*12 Dragon Skin panels to plates. You will see that Dragon Skin is heavier for every covered square inch. This absurd statement shows that you can't trust any of Pinnacle's misleading information. Sadly sizing and maths tricks are not suited to reduce weight.
Staff Sargent if you donnot believe, visit PEO soldier and the "dragon show" article. The author wore Dragon skin and confirms that you have to wear XL for L sized Interceptor. He also states that it is substancially heavier. Or if you are serving weight your IBA and buy a Dragon Skin. Perhaps you'll find truth then.

Posted by: Christian at May 21, 2007 02:54 PM

O.K I found the truth at www.sftt.org
The Army purchased three sizes of vests for the FAT testing: Medium, Large, and X-Large. For each size, the Army ordered the maximum full torso wrap, rifle defeating coverage configurations.The size Medium has A total of 3.40 square feet of rifle coverage and weighed in at 33.15 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 9.75 pounds per square foot. The size Large has a total of 4.05 square feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 40.96 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per squre foot.
The size X-large has a total of 4.40 squre feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 46.13 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per square foot.

The difference among the total weights for the three sizes of Dragon Skin is because the weights were based on the weight of the whole vest, not just the armor pannels without the carrier as the Army base their weight comparrisons on. The larger the vest the more carrier and webbing material that is used, adding to the weight of Interceptor but not to the ballistic protection.
The Army is comparing the size medium Interceptor OTV with two 10"x12" inch plates and two 6"x7" inch side plates, witha total square footage of 2.25 square feet of rifledefeating (ballistic) coverage,and a weight of 31.1 pounds (according to Army and Marine Corps Systems Command data).
The weight per area (with ballistic protection)
in this size/configuration Interceptor vest is 13.82 pounds per square foot. Therefore, comparing a size medium Dragonskin with a size medium Interceptor:

both vests medium size- DS Int.

Weight (pounds)........... 33.15 33.10

Protected area (sq.ft.)... 3.40 2.25

Weight(lbs.)
per Protected area(sq.ft). 9.75 13.82

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 01:52 PM

For the people who decide not to look at the independent results, shame on you. This is clearly a conflict of interest problem within the Army evaluation organization. Have anybody seen video or procedures of how the Army tested Dragon Skin?

These people will forfeit a few lives if their buddies can maintain their contracts. It's happened before (Bradley, Trophy, Patriot), and it looks like it'll happen again with Dragon Skin.

Posted by: ivandrago at May 21, 2007 01:07 PM

I just called pinnacle and the military sales rep told me that sov 3000 full torso wrap wich is 80 percent bigger per panel than a 10x12, front and back, weights 36 pounds and costs 6009 dollars. Now my math makes it 414 and M. Neal says that the Medium has 3.4 sqare feet of coverage and think 414 sq inches is like 2.9 square feet. He also said he had 500 emails and 3 other lines lit up. He didn't have the exact coverage listed so I extrapolated and then also sighted what neal quoted during his rebuttle.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 10:19 AM

Oh so you want to keep "fighting," I am just saying that the numbers are out there you can find the truth if you look or maybe call. But it seems like some of you just want to flame each other. I was just pointing out we were having an interesting conversation then some flamers came on and started talking trash. Why doesn't IBA come out once and for all and prove it is as good if not better. All they have to do is buy one vest from dragon skin and run it through the tests and put it on you tube. It would be the first evidence that iba is better. Because just passing the GAO test for "good enough" doesn't mean it is the best or better than DS it just means that it meets or surpases some made up criteria. And maybe DS failed that criteria but maybe DS is still better that is the issue, if the adhesive is upgraded and the coverage level of DS is allowed to be similar to the coverage level of IBA then I think we have a real test. Because as it stands DS protects better and protects more area and then is talked badly about because it is heavier if you ask them to protect more by asking for the "full torso wrap" you are going to get a heavier kit. Let them bring a vest that is the same coverage as IBA and let's see. 1000 vest tests would be better of course.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 10:04 AM

Staff Sgt. the new article (the Dragon skin show)might intress you. In PEO soldier brief there are test results and it is said that a Dragon Skin XL is Interceptor size L. The article itself supports that, because Christian wore DS himself and says the same. That means they are ugly overweight and add about 20lb. But I think you still deserve Dragon Skin lol! I suggest you wear it under your IBA!

Posted by: johnboy at May 21, 2007 09:53 AM

I do deserve Dragonskin cause it's better and once again the numbers don't lie idiot.
Go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/ and then kill yourself.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 02:43 AM

Man are you gullable. If you believe that crap you deserve Dragon Skin.

Posted by: William at May 21, 2007 01:08 AM

The numbers don't lie idiots.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:23 AM

O.K. William we know that you are posting to yourself. Fagget Txzen come on your postings are like the democrats ideas, "come on guys", "lets stop fighting", you are a queer just like William hell you probably are William. Fuck you if you can't handle the truth. William I see a dick in your future it's up your ass from txzen. What a couple of pussies.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:20 AM

I figure since I'm still up I'll post some more test results.

Test #2a
Conducted on Interceptor Level IV vest with ESAPI Plates

1 round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 34mm.
ouch!!!
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition) Results: no penetration and BFS af 41mm. Double ouch
additional round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition) Results: no penetration and BFS of 37mm.
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 43mm.
additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Result:no penetration but BFS of 51mm.(fails BFS standard) That fuckin hurt!!!! I'm bleeding internally
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Results:Complete penetration. You do the math!!!!!!

Test #2b
Conducted on Dragonskin level IV Vest
1 round of (armor piercing incindiery amm.)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 26mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 23mm. That's amazing!!!!!!!!!!
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 26mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 23mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 11mm. Now that kicks ass!!!!!!!!!!!!
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 27 mm.

How's that for facts of truth William or whoever tried to sabbotage me. From now on I'll be posting as Staff Sgt. because someone wants to be a punk.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:15 AM

that was a lot of cruddy posts, lets just try to find out what the coverage and the weight of dragon skin really is. because if the "adhesive" problem is fixed and seriously this is america we can fix a glue problem and we know dragon skin can be scaled for whatever weight and coverage from 17 pound front and back to 40 pound full torso wrap around.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 11:43 PM

Erica, I see a street corner in your future.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 11:33 PM

Here is where I found the testing results:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 11:25 PM

That's right. BITCH!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:53 PM

We're back William and you have no one on your side. NBC proved Dragonskin and there is no more arguements to be had you douchebag. Oh wait' here is another fact you are a fagget piece of shit who sucks Allan Bains dick everyday. BITCH, don't try to post in Trey's name because he is a real man and you are a panzy power bottom. HAHAHAHA!!!!

Posted by: Erica at May 20, 2007 10:51 PM

To whoever posts in my name (William). You have no one on your side and you're not getting anything accomplished by posting in my name. Dragonskin is better and you can see the results at NBC's website. Soldiers For The Truth is great and I told you before that they get results. And boy have they gotten the results this time. Thanks for the publicity of truth SFTT, if it were not for you the story would not have been viewed as much. I'd also like to take this time to punch William in the face repeatedly and take back my name on this forum. From now on I'll be using different names since William wants to be a fag all the time.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:43 PM

Hey bros, I've been out of town since the 18th so it's obvious to me William is trying to win a losing battle. This is the real Trey and from now on I'll be switching up my posting name and putting the real facts out. Here are the test results from the testing done in Germany.
Conducted on Interceptor level IV vest with ESAPI Plates TEST 1a
1 round of (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no penetration and BFS of 30mm.

Additional round (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no pen. and BFS of32mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:no pen. and BFS of 47mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:COMPLETE PENETRATION

Test 1b
Conducted on Dragonskin Level IV test

1 round of (armor piercing amm.)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penn. and BFS of 27mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pennetration and BFS of 24mm.

Additonal round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 20mm.

See the rest of the results at NBC's website.
To william, stop trying to use me for your point of view you punk. Dragonskin will be our armor soon and those are the facts. Why would I post something that cotradicts my previous statements William? I'm pro Dragonskin because it will save lives.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:36 PM

The Army does have to answer to someone, the president is the commander and chief and congress still can subpoena officials for answers. The President and Congress are employees of the american people so they do answer to us.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 10:23 PM

My Son is on his way to Iraq and I wish he would be wearing Dragon Skin when he gets there. The testing I saw on NBC sure looked like Dragon Skin was superior.

Posted by: Gary at May 20, 2007 10:18 PM

All of your bitching won't change anything. Interceptor is our armor and it will be. You can whine all you want and I know you will. There are too many issues with it and Pinnacle should either address them or go home. The ARMY doesn't even have to give a reason for not accepting Dragonskin. It's very funny how kids (not even in military) think they know what's best just because some fat bitch and a bunch of has beens say so. Gullable Americans. They didn't show the round specifications so it didn't even change my or anyone in the ARMY's opinion. I bet these so called anomolies are very common for Pinnacle, it looks like they can make maybe one vest out of one thousand that is almost as good as Interceptor. Why don't you join the ARMY if you're are so interested in the matter, oh yeah that's right that would make you all see the truth and we wouln't want that now would we. Misinformed pussies, typical of this new anti-war generation.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 10:03 PM

Now, I get your idea here but these companies have fact checkers and depend on their reputations. I guess in your eyes being broadcast on television makes former navy seals, former marine sargeants, and news journalists automatically liars? Fine I guess that is you showing your right to an opinion, but you haven't answered my question about where you got weight information for these systems. I asked more than once "where did you come up with those number." I told you where I got mine where did you get yours?

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:44 PM

You can't always get what you want. I do not know the weight of their armor. However, it is light enough for elite forces to use it. The weight is acceptable, and the vest is supposedly good at distributing weight and FLEXIBLE. That is the KEY!

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:39 PM

1, it is a free country, you can believe whatever you wish about Dragon Skin. When you start believing the boob tube you are in serious trouble. I have provided plenty of questions that have to be answered. If you chose to ignore them then that is on you. If you do not verify everything about the product that this company puts out, with all the credibility problems then you are naive. If you believe that NBC really cares about the troops then you are sadly mistaken. If you want to believe in fairy tales be my guest. These types of tests are easily rigged to make the outcome whatever you wish. It comes down to one thing. Does dragon skin weigh the same or less per square foot than Interceptor? If not then the rest of it is irrelavent. Pinnacle claimed they were better than Interceptor. Now they have to prove it. Make Dragon skin at the same weight and then show us the performance. There is no other answer. You should be demanding that Pinnacle belly up to the bar an compare apples to apples. Weight for weight, otherwise they are liars.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:30 PM

I have looked at dragon skin's website for a year or more now and I don't think it said NIJ certified till now. I think before it said something like it passed independant tests that were even more stringent than NIJ compliant. They have their own ballistic charts. They say level I II or III and then if if has passed an NIJ test it says NIJ I NIJ IIIa or whatever. I don't think you are going to get very far with that law suit. It lists it as level III then you look at their pinnacle ballistic chart and see what that means. Their website says "see our ballistic charts to see what rifle threats it will defeat." Claiming that it can defeat NIJ level threats also isn't saying it is NIJ certified. But then they haven't failed an NIJ test yet have they and there is only level IV to go.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:30 PM

William, today we clearly witnessed that Dragon Skin offers superior protection, flexibility, and maximal area coverage as opposed to Interceptor. Furthermore, the army laid off several experienced, but dragon skin-supporting people. They were not allowed to attend the tests.

The army claims that dragon skin could not withstand 1 or 2 weak bullets in this video. Then, the testers shoot dragon skin with 3 rounds that are much more powerful than what the army claims dragon skin fails to protect.

This is serious business. Clearly, the Army has lied time and time again, and you are in a state of denial. Dragon Skin is superior. Elite troops wear it, generals wear it,and the man who designed interceptor admits that dragon skin is superior. Also, an ex-4 star general says dragon skin is superior. These tests we saw today proves them correct, and you and the army wrong.

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:17 PM

don't worry the authorities have been contacted about these issues. The issues are being raised by people who actually bought Dragon Skin and will have standing in the courts. I do not since I do not own any DS.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:16 PM

txen, the problem with the NIJ III vest is that they have been telling people and marking the vest as NIJ certified for years and only got the NIJ III certification in Dec 06. This is like saying your snake oil is FDA approved when it is not. This is criminal behavior not marketing. Murry has a credibility problem of a huge magnitude. He lists himself as a noted author and inventor in the ballistics field. But no one can produce a book he has authored. I want the troops protected with the best america can produce, but I don't like what I see when it comes to the tactics this company employs.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:13 PM

If you do find fictitious things on pinnacles advertisements couldn't you sue them for false advertising? How come when you think someone is accusing an army offiical of impropriety/conflict of interest you tell everyone to talk to the FBI but when you refer to Pinnacle's website you immdiately call it ficticious without going to the authorities yourself? I mean that general brown said dragon skin failed at ambient temperature and today NBC showed it beat interceptor at more than one bullet type at ambient temperature so if it failed how could interceptor not fail if it stopped more shots than IBA did?

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:11 PM

There are backface deformation listed, as well as penetration or not, and other stats. The full test is available for viewing on nbc's Dateline website.

looks like your time has run out

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:06 PM

William, take some time to go to NBC.com and go to dateline. they uploaded 2 clips from their show just a few hours ago. dragon skin exceeded interceptor by huge margins

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:04 PM

Please show me the stats you see. You have to take the whole vest weight and divide by coverage. I would love to get some independent stats for dragon skin and for interceptor. Interceptor's website doesn't have easy to find weights and dragon skins doesn't list the weights for full torso coverage like the army asked for. Order one of each and put it on the scale right? I was going on the wikipedia entry for interceptor and then Neal's rebuttle. OK as for Neal his website said that his vest was as good as NIJ III and everyone freaked and said it isn't NIJ III then two months later it gets added to the NIJ III compliance list. So I wouldn't say everything he says is BS.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 08:53 PM

Harry, All of this would be more credible if Dragon Skin is shown in public to actually meet the governments weight requirements. I am a millionaire would please cash a check for me. What? not going to take my word on it? If they are going to do a video why not show the darn thing on a scale too. They continue to dance around this issue.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 08:50 PM

I do not know what all is included in total vest weights (collar,groin, arms) but I do know what the ballistic protection weighs since I have read the specifications.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 08:43 PM

The Backface Deformation is significantly less on Dragon Skin, Dragon Skin withstands a bullet that is above what the Army requires an E-SAPI plate to withstand.

Guys look into this deeply. Read the entire report. This just came out an hour ago after Dateline aired on NBC.

Posted by: Harry the Harrier at May 20, 2007 08:38 PM

quoting Pinnacle's ficticious specifications off their website has gotten boring. Their armor weighs more per square foot than the interceptor does. Dragon Skin does not meet the weight specification set forth by the government for body armor. If you go order a new car in blue, and a yellow one shows up are you going to buy it? This is the number one problem with Dragon Skin. Pinnacle has had plenty of time to make a set of Dragon Skin that conforms to the weight specification for a set of body armor. They evidently cannot make Dragon Skin work at the same weight per square foot. Interceptor can certainly be more robust in performance if they increase the weight/thickness of the plates. Let me put it another way. You have a bikini in size 2, and you advertise for any girl who can fit in it can have it for free. Then this big fat chick keeps showing up claiming she can fit in it, but the test is not fair, because you want to see her actually put it on for the world to see. The see puts on a bigger one stands across the street and calls the local tv station and claims you don't play fair.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 08:38 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/

Booya

Dragon Skin outperforms Interceptor by huge margins

Posted by: Harry the Harrier at May 20, 2007 08:37 PM

Can you show me how you got those numbers for the weight per protected area? If you take 24 pounds and divide by 2.25 square feet you get 10.666. Dragon skin weighing 33.15 pounds with 3.4 square feet of coverage is 9.75. our numbers are off of these by Neal towards the bottom there is a chart http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=22

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 08:29 PM

But they add the side plates that adds weight but they get more coverage and if you watched NBC's Dateline today you saw the interceptor fail two times where the Dragon Skin kept stopping penetrations. So there you see that the army already choses heavier just by adding side plates to get more coverage then you see that the coverage of a dragon skin is better at ambient temperature in that it stops a 6th bullet where the interceptor is defeated. So yeah price and weight are issues but so is blocking rifle bullets.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 08:13 PM

The SOV-3000™ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed. The SOV-3000™ is manufactured with a ceramic composite.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 08:10 PM

The combined areal density for hard and soft armor is 7.4 + 1.1 lbs per square foot or 8.5 lbs, Dragon Skin is 10.9 lbs per square foot. That is 2.4 lbs per square foot heavier than interceptor. So how is some thing that is 20% heavier better? I say make the Dragon Skin areal density equal to Interceptor and then see which one is better. It can't be done. This like saying my F350 diesel is better than your Toyota Tocoma, because I can carry more payload and tow a bigger boat. Ok, Make the Ford get the same gas mileage, and weigh the same. All of a sudden, there are no more bragging rights. Get the picture?

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 08:03 PM

The enhanced sapi is heavier than that but if you compared for comparable coverages it doesn't seem like it would be far off

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 07:59 PM

The areal density for the hard armor is 7.4 lbs per square foot. A medium plate is .75 square feet, so it weighs 5.5 lbs each. That is 11 lbs. Each side plate is 2.46 lbs that makes 5 lbs. So you have 16 lbs of hard armor plus the weight of the soft armor.The SOV 2000 is heavier than the interceptor, the SOv 3000 is a lot heavier.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 07:49 PM

Unless the plates are 10.9 and 7.1 together, could be? 18 for the plates and 8.4 for the total of 26.4 and the medium dragon skin weighs 33. Then with coverage issues 3.4 sq ft for dragon skin and 2.25 square feet for interceptor mediums. But that is again full torso coverage dragon skin. There are other coverage options but who wants to go down in coverage?

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 07:46 PM

No I don't think I did since you have two sides and a front and a back. 10.9 (front) plus 10.9 (back) plus 7.1 (left side) plus 7.1 (right side) plus 8.4 (vest) 44.4

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 07:36 PM

recheck your math. I think you doubled the weight of the hard armor.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 07:22 PM

ESAPI plates weigh 10.9lbs side-sapi plates weigh 7.1lbs and the vest weighs 8.4 pounds. You have two of each s-sapi and e-sapi plates for 36 pounds and then the vest makes it 44.4 pounds not counting throat and groin protection. According to this if you want the "full torso protection" wich is what that army asked to test http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=22 the dragon skin large weighs just under 41 pounds.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 07:11 PM

It covers like 30 percent more and weighs like .5 pound more for comparable sizes in the weight range of 30-32 pounds. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9670&page=3 at the bottom of that page Karl Masters states in a post that he is the product manager for Interceptor body armor and that he is charged with testing dragon skin for the army.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 06:49 PM

If Dragon Skin has such superior performance, why can't they make it lighter than Interceptor? Or at least the same weight? Because it can't be done.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 06:40 PM

NBC just did ambient temperature tests that show the dragon skin taking hits above and beyond interceptor. Interceptor failed where dragon skin kept taking hits and stopping penetrations. Now just get the adhesive right or even weave it together with kevlar thread or put each "scale" in it's own pouch and we will all agree it is a better system right? Well Neal says he has corrected the adhesive problem, test it again.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 06:36 PM

Sean, your so called IBA inventor/designer is a fraud. He is a Marine officer. Please explain how he became the chief designer for the "Army"? Just like your Doctor who tries to pawn himself off as having credibility in the trauma arena, when he is actually a friggin "Dentist". There seems to be a trend here when it comes to anyone associated with Pinnacle, where there is the perception of legitimacy, but once you look beneath the surface you find out that it is as fake as your grenade. Your so called M67 Frag grenade is in fact an M69 Training Grenade, so you continue the lies. You guys are as un-American you can get, I hope the lord forgives you for your lies to our troops. I am flabbergasted that you guys will sell your souls for the almighty dollar.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 06:28 PM

Ok, you guys are posting too closely. I believe that you are either friends, which in that case I don't care, or you're the same person, which I don't care either. Both of you are wrong. The grenade was an m67 Fragmentation grenade. The vests are level III cert. and will be level IV soon. Tonight on Dateline NBC, you will witness the results of the side-by-side test conducted by MSNBC, showing the interceptor's inferiority. Atop that, the chief designer of interceptor has admitted his armor is crap compared to Dragon Skin, as well as many servicemen and women. William you are living a lie and someone will have to shoot your bubble so you can come back to reality. In that case, I suggest you buy a Dragon Skin to protect your bubble. An IBA will fail your purpose miserably.

Posted by: Sean at May 20, 2007 05:34 PM

Sean, now you try to come off as an intellectual? LOL! Ok since you want to use cliche's try this one:

Caveat Emptor "Buyer beware" and "If it looks to good to be true, then it probably is not"

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 05:25 PM

William, don't listen to the mental midgets, keep up the good work informing everyone about the fantasy they call Dragon Skin. I looked at the other thread with the xrays, you are right, this crap falls apart. The fake hand grenade was a fraud too! These guys are criminals. I hope the government goes after them. I can't beleive how stupid some of these people can be after there is a logical explanation put forth to explain the test requirements and how much this stuff weighs. William is right!

Posted by: Big D. at May 20, 2007 05:20 PM

William why are you still here? You should really go somewhere else.

"Adieu, all's vanity.
Argue with an idiot, and he will just bring you down to his level and beat you there."

Don't argue with William. If he doesn't want to wear Dragon Skin, then he can bleed from a upper-chest or shoulderblade OR gut OR lower back OR obliques wound inflicted by some child wielding an AK-47.

Posted by: Sean at May 20, 2007 04:50 PM

Yeah Trey! That's how to insult someone, and that's also how to make yourself look like the idiot you are!

Posted by: Corey at May 20, 2007 04:39 PM

I find it extremely offensive that you cunts continue to FUCK BITCH FAG use my name because you're too un-American and dont have PENIS FUCK ASS the balls to talk under your own screen HO CUNT name.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 04:39 PM

Those damned IBA nutjobs! I didn't expect those nuts who think IBA > Dragon Skin to be this bad!

Posted by: D. Trey at May 20, 2007 04:37 PM

FUCK FAGGET BITCH SLUT PUSSY ASSHOLE HO ASSWIPE DICKWAD MOTHERFUCK ASS GAY LESBIAN WHORE CUNT DOUCHE FAG

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 04:36 PM

Shut up kid. I watched the NBC report, and I'm convinced that:

A. The Army is lying. They lied many times in that report if you would listen the general lied about the troops not being able to wear it (CIA, Generals Bodyguard wore it..)

B. The Dragon Skin is better than Interceptor (The Chief Desigfner of Interceptor admitted it and the independent testing will reveal that it is better)

C. William and Trey are working together like scumbags to downplay this media report because they will lose their jobs soon.

and @ Trey

Shut up you potty-mouth. Do you really kiss your mother with that mouth?

and @ William

Get a real job

Posted by: Irving at May 20, 2007 02:00 PM

To think that the media is concerned is laughable at best. They do nothing to help soldiers morale. They haven't said anything positive since the war began. NBC is more like America's Al Jazeera affiliate. Dragonskin did not pass the most crutial of tests. Zero is the key number of penetrations and Dragonskin did not meet the requirement so for anyone to say the ARMY is lying just check the facts at www.armytimes.com. If you read it and it offends you sorry, but Dragonskin is inferrior to Interceptor. And to anyone who would wear it over Interceptor, you are asking for a quick exit from life. And you aren't fit for the ARMY anyway. Any rebuttals to this are made by queers. You are closeted fags and you'd probably like to suck the dick of Dragonskin if it had one. BITCHES IN DENIAL, SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE ON YOUR PERIODS. NBC IS IN THE HABIT OF PAYING PEOPLE FOR THEIR TIME AND WHOEVER PAYS MORE GETS THE STORY SWAYED IN THEIR DIRECTION. IF YOU BELEIEVE WHAT YOU SEE ON TV YOU AIN'T IN THE MILITARY ANYWAY SO YOUR OPINION IS EQUAL TO LESS THAN SHIT. FAGGETS FAGGETS FAGGETS

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 01:52 PM

To think that the media is concerned is laughable at best. They do nothing to help soldiers morale. They haven't said anything positive since the war began. NBC is more like America's Al Jazeera affiliate. Dragonskin did not pass the most crutial of tests. Zero is the key number of penetrations and Dragonskin did not meet the requirement so for anyone to say the ARMY is lying just check the facts at www.armytimes.com. If you read it and it offends you sorry, but Dragonskin is inferrior to Interceptor. And to anyone who would wear it over Interceptor, you are asking for a quick exit from life. And you aren't fit for the ARMY anyway. Any rebuttals to this are made by queers. You are closeted fags and you'd probably like to suck the dick of Dragonskin if it had one. BITCHES IN DENIAL, SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE ON YOUR PERIODS.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 01:45 PM

TJ the point that escaped you about Zylon is that Zylon vests pasted NIJ testing, was insured by insurance companies and manufactured by all the leading armor companies, and still the vests failed after all the scrutiny that was deemed acceptable for the times. Now the NIJ has had to rewrite the playbook to try and help better insure that our men and women in blue get products that reflect the environmental conditions on the job. This did not happen before. The new protocols will include environmental testing and accelerated aging. I understand that the test will require heating and tumbling of the vest to 150-160 degrees.

Now that you have been told of the manufacturing defect, I would encourage you to inspect you vests for early failure. I have friend who has ten of the DS vests, and three of them have dislodged discs. Pinnacle knew about this defect a year ago and has not announced a recall. I would call them since you have 28 of them and you guys get called out on a regular basis.

I will overlook your insults.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 01:35 PM

HAHAHAHA BRANDON THESE GUYS ARE IDIOTS! WILLIAM TREY ARE FUNNY! SOOO STUPID HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOL WOW.

Posted by: PO0ostal Serv1c3 at May 20, 2007 01:28 PM

Please, everybody tune in today to NBC dateline evening show. You know that these morons will continue to whine and bitch about Dragon Skin's failure (after being literally melted by the Army) even though Pinnacle has upgraded Dragon Skin with a tougher and badder adhesive material from 3M Inc.

On Dateline, they test Dragon Skin SOV-3000, level IV. There you go, William. You will witness those level IV rounds being defeated by Dragon Skin for once, and I am sure you will cook up another pointless and grossly out-of-context arguement which none of us will take seriously because you're an idiot. Have a nice day.

Posted by: Parker at May 20, 2007 01:22 PM

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003504.html

I find it extremely odd that one shot from an AM2 round would decimate an entire scale or row of scales. These were obviously taken after the Army intentionally melted the adhesive to weaken the vest. No quesiton there, you idiots William and Trey. {Pinnacle now has a new adhesive, so get over it.

Posted by: Parker at May 20, 2007 01:19 PM

To That Loaf I pinched again, William…

Let us dissect your idiocy.

Q: OK Cop Boy:

A: Hardly your cop boy you little bitch. I bet you have never even had to squeeze a trigger or had a guy squeeze a trigger at you. The only thing you have squeezed is your boyfriend’s dick, in your ass.

Q: Now, why would an insurance company insure a company that makes an inferior product? Remember Zylon? Are you really a cop?

A: Yes I have heard of Zylon. If you had any knowledge of the body armor industry at all, you will also know that Pinnacle Armor never once made a vest with Zylon.

Q: We have had Dragon Skin for the last year and a half. This means that you bought Dragon Skin NIJ Level III one year before they actually received their NIJ rating. I would say that you did not look at the NIJ database to ensure that you were buying a compliant armor. This means that "you" are liable for the lives of your fellow officers. This also means that Pinnacle sold you a vest marked as NIJ approved when in fact it was not. If they lied about that, you had better check to make sure they actually have an insurance policy. In the wake of the Second Chance Armor Company and Zylon failure liability insurance is astronomical, can Pinnacle actually afford it?

A: Our team of 28 guys voted for the Dragon Skin SOV 2000 Tactical Side Entry vest, 27/28. You can’t blame the guy who voted against it, as his brother in law was the rep for MSA Paraclete.

As for liability of my officers lives? Hardly. I would have been liable if we had chosen one of the other ceramic plate vests.

In our live demo shoot, every single ceramic plate fractured after two shots of the M80 Ball.

In comparison, the Dragon Skin SOV 2000, LEVEL III, withstood the 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54, 7.62 x 63, .308 and 30.06. Backface deformation was non-existent on the Dragon Skin SOV 2000 LEVEL III Vest.

Plus with the 10x12 ceramic plates, in the other manufacturers vest, you have the equivalent of a piece of ceramic on your chest and back the size of standard Sports Illustrated magazine.

With the configuration we purchased from Pinnacle Armor, (Front Side Extensions, Upper Respiratory), (Standard Back, Side Extensions) vest we purchased from Pinnacle Armor, we get over 130% more LEVEL III rifle defeating coverage than the 10x12 plates would have provided.

Not only that, but the vest in a typical size large weights only 24lbs.

The Dragon Skin Vests costs more sure (About 400.00 dollars more per vest), but you know what William, our officers are protected, unlike the unprotected sex you most likely practice with your cornhole butt buddy.

Q: Has your butt tightened up yet there "slick"?

A: No William my butt hasn’t tightened up yet this morning, simply because I haven’t had to go pinch a William off in the shitter yet.

So there little Willie, why don’t you take your lying, pathetic waste of a human embryo, queer fudge packing self, who is the sheer definition of idiocy, lunacy, and self righteousness, who is in a deep self state of denial, and put on one of your sacred Army Interceptor vests and go walk down the heart of Fallujah, and tell me how your vest works after the second time you take a round center mass.

Well I am off to Range Qualifying. Something William has probably never done.

Posted by: TJ at May 20, 2007 01:12 PM

Hey, check out this link, it has pictures of the X-rays of the vests from the Army's tests and it is posted on this forum. LOL

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003504.html

Now that the Army has been compelled to reveal sensitive information about the vests that our soldiers wear, let's pray that there is no information that the terrorists can exploit to try an kill our troops. I hope Murry Neal and all of you anti-establishemnt writers are happy. If I had the ability I would have you arrested for treason.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 12:37 PM

The Army's 30 SOV 3000 DS vests were manufactured in May 06. With the bad glue. And they failed to maintain their ballistic integrity after 6 hours at high temp. BEFORE any rounds were shot at the vest in the high temp test it had already failed.

If you have a DS made before 19 May 2006, you have the bad glue.

Murray admits this in the Dragon Skin thread on Lightfighter Tactical Forums, where he calls the glue issue "an anomaly". Right. Link:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums?s=7336015661&ORIGINAL_REFERRER_URL=http%3
A%2F%2Flightfighter.net%2Feve%2Fforums

If you have an NIJ Certified Type III DS SOV 2000 manufactured before 20 Dec 06, the date of the NIJ Compliance Letter for DS Type III NIJ certification, then you have a fraudulently NIJ certified SOV 2000 Dragon Skin. This company's demonstrated lack of business ethics makes it unlikely that DOD will ever want to do any business with this company.

Has anyone seen a recall on those Dragon Skin vests yet? What Pinnacle calls an anomoly, the courts I am sure will call a product defect. This means that all the vests that Pinnacle produced prior to changing the glue need to be recalled and replaced. You better get in line quick before the money runs out.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 10:01 AM

Hello everybody, once again you all have failed to see the problems with dragonskin. It did not pass the most crucial of the tests that the Interceptor passed. It could not stop the armor penetrating rounds that are used by our enemy. The Interceptor did pass and therefore we use what has the stopping power. I wish Dragonskin could live up to their claims but it doesn't look like the flexible system is evolved enough for now. Keep whining "The Donald" because it will never change the truth. I would have to say that the manner of releasing the truth wasn't done to your liking but it's not the Army's obligation to release this at all anyways. Just because NBC does a story on Dragonskin does not mean that it will replace Interceptor. The proof is in the testing and if you want to be a lunkhead and denie it then that is your problem. NBC has been critical of everything war related for so long that it's easier to say that they are Al Jazeera than it is to say that they are a concerned news group. Once and for all visit www.armytimes.com for the truth. Even a mere soldier like me can see that Dragonskin would have costed lives Retard. And yes I use profanity, hell I exude profanity when little cunts like yall want to beleive the media over the military. If you think Dragonskin is better than you are sadly mistaken and you are idiots. It sounds like you guys eat up everything you hear and put a fact stamp on it. Too bad you're not involved in the military because you'd learn some respect and discipline instead of posing as me and making comments that are unworthy of even insurgents. I get it, you think soldiers are misinformed and gullable like you, well all servicemen know their equipment works no matter what the media wants us to think. And further it's pretty easy to say what you think is best when you're on the outside looking in and have never been in high risk situations that give you the confidence that your armor is going to perform and perform well. I 100% guarantee that NBC will do the story and then just forget about it in a week. They have no concern for soldiers they just see ratings and another chance to ridicule the handling of this war and it's equipment. If they are so concerned then why haven't they done stories on our armored vehicles? They don't give a flying fuck about the foot soldiers or they would have already done multiple stories about the vehicle issues and those are more vital than a vest that can't pass the most of basic tests that the Interceptor can. And once again the number they are looking for is zero because that's the number of penetrations Interceptor acquired during testing. Dragonskin failed miserably on that crucial test and therefore it would be a step backwards in armor technology.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 09:01 AM

OK Cop Boy,

Now, why would an insurnace company insure a company that makes an inferior product? Remember Zylon? Are you really a cop?

We have had Dragon Skin for the last year and a half. This means that you bought Dragon Skin NIJ Level III one year before they actually received their NIJ rating. I would say that you did not look at the NIJ database to ensure that you were buying a compliant armor. This means that "you" are liable for the lives of your fellow officers. This also means that Pinnacle sold you a vest marked as NIJ approved when in fact it was not. If they lied about that, you had better check to make sure they actually have an insurance policy. In the wake of the Second Chance armor company and Zylon failure liability insurance is astronomical, can Pinnacle actually afford it?

Has your butt tightened up yet there "slick"?

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 02:03 AM

Hey Barnie Fife, did it ever occur to you that you are probably the only swat team in the country that uses level III instead of level IV protection? How about posting your department smart ass, or is this more of Pinnacles smoke and mirrors. You guys have to be the dumbest department in the country. Wait, let me guess, you are the team leader? Do the other guys get to decide whether they can wear another armor or do they "have" to wear what is issued?

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 01:50 AM

Quote Donald Rumsfeld,

"As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want"

William, Cory, Jared, Trey D., and associates are unprofessional, unimportant, and unethical. Keep wasting your calories typing, because it will never change the truth.

Remember,

"As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want"

-The Donald

Posted by: The Donald at May 20, 2007 01:40 AM

To the Loaf I pinched earlier...Willaim

Our agency, has the LEVEL III NIJ CERTIFIED Rifle Defeating Body Armor.

Pinnacle Armor has a 15 million dollar per occurrance insurance policy if the vest fails.

Now, why would an insurnace company insure a company that makes an inferior product?

I have been a SWAT officer and now SWAT SGT since 1994. We have had Dragon Skin for the last year and a half.

At our range demo, we requested 5 of the top tactical vest vendors to show up.

At the shoot, all the vendors had specifc instructions in how they wanted their vest shot.
No two shots, within two inches, and no shots within three inches of the side of the ceramic plates.

When we asked Pinnacle how they wanted their vest shot, their reply was, "Do you tell a bad guy how to shoot you? Shot anyway you want to."

Not only did our agency pick up thier LEVEL III Tactical Vests, but our agency picked up their patrol vests, in their LEVEL IIIA.

So you freaking douche bag, go blow your freaking hot air, up somebody else's ass, and quit blowing your hot air in this forum.

Your lies, your fallacies, your half truths and partial stories are coming down around your ankles, like your pants do, when your cornhole buddy snuggles up to you at night.

Posted by: TJ at May 20, 2007 01:31 AM

OK guys, you can throw around the bodyguards and CIA operatives all day. First of all they bought the armor because it had a ficticious NIJ rating stamped on it. That is called fraud. Kind of like bottleing your own snake oil and the saying it is FDA approved. Guess what? It is called jail time. To the smart ass that claims that their SWAT team issues dragon skin please tell me what department so I can tell your buddies that no insurance company will insure their lives if they are wearing non-NIJ approved armor. Just let your city/county attorney know this and see how long you get to wear dragon skin. Swat teams wear NUJ level IV armor and ds (dumb shit, oops, dragon skin) still doesn't have a level IV rating. Man are you stupid. I can't believe you want to give this crap to our troops.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 12:50 AM

I quote this
------------------------------

Oh this guy William...

"13 out of 48 shots were complete penetrations".

Let me tell you somethign about that. Rounds were fired into the upper shoulder portion where the vest straps connecting the front and back portion are located. Those sections are not designed to stop rifle fire. It's like me testing a game, intentionally making it crash, and then telling my friend "oh the game crashed and it sucks, don't get it"

"nobody with credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE,"

General's bodyguard? CIA operatives in high-threat situations? Department of Energy Officials? 9 Generals in Afghanistan? Special Forces security detail? Right, and the people with credibility must be those moneymongers who have no soul.

"The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff"

5000 for a vest that would have saved hundreds of lives? My life is worth more than 5000 dollars, William. I don't know if yours is. (Edit by Retard: I also don't think Trey D., Cory, and Jared's lives are worth more than 5000)
---------------------------------------

Amen Brutha!

Posted by: Retard at May 19, 2007 11:39 PM

It's also about egos and contracts. That's why you wear body armor composed of a single ceramic plate that can withstand one maybe two direct hits from 7.62 before becoming completely useless as opposed to the proven Dragon Skin Armor which is flexible, durable, and practical. As a side note, I saw kick ass documentaries on the Discovery Channel (FutureWeapons), History Channel (Mail Call, Test Lab), various YouTube videos, and Military Channel (Weaponology) about Dragon Skin. Furthermore it will be revealed on NBC tomorrow night that a Dragon Skin SOV-3000 is superior to IBA. What kind of a retard thinks IBA is better than Dragon Skin, bar none? Well, not me.

Posted by: Retard at May 19, 2007 11:35 PM

You guys also use extemely profane language, such as "bitch", "fuck", "fagget" (which is also anti-gay), and "asshole", as well as bringing in the other guy's mom into this. Come on guys, grow up. I didn't think the nuts who thought IBA was better than Dragon Skin were this bad... You all are either disillusioned or disgusting freaks bent on saving business for the army. Don't ever talk about my mother like that, you disgusting vile.

Posted by: Retard at May 19, 2007 11:29 PM

Even a retard like me can see, Dragon Skin would've saved lives. There were a report in 2004 detailing that 80% of marines died from torso wounds would have been saved if their plate was bigger. And, if Dragon Skin was there, they would have been saved. Also, Dragon Skin is flexible. You guys are a lot worse than me. You don't care about the fact that people have died in the interceptor vest because its outdated. Have a nice day douchebags.

Posted by: Retard at May 19, 2007 11:26 PM

dragon skin is better than iba.cry about it

Posted by: Cruise at May 19, 2007 09:49 PM

If only they had released the report earlier the publicity would not have been necessary. It does prove that the vest can't be used and there are more than one reasons for that. Hard armor is the way to go for now and maybe there will be overwhelming advancements for flexible armor in the future. It's funny that no one who is faced with the truth will use a real name. I can't explain why they didn't release this info before now but I do know it is not their obligation. Plus it would and will probably cut off Pinnacle as a reliable company. Thanks for the truth Trey at least someone is right for once.

Posted by: Cory at May 19, 2007 07:58 PM

Hell yeah, that's how you insult someone Trey. This pussy can't handle the truth therefore he thinks he can discredit people by acting like them and saying tihngs that only a fagget would say. I'll once again tell everyone to go to www.armytimes.com and see the reason that dragonskin isn't going to be used anytime soon.

Posted by: Jared at May 19, 2007 05:44 PM

Once again for the truth visit www.armytimes.com.
Just because you can't handle the truth doesn't mean you can stop me from showing real people the truth you bitch. Hey weren't you a product of me fuckin your mom in the ass? Yup thought so. Post in your own name if you think you've got a point that isn't full of shit. I'm an American soldier and you're just a shit particle on the bottom of my boot. So if you think you can discourage me all I have to do is stomp and you're gone. I think I'll call you the fagety asshole from the
planet cum guzzler from now on.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 05:39 PM

I am a loser. Wa Wa Wa

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:39 PM

Whoever is posting in my name should stop and get back to fucking their mother. You are such a pussy that you can't post your own opinions in your own name. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on you piece of un American shit. Shouldn't you be doing your 8th grade homework right now you acne faced fagget. If you saw my stature you would definately shit your panties you pussy. I guarantee you that you wouldn't try to put words in my mouth if we were toe to toe because I'd crush your face into the peanut you call a brain.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:29 PM

I suggest everyone read the rebuttal because it brings up key testing and standards that have to be met that were not made by dragonskin. The armor we are issued, I assure you is the best right now. This is yet another attempt from the media to mind-fuck us but American soldiers can see through the bullshit that these misinformed individuals love to try and make us soldiers beleive. Go to www.armytimes.com type in dragonskin on the sites search engine and read the truth for yourself if you don't beleive me.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:22 PM

Yeah, right. If I'm right, then it was ok for 80 percent of 401 troops in 2004 to die from AK 47 fire in the torso. I'm right alright, yep. Those troops were wearing the best armor possible. I am an idiot.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:15 PM

I did not make the following postings;May 18,2007 2:08 A.M.,May 18,2007 8:47 A.m.,May 18,2007 8:52 A.m, May 19,2007 1:37 A.m. I am however glad to see that the Army times website is singing the truth. Jared it seems like you and me are the only unbiased people on this forum. I would greatly appreciate that people not use my name while posting their views here any further. It's bad enough that people are questioning the ARMY on their testing and I've never seen the Army give out this much info on testing before. This is the only forum I've posted on and I was surprized when I stumbled upon the other forums that have my name on them. I repeat, don't put words in my mouth. Check out the armytimes article and you'll see why Dragon Skin is faulty and will not be used because it is not as good as the armor we already have. I'm on the right side, the Army's side, and that's the bottom line.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 19, 2007 03:05 PM

It is not one-sided shit. Had we fielded dragon skin to the troops, many lives would have been saved. What matters is the vest stops the bullets. If it can withstand a RGO fragmentation grenade (FutureWeaopns), it can withstand the temperatures encountered by troops on the battlefield. Plain and simple. The testers probably doused DS in oil, salt water, and high temperatures because thats the only way they would have a chance at proving that DS "did not meet military standards". Well, What the fuck? Nobody throws oil on you on the battlefield, and when do temperatures reach 160 degrees for 30 minutes? I see the army scrambling to find ways to protect their business interests. Besides, Pinnacle already announced they bought a new adhesive that will withstand 160 degrees.

Posted by: Yes at May 19, 2007 02:39 PM

The rounds did not penetrate the discs. They penetrated soft armor which isn't designed to stop rifle fire. The testing was sabotaged for obvious reasons. Jared that report is intentionally misleading.

NBC already commissioned a side-by-side test and they will show how interceptor failed against dragon skin. The army's testing results are classified, the people in charge of the testing are affiliated with Interceptor's manufacturer, and they let only 2 witnesses that were from pinnacle to go. Both witnesses stated that the penetrations were from rounds to the shoulder straps which are NOT for rifle fire, and that the vests did not fail.

Posted by: No at May 19, 2007 02:35 PM

I hate to say this but my opinion has changed on dragonskin. I found the following info on the army times website at www.armytimes.com.

The vests were exposed to temperatures ranging from minus 60 degrees to 160 degrees fahrenheit, and were immersed in diesel fuel, oil and salt water for extended periods of time. After each of these exposures, testers shot the vests with armor-piercing ammunition, the most lethal small arms threat on the battlefield.

Four out of eight vests tested failed after suffering 13 first or second shot complete penetrations with 7.62x63mm. APM2 Armor Piercing ammunition, Masters said.

"The number we are looking for here is zero," Masters said. "That's what we are fielding to soldiers is plates that meet these requirements for zero penetrations. Everybody who has fielded body armor to soldiers must go through and pass this protocol."

The dragonskin vests also "suffered catostrophic failure" during the Army's extreme temperature tests, which caused the adhesive that holds the ceramics disks together to deteriorate, Masters said. The result was the disks slid to the lower portion of the panel, exposing the spine, vital organs and critical blood vessels to lesser ballistic threats, Masters said.

"We get the gap issue between plates, which is why we continue to look at these armors," Masters said. "We are going to continue to try to evolve because our users are asking us for lighter and flexible armor."

You can read the whole ARMY rebuttal to the NBC special at http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/05/Army_dragonskin_070528web/ or it's a lot easier just to use their websites search thing just type in dragonskin at the top of the site and read the stuff that should be on the news instead of this one sided shit.

Posted by: Jared at May 19, 2007 02:27 PM

Man do I feel better now that I just took a big dump named William and flushed it.

Look everybody. It is obvious that William, has a lot to loose when Dragon Skin is the new body armor issued to the Military. William for all we know could be General Sorenson, Karl Masters, Alan Bain, or any number of Armor Holdings Board of Directors, who stand to loose their ass, once Congress stars hearings on this issue.

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes, when Generals loose stars, when board of directors get fined, and go to jail.

So chances are, since William is crying till he is blue in the face about a bunch of bullshit lies, which are being unraveled before America's eyes, he is some way apart of the "Interceptor" ring of liars.

Now, having served in the Marines, and now a SWAT SGT for a very large police department, which by the way has Dragon Skin as our issued armor, I can tell you that Dragon Skin runs circles around anything on the market.

Oh, man breakfast must have not set too well. I think it is time to go pinch another William off.

Posted by: TJ at May 19, 2007 01:34 PM

Dragonskin is better, significantly better. To have those words come from the designer of Interceptor is all I needed to hear to know that I've been right all along. I know I want better armor and I will not be denied. Thanks Soldiers For The Truth. Without you the thoughts of soldiers everywhere wouldn't be heard near enough. I can't speak for any soldier but myself so all I have to say is that Dragonskin is better so let's put it to use.

Posted by: God Willing at May 19, 2007 01:12 PM

Amen

Posted by: God Willing at May 19, 2007 12:58 PM

Oh this guy William...

"13 out of 48 shots were complete penetrations".

Let me tell you somethign about that. Rounds were fired into the upper shoulder portion where the vest straps connecting the front and back portion are located. Those sections are not designed to stop rifle fire. It's like me testing a game, intentionally making it crash, and then telling my friend "oh the game crashed and it sucks, don't get it"

"nobody with credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE,"

General's bodyguard? CIA operatives in high-threat situations? Department of Energy Officials? 9 Generals in Afghanistan? Special Forces security detail? Right, and the people with credibility must be those moneymongers who have no soul.

"The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff"

5000 for a vest that would have saved hundreds of lives? My life is worth more than 5000 dollars, William. I don't know if yours is.

Posted by: Unknown at May 19, 2007 12:57 PM

The Dragonskin is definately getting it's deserved respect now. No more of this public bashing while the armor's hands are tied behind it's back. The military is going to accept that Dragonskin is better.

Posted by: Rick at May 19, 2007 11:15 AM

William is a retard. Once again he goes against the experts who would not say the armor was better if it was not. You are not and never will be an expert William. Oh wait you already are in another field of expertise, you eat all of the shit the government feeds you and beleive it. You suck the republican's dicks you douchebag.

Posted by: Albert at May 19, 2007 11:12 AM

Fuck you William. You are the liar. Still in denial. That's how all closeted homos are.

Posted by: Everyone at May 19, 2007 11:07 AM

Fuck you William. You are the liar.

Posted by: Everyone at May 19, 2007 11:06 AM

Fuck you William.

Posted by: Everyone at May 19, 2007 11:05 AM

Hey Trey, I find it funny that everything about Dragon Skin is "Secret" but they claimed that the CIA tested and bought DS for their operatives. I am sure that they just revealed some confidential information about capabilities that is at least an OPSEC violation. I wonder how happy they are about that. Pinnacle is a bunch of money grubbers, that is the ONLY REASON they are doing all this $$$$$$$$$$. There are in fact several companies working on flexible armor, this research has been going on for years. Everytime you hear about things like liquid armor that is part of the government, university research, and industry efforts to perfect flexible armor. however they all have one common problem, the design requires overlapping joints which automatically make the armor HEAVIER by 20 to 40 percent. Liquid armor is a concept that does not require overlapping joints. So there are thousands of people working a real solution to the weight problem. No one has found it yet. Least of all Murray Neal the circus tent ring leader! He is marketing a myth. Using sensationalism, lies and deceit. This is a farce being perpertrated upon scared soldiers and their families by someone making a profit. The price of Dragon Skin by industry standards is rediculous and an outright ripoff. In the last 10 years no one with any credibility has bought Dragon Skin, no one WORLD WIDE, even the Israelis didn't look at it more than once. So now all of a sudden the ARMY has a conspiracy to deny Dragon Skin. Well I don't buy it, and neither does anyone with any experience in the ballistics field. Pinnacle is the laughing stock of the industry. They are taking advantage of ignorant and naive people and are selling the concept of better armor. Pinnacle has a long way to actually having an armor system that can meet military requirements. Murray Neal knows this and is trying to force the Army to pay to perfect his armor system, since they lack the experience and expertise to do so. He needs to hire the right staff and continue development, when and if they get it right, someone credible may take them seriously.

Posted by: William at May 19, 2007 10:33 AM

This kicks ass. I've been waiting for this for along time. Now that it's finally happening all the haters can eat their hearts out-shit them out and eat them agaian. Fah-Q William. The coverage is amazing the quantity is amazing and William is a cockeater.

Posted by: Trey and Erica at May 19, 2007 01:37 AM

Hey, you mean that Downing is calling out the Army and U.S. Socom? He is indicting both organizations and himself. This is going to be good. LOL

Posted by: Dragon Slayer at May 18, 2007 07:20 PM

William, are you saying that General Downing did not buy Dragon Skin when he was the Commander of Special Operations? I think you have brought up a good point. Lets see, he thinks it is the best armor, but he didn't buy it when he was the commander? I smell a rat too.

Posted by: Big D. at May 18, 2007 07:15 PM

This is far from over. The truth will come out. I hope that Pinnacle enjoys their 15 minutes of fame. They make commercial product which is unsuitable for the military environment. I am sure that once the real truth comes out about Dragon Skin's shoddy construction, it will be recognized for the over hyped garbage that it really is. The supposed designer of the Interceptor is a liar. The Interceptor was and is an "Army" program, which the Marine Corps signed on to once production began. So how the hell does a Marine Colonel get on the design team? He is just another paid shill for Pinnacle, along with the other hired lackey Wayne Downing. Is Downing on Pinnacle's board of Directors or what? If Dragon Skin is so good, how come SOCOM didn't buy it when Downing was the Commander and 4 star general? Guess what? He didn't buy for the troops because it was a piece of shit then too. Now he is paid to have the opinion he now has. What a whore.

Posted by: William at May 18, 2007 07:11 PM

Yeeehaw!

Posted by: Petah at May 18, 2007 04:09 PM

Oh this is going to be good!

Poor William, Alan Bain and Karl Masters are not going to be sleeping too good.

Just in case you might be interested, NBC has released the following dates for airing parts of this lengthy report:

NBC Schedule:

Thursday, May 17th: Evening News (Already aired)

Friday, May 18th: The Today Show (Already aired)

Sunday, May 20th: NBC Dateline

Monday, May 21st: The Today Show

Tuesday, May 22nd: Evening News

Also, for those that don't know, there are two other videos up on the NBC NEWS website that didn't air last night.

Sleep well William, errr Alan, errr, Karl, as all your lies are exposed right before your eyes. You guys have absolutely ZERO credibility!

It must feel pretty damn good, knowing your opinion, and credibility is worth less than the used toilet paper I flush down the shitter everday.

Posted by: TJ at May 18, 2007 02:06 PM

I too thought the ARMY and Marines would accept this armor. It turns out I was very wrong. Not only do they not want it they ignore public opinion such as our president has done so many times.

Posted by: Truth at May 18, 2007 01:59 PM

I first saw Dragon Skin on Future Weapons on the Discovery Channel. My thoughts were WOW! I'll bet the Army and Marines will be all over this product. Not only did it demonstrate superior stopping power and flexibility, but potentiallly could provide additional armor beyond just the upper torso.

I am very disheartened to now learn of the problems this product has encountered being accepted into our armed services. Unfortunately this tends to confirm that war is more about the business of continuing business rather than being more about the absolute safety of our warriors.

WHAT A SHAME - Shame on the Military Beauracracy and shame on the congress that would allow this to happen.

Posted by: Steven Tune at May 18, 2007 12:10 PM

That's what I was thinking Big D. This would never have even been a story if it envovled veterans fighting for better armor for today's soldiers. It's horseshit, the same type of shit happened in Vietnam. The rifle situation was horrible and yet nobody gave a shit until politics came running to a fake rescue that took three or four years to phase out all of the older of the M-16's. Thousands died when their rifles jammed in battle. This type of shit usually sorts it's self out but there are usually mass casualties. The news organizations don't care what our soldier's want or need they just want the publicity of acting like it.

Posted by: ChopTop at May 18, 2007 12:05 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor
If you still believe that Dragon Skin is a fake. Check Wiki's references.

Posted by: Carde at May 18, 2007 10:53 AM

I think jon boy is really William he just can't argue anymore because the story has hit the mainstream media. And as a matter of fact it is because he wants to take the attention off his shity statements and try to question my military career instead of admitting that he has been wrong for so long. What a bitch.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 08:52 AM

The issue is cost and that is very disturbing. You would think they'd shell out whatever it took to get these vests but I still think we need a lot more than just vests. The MRAP vehicles are in high demand and low availability right now and I just wish the NBC special had been about that instead, since a vest won't help much if an IED blows your whole damn vehicle up. I hope we get all we need soon but it don't look promising so far. It's easy to become Staff Sgt. if you are a college graduate and want a career in the military it's easy to become whatever you want. I was also in the ROTC program before college so that was another jump start for me. Pretty much of career???????? No offense jon boy but are you possibly chinese or japanese? What the hell does pretty much of career.... mean?

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 08:47 AM

This is really a non-partisan issue. Its not about the liberals trying to stick it to the current administration, (by the way I am not too fond of liberals) In any case the administrations job is not to test and seek out better military equipment, that job belongs to certain individuals in the Army, and obviously a few individuals in the Army failed miserably. The main issue here is greed. Someone is trying to protect existing military contracts. I really think other armor companies are going to shitting their pants on sunday when this full report comes out. I too am skeptical of the media, but I have been following this issue for a while and NBC is revealing this controversy for what it really is.

Posted by: patriot at May 18, 2007 08:45 AM

hey guys, Karl Masters and James Zheng are civil servants, that means they are lowly government workers with a job to do. The competitive process of procurement is heavily documented as well as the testing process. I am sure that there are some good reasons why Dragon Skin never competed for military contracts before this controversy, and I think it is because there are some issues with armor that Pinnacle is not making public. I am suspicious because they have not been able to sell this armor to any government departments whether that is police, or the military. I do not trust the media, they have many reasons for stirring this up, RATINGS is one reason and they other is NBC will do anything that attacks the current administration. Anytime the media and the liberals become concerned about the troops it is purely for polictical reasons. I retired from the Army and we had all kinds of shortages and equipment problems when I was in the military. Look at how veterans have gotten treated all these years and where is the"media" attention? They do not care one iota about any of us, but if they can use one of our problems as a sledge hammer to progress "their" liberal agenda, they suddenly become a crusader on our behalf. Their "only" objective is to embarrass the government, they really don't give a shit about us. I don't know anything about either armor system, but I do know that equipment that can't pass testing will never be bought.

I want the best equipment for our troops too, but it must be safe. I have yet to see or hear about any vest failures. No body armor covers all of you, so you only have partial protection no matter who makes the armor or what design it is.

Posted by: Big D. at May 18, 2007 07:56 AM

Trey D. you joined Army in 2004 and now you are staff sgt? Pretty much of career...

Posted by: john boy at May 18, 2007 03:14 AM

I'm so pissed that my platoon and all soldiers aren't getting the best there is. I hope we get Dragonskin soon. I am already depressed enough as it is and to have two dipshits totally throw caution to the all too lethal wind is making me fucking hostile. I have talked with my supperiors and they are being bombarded with questions from their soldiers as am I. I can't describe the disgust I'm feeling. God bless the men who died wearing Interceptor, they had faith in their armor and now my men aren't so faithfull. This will certainly bring about changes in our armor and my questions to Karl Masters and James Zheng are as follows. Do you realize the pain and death you have allowed to undermine our soldiers? What the fuck gives you the right to do this type of shit? Your eyes may never see this but I hope you are happy. You will forever live in the shadows of the many soldiers that died and you will be haunted eternally for your misconduct and greed.
I'd like to say to all my soldiers, stick in there and don't let this get to you. We are fighting here at home as well and God willing we will prevail. For nothing can stop us now. It will all sort it's self out and we'll come out stronger on the other side. To anyone who is as pissed as I am I ask, even if you're not religous, even if you can't possibly beleive there is a God in a time like this, I ask that you pray for our servicemen and women and keep fighting for the truth.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 18, 2007 02:08 AM

Amen to that!

William I'm not even going to bother with a low-life, hollow, and irresponsible individual like you. You clearly don't care about our troops, and they die because of idiots like you in the military who lack morals and testicular fortitude. You are the crap that I wipe from my ass hole every day. Have a nice day.

Posted by: r at May 18, 2007 02:04 AM

William, errr, Alan Bain, errrr, Karl Masters....You are a douche bag!

There is no way you can defend the Army Interceptor vest as the better vest, when the freaking designer of the Interceptor vest himself on network, national TV said Dragon Skin is a far superior vest.

Just FYI, NBC has enough footage to run at least a 9 part series on this stuff. It will be really hard for the ARMY to run, duck and hide for 9 weeks on this issue.

Face it William. Your father should have dumped his wad in the toilet instead of your mother, because as evident of your dads bad seed, you are a moron and the world has enough of those already!

Posted by: TJ at May 18, 2007 12:41 AM

Cost is NO ISSUE at all. 1 million troops, timse 5000 per vest, times maybe 4000 per vest because of such a huge contract.

4 billion dollars ,5 billion at most. That's small compared to what the moneymongers save by giving out boys outdated gear.

Posted by: Name at May 18, 2007 12:38 AM

And wreckless endangerment, and profiteering, and failure to carry out their duty (to get the best protective vests to our troops), and for lying, and as a result of their actions, hundreds of troops died from wearing interceptor vest.

Posted by: Name at May 18, 2007 12:36 AM

Disgusting.
"William", Gen. Mark Brown, James Zheng, Karl MAsters, and other guilty parties should be tried for treason.

Posted by: Name at May 18, 2007 12:35 AM

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=AA781DC8-2F50-4C45-A13D-477ECC539A1A&t=s3&f=06/64&p=hotvideo_m_edpicks&fg=>1=9951

you are a fucking liar you want to save money you dont care about the troops!

Posted by: William Is a Twat! at May 18, 2007 12:23 AM

J, part of the reason for all the debate, is that some of us question the weights that Pinnacle lists on their website are not the weights of vests in the field. The SOV 2000 weighs more than what you just posted. The SOV 3000 is even heavier.

Posted by: William at May 17, 2007 10:50 PM

This quote is from Pinnacle's website to address William's question about weight:
"The SOV-3000™ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed." Various websites list the Interceptor's weight as 16.4 lbs (8.4 lbs for the vest and 4 lbs for the two plates). Beyond that I haven't done any further research. However, before having a discussion/debate it's a good idea to do basic research. IE reading the opposing side's websites even if the info may be biased.

Finally I believe that the actual reason they aren't getting the armour is cost. What the general probably meant to say is this is the best armour we can afford. However, that won't fly with the media or the public who still aren't going to be willing to pay more taxes but will complain that troops don't have the best.

Posted by: J at May 17, 2007 10:04 PM

I hope that General talking on NBC news tonight has his retirement plan together, becauese that exactly what he's going to be forced to do, retire. He was lying though his teeth!

Posted by: patriot at May 17, 2007 07:46 PM

NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT
CHECK OUT WWW.SFTT.ORG FOR MORE DETAILS OR ANYTHING SOLDIER RELATED

Sorry for the multiple posts patriot

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 12:47 PM

Soldiers For The Truth is helping with the story, which I was glad to see. I have done projects with them since I first joined the ARMY in 2004.

They get results because they will not back down from anyone and that is a great attribute for soldiers. The truth will rise as I like to say.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 12:44 PM

Thank you Patriot I'll be watching.
I hope there are more and more stories on national news about armor.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 12:15 PM

Attention Everyone!

I just saw an alert on the sftt website.
DON'T MISS NBC NIGHTLY NEWS TONIGHT!!!!
THEY ARE GOING TO DISCUSS THE BODY ARMOR CONTROVERSRY

visit www.sftt.org for specifics
tell everyone you know to make sure they watch this! I'm sure they will be talking about Dragon Skin!

Posted by: patriot at May 17, 2007 10:27 AM

I redeploy later this year. And I can't give specifics.

I'm a Staff Sgt. in the ARMY.

As far as I know the ban will be in effect for a long period of time. Possibly indefinately. The problem with soldiers buying their own armor is that we don't allways have time to inspect that armor thuroughly enough. And the last thing we want is a soldier to die wearing armor we didn't aprove. It's a necessary ban though.

No thanks necessary patriot, it's my job and I love it. I hope Dragonskin is the real deal too. I wish you the best in your future endeavors as well.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 17, 2007 10:12 AM

Trey,
When do you re-deploy?
What branch of the military are you in?
Do you know if the "ban" on Dragon Skin has been lifted? In other words, at this time are soldiers allowed to buy commercially avaliable armor?

Thank you for your service, I hope for your sake and the sake of others that Dragon Skin will be avaliable to you and others by the next time you re-deploy.

Posted by: patriot at May 16, 2007 06:31 PM

What's the matter you can't handle a real soldier's questions? Oh that's right you're sittin' in Allan Bain's lap right now? Yup I thought so.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 04:11 PM

Well Well Well a perfectly empty forum, William aren't you gonna ask questions over and over again? Well here's a question for you What branch of the military were you supposedly in? And further, what war did you fight in? because I got money that says you ain't got no trigger time in any war. You are a liar you're probably still in middleschool.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 04:09 PM

Let's dominate that other forum too. I'm gonna post there in a few.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:53 PM

That's hillarious, you'd figure he'd have something to say that didn't end with him begging for Murray to take him back.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 03:52 PM

I'm gonna hit you up on the number you called from
and we'll go out later. But in the meantime it looks like all these fake people evacuated. Did you check out this Allan Bain guy? So rediculous, it's like he's begging for people to believe him or something. Dragon Skin isn't your creation Mr.Bain. You have no credibility, that seems to make him run away.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:49 PM

Yeah I'm still holdin' down the fort here. You wanna do something later?

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 03:43 PM

Hey I was wondering if you still lived where you used to. Also you should read some of this hillarious garbage "William" posts it's rediculous. He acts like he's an expert and yet he's always asking questions like a school boy.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:39 PM

I say we have an American discussion here Erica.I figured Derrick turned his phone service off but I guess he let you use it. Anyhow, yeah there are a lot of people claiming to know someone who heard this or heard that. The funny thing is they really believe what they hear instead of what they have seen (which ain't much) by the looks of it. There are a crap-load of unanswered questions about Dragon Skin and I hope they are answered before I'm redeployed with your brother.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 03:36 PM

Trey, whats up man, I told you there was a-lot of douchebags with no military experience posting lies on these forums. My brother is about to be on leave and I told him you were rehabilitating at home until ya'll get redeployed. I'll call you here in a few. I think I lost your number so if you have Derricks hit me up.

Posted by: Erica at May 16, 2007 03:25 PM

William the Interceptor system is great fo now. You can't however say that Dragon Skin faulted after 13 of 40 shots or whatever. There is no report to support that arguement. I don't think you are getting info from a reliable source. I do know for a fact that the Interceptor will fail after 13 shots because I've seen my friend's vests fail after two or three, and after that they were wounded sometimes serious and sometimes just severe bruising or intestinal rippage which ain't pretty either. All I'm getting at is Dragon Skin needs to live up to their word or all this pro-hype/con-hype is nonsense anyway.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 16, 2007 12:28 PM

Straight up Frank. Test it more and release the results, is what I have to say. American soldiers
really deserve better if there is better. Regardless if a few guys don't like it. They should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the armor isn't up to par with military standards. This does not mean, "oh it weighs two or three pounds more" or "it's too expensive" type of crap. I want to know for myself and my fellow grunts if we're gettin' the best there is. I don't care what self proclaimed experts;William/Allan Bain think is best. I want to hear it from people who don't have other interests in mind such as the Karl Masters/James Zheng debockle. If the armor wasn't up to par then you should have encouraged improvements or upgrades instead of publicly dissing the armor.

Posted by: Big Nig at May 16, 2007 01:29 AM

The Dragon Skin armor system should be examined more turoughly and that's the only thing I have to say about the issue ever.

Posted by: Frank at May 16, 2007 01:14 AM

Ok, so enough of this he said she said, I heard this I heard that crap. The bottom line is that no one in this formum talking about Dragon Skin has any credibility. None of us has the "inside scoop" on what is really going on. Everyone is simply speculating on what they think or what they would like to see happen.
No one here saw any results of any test and no one saw any testing take place. Therefore I don't think anyone has any credibility speaking on this issue.

We do know these facts which are undeniable:
1.) Pinnacle is a very small company with regards to other armor comapines whose armor has become increasingly popular in the last couple years.
3.) Dragon Skin is NIJ level III certified, there is a copy of this document avaliable to view at sftt.org
2.) There is undoubtedly a controversy about Dragon Skin. This controversy is about something, the Army says one thing, and Pinnacle says another. So who do we believe?
As I mentioned Pinnacle is a small company, they remind me of the "small business" on Capital One commercials screaming for attention and the big boys won't give it to them.
In light of this I do not think Pinnacle has the ability, nor the clout to stir up such a controversy without their claims and their product being legitimate.

The bottom line is we really don't know all the details behind this story, and unfortunately to some people's disgust, yes some of these details are secret.
I am however certain of one thing; and that is the Dragon Skin story will continue to unravel and the public will eventually know all the details. Until that time, be patient and stay tuned for more to come.

One way or the other one party will be eating their words and my inclination is that it will probably be a few individuals in the Army.

Posted by: WHAT?! at May 16, 2007 12:40 AM

How many penetrations did the army testing make in the dragon skin vests? I heard they made 13 holes out of 40 shots and then terminated the tests. I would have terminated the testing also, since one hole is a failure. This is not acceptable. I guess the air force found out the hard way.

Posted by: william at May 15, 2007 11:12 PM

William give up on these brainwashed people.

They can't be swayed.

Posted by: Allan Bain at May 15, 2007 01:22 AM

Thank you Erica, I guess I can find "those" titles in the Library. I was wondering which titles that Mr. Neal has written, or is that another one of the elusive facts that comes out of Pinnacle. How about a justification for the fake hand grenade used in the video. Dragon Skin cannot protect you from a hand grenade as shown in the video. More false advertising. How about a reality check on the marketing videos. Our soldiers face enough problems without thinking that there is something better than what they are issued.

Posted by: William at May 14, 2007 09:48 PM

Can you quantify how dragon skin would have made a difference?

Posted by: William at May 14, 2007 08:49 PM

As a member of the army who recently returned from Iraq, I know all about the problems we're facing today in the military. Three of my buddies were killed and two others were wounded in seperate attacks. Furthermore I know of many soldiers in sister units who were KIA/WIA as well. I am not going to tell you what happened to them, but I will tell you that had they wore Dragon Skin Body Armor, many of them would have been saved.

William, you are a sick man. I don't know how you can live with yourself. People are dying because they wear poor body armor! Dying! Does that word not ring a bell anywhere in your head? You senseless scum, I can't believe the effort that you put up here. Why don't you take that hard work and campaign for Dragon Skin? You must be a complete idiot to not see the benefits of this new body armor. Dragon Skin should go to every member of the armed services in harm's way. William, or whatever this fool's real name is, should sulk in a dark corner for the rest of his life. Young men die because of fools like you, Willy.

Posted by: Soldier at May 14, 2007 08:04 PM

Here are a few titles William, Why William Is Always Wrong;the ever popular, If you See William Punch Him,and my personal favorite,If You See A Fag(William)Bash Him.

Posted by: Erica at May 14, 2007 11:05 AM

Erica, I am still waiting on the list of publications that Mr. Neal has authored. Since seem to know so much can you tell me the title of just one book.

Posted by: William at May 14, 2007 08:23 AM

So you admit that your gayness has nothing to do with Dragonskin? O.K William. We already knew that but, you seem to bring it up a lot.

Posted by: Erica at May 14, 2007 06:34 AM

Dragonskin withstands multiple rounds. It is very weight proportionate and is the best armor. You are an Allan Bain cocksucker. There is your intelligent statements William.

Posted by: Erica at May 14, 2007 06:20 AM

Thank you Erica for your un-intelligent addition to this discussion. I do not see what relavence it has to the discussion about the facts concering dragon skin, what it weighs, and Pinnacle's use of fear tactics at marketing their product for a high profit. Maybe you would like to make an intelligent comment, since your last few have been devoid of any value.

Posted by: William at May 13, 2007 05:48 PM

William has fag conversations with himself. He has stuped to acting like his ex-boyfriend once again. Not surprizing. Dragonskin rules this forum William. You eat shit.

Posted by: Erica at May 13, 2007 05:17 PM

Dang Dude, are all of you dragon skin guys gay?

Posted by: William at May 12, 2007 11:18 PM

William, me and Carlos are having a hide the salami party, can you come over? Carlos don't forget to bring the whipped cream, loverboy!

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 12, 2007 11:14 PM

Dragonskin will not back down William/allan-"no bains". You are wrong and now your hiding.

Posted by: juhytgrfed at May 12, 2007 03:08 AM

William, I like to go visit pinnacle because the real men over there treat me real rough. Sometimes they let me be on top. You should try it, and then you will believe in Dragon Skin too!

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 11, 2007 07:49 PM

William, I must confess that I am gay, and one of your secret admirers. I was hoping you would contact me so we could get together. Luv Harnu14

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 11, 2007 07:39 PM

Hey I did some research on Mr.bain and I was wrong about him I in no way support his ideals of taking Dragonskin's designs and trying to pass them off as his own. It's funny how you are quick to name call for one little flub up.

Posted by: William at May 11, 2007 12:08 PM

Allan Bain? What a douchebag. How bout something orriginal William you sight Allan Bain as a credible character he's a douche just like you.

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 11, 2007 10:13 AM

I thought I explained the issue thuroughly. But I guess I need to be more clear. The Interceptor is a double edged sword. It saved my life but at the same time it didn't disperse the impact as well as you may think. I repeat I was hit in the soft armor area of the vest. The round was a 7.62x39 bullet and the trauma was astonishing. My whole side was bruised for three weeks, when I saw the x-rays for myself after awaking from an induced coma in Germany, I had already had surgery to patch up the broken rib. Basicly I was told they had to go in and scrape all the little bone spurs of my chest wall, then they had to rebreak the rib to get the shard like tip of the rib out of the actual lung (now we're talking major trauma here because I was bleeding inside) the "insurgent" or whatever they are called back here in the states, was crouched behind some large truck tires between two rundown buildings. He shot once and got me, he then began to run as I was told. And was shot several times killing him. The rounds this terrorist was using were the 7.62x39mm. This round kicked the shit out of me and the Interceptor, now don't get me wrong, it didn't penetrate but the backface trauma was substantial. From what I saw on Future weapons the Dragonskin had no problem stopping these exact specified 7.62x39mm. rounds. I have been in contact with Soldiers For the Truth. And we're hoping to get the wheels movin' to get the Dragonskin vs. Interceptor controversy over and done with for good. If you aren't comparing the vests then there cannot be a winner.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 11, 2007 09:52 AM

Hey William LOL=your faggety calling card. That's right I'm takin the gloves off. You must be another "Bain dead" supporter. Eveyone on this Forum should check out the grudgingly accepted icon on the top of this forum and see it for yourself. This shady Allan Bain character that posts rediculous statements is hillarious.

Posted by: Fisticuffs at May 11, 2007 08:38 AM

Sorry about the double post guys, but this one is for William.

I am taking the gloves off. You are about to find out why Special Forces is "Special".

Is this supposed to be a threat? Please it is hard to understand and is vague, could you explain more as to your intent and meaning behind this quote?

Posted by: Ghandi at May 10, 2007 06:59 PM

What's going to happen on the 20th of May?

Posted by: Ghandi at May 10, 2007 06:57 PM

write a thank you to the army? had they issued him dragon skin, it wouldn't have struck soft armor and he wouldn't have suffered broken ribs and a collapsed lung! What the hell is up with this guy! He truly is "Special".

Posted by: e at May 10, 2007 06:48 PM

William stop making this stuff up. The man said the bullet missed his plate and hit his kevlar. It STRETCHED THE SOFT ARMOR, NOT THE PALTE! It didn't push his plate armor to its limits at all. No wonder why you can't seem to comprehend many of the things said here. You're so gullable you actually believed those 10 year olds pretending to be ex-veterans like Harnu. Let me tell you something, I'm "harnu14". No wonder why you believe such crap.

Stop saying that Dragon Skin isn't level IV. It is. Every American is entitled to their opinion, but you should be more careful when it comes to facts. There's only one set of facts, and it is that Dragon Skin can stop level IV bullets.

Posted by: e at May 10, 2007 06:47 PM

Trey, based upon your description of the way your armor performed, you are a very lucky man. The round you were struck with is a very nasty round. There are only two companies on the planet that could make a ceramic plate that would defeat this round to my knowledge, in the weight factor that IBA is currently at. Dragon Skin ain't one of them, and I don't care what any of you say. If you open your pie holes and say it will, I throw down the gauntlet and say put it on and I will bring the ammo. 7.4 lbs per square foot. If it pushed the limits of your IBA ceramic plate the round is way beyond Level IV. You just hit the equivilent of winning the lottery, except you won the lottery of life, instead of the megaball. I would take the time to write a thank you letter to Ceradyne and the Army. The reality of armor is that we are at the limits of current materials, including the space age high technology materials. Sorry Pinnacle, but you use the exact same materials that everyone else does, so stop the marketing campaign. Stop the lies.

By the way everyone already knows about your big product release timed for the 20th of May, and your ambush of the army. I am taking the gloves off. You are about to find out why Special Forces is "Special".

Posted by: William at May 10, 2007 05:54 PM

e is right when I was hit it missed the plate armor and allthough it diidn't penetrate the soft armor is did shatter my rib and caused it to puncture my lung. The issue with the less protected areas cannot be avoided, the bullet that hit me may not have penetrated but if you saw the vest you could see where the material was stretched so thin that it looked almost like black cellophane or a stretched trashbag. I have very strong bone density and I am also muscular in the area I was hit, so it's not a matter of being weak in that area either. It's a matter of the armor not having the potential to stop major trauma to it's vulnerable regions.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 10, 2007 05:00 PM

Yeah Allan Bain has no credibility anymore. No-one would know who he was if he didn't act like he knows a company that is making a "new" flexible armor system either. It's pretty lame that he is acting like he can make a vest (that would certainly resemble Dragonskin) that isn't pattented. He should just chalk up his mistakes as "financial gains" (as he already has) and move on.

Posted by: Kyle at May 10, 2007 04:47 PM

William, when a report released said that 80 % of marines killed in Iraq in 2004 could have been saved if they were wearing better body armor (dragon skin), does that not register any significance to you?

Lives could have been saved. Hundreds.

Had those rounds hit a dragon skin vest and not an interceptor, the bullets would not have missed the ESAPI plate and would have been defeated.

Our boys could have been saved.

take pinancle for their word. their armor stops level IV rounds, is as light as it can be (if its too heavy for you, all is not lost. Dragon Skin weight distribution is excellent), is FLEXIBLE which is a huge key, and would have saved hundreds of lives.

Posted by: e at May 10, 2007 04:43 PM

I believe Allan Bain is wrong for selling out. It is just another clear example of money over quality product. It's easier to discredit something if you have sold the rights to it. As far as "his" new flexible armor system goes, I think it's just another example of his incompetence towards other peoples money. If this had been my idea I know that I wouldn't sell it to a salesman, yet again he no longer is the spearhead for flexible armor but he thinks he has influence over the situation. If another company does come out with a flexible system I guarantee you he won't get the first crack at it. He will instead sell the idea rather than follow through with it.

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2007 01:56 PM

William you yourself admit that IBA weight is not well proportioned and yet one of your major arguements is weight. The Dragonskin system is weight distribution friendly so even if it does weigh more than IBA (31pounds) it has no bearing on comfort issues. So far your arguements aren't holding up.

Posted by: Erica at May 10, 2007 12:54 PM

It took this long to get better protection for the vehicles in Iraq? I wonder why it's taking so long for them to realize that Dragonskin is needed. Come on if we've been at war for several years and they are just now addressing the vehicle issue then I can see why Dragonskin is being held off. Our country just doesn't act like it's on the same page as our military.

Posted by: Samuel at May 10, 2007 12:37 PM

I already new that the MRAP is being used but the thing that most Americans don't realize is that the Hum-v's that are in use don't have the type of protection they need. I drove arround in a minimaly protected Hum-V for almost three months before we got a new one that had thicker protection. I'm happy to hear that the other vehicles are getting upgrades too.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 10, 2007 11:40 AM

Trey, I just saw in the paper that the Army is buying the MRAP vehicle in big numbers, go look. This was a small start up company in South Carolina. One of the big companies teamed up with them last year. They were doing pretty good on their own, but now have the resources to produce them.

Posted by: William at May 10, 2007 06:57 AM

I don't see what the big problem is in retesting Dragonskin is. If they proved it to be less than satisfactory then surely they could do it again. I don't know if they are at a standstill or what but I would like to see some progress in the matter. I'm recovering at home and hope to get back in action soon. I just want to know the truth without all the war of words. I'm not here to argue and I'm not here claiming I know everything about Dragonskin or the IBA but I have worn the IBA and know that it does perform well. I certainly should not be alive because of the angle that the bullet hit me at was supposed to be a perfect kill shot for one dead insurgent. If he had raised the rifle a few inches higher he would certainly have shot me in the head. I can say that I owe my life to Interceptor and will be proud to wear it again after recovery. At the same time, I was near death due to bleeding into my lungs and I owe a debt of grattitude to the men and women that took great care of me. We should band together in the states and get our guys what they need over seas. If there is better armor for our vehicles that should certainly come first because the IED attacks are more deadly than any rifle. I just hope our troops get more of the better protected Hum-V's because that's where most of us are dying. This is an unconventional war and it's very fleeting and taxing on our minds and bodies. This is the best military force ever so our country must get us what we need and in an A.S.A.P fashion.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 10, 2007 02:23 AM

Trey, there is unfortuneantly nothing on the horizon when it comes to body armor ballistics. Ballistic performance is measured based upon mass efficiency. This means that an armor is weighed in pounds per square foot and then tested against a given threat. The ballistics used in the Army IBA has a mass efficiency 33% lighter than Dragon Skin armor, and that is assuming DS actually defeats level IV at the same velocities. I would agree that IBA ergonomics do not distribute weight well, and the cut and fit were originally designed as purely a frag vest that was adapted to become body armor. However, this has no bearing on the protection level of the ballistics. Pinnacle has claimed that DS is better than the IBA. Well, I am sorry but until DS is the same weight with the same or better performance it is not even equal to the IBA. This is the same reason they got shot down by the Special Ops guys, their only concern is weight reduction and they were very disappointed to find out that DS is much heavier than advertised. Who ever threw out the challenge about putting on a vest getting shot, well if you put on a DS vest, I will show up with some real AP and oblige you. I just hope your life insurance is paid up.

Posted by: William at May 10, 2007 01:11 AM

William, please refrain from criticizing the weight of Dragon Skin until you contact Pinnacle. IF you believe we don't have the info you want, why do you continue to ask us and label us as "cheerleaders", and "fanboys" of Pinnacle Armor. Co.? Contact Pinnacle at consulting@pinnaclearmor.com, or e-mail Mr. Neal himself if you find his actions dishonorable or not in the best interests of protecting our troops. I can tell you now that their armor stops level IV rounds. It doesn't matter if a dentist tests it for them; a level IV bullet is a level IV bullet and all threats in their military-specification ballistic chart have been defeated by the SOV-3000.

Please, contact Pinnacle and find out some info for yourself. It will help get this discussion somewhere.

Posted by: name at May 10, 2007 01:07 AM

Pinnacle Dragon Skin armor is very impressive. If I'm not mistaken, it's level III armor has stopped over 40 rounds from and AK-47 rifle, as well as 150 9mm rounds from an Mp5 submachine gun. This type of protection, coupled with the flexibility of the vest makes it truly remarkable.

Now, referring to the other vest. There have not been any videos showing it's effectiveness, but it is capable of stopping all level IV threats at least once. Level IV testing for Dragon Skin SOV-3000 requires 6 shots rather than the traditional 1 shot test, and all of this added with the benefit of flexibility. I don't see why you could say that the people at Pinnacle are "hacks", or liars for that matter. Their ballistic chart guarantees that their level IV armor (sov-3000) can stop level IV rounds.

Posted by: name at May 10, 2007 01:03 AM

Hi Trey, no I am not going to argue with you. I in fact feel that we should look at all viable new technologies, and believe me, every company that makes materials,whether they are fabric, metal, ceramics or the new nano technologies works very hard at this everyday. They know if they make something new that they will be rewarded with business for their efforts. What gets me going is this bunch of hacks at pinnacle. They put up more bullshit than the nazis put up flak during wwII, and expect you to just believe what they are saying. Well, I have the military background and the technical background on this topic and all I see is smoke and mirrors. I especially do not like hypocrites who impune others and accuse them of greed when in fact these guys charge 3 or 4 times what any other armor system costs on the planet. Make no mistake, they are not doing this because they are altruistic, they are in this for the MONEY just like any other vendor. One of their shills said that the fake grenade stunt was done for "entertainment" well, I consider it false advertising and very misleading behavior about the capabilities of life saving equipment. The same way all their buddies wrote in the many magazine articles and web articles exclaiming that their SOV 2000 stopped multiple hits of Level IV threats when in fact it did not and does not, and nobody knows for sure if their sov 3000 works or not especially since they have not even made public one of their smoke and mirrors videos. You know, I was asked by some of my buddies still going in harms way to look at DS and give them my opinion. Well they have proved to me there is no tactic off limits for them to employ to sell their armor or to try and silence their critics and it sure helped make up my mind. I wouldn't trust these guys with my life or yours. or any of our soldiers. If you want to know if they are lying, it won't be hard to tell, their lips will be moving.

Posted by: William at May 10, 2007 12:45 AM

Allright William here is the truth of unbiased proportions. The IBA system weighed a mere 16.4lbs at first but now with the ESAPI plates including side plates, neck/throat protection and the groin protector the weight totals 31 pounds. Trust me the IBA is very un-weight proportionate. I was in Iraq and went in weighing a solid 225 I came out weighing 193.5. I'm not saying Dragonskin is better but your whole weight arguement doesn't cut it. You should really do more research because it is too easy to ask the same questions over and over. If you have a question about Dragonskin you should e-mail the technical department because they will answer all the questions you have. I can't say that Dragonskin is better or that it is worse but as a purple heart recipient I can say that it should be re tested because they owe at least that much to the soldiers. It's not a matter of soldiers thinking their armor is crappy it's the constant wonder of if there could be something better out there that mind-fucks us. At this point I hope something/anything/everything is being looked into thuroughly without an agenda or biases towards these types of things. I was hit in the rib cage and my vest did not fail to stop the bullet however, I severely shattered a rib that punctured my lung collapsing it. If there is something out there such as anything to give us more protection it is unavoidable that our vehicles/body armor need updates. I know you will ignore this William but I'm not going to argue with you anyway.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 9, 2007 11:40 PM

for those who refute Pinnacle Armor's claims that Dragon Skin is is NIJ level III certified, please go to the link provided below. Dragon Skin will soon be level IV certified. This certification is absolutely irrefutable.

http://www.sftt.org/PDF/ComplianceLetterPinnacleArmorSOV20001-MIL3AF01levelIII.pdf

Posted by: truth at May 9, 2007 11:23 PM

again, you continue to make pointless posts. the bottom line is, dragon skin would have saved hundreds of lives. it is just better than IBA. I can't put it more simple than that. we need to get this to the troops. let bain and pinnacle square off when evolution armor gets up and running. the important thing is, the troops need this.

Posted by: e at May 9, 2007 11:19 PM

e, becareful or you're gonna blow a gasket. No I don't work for Evolutionarmor.com but it does appear that the non-compete that Mr. Bain had with Pinnacle has expired and he is re-entering the market place with a newer version of platelet amor. This is going to be interesting to watch as the original inventor goes up against the salesboy who bought the technology. You know the noted inventor and author in the ballistics field. I was just wondering what books has Mr. Neal written so I can go find a copy?

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 10:51 PM

Hans, these guys cannot defend their position, so they have to resort to such tactics. They try to intimidate anyone who does not have stockholm syndrome and chant that Ds is the best. If DS was as good as they say it is, they would not hide from the questions asked, or resort to kindergarden name call, casting dispersion upon their critics. I will ask again, what is the areal density of level IV Dragon Skin? What is the Back Face Trauma? They didn't answer these two questions for US Army Special Operations Command either. They like to leave out the fact that Dragon Skin was rejected by Special Forces as being too heavy, and they chose not to buy it. Now these guys want to force feed it to them. Special Forces has their own armor program independent from the big Army body armor program. What is your reason for Special Forces not buying dragon skin, is it another one of your conspiracy theories? Mr. Masters does not have anything to do with the Special Ops armor program. Who are you going to accuse next? Maybe they didn't buy it because it sucks.

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 10:17 PM

SOV 3000 with full torso wrap and resp. protection weights more than 30lb. It was stated here by DS supporters, it is said by defensetech and it was information given by Pinnacle until March.
I also never said DS offers less protection. I think you are bit confused.
Doing posts with wrong information in my name doesn't help your propose. Why don't you argue in a proper way?

Posted by: Hans at May 9, 2007 09:03 PM

What the hell William you little snicker I bet youre employed by that failure of a company Evolution Armor systems to make pinnacle look bad. You're probably the guy who created that site to protect the army and their thick beaurocracy. that site is joke why the hell was it created in 2006 when you claim that they had the design for scalar armor done in the early 90's? what the **** william you shameful thing you clearly don't want our troops to get what they desrve and people die because of words like yours. shame on you. your comments are blatantly, grossly, and inexcusably inappropiate.

Posted by: e at May 9, 2007 08:55 PM

lol why you guys bitchin so much william and Hans

dragon skin is better

get over it you little kids
write to your congressmen/governor already to get this to our troops

Posted by: hey at May 9, 2007 08:28 PM

Anyone can see that Dragon Skin SOV-3000 covers more of your torso from level IV threats. Yet, the army said that the armor failed to protect the test dummy from level IV rounds. Weight is not an issue, it is acceptable. In fact, the SOV-3000 doesn't weigh close to 30 pounds. Maybe I should email pinnacle tonight!

Posted by: Hans at May 9, 2007 06:55 PM

Sorry guys. I should check the facts with pinnacle before posting them. Dragon Skin SOV-3000 does not weigh over 30 pounds. I should email pinnacle to find out for myself. Furthermore, I am wrong when I said that Dragon Skin offers less protection. Many men would have been saved in Iraq if they had been wearing Dragon Skin. But since I am an idiot, saving lives does not count as better protection. Better protection for me is the armor that saves us more money and protects our jobs and investments.

Posted by: Hans at May 9, 2007 06:52 PM

Real great answer Cody. But do you really believe that the Army needed a sabotaged testing
to turn down Dragon Skin? I doubt that. The only versions that would make a difference as protection is concerned are non modular 34+lb SOV3000 vests with upper resp. protection and full torso wrap. Hardly a perfect choice.
Perhaps you should remember HK416. The Army said it is better than M4 variants but only some SF units get it because of costs, logistics and the fact that M4 also does its job.
But even if SOV3000 works perfectly now as Pinnacle says that doesn't mean it is superior.
Its "superiority" is more a matter of taste than a fact. And as you want to replace current IBA system you'd also have e.g. Crye with really lightweight and comfortable vests as competitor. Do you also think that DS is worth the weight difference between their
and your product?

@David I miss your test videos on youtube!

Posted by: Hans at May 9, 2007 05:42 PM

William obviously you can't read. You think that I'm anti-American or a hate-monger. I just take the evidence and state the facts. The truth be told there is something wrong with you, I love this country and I love the soldiers who fight for your or anyone's right to have an opinion. I seriously doubt you have any friends and all your "I know someone this, I know someone that" crap is hillarious. As everyone knows Dragon Skin didn't have hardly any publicity until it was disrespected and unfairly tested. I think you already know that it was claimed that there had been contributions of a million dollars to the company yet no-one ever saw that money, uh let me guess it was used for our troops or something usefull? Actually no that million dollars went straight into the bank accounts of the ones who claimed to make the contribution. Sometimes it's hard to accept the truth when a red white and blue republican dick has been shoved up your butt for so long. Let me also guess you support everything Karl Masters and James Zheng put their unwarranted stamp on. You support faulty testing that keeps better armor from our troops. And you beleieve everything you are told by the government. Just another brainless robot who can't accept the truth no matter how many times he is told. That probably stems from your trustworthyness or your past service or your armor knowledge, actually no, you and I both know that you are an acne faced teen that can't leave your computer on the porn page in fear that your mommy will bust in the door and see you spanking. This is just your book-mark until your mom leaves the room and then you go back to the two in the pink one in the stink sites.

Posted by: Cody at May 9, 2007 09:25 AM

William obviously you can't read. You think that I'm anti-American or a hate-monger. I just take the evidence and state the facts. The truth be told there is something wrong with you, I love this country and I love the soldiers who fight for your or anyone's right to have an opinion. I seriously doubt you have any friends and all your "I know someone this, I know someone that" crap is hillarious. As everyone knows Dragon Skin didn't have hardly any publicity until it was disrespected and unfairly tested. I think you already know that it was claimed that there had been contributions of a million dollars to the company yet no-one ever saw that money, uh let me guess it was used for our troops or something usefull? Actually no that million dollars went straight into the bank accounts of the ones who claimed to make the contribution. Sometimes it's hard to accept the truth when a red white and blue republican dick has been shoved up your butt for so long. Let me also guess you support everything Karl Masters and James Zheng put their unwarranted stamp on. You support faulty testing that keeps better armor from our troops. And you beleieve everything you are told by the government. Just another brainless robot who can't accept the truth no matter how many times he is told. That probably stems from your trustworthyness or your past service or your armor knowledge, actually no, you and I both know that you are an acne faced teen that can't leave your computer on the porn page in fear that your mommy will bust in the door and see you spanking. This is just your book-mark until your mom leaves the room and then you go back to the two in the pink one in the stink sites.

Posted by: Cody at May 9, 2007 09:22 AM

Cody, I find it kind of odd that you keep talking about this conspiracy to protect jobs and programs is the reason that they don't want dragon skin. The gentlemen that you keep bashing at PEO Soldier are civil servants. There jobs do not hinge on which contractor is supplying armor to our troops. Either a contractor's product meets the requirement and passes the tests or it doesn't. There is no middle ground. They do have the resonsiblity to ensure that the armor works consistently,and meets the government specification for operation at all environmental conditions that the Army has to face. This means that equipment has to operate from freezing to high heat conditions, since the army does not have things like a summer M16 and winter M16, they have one weapon that has to operate over a wide range of conditions. It is the same for body armor. You guys were accusing the army of wanting to tamper with your armor before testing even began. Did you actually meet or know anyone at PEO Soldier before the test? I think you guys staged this whole thing as part of your plan to get publicity for Dragon Skin. You also know that Dragon Skin's design does not meet the Interceptor criteria for weight. So your only avenue is to create a political situation. What questions did you get asked about Dragon Skin's weight and backface signature when you presented your wares to U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg? You know, the meeting where they had all their Force Modernization representatives present from all the Special Forces Groups and other USASOC units, some of these men are officers, but most of them are NCOs and operators. Are you accusing all of them of conspiracy also, since they are charged with providing equipment to their guys, obviously by your definitions the Special Forces is stupid too and they are wearing inferior armor. A friend of mine was present at this meeting, he said, that they have seen Dragon Skin, and it does not do what they need, and it was too heavy. He also said that you guys did not satisfactorily answer their questions. I ask you, "who" is trying to be the self-appointed expert here? When the users don't want your stuff, who are you to tell them otherwise?

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 08:10 AM

When I see my last post tomorrow morning, I will write a page of superflous information that has no relevancy to the effectiveness and superiority of Dragon Skin. I am trying to hide my shame.Sorry.

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 02:11 AM

The only weight listed is for the standard configuration. Since I am such a slow person, please provide me with the weight of a fully configured dragon skin SOV-3000. After you provide me with these details, I will pretend that you didn't tell me those measurements and switch the topic to something else that I can think of. My job is to make you guys go round and round in circles. I have no life, and I am jealous of you people because you have lives. Therefore I am trying to waste your time.

Posted by: William at May 9, 2007 02:08 AM

Where did you hear that any of our vests were 47lbs.? You obviously aren't a smart kid because the weight is clearly listed on PinnacleArmor.com wait let me guess you are gonna ask me the weight. You are more of a child than my 6 year old.

Posted by: Cody at May 9, 2007 12:12 AM

Lets talk about the tests they were not only unfair they were blatantly staged to shoot down Dragon Skin. I guess you can not comprehend Dragon Skin's abbilities, that's ok you are just like the idiots who tested it. When there is something about to take your job awawy from you (as it has for the ones who faultedly tested it) you are going to act like it's the worst. The problem is there is no verifyable truth to their statements about Dragon Skin and that is why you will never hear from them again. There is verifyable false statements made about Dragon Skin and that is yet another reason for the forced early retirement. You bring nothing to the table William and that is why you can't get it through your head that the love of money is the root of all evil, including evil that exists within our own society such as James Zheng and Karl Masters who would openly sabotage the armor that kicks their armors ass bar none. So unless you can give anyone a reason for this behavior besides self-interest you have no valid arguement. Your fighting for lesser quality armor and if you would like to see a real life demonstration in which you can get an up close look at, visit us sometime. We don't hide from our citizens, we actually want them to know the truth.

Posted by: Cody at May 8, 2007 11:53 PM

Lets talk about the tests they were not only unfair they were blatantly staged to shoot down Dragon Skin. I guess you can not comprehend Dragon Skin's abbilities, that's ok you are just like the idiots who tested it. When there is something about to take your job awawy from you (as it has for the ones who faultedly tested it) you are going to act like it's the worst. The problem is there is no verifyable truth to their statements about Dragon Skin and that is why you will never hear from them again. There is verifyable false statements made about Dragon Skin and that is yet another reason for the forced early retirement. You bring nothing to the table William and that is why you can't get it through your head that the love of money is the root of all evil, including evil that exists within our own society such as James Zheng and Karl Masters who would openly sabotage the armor that kicks their armors ass bar none. So unless you can give anyone a reason for this behavior besides self-interest you have no valid arguement. Your fighting for lesser quality armor and if you would like to see a real life demonstration in which you can get an up close look at, visit us sometime. We don't hide from our citizens, we actually want them to know the truth.

Posted by: Cody at May 8, 2007 11:53 PM

William your facts are all wrong. If you want to find out for yourself instead of listening to us, then I suggest you e-mail pinnacle. Otherwise, keep shut.

Posted by: who at May 8, 2007 10:49 PM

$,your logic is faulty, if you are using high value people and experienced soldiers are buying it as your justification. Remember Zylon? Well in case you don't I will refresh your memory. Zylon was the latest and greatest about 10 years ago, it cut vest weights in half compared to "old" kevlar, everyone rushed to buy it, including the same agencies you like to note. It flew right through NIJ testing. Well, NU and the body armor companies making Zylon vests tried to keep a lid on the initial problems that started popping up concerning Zylon vests, this included penetrations and dead police officers. Eventually a lawsuit was filed by one of the states against Second Chance. No one makes a Zylon vest anymore and Second Chance went bankrupt. The NIJ had to overhaul their testing system. There was a lack of information on Zylon, the same way there is a lack of information on Dragon Skin. So only an idiot would take at face value what a company says is reality. The claims must be verified.

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 09:19 PM

$, it looks you campout here as well, I guess you are my troll brother. You know I guess the definition of light weight needs to be rewritten, since you guys use a different one from the rest of us. I do not consider 47 lbs of body armor "light weight" does anyone else consider 47 lbs light weight?

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 09:03 PM

William you snobby scum. Leave then, seeing as even after months of obvious evidence, testimonial, and video footage, you still refuse to accept Dragon Skin as the best body armor in the world.

Well, it is. Like it or not. We'll be glad if you left. All you do is troll here and take a fat crap on all of our comments, either sticking with "Oh no Dragon Skin can't stop Big Bullets" or with "Wow murray neal sucks at doing business, look at how very few agencies use dragon skin" or "Dragon skin falls apart internally" or "its too heavy". Well listen buddy.

Dragon Skin never had an official NIJ certification. Thats why nobody bought it. If people (well-trained and seasoned soldiers) buy it, then it is acceptable. It is light weight. Look at all the high-value peiople who use it. Department of Energy people, Presiden'ts Secret Service body guards, some Special forces groups. obviously, all arrows point to the fact that you are stubbornly, frustratingly, and incredibly foolish.

Posted by: $ at May 8, 2007 08:52 PM

The question has been asked, can Dragon Skin stop AP bullets. The answer to that is yes! It will also stop API rounds. (there has been testimonial of that on the internet from a contractor who was in Iraq) The API round will simply burn through the plates that are currently issued.
"Cody" said it best, prepare to be dumbfounded.

Posted by: some guy at May 8, 2007 08:38 PM

$, you bring up a good point, maybe I should go look at all the other blogs and forums that talk about Dragon Skin. I have given you guys the opportunity to answer my questions here where there is a limited audience, I think I will broaden my horizons and engage people where there is more intelligent discussions going on. Who knows maybe I will find more people who cannot easily be convinced with flashy videos. By the way are you going to do one with the AP bullets or not?

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 07:11 PM

Once again I must reiterate

find
something
better
to
do

Posted by: $ at May 8, 2007 06:53 PM

Bain does not own patent to "Dragon Skin" flexible SOV armor.

Dragon Skin SOV-3000 armor can stop level IV bullets.

Dragon Skin is so much better than interceptor/MTV.

William is a fool.

Posted by: $ at May 8, 2007 06:51 PM

I guess you guys are the consumate marketers. Once again, you answer with more promises, more fluff, and more nasty comments. Not one credible reply. Intelligent people do not have to resort to this type of behavior. Again, you guys talk about "classified" armor, hush hush stuff, well most level IV armor is not classified, and unless the weight of your Level IV armor is lighter than the threshold set by government classification guidelines it is not classified. I am pretty sure that your 9 or 10 lbs per square foot areal density is not classified. I guess you are calling Mr. Bain a liar. Correct me if I am wrong.

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 06:34 PM

nice timing Cody.

begone, William. Your questions are irrelevant and your comments do not change the facts. while the rest of us are on top of the mountain, you continue to whine and b**** at the bottom, telling us to help you out, and then s***ing on us. get lost

Posted by: $ at May 8, 2007 05:01 PM

Allan bain didn't invent dragon skin. he has no patents for Dragon Skin. he just developed a concept. once again, you lean on the schematics and other superfluous facts to try and prove your false point william.

i have some suggestions for you

Get
A
Life!

dragon skin is the best. live with it.

Posted by: $ at May 8, 2007 04:57 PM

My son has made his opinion known and he does not want to get in trouble. He knows that if he were to get his whole platoon to go to congress and express their views on the cituation it would create a major rift between them and their superiors. The main issue is that you can't betray your country by going against what they say, even if they are wrong. My son knows that any armor but what the Army provides (makes soldiers buy in some cases) will not be allowed. It is a travesty that my son can not use what he believes in. It is total b.s. and I guarantee you that he'll have his day along with his fellow soldiers. As far as William goes, this is America it isn't a communist nation, you should really be ashamed to not have any working knowledge of this armor but act like you are the god of our soldiers. I guarantee you if my son and his friends knew who or where you were they would beat the s out of you. I can't beleive all the crap this nation goes through and it's people like William that make it worse for real American men. You have the same smart ass attitude that Karl Masters and James Zheng have which I guarantee was and will forever be your downfall. You do nothing but post opinions (which mean less than shit to me)everyday so it's clear to me you are no use in this world. I found out about this forum from a veteran friend who could not believe the know nothing knowledge of you William. He told me that you do nothing but ask people questions and then crap on the answers. So I ask you William what are you doing to get the troops better quality living in Iraq and abroad? What are you doing to get the word out that there is beter armor for our soldiers, better armor for the vehicles? I'll answer that for you. Nothing not a godamn thing, yet you think you are on the right side of this issue, not having any experience testing these armors. This is a much larger issue than you could ever know, it isn't just about Dragon Skin it's about these men fighting in a war that most of the country (likely including you) does not support. I have written along with all of the Pinnacle Armor employees to our congress, our governor (who adamately supports Dragon Skin) as well. The support for this armor far exceeds the support for the men who unfairly tested it. Dragon Skin is currently making new vests (classified) That will be even more undeniable and indestructable than anything in the world. We at Pinnacle Armor will not be pushed asside by anyone this time. You can count on that William. The vests tested were too good for the men to believe, and they would rather use what they invented instead of something they can't comprehend. Our vests are already the best and we are going beyond what any company can design. Prepare to be dumbfounded William cause you ain't seen nothin yet.

Posted by: Cody at May 8, 2007 04:57 PM

yes let us see what happens. I was a skeptic when I first heard about the Dragon Skin controversy. When I did more research, it was clear there was much more than what was on the surface. You don't think people have already tried to team up with Pinnacle, you don't think others have tried to come in and buy the rights to the patent or just flat out discredit the patent. Thank God for the USPTO. The way big business works with small business is the big guys come in if they see something the like, buy 51% of the company, then the screw you and take all your money and your rights. Its all about money. Fortunately is seems Mr. Neal is very smart not to cave to these sorts of things.
Prediction, no I gurantee that this controversy will be revealed to the public and Pinnacle will come out looking very very good. Why do I say this? Pinnacle already has had huge media coverage, they have a product that is simply to good to cover up and body armor is such a hot topic right now. My impression would be all the larger armor companies probably have had piss runing down their legs for the last couple months. Its all politics, Pinnacle as refused to "pay to play" meaning they don't have some retired 4-star working or lobbying for them. But they don't need one. Pinnacle's future appears to be exceedingly bright, unfortunately things in the defense industry are on a need to know basis. Us civilians don't need to know all the details about dragon skin so we don't. But mark my words dragon skin will come out on top and I expect it to be soon.

Posted by: some guy at May 8, 2007 10:41 AM

Hey Cody, I think that Allan Bain over at Evolution Armor.com is also saying that you were paid a million bucks to develop Dragon Skin. He also said that he sold the rights to the technology to you guys. Gee that kind of conflicts with Murray's claims doesn't it? You know Murray takes credit for inventing it. This begs the question, who is the liar? I am starting to see a pattern here. Let's see we have reality, and then we have "Pinnacle" reality.

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 03:09 AM

The question still remains, can you make Dragon Skin work as well as the Interceptor at the same weight? If you cannot, then how can it be better. For every pound of weight you add to a soldiers load, that is one pound less ammunition, water, or other important equipment they can carry. There is a limit to the amount of weight a soldier can carry before they become combat ineffective. The politics of the whole armor debate is forcing our troops to wear more armor than they want. Your antics in shouting that Interceptor is inferior seriously errodes the confidence in their equipment. I hope you are happy with that accomplishment. Especially since even if the Army gave you a contract you could not provide enough armor to make a difference. Bragging rights do not count for much, and this is a very expensive way to feed your ego.

If you put this in perspective, the Army has a huge responsibility to provide equipment for more than 1.000,000,000 soldiers and marines. They have provided the best that current materials and production capabilities in the armor industry provides. Many decades of research and development by ballistic fiber manufacturers such as Dupont, Honeywell, DSM, Axel Noble etc. and aerospace ceramics manufacturers Ceradyne, and Cercom, millions of dollars in manufacturing facilities, thousands of workers, and "real" engineers and a little piss ant company that "bought" their technology, never participated in any military armor programs, never got NIJ certifications so they could sell to law enforcement is now saying that everyone but Pinnacle is corrupt/ incompetent? I wonder how Wall Street views these companies. You guys are morally bankrupt trading on fear and ignorance of young soldiers and their fearful parents. Now you expect to use uninformed congressmen to accomplish what the commercial market has denied you? This will be good, go ahead and spin this with your politician supporters, they will go down with the ship. I am sure they will appreciate your explanation how you guys have revolutionized the armor industry. Did you see the announcement where BAE Systems is buying Armor Holdings for $4.1 billion dollars? How come they haven't beat a path to the Pinnacle altar and try to buy you guys? The certainly have the money, and then they could capture all the military's business since they could own the "revolutionary" armor. You don't have to explain, they must be part of the conspiracy also.

Posted by: William at May 8, 2007 02:51 AM

Cody, your son is in iraq, and he's wearing inferior armor? Why not have him and his entire platoon testify before congress. They're smart kids, they're honorable, and they know better than a bunch of money-hungry beaurocrats. I think that Dragon Skin just has to get another test, and by having the troops themselves testify on their benefits, there will be a better chance Dragon Skin will pass.

nobody is forcing your son and his platoon to wear crappy armor. if your sons entire platoon supports it, then have them raise some hell alongside more troops who realize that what they wear is poor compared to Dragon Skin. Hell, if I were told to hand over my dragon skin, I'd sue the army for enough money to buy dragon skin vests for every combat trooper in the U.S. armed forces. its time to raise some awareness about this. the media already f***cked up dragon skin's image with poor research and reporting. Now its time to hear from the troops.

(no but really, your son, his platoon, and probvably many others can do something if they band together and get some publicity. if they succeed, they will save many lives).

Posted by: wow at May 7, 2007 11:34 PM

i can' believe this guy William is still here.

It don't matter how many police stations have bought dragon skin, that's has nothing to do with the protection. They dont buy dragon skin because dragon skin never got an official NIJ certification for level III or IV protection dumbass. Now, Pinnacle take their armor to get certified, and they will be certified. Dragon skin has always been better, and always will be better than what the military is currently fielding, hands down. No questions asked. Nada. zilch. Cero. Don't ask.

William needs to find something better to do. All your chitchat and nonsense doesn't change the truth.

Posted by: wow at May 7, 2007 11:28 PM

William once again you are wrong these so called highly respected people were forced to retire and that doesn't happen because you were just following orders. Second of all you don't know any of the parameters for FAT testing. We agreed in writing that all of the vests submited would be tested. And further the test has to be completed no matter what. Just like when you take a test in school such as the SAT, oh wait you failed the 5th grade so you wouldn't understand. What the hell does that mean that you have to fail the 5th grade or you can't go to the 6th grade? When a company submits a product under certain well stated guidelines for testing, you would expect the testing to be completed no matter what someone's individual opinions are. Just face it there was a blatant disregard for the testing and this was proven on several accounts. The furiosity towards the armor was shocking it was as if there was a new sheriff in town and they wanted no part of it. They did all they could to make the system fail and it infuriated them when there was no success. The lack of knowledge of this armor is what made us at Pinnacle Armor laugh because as you even stated it has been arround in development for a while. It was very obvious to us and our CEO that Dragon Skin would not be allowed to prove itself against Interceptor in side by side testing, which I get the satisfaction of doing daily if I so desire. You don't even work for an armor company so you haven't got any experience in this matter. How can such "honorable" men work with armor for years and not have the slightest knowledge of what a flexible armor system is and most of all how it works? We have tried to be understanding of their actions but there is no reason except the fact that this armor was not invented by the military. It is clear to me a hard working man who actually assembles these vests, that if it had been invented by the Army it would have been the crowning acheievement for these men, and hell it's a hard pill to swallow that there is something better that wasn't developed by your own. It's also pretty damning for these men to say that they contributed a million dollars to the development of Dragon Skin but then went on to unfairly test the armor. That is a million dollars that went straight to their pockets instead of something usefull for our troops. Just another instance where greed conquers advancements. There was nothing contributed to Dragon Skin by them except unfair testing. Don't even get me started with your "oh how could I talk about such highly respected men that way b.s." because they ain't so highly respected anymore, heck they are retired by force. You don't know anything about what it's like to have a son in the Army who knows that his armor is not as good as what his own dad assembles. He is in a hellhole called Iraq right now and he joined before any of this b.s. happened with the testing. So if you want make claims that Dragon Skin is this or that then that is your right but if you think you are right then think again. My son's whole platoon supports Dragon Skin and yet they have to wear armor that is only reliable enough to survive one shot and then the plates turns into basicly gravell in it's pocket. There is a lot of things going wrong with this country right now and this is only one issue that I have to deal with on a daily basis. It is yet another instance where the right thing gets shoved aside for the cheaper more producer profitable product instead of the more noble resiliant armor that Dragon Skin is. Take for instance the vehicles in Iraq, where is the additional armor for them? Where is the respect for troops opinions as to what armor they would like to see fairly tested? And finaly where is your opinion greater than the real facts? Just because you would rather live with a blindfold over your eyes doesn't make you or any single person the decider on what is better for American soldiers. That seems to be the problem, everyone thinks they know what is best for our soldiers and we should hope they are right but when something isn't given the proper respect as to following proper proceedure there has to be a consequence.

Posted by: Cody at May 7, 2007 11:21 PM

First of all Cody I cannot comment on whether your product completed the FAT or not, since I do not work for the government, nor was I present during testing. However, any failure of any requirement will terminate further testing. Number one is that if you fail one thing then there is no need to spend anymore time or money since it won't pass even if it can pass the rest of the tests. Kind of like school, if you fail the 5th grade, you don't get to go to the 6th until you do.

The issue here is not whether Interceptor is the best in the world or whether I think it is the best in the world, it is whether Dragon Skin is better than Interceptor. Interceptor has gotten through all the First Article Tests, and continues to pass lot testing on a weekly basis. This is an expensive process that is "FAT", random samples are pulled from each shipment and tested to insure that the contractor is delivering a product that meets the same performance and the same product that was approved. The Army has tens of thousands of data points for this specific armor. There is no other armor system on the planet with as much scrutiny, or imperical data. The primary suppliers of Interceptor components have been Point Blank for the soft armor and Ceradyne provides the plates. Maybe you should look these companies up see just what they do for a living. Ceradyne is a world leader in technical ceramics. I do believe they turned down doing business with Pinnacle. I will not defend Point Blank other than to say that their armor is inspected thoroughly and lot tested. The Army has to keep them honest. Having spent considerable time dealing with armor and the major players in the industry and the government I was shocked at the accusations made by Pinnacle against some very hard working and honorable professionals. I looked at Dragon Skin in 1998 and did not see anything special since all the armor we had was considerably lighter and stopped the same threats. It looks like nothing is new. Even if Dragon Skin works as advertised it is still 33% percent heavier than current armor systems to defeat the same threats. For any organization to invest in something new, especially for a large organization like the military there has to a significant improvement over what they already have in the inventory. If Dragon skin weighed the same as current armor and offered superior protection that would be significant, or if Dragon Skin were lighter and offered the same protection that would be significant. Dragon Skin is neither. Pinnacle claims that Dragon Skin is more comfortable, ok, but during my career the Army never spent a nickel on my comfort, so how much does that count for? Now we get down to brass tacks. Does Dragon Skin meet the areal density requirements set forth by the current Operational Needs Statement or any of the other requirements that Inteceptor must meet? It doesn't matter whether you can stop 5,10, or 15 rounds, you do not get extra credit for exceeding requirements, but you must meet all the baseline requirements or you are finished. If Pinnacle wants to be taken seriously by people who make decisions then you must demonstrate to the same standards that Dragon Skin meets the same requirements. You cannot just exclaim, market, or bully people, you must demonstrate through a credible test facility using accepted test protocols that your armor in fact, does what is claimed. You guys threw down the gauntlet and accused some very respected and hard working people of some horrible things. If you really had a case you could pay to have your armor tested in accordance with the Army protocol using a third party test lab and then publish the results. You and I both know that Dragon Skin is much heavier than the Interceptor system and that is why you have taken this course of action to try and use politics as a marketing tool. How about publishing the long list of Police departments that have bought Dragon Skin, or the list of foreign military clients that want to buy it. Dragon Skin may be a good armor system, but life saving equipment decisions are made by the people with scientific knowledge, not by lay people running on emotion and fear. Platelet armor is not new to the military, it has been done before, you may have a better mouse trap, but the weight and expense do not justify any ballistic performance gains. Besides, the real issue about the original Interceptor vs the Dragon Skin was about additional coverage on the sides extending coverage to more than the chest plates. This additional protection does not require replacement all the body armor in the field. This was accomplished by simply adding the additional side plates. Another thing is that the major causualty producer on the battlefield is not bullets, it is blast, which the Dragon Skin offers no advantages over Interceptor against this threat. So again I accuse you of using an outdated Marine report which showed "if" the chest plates were larger or provided more rifle protection then a few more Marines might have survived. By the time that information was released the military already had side plates on the way to the box.

As far as responding to your demand about show you a website that shows Inteceptor is superior to Dragon Skin, I will point out that I do not represent the manufacturers of these products. They are not for sale to the general public being restricted military items and OPSEC is important to the survivability of our troops, but I can tell you that Interceptor defeats NIJ Level IV by a wide margin. Also it is not the responsiblity of the government to show the superiority over Dragon Skin, you have made those claims, it "is" your responsibility to show to the rest of us that Dragon Skin is. Backyard shoots do not qualify as testing. They do qualify as demonstrations. You may fool the uniformed and the naive, but that will never get past professionals who have experience in the art.

Posted by: William at May 7, 2007 07:04 PM

First you bash the videos and now you want more? Ya sound a little schizophrenic there William.

Posted by: Erica at May 7, 2007 04:28 PM

It looks like you've been had William. You have no more reasons to post questions because it is clear you can go to the source of your enquiries. Your opinion is all you have now and that ain't much.

Posted by: Bart at May 7, 2007 03:29 PM

Go to PinnacleArmor.com click on _contact us_.
e-mail:
(sales) (consulting services) (technical)

Posted by: Cody at May 7, 2007 02:29 PM

One third of Dragonskin's vests were tested and that is not a complete FAT test. If you think that Interceptor is the best armor in the world then where is the proof? And I don't want it from you so find a website that proves that Interceptor is better than Dragonskin. You won't find one that supports your views because none exist. You are very naieve to think that one of our R&Ds was talking to you and it is yet another example of your child like mind. I do however work for Pinnacle Armor and would be happy to answer any of your questions via e-mail.

Posted by: Cody at May 7, 2007 02:18 PM

Only a third of Dragonskin's
thirty vests were tested so stop ignoring the facts William. If you expect us to answer your questions then don't deny the fact that the FAT testing wasn't done correctly. If you think that the Army is right in not finishing what they start then that is your problem. In doing this the Army has made a big mistake by not living up to their duty. They neither proved or disproved Dragonskin and that is the problem here. No-one can tell you what you want to hear because you choose to ignore the facts. Even if the vests they tested didn't perform to their standards that still does not make for a complete test if you don't follow through with proper procedure. I don't beleive you understand what is at stake here and I'm not trying to make you a believer in Dragonskin however, if you think you know that Interceptor is the best armor system in the world then you should have to prove it. Where is Interceptor's proof that they are better? How many rounds of APM2 can they withstand? How much trauma is there to the backface? How long has it been since Interceptor has been FAT tested? When will you start questioning your own knowledge of Dragonskin and start researching for yourself? If you don't know the facts you won't believe them anyway. What do you mean by our R&D guy ran away from you? Our R&D guy would not waste his time with you, and further our R&D guy only does R&D so you obviously beleieve you were talking to a real research and developer of Dragonskin. Just another example of how naieve you are. I do however work for Dragonskin and will be happy to answer any of your questions via e-mail.

Posted by: Cody at May 7, 2007 02:08 PM

Nathan, this is just a repeat of already published information. How about answering the questions I already asked or make a new video showing DS defeating real AP bullets. Then I will shut up. You can thank all your cheerleaders, since I came asking simple questions and then got attacked, now I do not plan to go away until they are answered. Your R&D guy ran away from my questions, so what am I to think? He certainly has the information I asked for.

Just keep holding the "party" line there Nathan. If Dragon Skin stopped 12 rounds in Army testing, surely it will do it again for one your fancy videos.

Posted by: William at May 7, 2007 07:28 AM

Response to Karl Masters' (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing

There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn't meet a sepcification.

We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.

During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army's Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng "you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible"! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn't know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said "look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced"? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can't seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying "it's not supposed to do that"and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.

The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: "I'm completely baffled by this flexible technology and I'm not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works"! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!

All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.

Those are the cold hard facts William.

Posted by: Nathan at May 7, 2007 12:21 AM

Response to Karl Masters' (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing

There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn't meet a sepcification.

We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.

During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army's Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng "you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible"! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn't know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said "look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced"? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can't seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying "it's not supposed to do that"and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.

The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: "I'm completely baffled by this flexible technology and I'm not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works"! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!

All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.

Those are the cold hard facts William.

Posted by: Nathan at May 7, 2007 12:20 AM

Response to Karl Masters' (US Army) public statements regarding unfinished FAT testing

There has been a lot said about the latest test of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin body armor by the Army in official and unofficial statements. Now their story is we didn't meet a sepcification.

We would like to let you in on the truth about the testing. The Dragon Skin body armor was supposed to be tested to the ESAPI (current level 4 system) test protocol and procedures as the Army agreed to, unfortunately less than one third of the thirty vests were tested. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A COMPLETED FIRST ARTICLE TEST.

During the period of 17-19 of May 2006, the Army's Project Manager Soldier Equipment (PM SEQ) conducted First Article Testing of Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin Full Torso Wrap coverage level 4 body armor system at HP White Labaratory as requested by Brigidier General Moran (he has since been forced to retire). After the first round was fired on the 17th the test director Karl Masters and technical liason James Zheng argued openly and loudly about the placement of the shot and what constituted an edge for flexible armor systems. At this point Karl Masters threw down his paperwork and stormed off as he told James Zheng "you represent the government you select the shots and you will be responsible"! Next Karl and James threw x-rays of our body armor at us and claimed that we didn't know how to design a flexible armor system. When we asked how James Zhengcame to that conclusion James said "look at the spacing of the dics, they are not evenly spaced"? We showed him that when he picked up the vest to place it on the x-ray table he he changed the spacing of of some of the rows of discs and this is what is supposed to happen in flexible systems! You could see the light come in over his head, no wonder they can't seem to design anything better than what they have. Again, deviation from ESAPI test protocols and procedures took place by the selection of shot placements of APM2 rounds arround the cerramics in non-rifle defeating areas (where there was an adhesive anomoly. James Zheng attempted to induce failure with selective placement of shots at the center and edge of individually isolated discs on the system and the system did not fail. This set James Zheng off on a tirade saying "it's not supposed to do that"and throwing his arms in the air and yelling. This does not sound like fair and unbiasedtesting to us.

The testing was stopped by the Army at 12:37 pm on the 19th, Karl Masters and James Zheng had just shot one of our medium sized vests with 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) with complete stops on all rounds with a backface trauma average of 22.5mm for this vest and 23mm for all vests tested, which is a 50% reduction in trauma over the current system. Imagine how many more lives could have been saved if the Dragon Skin body armor was available to our troops today. When was the last time the Army dared to shoot 12 rounds of APM2 (level 4) into any Interceptor IBA with ESAPI plates? The reason Karl Masters, Col. John Norwood (being forced to retire early) and James Zheng gave for stopping the testing early on the 19th was as quoted by Karl Masters: "I'm completely baffled by this flexible technology and I'm not going to send another round down range until I can understand how a flexible system works"! This is the same group that falsely claimed to have paid Pinnacle Armor nearly a million dollars to develop our Dragon Skin system as Major General Sorenson said on CNN,31 March 2006!

All of the government agencies that use our Dragon Skin body armor have all tested the system and found it to be far superior to the current system. We are still looking forward to working with the Depatment of Defense to conduct fair and unbiased testing to prove that our Dragon Skin system is far superior to any other system.

Those are the cold hard facts William.

Posted by: Nathan at May 7, 2007 12:19 AM

Eddie, I just invented a new handheld laser raygun, it is better than the M16/M4. I will have a video out soon, so you can see how good it is. They are only $4,995. I showed it to the government, so now it is classified. But you can still get one, even if the Army doesn't want to buy them. If you buy two, I will give you a discount, and a free wall charger.

Posted by: William at May 6, 2007 06:55 PM

I'VE SERVED IN TWO CONFLICTS AND CURRENTLY IN STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT I'VE SEEN THE TEST. IM IMPRESSED WITH THE RESULTS,IF THE MILITARY DOESN'T WANT TO ADAPT THE TECHNOLOGY AT LEAST LET THE TROOPS BUY THEM INSTEAD OF INACTING POLICY TO PREVENT IT

Posted by: EDDIE at May 6, 2007 03:29 PM

HAHAHAHAHA look at this fool william. They said that it was a fragmentation grenade, bud.

keep talking, i'm sure a lot of people believe you. you nut. you're so gullable that you think that harnu guy was really some army guy with connections to contractors. no wonder why you believe such lies. Dragon Skin is the best.

Posted by: AHAHAHAHA at May 6, 2007 02:21 PM

Maldus, when you bought your last car did you buy the Ferrari or the Chevy Tahoe? You can blame congress for the lack of funding, since they decide how much money is available, there is thing called a budget. The other thing is that all federal and military equipment is procured in accordance with a set of rules established by congress (the Federal Acquisition Rules) these were revised during the Jimmy Carter years and have created a vast majority of the problems in the system today. Remember Clinton's peace dividend? I do and it is exactly why I got out of the military when I did. I joined under Carter, and the only way my unit could conduct training was to pass the hat so we could buy the MoGas for the ambulance so we could go to the range. Our trucks sat in the motorpool and we force marched everywhere. Jungle boots were known as LPCs (Leather Personnel Carriers). The culture for success in the contracting corps is set by the FAR and the available funds. You can say what you want about lowest bidders, but you should qualify it with the fact that someone in the government set the technical specifications, that they had to meet to be the technically correct, lowest bidder. By the way our military is still the best equipped in the world the last time I checked. If you badger congress to spend more money, don't bitch when they want to raise our taxes to do so.

Posted by: William at May 6, 2007 08:57 AM

LOL, the two most common US grenades are the M67 fragmentation and the MK3A2 HE concussion. These however are not the threat our guys face.

You should do some research since you obviously lack any military experience to know what type grenades are being used, their countries of origin, or their lethality. If you had served in combat you would have encountered these, or at least served in a combat arms unit you would have been trained to recognize them.

Posted by: William at May 6, 2007 08:33 AM

Lowest bidder = winner for the Army contract.

Welcome to ARMY beuracracy. Notice that it starts with B just like Bull$#%&.

Sums it up that is why there is a massive troop reduction in the other 3 branches and once Iraq is over there will be even more troop reduction.

Pentagon.inc

Posted by: Maldus at May 6, 2007 03:18 AM

LOL dont you even start with that william. Any GI this, or any GI that. Any GI would take dragon skin over your proposed "modularity" equipment. any day, any way, any where! youi dont speak for the troops. dragon skin is the best armor plain and simple. find something better to do. you're a bleeding salmon in a powerful stream. Heck, maybe a bear might even catch ya

Posted by: LOL at May 6, 2007 12:37 AM

LOL look at this kid william trying to sound smart and get our troops killed in weak armor. HE grenade? standard grenades are fragmentation, buddy!

haha you're just gonna keep going on and on and on theres no stopping Willy the choo choo train

spreading lies, protecting contracts, endangering the lives of the troops. virtueless.

Posted by: LOL at May 6, 2007 12:34 AM

Hi Albert, wrong on all accounts. I guess you guys just can't stand the questions I ask, so you have to try and disparage my character at every opportunity. Well it won't work.

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 08:23 PM

Let me guess William you are from New York. It couldn't be a coincidence that I happen to have been able to find out that you have a criminal record. So how much time did you get for molesting your nephew? I also found out from public record that you aren't supposed to be using a computer. How's that for justice. I'm an officer and I also manage this forum---not exactly smart to put your real e-mail address now is it?

Posted by: Albert /Webmaster at May 5, 2007 07:59 PM

I just had a great idea. Why don't you guys make one of your videos showing Dragon Skin being shot with Real AP bullets. You could also use a Real HE handgrenade for the next video. That way no one could argue that Dragon Skin works. If you make the video, don't forget to use a chronograph to record bullet velocities.

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 06:24 PM

Random, I went to Armorworks website. They list that their level IV plates stop 30 cal APM2 and M80 Ball. They do not say that M80 ball is a level IV threat. Quite the opposite from the marketing cheerleaders for DS have said. There still has not been any comment about the "Blue Training Grenade" used in the video "Stunt" for the discovery channel. Is the baldheaded ex-Navy Seal on Pinnacle's Payroll? What I can't figure out is that if Dragon Skin is classified and its' capabilities are classified, why is it plastered all over the internet and on the discovery channel? Any GI knows what will happen to them if they divulge classified material or even violate OPSEC.

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 05:58 PM

More marketing, more marketing. How about some technical information. You wouldn't buy a car without knowing what kind of gas mileage it gets, and what engine it has. You guys will do anything to avoid talking about the facts. More mumbo jumbo, super secret stuff, can't talk about it.you guys are hilarious! Armor gets classified if it is very light weight, which Dragon Skin is not light weight. You boys need to unplug from the Matrix. Stay tuned to the next episode of "Dragon Tales"

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 05:20 PM

lol william you dont need that kind of data. if special forces troopers and other soldiers are buying it then it is obviously acceptable in terms of weight and protection. also it is flexible too!

Posted by: lol at May 5, 2007 12:49 PM

lol you guys stop trying to convince william hes nver gonna accept the obvious truth. this guy is hilarious! he makes me laugh! and also disgusting!

Posted by: lol at May 5, 2007 12:47 PM

Armor Works must be part of this so called "conspiracy" since they list 7.62mm M-80/PS Ball as a level IV threat. (see for yourself)(http://www.armorworks.com/html/ps/bodyarmor.html#nij)
Again, there is absolutely no merit in debating the ballistic capabilities of Dragon Skin. The capabilities are clearly known. Pinnacle lists on their website the threat levels and what they entail in a ballistics chart. Pinnacle Armor delivers as adversited. To the best of my knowledge, the pentagon tested the vest and classified the results.
Within the defense industry there is a delay between what goes on and the news about it. The news we are hearing most recently about Dragon Skin probably took place several months ago.
For example in 1991 lockheed martin was awarded the contract to build the F-22 raptor. We are just now barely seeing it operational.
The point is there are most likely more developments taking place with Dragon Skin that we will continually hear about in the news. Some of the developments may be secret or classified, but I am confident that Congress will eventually force the Army to buy the vests.

Posted by: random at May 5, 2007 12:18 PM

Well maybe you can start by providing some answers on AP projectile velocities, blunt trauma measurements, and areal densities of your level IV armor,instead of just continuing the mantra of "its the best just buy it". Since you work in R&D then you certainly have access to the test data.

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 10:15 AM

William you should really rethink what you write on this forum. I can't count on my hands how many times you have went back on your word. I work for Pinnacle's research and development department and I know for a fact that Dragonskin is the best vest in the world. If you don't beleieve that the SOV 3000 will be America's next tactical vest just wait. Our vests have already been certified for level 3 protection and soon you will see the SOV 3000 will be replacing Interceptor. The only drawback for Dragonskin's vests is the price, which we even tried to work with the Army on that. However we have done a lot of research and are working to make the vests more affordable for soldiers. The publicity that this company has recieved is unrivaled by any other armor company and that is what makes us work harder to prove that our system is and will be the best. Have a nice day.

Posted by: Pinnacle.com at May 5, 2007 10:03 AM

Hey, David Crane created Friends and David Schwimmer (Gerald) was Capt. Zobel in Band of Brothers. So he knows somebody who was AIRBORNE and in WW2!

Posted by: me at May 5, 2007 05:22 AM

Erica, I have been to Pinnacles website, and read their claims, you have to remember that they are a business. I have pointed out in previous posts some inaccuracies listed on their website. This is exactly my point. There is no way to verify anything they have said about the SOV3000. They even call it the MIL-STD SOV3000, trying to make you think it is military grade armor. OK which military has bought it? Please tell me which country on this entire planet is using Dragon Skin. Hell, please tell me which Police department has bought it??? Are the cops in on the conspiracy too?

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 05:04 AM

Random, I read this article and many more just like it. This is exactly what is wrong. There are so many inaccuracies that either the author is very ignorant, or intentionally is misleading about the facts. 1. M80 ball is "not", and never has been a level IV threat, but the writer, David Crane clearly states that it is. 2. The writer gives many "claims" like reduced backface trauma, my question is "compared to what"? No where is there any trauma measurements given. The whole article is slanted with glowing comments, which appear to be just marketing, since there are no real facts, just claims. Also, David Crane is a well known Anti-establishment writer, who has no credibility. So anything he writes will certainly get questioned right out of the gate and must be verified. If you take anything this hack writes at face value, you will get burned. He has proven to provide many unfounded and delusional "facts" before, since the world appears differnt to him than the rest of us. Just because it is printed or on TV does not make it true.

Posted by: William at May 5, 2007 04:49 AM

Ignore William because he has no knowledge of what Dragonskin is about.

Posted by: Erica at May 5, 2007 01:59 AM

Ignore William because he has no knowledge of what Dragonskin is about.

Posted by: Erica at May 5, 2007 01:58 AM

To William: since you are the "expert" why don't you see that Dragonskin certainly has something usefull to work with. If you are really a patriotic person you too would see the need for better armor. And as far as opinions go that's all you post so you are deffinately a hypocrit and you're probably on the infamous Interceptor payroll. What's the matter you can't go to Pinnacle's website for fear of being wrong? Where are your cold hard facts that Dragonskin isn't an advancement, oh I get it you think the ARMY did a fair testing and that ARMY testers wouldn't have suspicious motives. You are the one who has been dooped and everyone knows you have a miserable life. I suggest to everyone on this forum that they ignore this "William" fag because all he does is ask for info over and over again that has been on Pinnacle's website for a long time he really is a true yankee, you tell him once he asks a thousand more times.

Posted by: Erica at May 5, 2007 01:55 AM

http://www.mtoa.org/swat_news.htm

this website has some interesting information on dragon skin and is a fairly recent article.

Posted by: random at May 5, 2007 01:21 AM

There is something in the United States known as the military-industrial complex which Pinnacle Armor is not a part of. This is the reason why current companies maintain their contracts with the Army producing armor that is inferior. For those who may not be familiar with what the military-industrial complex is, simply look it up.
With regards to the grenade being detonated Dragon Skin, this is more for entertainment purposes, some of you may have see in the pneumatic IED on "Test Lab", again this is more for entertainment purposes. However, these demonstrations certainly do not take away from the capability of the Dragon Skin vests. Dragon skin is by the way NIJ level III certified. If I'm not mistaken level IV certification is in the process of taking place. I see no merit in debating the ballistic capabilties as the public has seen multiple times that Dragon skin is clearly superior to Interceport vests.
It is almost criminal that Dragon Skin has not been issued to our troops. A few individuals in the Army have been trying to cover up the truth with their lies. Don't be suprised if there are criminal charges handed down somewhere down the line and some high ranking Army officers resign sometime in the future. The good news is that Dragon Skin is simply to good of a product to cover up, even if it is produced by a small, private company.
Pinnacle Armor is a company of integrity. Rarely in any business does any sort of company deliver a product as advertised. Dragon Skin is capable and delivered as adversited plus much more!

Posted by: random at May 5, 2007 12:38 AM

Please put some cold hard facts in print. So far the only thing presented here are your impassioned opinions and inuendo about conspiracies. Please print some facts about the Armor piercing rounds that dragon skin stops, the velocities they are stopped, the backface trauma, and please explain the blue training grenade that was used in the video trying to mislead our servicemen into believing that this bullshit actually works against the real threats they face on the battlefield. The reason that Special Ops did not buy into this scharade is they asked for the cold hard facts and Pinnacle never provided them. And the fact that DS is 33 percent heavier than BALCS, which is the armor issued to Special Operations. The problem with flexible armor is that it is 33 percent heavier and the trauma is higher. This is also why Pinnacle tries to disparage the use of clay backing for testing and recording of the temporary blunt trauma cavity and insist on using rubber dummies and gelatin. Another thing is their kindergarden representation of fragmentation testing in their video. The homemade air cannon cannot produce the velocities that "real" fragment testing is actually done at in the real world. Until Pinnacle actually unplugs from the "matrix" and the fantasy land they live in, no one will or can take them seriously. You nieve boobs know nothing about armor piercing threats or even the velocities that fragmenttation testing is conducted by every military in the world. The Interceptor standards are the highest in the world. Many NATO countries are on the waiting list to buy exactly what is being issued the our troops. They have a choice and could just as easily buy DS instead. Please tell me, how many countries have bought dragon skin? Wait, they must be part of the conspiracy too, right? Get real, you guys have been duped. My prediction is that Pinnacle will be indicted for contract fraud, the Federal Trade Commision will get them for marking their armor as being NIJ certified when it had not received this rating, and their will be a class action lawsuit from all the buyers. Dragon skin is a joke. You guys are just pawns. Have nice life.

Posted by: William at May 4, 2007 11:30 PM

no, I dont think William is brain dead. It's too obvious to refute Dragon Skin's superiority over current issue. I think William was dispatched to this forum to detract from Dragon Skin and to protect those contracts and jobs between the Army and those armor manufacturers. Spread the word, because this is seriously disgusting. Dragon skin is SO much better than the current issue. Ask any well-informed U.S. serviceman, and they will tell you that they would dump their current issue and take dragon skin any day, any where.

Its obvious to me that William will never accept the fact that DS is the best body armor. Whatever he says, its just to try and trick us. You can attack Dragon Skin, Pinnacle Armor, or us forum posters as much as you want, William. It doesn't change the cold hard facts.

Posted by: petah at May 4, 2007 01:24 PM

Exactly Jay, William wants to hide from the truth because he knows he is wrong. You can certainly find out anything you would want to know about Dragonskin but he thinks he is all-knowing on everything and is basicly a truth avoider much like the anyone who would think that Dragonskin is not the future for this generation. Instead William would rather lie to himself because by now he must certainly see the benefit of Dragonskin but maybe he really is just brain dead.

Posted by: Jesse at May 4, 2007 01:00 AM

The truth about Dragonskin is this. It is deffinately a great armor that should be researched and developed further by people who have a true care for our troops abroad. There should be steps taken to make Dragonskin's SOV3000 as good as Pinnacle says even if it isn't to the level of stopping the more powerfull of the rifle rounds (which I belieive it is). I remember a time when the research and development of armor didn't just rely on the individual company alone. We're America we should work with any company that possibly (deffinately in this case) has something great to bring to the table. You can see this type of ignorance in the HumV's that should be better armored as well. It's almost like our forces are expected to pull off the impossible, without the help of better equipment and in hellish like conditions. We as the citizens of the United States need to band together and get these advancements in our military as soon as possible for the good of our soldiers. Dragonskin is the only thing I've heard of in a long time that disperses energy like no other. It is also flexible and right there are two very undeniable reasons that no-one can or should avoid. Don't despize Dragonskin because it's controversial, rather embrace it and let it be known that it is the greatest thing for all soldiers who just want to do their duty without dying wearing an outdated protective vest. If we can get this vest to our men/women it will be one less thing to worry about and that goes a long way for every soldier.

Posted by: Jesse at May 4, 2007 12:52 AM

William, since you do not trust us "simpletons", why not move your ass for once and e-mail the officials at Pinnacle Armor. You can ask them anything you want, and if you're still blind enough to not see the obvious, clear, and absolute truth, then I'm sorry but nobody here will spend any more of theier time and effort to try and convince you that Dragon Skin is simply the best. There are winners and losers in society, and those who have the most knowledge have the most success. Believe what you want; it doesn't change the fact that Dragon Skin is the best. Shame on you, William.

Posted by: Jay at May 4, 2007 12:21 AM

Thank you, finally there is another person who understands the true facts of the matter. I really get pissed off when these imposters spam in the hopes to argue my point (DS is the best), but in the process, makes us who believe in Dragon Skin look like fools. Well, we aren't, and Dragon Skin is just clearly superior to anything the military gives its troops.

I have mentored many of my friends about Dragon Skin, ballistic standards, and the difference between the two different Draogn Skin vests. I've also explained (in insane detail) why it is superior to the stuff our troops get today. People know, but we're not telling the right people. We should be phoning those damn news organizations and newspaper writers again.

Posted by: Jay at May 4, 2007 12:17 AM

To those who read this blog and are active duty, reserve or vets, thank you for your service to our country. Roger Charles who is president of sftt.org explained it best why dragon skin is not fielded to our troops. Understand that exposure on Future Weapons and other television shows are huge steps in getting this armor to our troops in the field. Dragon Skin is clearly superior to anything out there and can simply absorb more kinetic energy than any other armor. I have a suspicion that the ballistic capabilties far exceed what anyone might expect. In the mean time, in order to get this armor out to the troops, the public must be made aware. Tell your friends, tell anybody that there is superior body armor out there and our troops are not getting it.

Posted by: random at May 4, 2007 12:05 AM

I really like your low life sabotage tactics. You have not been able to refute the facts that I put forth questioning the merits of the claims made by Pinnacle or their tactics, so your only weapon is to make false posts using the same name as I do, and call me names. None of these simpleton tactics changes anything. You can yell all you want, but the facts and questions I have raised are still posted, and remain unanswered. So just keep up the name calling, it is befitting of the quality of the product you all love so much. I guess we should name this forum "Dragon Tales", since it is either a fairy tale or a soap opera.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 08:19 PM

William is not even real anymore because we saboWilliam is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don't respect liars like "william".taged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don't respect liars like "william".

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 05:36 PM

William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don't respect liars like "william".

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 05:36 PM

William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don't respect liars like "william".

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 05:35 PM

William is not even real anymore because we sabotaged him just like the fools that sabotaged dragonskin. Keep up the good work and don't respect liars like "william".

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 05:35 PM

what the hell? go back to san fran cisco?

You call yourself an American? You're ignorant, obviously, because you hate Americans (people in San Francisco and probably democrats), you spam this comment thread, and you use rude language. Above all, you disrespect the Marines by manipulating their motto and twisting it to your own sick atude. I know that "Semper Fuckin Fi", "Todd", Fake "Harnu14", and one of the 2 fake "Williams" are the same people. You always type like this:

Hello guys.What is up

as opposed to this

Hello guys. What is up

You obviously don't know how to write a sentence properly, because you forget to put a space behind each period (a period is a . in case you didnt know).
I suggest you clean yourself up and post more maturely here, because this isn't a place for little 14 or 15 year olds to talk like the way you are.

Posted by: someone at May 3, 2007 05:30 PM

"Someone" you are also William's fag buddy.What's the matter is my typing making you cry?I'll type however I wan't you William dick sucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!pussy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!go back to san francisco shit lick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!doyou have a problem with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this too?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: SEMPER FUCKIN FI at May 3, 2007 04:58 PM

Listen all yall it's a sabbotage!!!!!

Listen all yall it's a sabbotage!!!!!

Listen all yall it's a sabbotage!!!!!

So,So,So whatcha want bitch?You want a forum war William the fagboy shiteater?I don't think you do cause you are out numbered and too gay to have a valid point anyway.If anyone does know William in real life he should kick him in the teeth for thinking he's the voice for all of military.

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 04:53 PM

lol Todd/fake william you always type by putting your words right after a period like this:

William is fake.I am not fake

it should be like this

William is fake. I am not fake.

Posted by: Someone at May 3, 2007 04:51 PM

William is not even real anymore because we sabbotaged him just like the asses that sabbotaged dragonskin.Keep up the good work and don't respect pussies like "william" who no longer exists on this forum.

Posted by: Todd at May 3, 2007 04:47 PM

I should scurry myself to Fresno California and witness a Dragon Skin vest under a test. Since I am so stupid that I cannot believe how many AK bullets have been stopped by a level III armor, I simply hide behind the fact that Pinnacle is bad at advertising their armor and that Pinnacle "lies about their performance". These are utter lies themselves, and I am a liar.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 04:45 PM

William is a cock eater.That doesn't shock me.Hey William why do you exist you piece of faggety shit?

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 3, 2007 04:43 PM

That was yet another low-life imposter. I did not fool anybody on this forum. I am foolish for saying Americans are foolhardy. People are foolhardy. Being American does not make you immune to foolishness; we are all human. Some are misinformed while others are not.

Everyone knows that Dragon Skin is hands down better than anything the military currently has to offer.

Though I try to fool people, I fail miserably.

In fact, I am well aware of the sabotage that went on during the Army testing of Dragon Skin, and my aim here is to convince people that Dragon Skin is ineffective in order to preserve the contracts between the military and its armor suppliers.

By doing this, I will save many high ranking beaureucrats millions of dollars while our soldiers die wearing inferior armor.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 04:42 PM

William is a cock eater.That doesn't shock me.

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 3, 2007 04:42 PM

William is a cock eater.That doesn't shock me.

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 3, 2007 04:41 PM

I suck cock for a living and also do anal for free my name is actually William and I,m a fagget who would rather talk about eating shit than talking about foreskin.Hey Harnu how bout that date?I'll eat your ass.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 04:39 PM

I'm Islamic and I don't beleive that better armor for U.S. troops is necesary.I would rather see America pull out of Iraq (the holy land).Because I know they can't possibly win.You are all so trustworthy of me and I have fooled you all again.If this is how American's are, then you have no chances even with dragoskin in Iraq or Afghanistan.Once and for all this is just another online experiment for me and guess what, you all lost.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 04:36 PM

Please people from now on, you all ignore me.I am just here to "detract" Dragon Skin and I am too weird to see the obvious truth.I do not know what I am talking about and I want to protect the beaurocracy and contracts so that our troops don't get good armor.That way I will get paid more. Thank you.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 03:06 PM

Actually if I were smart enough to visit Pinnacle Armor website I would understand that they do not mistaken 7.62x39mm ball for a level IV bullet.I'm too ignorant to go to their ballistic chart because I'm so dumb to not understand the superiority of Ds.Actually I need people to waste their time on me to try and convince me that Ds is better than military issue, and then I ignore them by talking about Pinnacle lying.Actually if I headed over to their ballistic chart, I would see the level IV and IV+ threats listed.7.62X54mm at 2950 is not a level III threat.I'm just dumb.Lol.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 03:05 PM

Fake william made some valid points. First of all, the only source of information any of you have whether the military fairly or unfairly tested Ds comes from the head company cheerleader. Which is the same source for all the marketing hype, including the BLUE TRAINING GRENADE used in the video. The lack of credible testing, and the misleading information, on armor weights, mis-representing the AK47 PS BALL round as level IV threat, using a blue training grenade to infer that the vest will stop a real handgrenade, etc, are many examples of "lying". I rest my case.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 07:58 AM

Harnu you don't have any experience with armor so you have no valid points anyway.I however do and I know what is best for our servicemen.I had first hand experience with armor technologies and know that Intereceptor is here for at least ten years.

Posted by: William at May 3, 2007 01:57 AM

I'm back

William for the love of your credibility, your fellow countrymen fighting and dying, your country, and for truth, stop detracting Dragon Skin. It's better than the army issue, plain and simple. As you now know I was a contractor along with my buddy Wayne and we have experienced a level III and IV dragon skin vest (sov2000 and 3000). They are superior to army issue in terms of flexibility, comfort, and protection.

The men and women fighting and dying in Iraq are being issued inferior armor, and this is the truth. The military is just trying to preserve its contracts and other beaureucratic/monetary establishments. Its good to see they invented the Modular Tactical vest to replace the Interceptor Vest, but none of these come close to Dragon Skin. It's just the truth, and I can't explain it further.

This is an outrage that every serviceman/citizen should know about. The sabotage of the testing years ago and the false reporting by the media is absolutely disgusting to the lowest pit of my imagination.

Posted by: Harnu14 at May 3, 2007 12:21 AM

William how can you say that Pinnacle lied about Dragonskin?First of all what are the lies?Second of all, I belieive there is more evidence to support that it's testers lied and they should be indicted for treason and fraudulent claims.And who would care what anyone has to say that uses a crystal ball.Once again you've made yourself the ass of this forum.If your crystal ball would tell you anything it would say, "you know nothing of what you speak of" and that would be followed by try again later dipshit.I think it's quite clear that Dragonskin hasn't lied about their armor but what isn't clear is why it's military testers have made Dragonskin the most talked about armor ever.It is afterall their fault for the popularity of Dragonskin.If they didn't publicly diss Dragonskin then hardly anyone would know of it.It sounds like there could be a conspiracy to make Dragonskin sale the patents to their company and then have the government make the vests $10,000. a piece instead of $5000.00 a piece.

Posted by: Erica at May 2, 2007 11:17 PM

I was issued Dragon Skin by Pinnacle for a Law Enforcement Mission to Iraq in April and May of 2006. As a Vietnam Veteran (Mekong Delta - 1969) and law enforcement officer, I was concerned about the Army's old guard put-downs. I visited their facilities in Fresno, California and have seen first hand the results of actual testing and performance. It is absolutely superior to the Army's and this has the appearance of some retired general's getting cut out of revenue or something! Take Army Issue and Dragon Skin, any idiot can see side by side the improvement this fine company has made in the ballistic tests. I value each and every soldier and marine, they should have the best, and that is all we should be concerned about here! Brian "Doc" Burry

Posted by: Brian Burry at May 2, 2007 10:21 PM

William you're wrong. Pinnacle would never lie about their armor performance. Every threat on their ballistics chart, located in their web site, has been thoroughly tested and assured. Many of those rounds meet or exceed level IV threat specifications according to the MIL-SPEC. I'm joining the Dragon Skin bandwagon now, sorry Will. We had a good run.

Posted by: Hans at May 2, 2007 09:00 PM

I think that Pinnacle is in deep dukey for lying about their armor. My crystal ball says that the Army will be vindicated and Pinnacle will be indicted for fraud and treason. So much for a leap in technology.

Posted by: William at May 2, 2007 08:54 PM

Gunny rocks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMEIORtJ-DE

^ thats a video showing the flexibility and durability of Dragon Skin. They fire level III rounds (AK 47 bullet, otherwise known as the 7.62X39mm).

Posted by: Sean at May 2, 2007 03:27 PM

A full suit of Dragon Skin, level IV, full torso protection that only leaves out the shoulder straps (which are level IIIA) costs about 5000 dollars (depending on the webbing you choose to attatch to the vest, the camoflauge pattern, etc.

Dragon Skin SOV-2000 has already been NIJ certified level III. Dragon Skin SOV-3000 is currently being evaluated for level IV pass. They should be certifying it for level IV by the end of May at latest.

I understand your doubt that it has not been NIJ certified, but man, you see all those videos of the SOV-2000 taking that kind of punishment? I mean, 40 rounds from an AK and 120 9mm, and on top of that, the armor is flexible and has great weight distribution so it doesnt hurt your shoulders only. Pinnacle Armor, however, has never released a video showing their level IV dragon skin SOV-3000 being fired at with level IV rounds. Hopefully, after the SOV-3000 passes NIJ tests for level IV (by the end of this month), all doubt will be dispelled and all those accountable for endangering the lives of our men and women will be brought to justice. its pretty obvious that the tests were sabotaged in order to preserve contracts, jobs, monies, and reputation. Pinnacle wouldn't lie about the effectiveness of their armor.

I thnk the problem with dragon skin is that Pinnacle Armor, the company that makes it, is too small to mass-produce the armor. It would cost less than 5 billion in all likelihood for a contract of a million vests for the armed forces of the U.S., but producing that many vests would be a pain in the ass.

Posted by: Sean at May 2, 2007 03:24 PM

Do you know how much dragon skin armor is

Posted by: Terry at May 2, 2007 07:45 AM

Sean your point is well taken and you are pretty much right about the MTV.However it cannot be said by anyone right now that Dragonskin is better than the MTV or Interceptor because it simply has not been certified by NIJ or anyone else for that matter.The vest does seem very promising though and I support the development of any better armor.The problem is of course as we all know there seems to be a huge controversy over Dragonskin and it's testers.They should really get the ball rolling with these vests because if it is as good as it sounds it should really be a standard issue vest.My question is when the hell is "NIJ" going to test Dragonskin and will that even have an effect on our military's decision about it.I mean if it was unfairly tested and it turns out they just absurdly tested Dragonskin then someone needs to lose their job over this because this is bullshit that we are deploying to Iraq soon and there could be better armor for us.I like to think better of our military because I eat,breath,sleep and shit ARMY and I'll be damned if someone is going to decide what armor is better without being qualified or just has allterrior motives/prejudice towards something that could save thousands of lives.I too hope that Dragonskin will live up to it's promises but it seems like it's a long ways away from being America's standard issue armor.And to sum it up I don't know if it was a fairly tested armor or not but if it's as good as everyone thinks then it should be retested by different people who wouldn't sabbotage something and risk the loss of life just because they want to keep their wallets stuffed in self interest.

Posted by: Daniel SFC at May 2, 2007 02:36 AM

Let me make it simple:

MTV is basically an interceptor that can stop a bigger pistol bullet, offers a little bit more protection from shrapnel, and feels like it weighs a whole hell of a lot lighter than the interceptor. It's also more easy to function in because it was adapted to accomodate a rifle stock (simulating combat where the soldier aims). Other than that, its plates are the same as those of the Interceptor and thats pretty much it. An improvement, obviously. But better than Dragon Skin? No.

Posted by: Sean at May 1, 2007 07:01 PM

Daniel,

First off, thanks for serving. no matter what you say, we're all Americans and i'm glad you take the time to post here.
Now, down to business

the MTV utilizes the same kevlar soft armor as the interceptor, along with the same E-SAPI front, back, and side plates which are rated for level IV ballistic protection according to NIJ. It offers the same protection as the interceptor (but it does have an additional soft armor panel on the lower back, offering more protection against shrapnel).

You cannot say, however, that it is more durable than Dragon Skin. The MTV itself is designed to stop pistol and shrapnel, but not rifle. The plates for the MTV which can stop rifle rounds are inflexible and can only withstand 3 level IV impacts whereas dragon skin is completely flexible, has the same weight distribution benefits of MTV, and can take dozens of hits from level III and probably dozens from level IV (we will have to wait for NIJ to approve Dragon Skin for level IV protection)

At the moement, the Army will be getting this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Army_IOTV.jpg

updated interceptor.

the MTV is a leap over the interceptor, though. Its soft armor is level IIIA, because it can stop a .44 magnum, whereas the interceptor cannot be called that because it can't stop a 44 magnum. But, MTV still doesn't stand up to Dragon Skin.

Dragon Skin can be configured so that it stops rifle rounds (level IV protection) on all areas except for the shoulder fastener straps, which are only designed to be level IIIA (same as the soft armor of an MTV). As a result, it offers protection for your entire torso (aside from your shoulders) from armor piercing rifle rounds.

There've been many marines and soldiers who were shot by insurgents in the unprotected upper,lower back area, as well as the unprotected upper/lower/oblique chest area (by oblique, I mean all the area of body not covered by the ESAPI plate from a frontal view. I know that the side plates are now in action). Take Dragon Skin with you for now because its clearly superior than the Interceptor, and probably the MTV as well.

Posted by: Sean at May 1, 2007 06:58 PM

No Sean you are wrong the MTV's are going to be issued to ARMY as well and my Sgt. said it would be about a year before the MTV's would be issued.Sorry to rain on your parade of faulty knowledge but I happen to be in military and this vest is not just for Marines.The vest is more weight proportionate and is very durable probably more so than Interceptor and Dragonskin.The Interceptor will be used until the MTV's production meets the minimum requirement for mass production supply.

Posted by: Daniel SFC at May 1, 2007 03:52 PM

Erica,

MTV will only be issued for marines. the army is getting a new Interceptor. It's still the same as the old one basically. The only difference is it fits better and offers more soft armor protection (against shrapnel and pistol rounds) on the lower back.

sorry for the multiple posts.
carry on

Posted by: Sean at May 1, 2007 12:35 AM

Also Rocky

I respect your right for freedom of speech. However, freedom also encompasses the freedom to be a fool. Yes, you can say whatever your want, but that also means that you're free to make wrong decisions. The iraqis were given freedom, and they choose to wage war and destroy their own country through sectarian killing and ignorance/excessive pride. Case in point.
Don't hide behind an amendment that so many fought for and died to protect. Instead, honor their sacrafice and say something meaningful please. You're an American and we need to make leaps in order to regain our global credibility.

Posted by: Sean at May 1, 2007 12:33 AM

MTV is the same thing as the interceptor. Same protection, same plates, same THING except its 3 pounds heavier than the interceptor. On the flipside, its weight distribution makes it feel like its 20 pounds. therefore, its better than the interceptor, but not as good as Dragon Skin.

Also, Allah is not shit. Humans percieve their gods differently, and its all a part of humanity. Don't be an ignorant fool and close the door on a billion people; get the testicular fortitude to deal with people appropiately.

I agree that terrorists are idiots though. Note: terrorists do not include ALL insurgents in Iraq. many iraqis are just people who want the U.S. out. that's understandable- you can't go in someones country and raise hell by having a couple of incidents in prisons involving abuse and whatnot. Many of the insurgents aren't the murderous fools who behead people and want to establish a muslim government or w.e. They jsut want their country back so they can have a go at fixing it themselves (or destroying it).

Ignorance is what is driving many conflicts throughout the world today, and as long as you fail to resist it, Rocky, you only adding to the list of problems humanity faces in this time of global crisis (global warming, energy crisis, poverty, war). Clean yourself up.

Posted by: Sean at May 1, 2007 12:30 AM

Looks like we have some crazies in here today.However I'd like to talk about something relevant to body armor.The MTV is going to be our flagship armor and will soon replace all of the Interceptors if the in the field testing goes as planned.So I ask how does Dragonskin hold up to the MTV and where is William on how the MTV will hold up against the pros and cons of the Interceptor.To me it looks like Interceptor ain't even in the race of the future armor systems we use.

Posted by: Erica at April 30, 2007 10:30 PM

Allah=shit
Islamics=dirtier shits
Terrorists=sesspool shits with only dirt for food
And don't anyone try to violate my free speech rights by taking this off the forum.

Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2007 09:33 PM

Wayne you're a bit out of line with your statement but I can see where the thoughts are coming from.I mean "payoff for murdering our troops"is a little out there it's more like a raise for keeping supperior armor off our soldiers.In the meantime the MTV armor is a better replacement for the Interceptor and will soon be the standard military issue.So everyone who says/said that the Interceptor is supperior to all other armor have been proven wrong once again.

Posted by: Jim at April 30, 2007 09:22 PM

I wonder which traitorous, lying, thieving, Congresscritter or doucebag, on-the-take-with-a-promise-of-a-cushy-after-retirement-job scumbag General is getting a payoff for murdering our soldiers this time?

Typical.

Posted by: Wayne at April 30, 2007 05:02 PM

WHAT I FAILED TO REALIZE IS THAT DRAGON SKIN WAS TESTED UNFAIRLY BY THE ARMY AND THEREFORE "FAILED" TESTING. I ALSO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CAPS LOCK, AS YOU CAN SEE

Posted by: JOHN N. at April 30, 2007 03:12 PM

STOP ARGUING ABOUT DRAGONSKIN IF IT IS SUPPERIOR IT WILL ARGUE FOR ITSELF WHEN IT IS TESTED.BY THE WAY THERE ARE NEW VESTS BEING IMPLEMENTED RIGHT NOW AND YET NO ONE ON THIS FORUM HAS ANY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THEM.I BELIEVE THEY ARE THE, NOT SO MUCH TALKED ABOUT MTV'S THAT ARE AT LEAST A STEP UP FROM THE INTERCEPTOR.

Posted by: JOHN N. at April 30, 2007 01:20 AM

To all who doubt dragon skin, ask the individual soldier. they are the ones wearing body armor and fighting. from what I hear, they prefer dragon skin to IBA any day, any way, any where.

Posted by: Fake William at April 29, 2007 10:12 PM

Let me correct myself. Dragon Skin will recieve its level IV pass by the end of May, at the latest.

Posted by: William at April 29, 2007 10:11 PM

The GAO just released a report on Interceptor Armor you can see the abstract or read the full report. http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-07-662R

Anymore news on Dragon Skin testing in a real lab yet?

Posted by: William at April 29, 2007 09:42 PM

As a recent transferee from the RAF in the 40's I was almost court martialed for WAXING my Spitfire. It was my feeling that such an action would give me a higher speed and a longer range and contribute to my endeavor to survive WWII as a lowly Fighter Pilot. Besides I was your typical teenager California Boy!

Of course my next action was even worse. I removed four of the eight guns and their amunition. I also removed all the remaining guns tracer rounds and ball amunition. I left the incendary and armor piercing. My theory was reduce wing loading so I could turn faster. I did not want anyone of those highly qualified German Pilots flying a very nice ME 109, to be aware that I was shooting at them. Also as a normal typical American Kid I knew I had long ago figured out how to shoot quack quacks on the wing. The art of deflection shooting could be done without streaks of fire announcing my presance in the sky.

Yes nothing changes. I even mounted extra rear view mirrors in my cockpit. True I was a nervous Nelly. I really hated being shot up from the rear. But, guess what, here I am aged 85 and still alive.

Guys! Adjust, them in high places and attempting to market products always attack the simple good field solutions.

Cheers to all, Lucius, the long life chicken ex fighter pilot. Per Ardua Ad Asbestos!!!

Posted by: Lucius at April 29, 2007 06:33 PM

Fake Hans, you're right. You are an idiot. And atop that, I believe that Dragon Skin is the best armor that offers the best protection out there. Furthermore, I firmly believe that it should be given fair testing besides having some fool sabotage it for the sake of a slick military beaurocracy and contract.

Posted by: William at April 29, 2007 05:39 PM

Dragon Skin is made of cardboard and cannot stop an airsoft pellet travelling at 280 feet persecond. I am an idiot.

Posted by: Hans at April 29, 2007 01:52 PM

It does not matter if an individual is active duty, ex-military, never been in the military or even some dumba$$ Berkeleyite "hooray for the insurgency" moron, but anyone, and I DO MEAN ANYONE, who summarily dismisses anything as innovative as what Dragon Skin presents itself as in this case, without at least a cursory examination of the product, is either:

1) a damned thickheaded fool;
2) a moron and a tool; and/or
3) a recipient of some sort of "honorarium" at best or an outright kickback at worst from some defense contractor somewhere.

Period. End of story.

That's inarguable, so don't even set finger to key if your intent is to dispute that, because you are doomed to failure before you even start. I will clarify for the most hardheaded out there that I am not advocating examining products from "Uncle Leroy's Pertecktive Armor Reserch & Sales and Service & Tires Mounted and Balanced While-U-Wait", or the like, although you may well fall under one of the three dubious categories listed above if you are quick to dismiss anything without at least a perfunctory glance, but that's another thread. It's obvious at this point that any innovation that I am referring to above would surpass certain credibility standards obvious to anyone not suffering from gross mental defect or infirmity, and the product and case in point, Pinnacle's Dragon Skin, is a prime example. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER NO REASON AT ALL TO FAIL TO GIVE PINNACLE'S ARMOR A FAIR AND UNBIASED EXAMINATION.

The end result of proper, unbiased testing and examination should neither serve to vilify, nor to lend credence to, any opposing "predictions" or assumptions of quality, or lack thereof, except to those (on the "winning' side) that absolutely love to say "I told you so!". By that, I mean that I am in no way saying here that Dragon Skin is the absolute best way to go, nor am I saying it's the worst...nor any shade of gray between that black and white... I am not that stupid. I am defending the TEST, not the TESTED.

I do realize that some testing is being done, or has been done, and that any final decision in this issue is currently lost in a huge, convoluted mess of opposing opinion complicated by matters economic, partisan politics, greed, fear, and no small amount of voracious ego that wants nothing more than to be fed. Much of the credit for that fiasco can be attributed to the fact that some people involved in procurement for the military fall squarely under one or more of the three descriptions cited above.

Posted by: AmosMoses at April 29, 2007 04:40 AM

Hit Me

Posted by: Hans at April 28, 2007 11:55 PM

Dear William,

I am a contractor stationed in the Green Zone, Baghdad. My buddy and former squadmate, "Harnu14", informed me about this forum. Although you may think of him as an ex Army soldier, the fact of the matter is that he never served in the 82nd Airborne (or any military branch, for that matter). We were both contractors for a short period of time, then he decided to pursue another career on U.S. soil. We have both had experience with Dragon Skin Armor, level IV, SOV-3000. I wear a size medium, and it does not weigh over 30 pounds.

What "Harnu14" was trying to get at here was that he just wanted you to believe in Dragon Skin, so he deicded to cede some "ground". It, in reality, is 28 pounds for an SOV-3000, level IV, size medium, full torso wrap. And you can put money on that. If you don't believe me, e-mail pinnacle consulting at consulting@pinnaclearmor.com and ask them for the weight of the specified vest above.

For someone in the field like me, I don't care about the fact regarding who invented flexible armor (Allan Bain) or who invented Dragon Skin (Murray Neal). Not to say that I don't care about these people; I don't care about the schematics or the corporate/PR tieups between Pinnacle Armor and the government/military/whatnot.

Dragon Skin is a solid, flexible, comfortable, and reliable vest. In my three years here I have dived out of an ambushed vehicle, slapped my body around the streets of Baghdad, and been in a handful of smaller engagements. Dragon Skin has never fallen apart internally, and I can tell you that my movement is much less restricted as opposed to wearing plate armor. It allows warfighters to function ease and provides impressive protection from all small arms threats we encounter here. This is a great vest and I would take this with me into battle anywhere in the world.

I strongly recommend you see Dragon Skin for yourself. Pick it up, wear it, shoot it (if possible). Just familiarize yourself with it. It's a great product and its saved the lives of dozens of other contractors in the past 4 years.

Posted by: Wayne at April 28, 2007 01:19 PM

White power!

Posted by: Dravin at April 28, 2007 09:19 AM

LOL Fake Hans, thank you for using my name. Well, thanks because you hit the nail on the head. No modular vest gives you that protection as a fully rigged SOV 3000. No modular plate system and no modular DS-system. But standard issue body armor needs to be modular because it has to be mission tailored. So DS won’t become standard issue.
I have only one question about your post: Do run on your hands? Why makes a flexible vest you run faster? Better weight distribution makes it is easier to breathe over longer distances, right. But IOTV does that, too. Do you think SF and Rangers wear plate carriers because they are weak or stupid? Decreased weight= more speed. You have to find a mission tailored compromise between weight and protection. DS doesn’t offer that. Perhaps on your Pinnacle shooting range the 11lb weight difference doesn’t matter but in the field with your complete gear you’ll be quite happy to have some weight reduction. And actually that was the main argument for many DS-supporters, who opted for SOV2000 before realizing the sniper threat. Do you want to force all US-soldiers to wear a 34lb+ vest permanently and their combat gear? Sorry I doubt they will be that happy about your efforts to protect them. And those testimonials: Harnu weared a SOV2000 not 3000. So a comparisson is senseless. And perhaps you should compare to new IOTV and not the system that is currently replaced.
Gaps between plates: I posted about that before, so read it.
Believe me I wouldn’t buy any DS. I donnot have too much money, I don’t buy everything I see on TV and thus I believe in scalar design I won’t buy a vest right now, that hasn’t finished any neutral testing. And even after NIJ certification I wouldn’t buy it, because plate armor is for free and it does its job quite well.

@ David: Where are your youtube shooting videos? I somehow miss them.

Posted by: the one and only hans at April 28, 2007 08:33 AM

I have several friends that just came home a few months ago. Some of the stuff they tell me should not happen to anyone. If there is a better vest out there, let them wear it. The military should not stop them from using something that is better than their issue. Take care of our guys, they are taking care of us.

Posted by: Tony at April 28, 2007 02:12 AM

Has anyone heard about the new 25lb. vests that are being worn by a platoon that is stationed in Kuwait?I saw the story on the news this morning but couldn't find the controller in time to hear what company was making them.I did hear that there could soon be a permanent replacement for the Interceptor and it looks like there will be.I don't think it was Dragonskin so it could just be the MTV's I've been hearing about for a while.Anyways there seems to be changes coming about, and I hope that America's soldiers get the best because God only knows what they are going through,with all the media and anti-war crap that I hope they don't hear about.Our soldiers want to serve their country as best as possible and it is already hard enough to drive through the streets in Iraq not knowing if or when an IED is going to go off.I think this country needs to get on the same page as our military and see that since 9-11 this world has changed for the worse.We as a country have to stay the course and get some sort of order in Iraq because if we don't then it will be like Vietnam for this generation.Nam changed me in a way that is indescribable.I was divorced 6 times in the course of 8 years and have been a drug addict,an alchoholic,homeless,suicidal,borderline insane,incarcerated.I am just now enjoying the life I should have had when I came home from hell as I used to say.When you come home from any war the last thing you want to hear on the news is that people are protesting it and that the majority of the citizens are against it.I remember getting off a bus and being called every name in the book and to have that happen at a critical time in your life is very devastating,basicly it made me hate myself and go insane.I know this forum ain't for veterans issues so I'll just say this lets give our troops the best and treat them the way they want to be treated (like men/women who did their best)instead of protesting the war (which is every American's right-yet it is so wrong to protest a war and then turn arround and say "well we support the troops").The truth of the matter is you can't protest the war and support the troops at the same time.Because all that soldier sees is people protesting him or her doing the job that is his or her duty.Lets get our soldiers in battle, the greatest of everything and make sure they make it home safe.

Posted by: CARL at April 28, 2007 12:39 AM

If you shipped me to Iraq I would scurry over to pinnacle and buy the Dragon Skin SOV-3000 without any hesitation. I recommend you, William, to do so as well. The insurgents are aware of the enourmous gaps that comes with current military issue.

Here's why:
It fits better because its got good distribution, putting weight all through out the body.

It's flexible, so I will be able to chase guys down and lean more easily, which is great for urban combat.

It stops level IV rounds. Sorry guys, it's true.

It covers more area of the torso. No "modular" system can match the area protection of Dragon Skin.

Yes, some of you may be pansys and whine about its weight, but just remember that it is more comfortable than the standard issue, and that we have had a number of testimonials from users about its functionability and comfort (as opposed to standard military gear).

You talk the talk, but when you get called over to duty, you'll have to walk the walk.

Posted by: Hans at April 27, 2007 06:38 PM

???EDSDS??? If you don't give crap why did you post anything? That really makes a lot of sense, why do you even bother reading? LOL

Posted by: William at April 25, 2007 07:25 PM

allah is the greatest bitches

Posted by: ishmail at April 25, 2007 04:39 PM

Well said Hans. These guys have a warped sense of reality. There is no way you can convince me of the logic involved with saying heavier armor does not matter. Pinnacle's claims of superior armor will not stand up to scrutiny. In order to be superior, they will have to do it at the same areal density as the Interceptor armor weights, and the DS will not stop the AP at those weights. What do you have to say now there Fake William?

Posted by: William at April 24, 2007 06:26 PM

fake-William, I posted before and it was actually me who offered weights of different SOV3000 versions some time ago. Then look e.g. at the posts of David and e. E compared a fully rigged IBA to an SOV 3000 and said it weights 19lb. The other William asked for the weight of a fully rigged SOV3000 and David said size XL is 19,5lb. Perhaps you should start reading before critizising. And sorry your 19lb SOV3000 as I stated before has no fundamental supiority to ESAPI. Scalar design only makes sense if larger areas are covered.
Another point: I never said anything bad about NIJ testing. I only said that passing NIJ right now, doesn't proof any sabotage claims. And where do you get your insider-infos about specific sabotage claims? Sorry, but quoting some Pinnacle charts and press releases is like quoting Karl Masters. You can believe what you want but you can hardly show any sabotage claims as a fact.
And one little question: Why doesn't "my junk" (mini rifle trauma plates) work? I said that you can also get your greater coverage with other systems. They are tested and they stop level IV rounds. And as they are additional to your issued Body Armor, they are allowed to wear. So what are you critizising about this statement? Of course as greater coverage is concerned scalar design has several advantages. But you might have read some parts of my post before and I said, with some quite valid arguments that IOTV + plates are a good compromise as weight, price, mulit-hit capability, modularity and covarge are concerned. You can always add more armor for more weight and I said that adding armor and weight is clearly a matter of taste. I also stated that greater coverage is usefull in some situations and that SOV3000 is superior for some certain tasks. But for a general fielding it is not. I am not arguing against DS, I am arguing against wrong claims and hype. When Sean says he prefers a heavier vest for more coverage I say, well that's fine, it's your choice you know what you're up to do. But you should realize that chosing hard plate armor for standart issue isn't as dumb as you're saying.

Posted by: Hans at April 24, 2007 03:26 AM

No I like DS

Posted by: William at April 24, 2007 12:10 AM

Everyone who posts on this forum is a very educated unrelenting geniously inquisitive intellectually undvanced dreadfull uninsightful waste of useless information of nothinghess.Get a job/life/use/purpose/girlfriend/.To anyone who has anything to say shoot away because real huMANs don't give a shit about these "forums".AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: ???EDSDS??? at April 24, 2007 12:00 AM

LOL, hey fake William, NIJ Level IV only requires 1 shot, the military requirement is higher. Isn't it past your bedtime? You can go ahead and use your real name, or should I just call you the head cheerleader?

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 09:31 PM

@Hans again. If DS passes level IV tests, it says a lot more than what you could fabricate in your entire lifetime. NIJ level IV standards for flexible armor require six shots in a 10x12 configuration to be stopped whereas for the plates, only one shot. The quality of plate level IV armor is questionable, as is its flexibility, comfort, and durability. If DS can withstand level IV rounds, it can withstand level IV rounds. Not some junk that you make up. And, to the contrary, the tests were indeed sabotaged. 10/33 vests tested, rounds fired into soft portion of DS, testers playing crossword puzzles, claims that level IV armor failed to stop level IV rounds (military spec is what pinnacle uses to test its armor, Hans. Visit their ballistic chart on their web site)- sounds like they knew what the results would be before even getting to test it.

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 08:10 PM

And @Hans, yes. You indeed can purchase a 19.5 pound level IV DS. Take the time to look at their scale configurations before you question the validity of our statements.

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 08:05 PM

The last post was not made by me, it was yet another imposter. I do think that DS is promising, but the only way we will really find out if it stands up to the test is through level IV certification. Furthermore, it is clearly the case that termination of IBA contracts will result in loss of jobs, monies, and credibility between the Army/Marine Corps. and its suppliers. The armed forces is just a big money machine, and DS clearly exceeds the IBA in the task of providing comfortable, flexible, and superior protection for the troops. Hans, you would come to expect that an armor offering 44%level IV protection area would weigh marginally more than the IBA with its four uncomfortable/brittle/outdated plates.

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 08:03 PM

I just reviewed the independent test on the Pinnacle website conducted by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, is this the same guy who likes to argue with real trauma surgeons, I guess his background as a "dentist" prepares him with special insight that trauma surgeons don't have. He is a link where some real surgeons are questioning Dr.Robert's findings about the use of ballistic gelatin. http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875 Maybe Pinnacle should have made a better choice when looking for someone to conduct independent tests. Maybe we are seeing a pattern of behavior here where this crowd has found another reality that the rest of us are just too stupid to see.

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 07:04 PM

SPC Roger, in how far are 53% of all gunshot wounds not to the plates? Does that mean that 47% of all gunshot wounds are because of penetrated plates? Sorry but I think you mixed something up.
Do you quote the old USMC report or is there new anything new? The old report isn't valid any longer because of axillary plates and ESAPI. Something new would be really interesting. A link would be usefull, because numbers in percent posted here are useless. Some guy before posted that 80% of all lethal torso wounds were near plates. But as the main portion of the torso is already covered with hard armor it's quite logic that nearly all torso wounds are near plates. It would be really nice to know where exactly the hits are and if they were deadly or not.
Another point Roger:Yes of course insurgents don't want to hit the plates. Snipers try to hit weak spots like shoulders, upper chest/back, throat, head, hip, lower abdomen. But most of those areas wont be covered by SOV3000, too. And snipers would addapt their tactics quickly. That is as sniping is concerned. You say, you're a soldier, so you should know that during a firefight, you hardly aim for gaps in body armor. You are more likely to spray bullets or aim for center mass, dependending on situation. So during firefights you hit plates or gaps just as statistics are concerned. The choice between weight and protection in this case is a matter of taste, hardly a fact.
Another point you don't get is that you don't need DS for greater rifle-protection. Right now the discussion is only about weight and coverage, because most other features of SOVs were either non-existent or unimportant. You can get larger coverrage, and somehow flexibility by adding mini rifle trauma plates. Why don't you buy them? You can add them right now. That's cheaper, modular and you are allowed to wear it.
It's also very funny, that most guys here claimed before that DS would be a great weight reduction and that this is sooooo important, because insurgents outrun our troops and our soldiers and Marines are overloaded. Well, as SOV2000 is penetrated by SVD etc. and heavier SOV3000 (of course after some guy claimed that it weights 19,5lb before the real weight appeared more often) is needed you say: "hoho you are to weak to carry 8lb more". First you shouldn't compare to the old IBA. With IOTV it is about 11lb difference and it has a better fit than old OTV, too. Second as a soldier you should know that you can always carry additional stuff. So why doesn't every soldier get a M203 and AT4? That would really add some firepower. And of course you wear your moonsuite, because most casualties are caused by IEDs. Oh yeah, and some guys here also want DS boots and helmets. Statistically fatalities will be reduced by that and you feel a lot safer.

So I state again: Yes, there is an use for scalar design. And yes in some situations it is clearly superior to current IBA. And yes you may be able to wear the additional weight. But as a general fielding is concerned, newer IBA variants are better suited because of costs, weight, logistics, modularity etc.
As a contractor doing convoy security or so I guess DS is better, but as a standart item IBA is better suited.
What fascinates me is that people are so fanatic about DS, thus it is clearly not a "quantum step" in armor technology as claimed. And sorry again but I ask myself why the hell do people think that the army sabotaged the DS testing? On the one hand there is a body armor manufactor who wants to sell his stuff. On the other hand there is the US Army and Marine Corps. Of course corruption occurs and Karl Masters I-net posts are strange, but there isn't any proof for active sabotage. If a car fails a crash test you normaly blame the car not the testers. And even if it passes NIJ right now, it says nothing, because Army testing is different and quality problems that may have occured back then can be solved right now. So please calm down and start thinking again.

Posted by: HAns at April 23, 2007 06:27 PM

I said that I think the Army unfairly assigns higher risk ratings when evaluating small companies, especially when a very large part of the time the work is awarded to a large company and then actually done by small companies that the Army considers high risk.

Pinnacle is a different story. They have been in business for over a decade. You cannot consider them a developing company. A company is considered a startup for the first 5 years. Pinnacle is way beyond that window.

Historically, bomb fragments have been the largest casualty produce on the battlefield. Nothing has changed. You like to quote numbers, how many of our guys have been killed by rifle fire versus bomb fragments? Pinnacle has used the Marine Corps report as a marketing campaign. I find this tactic disgusting.

After 10 years of product development, why don't they have any industry recognized certifications. They have certainly spent enough money shooting vests for videos and the discovery channel. They could have had the vests certified years ago and then we would not be having this conversation.

Posted by: William at April 23, 2007 07:42 AM

William you admit that the government unfairly asseses awarding developing companies large production contracts.William here is a fact (something rare to you)over 53% of all gunshot wounds in Iraq are not to the plates in the vests.The insurgents have found out the weak spots of the system and are aiming specificly for areas of less protection.Dragonskin could thwart their efforts by putting more protection all arround the soldier instead of the using a plate system.I mean get real, do you really think an insurgent is going to aim for the plate?This ain't target practice it's life or death.I can't wait until Dragonskin is passed by NIJ.William you are the only one saying more weight is a very bad drawback.It to me is the smallest drawback I've ever heard of.You may want to hit up your local gym because you sound like a 95 pounder who thinks we can't carry weight.

Posted by: SPCRoger at April 23, 2007 02:03 AM

The military, or at least key parts of it, has been pretty dismal in the past at admitting it was wrong. Thus "bureaucratic inertia" has been common historically.
For example the copper cased 45-70 ammo of the Indian wars, people died but the higher ups had decided it was good so it was good, dead troopers was not sufficient reason for them to admit it was inferior to commercial ammo with brass cases.
Then there was the 50%+- unreliable torpedo used for about 1/2 of WWII.
The only thing that made the Sherman tank a success was that it did not break down as much as the German panzers and we could make them fast enough the enemy could achieve a 10-20 to 1 kill ratio and still be faced with Shermans.

The bean counters refused to listen to Colt concerning propellant powders for the M-16 and people died.

Thus one must wonder if the DS is being disregarded because it really is not that good or because someone thinks his rep might be damaged by admitting DS is better.
Its going to require field testing to settle this. Lab tests of brand new vests are not the real world.
Issue them to training commands if nothing else and see how they standup to constant wear & tear and if they retain their protection level.

Posted by: D Phariss at April 23, 2007 12:32 AM

I can't believe that you are so gullible to believe the conspiracy crap about awarding of contracts. I do believe that the government does unfairly assess the risks of awarding smaller companies large production contracts, but other than that, I don't believe for a minute with all the political pressure to get the troops better equipment that the Army would or could get in the way of a new armor technology. Like I have said before, platelet armor is not new, it is just new to you. The mulit-hit capabilities have been well known, and that is exactly how most vehicle armor achieves multi-hit. The closer the shot spacing the smaller the armor tiles. I have seen 1" tiles used. No one has been willing to accept the 30% increase in armor weight and costs. The Russians used this technology in the 80's for their troops in Afghanistan, in fact they had three successive upgrades to the technology during the war against the Mujihadeen. So you can shout at the top of your lungs about "new" technology. I will continue to point out that it is not new or novel, just a different way to make body armor. Every armor system has trade offs. Nothing is free, Dragon Skin pays a weight penalty to get a mulit-hit capablity. I know they are not using the lightest ceramic available which is Boron Carbide, so if their armor weight is not at least 30% heavier than certified armor they do not have enough tile thickness for the Armor Piercing threats involved. You can stick you head in the sand if you want to, but physics are still physics. Since everyone keeps saying DS will stop AP how about making one of those fancy videos you all like to show off so much using real AP bullets.

Posted by: William at April 22, 2007 06:58 PM

William your wrong in the sense that the interceptor vest can stop high velocity bullets, as it simply cannot. The plate you insert into the vest is the one stopping the bullets not the vest itself. These plates are cumbersome, rigid and doesnt cover enough of the body. Some soldiers have also said that they tend to get destroyed after a burst. These plates save lives and are standard in most vests today, but the future in personal defence is here and lives are at stake. The dragon skin covers most of the body with its disk shaped plates. The dragon skin has been tested with armor piercing 7.62 NATO rounds. The ONLY reason why the soldiers arent allowed to buy and use these vests is because the goverment or defence department has a contract with the company that makes the interceptor and they dont want to endanger that contract is that means a huge loss of money, even though that means the death of hundreds or thousands of soldiers lives. Money is more important then lives to the ones in power.

Posted by: Brian at April 22, 2007 05:22 PM

If you spend the same amount of time researching body armor as you do before you buy an Ipod. You will see that Dragon Skin is over hyped, too heavy, and maybe offers marginal improvements over the issued Interceptor vest. You can spend $5ooo bucks for a DS vest or use the free Interceptor vest. The Interceptor definitely stops Armor Piecing bullets, the DS still does not have an AP certification. Plus if you buy it, you will be out the money if you unit will not allow you to use it. I think you would be better off buying the thingss you need and wait and see if DS can get ceritifed.

Posted by: William at April 21, 2007 10:46 PM

first off Does the vest ever expire? I don't know if you know that other vest have an expiration date on them. Once you wear it you usually have like one year to replace it even if you do not get shot in it>
second the cost?

Posted by: jonny at April 21, 2007 09:41 PM

Fuck yeah jens and BIG it's about time someone came to their senses I mean all these pussies talking about weight and specific bullets are dillusional and probably aren't in military or even know anyone in military.All I'm getting at is everyone I have talked to say that it is f-ing awesome and very reliable for anything it comes up against.I've got mine and am preparing to use it in battle.I don't know where anyone heard that their vests are being confiscated because hell, there is a shortage of armor right now and my friends and I were told if you have a vest bring it.I'm putting my life on the line with the best military in the world so if I'm buyin my own armor it's gonna be Dragonskin.I just wish I had heard about it before my first deployment.

Posted by: SPCRoger at April 21, 2007 04:25 AM

Dragonskin is the best and if you mess with the best you die like the rest.To all non-supporters of Dragonskin you should die of gonorhea and rot in hell.SEMPER FI

Posted by: BIGMF at April 21, 2007 04:10 AM

My brother is an active duty Marine, I'm a Navy veteran, my father is retired Air Force, my uncle is retired Navy and my grandfather is an Army veteran. I say all this because everything I've read and seen about this body armor says that it IS the next generation of protection that our troops need. I'd rather see my brother come home from deployment shaken and alive than horizontal and dead.

I believe that the reason the Army and now the Marine Corp are shooting down (no pun intended) Dragon Skin is that the generals in charge of these projects are either the same ones that were in charge of the Bradley or their protoges and no longer have any sense of loyalty to the troops but rather to their own pet projects. In other words, they didn't think of it so they don't want it.

Posted by: Jens Hill at April 21, 2007 03:32 AM

pinnaclearmor.com

then call them up. their number is on their site. you can consult with them what kind of body armor you want, and how high level the protection is, and how much area of the body armor will be covered with the Dragon Skin itself (Dragon skin is made of soft armor kevlar but with the hard flexible shell that it is known to have). all areas that are not covered by dragon skin are level IIIA soft armor.

Posted by: Sean at April 20, 2007 06:40 PM

I inquired if anyone knew where i could get a Dragon vest.I am also in a line of duty, although it's only a police officer.I don't have a vest due to the fact our dept. is out of them, plus they're heavy to wear since they're heavily lined.Thats why i inquired if anyone knew where i might could get a DS vest..but i'm also told they cost $2100.00 each so that leaves me out. I'm a single mom w/3 kids to raise so moneys tight...that leaves me out........thanks for all your kind responses and noticing a female officer was on here asking for information.....but nevertheless...if you're in my area, i'll still keep protecting you to the best of my ability!! Patti

Posted by: patti at April 20, 2007 11:41 AM

Yeah it's pretty stupid that all people want to do is diss Dragonskin.I mean get real who on any public forum would have any usefull knowledge about armor in general.This forum has now been designated for wannabe experts and dumb-shit know nothings.People who do work with or have worked with armor don't care about these forums because they have better things to do.When I stumbled upon this forum I thought it would be refreshing to give everyone out there a real American man's perspective without all the pitter patter b.s. that everyone else likes to spew.

Posted by: Bobby at April 20, 2007 01:21 AM

Ok this forum is getting crapped on pretty badly. I'm gona stop visiting this site. I'm telling you guys right now, being someone who has worn the military issue for years and who has worn Dragon Skin for an hour, Dragon Skin is just better. Plain and simple. And unless you've gotten your hands on one, don't try to tell me that its heavy, or it falls apart internally, or whatnot. Thats bullshit, how the hell do you make a level IV armor fall apart? Did you run it over with a truck just so that you could say that DS sucks on some online forum? How come my buddy who is in a high-threat situation daily, riding in an unarmored SUV, doesn't have his dragon skin all crushed up internally? It's not the vest's fault. He';s been using his since 2003.

I can't believe the uselessness of this in-depth discussion. Wear it and find out what I'm talking about. Draogn Skin's ballistic chart on pinnacle's site are in accordance to MILITARY standards, and it is highly unlikely that someone would tout their body armor as level IV without having it pass tests, otherwise they'd be sued 1000 times over.

Posted by: Harnu at April 19, 2007 09:59 PM

Once again someone has posted using my old post name.These are not my viewpoints but they are similar so in a way I am on their side.However I never knew of anyone with the Dragonskin because if I did I would have never have asked for weights/measurements.Also I don't believe I could have a friend who's armor is falling apart internally if I don't know anyone with the armor.

Posted by: Bill a.k.a William at April 19, 2007 09:16 PM

Phil, one should remember when you point your finger at someone that three are pointing back. Everyone has jumped on the Dragon Skin band wagon and think there is a government conspiracy to keep it from the troops. I am sure now that there has been some congressional inquiries into this matter that Pinacle's armor will be found wanting. I had a buddy call me today about DS and a some of the guys who have been wearing DS are finding the vests coming apart internally. So before everyone starts talking about inferior, we should see what happens to DS when it is actually used in the field for an extended time period. I think Pinacle's problems are just beginning.

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 07:07 PM

I hope anyone who supports dragonskin can deal with the casualties that come from it.Dragonskin is not up to par with Interceptor at all.

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 06:49 PM

From now on I (William) will be posting by the name Bill so if you see anything posted by william it is not me.

Posted by: Bill at April 19, 2007 06:45 PM

Micheal, I already questioned the validity of the grenade test as shown on the show since the grenade is actually a "Training" grenade that was rigged with some type of explosive versus a real HE grenade. The same goes for the demonstration of stopping power against rifle threats. They have not shot one Black Tip Armor Piercing bullet in any of the videos. Standard soft armor without the plates will stop the 9mm submachine gun, even hundreds of rounds so that demonstration is not overly impressive either. If you have never seen armor shot then the wow factor is high the first time you see it.

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 06:34 PM

In the late 70's I was new to a local volunteer fire department. Some guys bought their own insulated leather gloves and insulated bunker pants. One of the chiefs told the guys to stop wearing them because they were not approved. What was approved was red uninsulated rubber gloves and pull up rubber doots. These offered very little protection. Now very similar gloves and pants are the gold standard in the fire service. Moral of the story: If it's not the administrations idea and the individual doesn't follow established procedures the equipment must be bad.

Posted by: Tim at April 19, 2007 06:06 PM

Why does every moron get on line and diss everything? All that is important is that PPE or "Body Armor" does the job. It doesn't take a genius to know whether or not a paricular type of "Body Armor" does the job. Does it stop AK-47 Rounds? Does it stop fragments from a grenade? Does it stop fragments from IED? Does it stop 9mm bullets? Does it do the above at realistic distances from the wearer and does it weigh a realistic and acceptable weight?

What is important are the G.I.'s and Marines wearing the "Body Armor". Any body who is more interested in profit or kick backs for some product that does not do the job should be made to walk the roads and highways in Iraq where so many men and women risk their lives for us wearing the inferior product they allow to be issued to our young and very brave soldiers and Marine? Disagree with me? Then you walk the dangerous paths we send are children who have volunteered to serve their country and protect us to walk.

Posted by: Chicago Phil at April 19, 2007 05:53 PM

I hope the jerk who is using the same online name as mine is having a good time. Since "my" posts merely pointed out some irrefutable facts about DS, you obviously feel you have to put words in my mouth by posing as me, so that you can try to discredit what I have posted. Nice try, but this will only help discredit the company and product you are trying to sell. It is starting to look like there is no tactic too low for them to use.

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 05:53 PM

Why does every moron get on line and diss everything? All that is important is that PPE or "Body Armor" does the job. It doesn't take a genius to know whether or not a paricular type of "Body Armor" does the job. Does it stop AK-47 Rounds? Does it stop fragments from a grenade? Does it stop fragments from IED? Does it stop 9mm bullets? Does it do the above at realistic distances from the wearer and does it weigh a realistic and acceptable weight?

What is important are the G.I.'s and Marines wearing the "Body Armor". Any body who is more interested in profit or kick backs for some product that does not do the job should be made to walk the roads and highways in Iraq where so many men and women risk their lives for us wearing the inferior product they allow to be issued to our young and very brave soldiers and Marine? Disagree with me? Then you walk the dangerous paths we send are children who have volunteered to serve their country and protect us to walk.

Posted by: Chicago Phil at April 19, 2007 05:51 PM

Unless the tests of Dragon Skin shown on the "Weaponology" television program were faked it is very capable. Most dramatic was the test where Dragon Skin protected against the blast of a grenade in a situation where one wearing the vest had fallen on a live grenade. Liklely the militay bureaucracy is in bed with the current manufacterers who do not want to lose their contracts.

Posted by: Michael McKeown at April 19, 2007 09:12 AM

Where can i get a DragonSkin vest and does anyone know the approximate cost of one? I'm a police officer but our dept. don't have any spares plus the ones issued are pretty heavy... thanks

Posted by: patti at April 19, 2007 08:59 AM

An imposter is posting on this forum.Anyhow I discovered that Dragonskin will be going through NIJ testing and it could be a few weeks before the results are made public.I don't think it will pass.What about you?Do you think dragonskin would pass a test that has less standards than our military?By the way Harnu14 I don't want to date you anymore.You took it too far when you craped on my genitals.

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 02:57 AM

Harnu I can't believe the $hit these idiots are posting.It's always gay this gay that and they never have anything to say about the pros-cons of dragonskin.They are so retarded that they can't even come up with reasons why dragonskin should be endorsed by military/police.A bunch of fags.By the way what are you doing saturday night.lol!!!

Posted by: William at April 19, 2007 12:41 AM

Hey buddy, I'm not here to diss dragon skin. I believe in its protection and superiority over current army stuff because I have worn both the current military issue and the DS. I'm trying to argue in favor of giving Dragon Skin to our troops.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 18, 2007 11:51 PM

C'mon Harnu14 you're my only friend.By the way are you gay too?

Posted by: William at April 18, 2007 10:53 PM

I did however make this post: Dragonskin is very controversial and should be because it has recieved a bad name in the media.I can't say whether it was fairly tested but it couldn't have been too unfairly tested becuause there are standards for that sort of thing.I mean they wouldn't just shoot the shoulder straps for thirty seconds and then just diss it publicly.There would have been protocalls to follow that are supervised by expereinced specialists like I was.

Posted by: William at April 18, 2007 10:50 PM

An impostor has posted the last post in an attempt to stir things up. I did not make the post.

Posted by: William at April 18, 2007 08:30 PM

I'm no expert and really have never had any experience with Dragonskin or any other armor for that matter.I guess what I'm getting at Harnu is that Dragonskin can't be as good as it is said to be when even a someone like me can discredit it and not be challenged by someone who does have knowledge of ballistics and armor.This is my own online experiment to see how gullable Dragonskin enthusiasts really are.

Posted by: William at April 18, 2007 03:27 AM

They do have 17 pound level IV vests. Those vests have their standard coverage configuration (remember, they have tons of configs. the best is called Full Torso Wrap, covers the entire torso except for shoulder straps). The standard coverage offers the same front and back coverage as the ESAPI plates do, plus additional lower torso coverage. It doesn't guard the sides though.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 17, 2007 10:23 PM

Thanks Harnu for the info. I don't understand why Pinnacle plays hide the salmi when it comes to specifications. They take the approach of "its the best, just buy it". This is the reason I was asked by some of my buddies to check this out for them and report back if i thought DS was worth the money. Especially since none of the services have bought this and Pinnacle upset the apple cart for everyone, then they failed the Army test. I understand that platelet armor has tremendous multihit capabilities, I also know that it has a built in weight penalty. My knowledge of the industry and armor materials made me extremely skeptical of Pinacle's claims about 17 pound level IV vests. I can see the possibility of a 36 lb vest achieving level IV stopping power. Now it just needs to be tested in a formal environment so it can be verified. Pinnacle has put themselves at a disadvantage by not putting their armor out for 3rd party scrutiny before now. their methods for engaging the Army has caused many people to not be able to use the armor they paid for themselves. So they not only screwed their own customers ability to buy more DS and use it but they also screwed all the other commercial manufacturers as well. A lot of my SF buddies were using whatever armor the felt met their mission profile, now they "have" to wear the complete issued armor system. Many of them are not real pleased with Pinnacle and another manufacturer who also caused a stink by claiming that SOF armor was defective, since they forced the commands to make a decision, now everyone has to tow the line. I have quite a few friends who currently work doing security work in Iraq and Afghanistan, several of them have asked me about DS. I encountered so much smoke and mirrors, and you would think that a company trying to sell a product would want to provide accurate information so customers would buy their product. I have never had this experience before when trying to find out about a product. I got the run around from Pinnacle, so I when I saw all the news announcements from Defense Review, Defense Tech, etc, all spinning the same thing with the videos, and could not get straight answers I became very sceptical and I have followed many of the forums to see what info was out there. I have not seen one real AP bullet fired in any of the videos, including the discovery channel videos. The one that really got me going was the blue training grenade. I had to throw the bull$hit flag when I saw that one. The guy on the Discovery channel is an ex-SEAL and should have known better. I now question whether he is on Pinnacle's payroll or is just friggin incompetent.

Time will tell if Dragon Skin makes it in the market or not. Thanks Harnu for the info, at least there is one honest guy on this forum.

Posted by: William at April 17, 2007 08:05 PM

Just to be sure about these measurements, I have contacted Pinnacle's consulting department via e-mail. I'll have the reply by tomorrow morning.

William,

You once served in the military. Why not try to get your hands on a DS and keep it as a souvenier? I don't think you can really judge it by its weight. Once you wear it you'll know why I believe that this vest should replace the Interceptor/MTV.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 17, 2007 05:58 PM

For the level III config, both the full torso wraps (front adn back) weigh 8.97 pounds. Since there's two of those, and since the vest total is 28.6 pounds, the soft armor portion under the scales is 10.66 pounds. It turns out that the vest had a walkie talkie and tracking device clipped to it when first weighed.

As to the SOV-3000, it has been re-weighed and was not altered (they had it right the first time). My buddy said the vest has come out to be 36.8 pounds (and, I have asked him to triple-check this). The reason why it weighed more last time was from sweat, he said.

So recalculated weights and these I have double checked with him are the vests themselves, not carrying anything on them.

Recalculated weights

SOV full wrap (max protection) level III
28.6 IBs

SOV full wrap level IV
36.8 pounds

both sizes medium
these have been triple checked

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 17, 2007 05:32 PM

Frankly, I hope that's not the reason the Army rejected it.

When I picked up the Sov-2000 i can almost promise you it didn't feel like it was even 30 pounds. Perhaps the vest weight I was given had ammo or sweat or something. It was heavier than the Interceptor, but It didn't feel too terribly heavy. Anyway, I was OK with the weight, it was fair enough for the amount of extra protection I was getting. I'll consult with my buddy again to confirm, and I'll get back to you on the weight. Anyways,

After a while, though, you get used to it (as you do with all body armor) and it really isn't hard to work in. I'd tell you it was easier to transition from firing positions because it was flexible, and the arms definitely had a greater unimpeded range of motion. Again, I don't know the exact area coverage, but it's easy to remember (visually) because you can see the scales poking out of the vest somewhat. There weren't many gaps. I'll e-mail my buddy about that too.

If its too heavy for you, you can always configure it so that there is only a 10x12 panel of dragon skin. There are many different configurations of scale coverage, some that are less than what the interceptor offers, and a lot of configs that offer more. That would significantly cut the weight, provide protection vs rifle rounds, and the soft armor portion of the dragon skin (which is layered below the scales as a trauma layer) is IIIA, whereas the interceptor's cannot be called that because it cannot stop a .44 magnum round.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 17, 2007 05:06 PM

Harnu, by the weights and measures presented on this website, the Army's ESAPI plates, side plates and OTV in size medium weigh 25.7 lbs and the Dragon Skin in size medium weighs 37.3 lbs. This makes the Dragon Skin 11.6 lbs heavier than the Interceptor for level IV protection. This is the 30 percent factor I was discussing earlier. Is the multi-hit increase really worth the 11.6 lbs weight penalty. This also means that the Interceptor Level IV is actually lighter than the Dragon Skin Level III since the Interceptor weighs 25.7 lbs and the SOV 2000 weighs 31 lbs. I would like to see an actual measurement of hard armor coverage between the two vests. That would settle the argument about the added weight. If Interceptor has the same amount of hard armor coverage and is lighter than Dragon skin, then how can Dragon skin be better? This may explain why Pinnacle relies on their videos so much. And it would also explain why the Army rejected DS, since they cannot compete with Interceptor when it comes to the weight penalty. What do you think?

Posted by: William at April 17, 2007 12:49 AM

Harnu, thank you for your sincere answer. William

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 10:52 PM

Another thing is how much armor is enough armor? We are really argueing about a few inches of armor coverage. This is an emotionally charged situation because our guys are under fire. But the reality is that their is a limit of how much armor a person can carry. The arguement is used that DS gives a little more protection than interceptor, and if this was the issue armor some more people would be around that were killed when they were shot just outside the SAPI plate. This is a true statement. But you still have many more areas of the body that will cause a casualty and DS does not cover those either. Specifically, the head and neck area, the groin area and the femoral arteries along you femur bones in you legs. You would need at least 100 lbs of armor to begin to cover all these critical areas. Everyone has gotten worked up on this emotional issue and Pinnacle lit the fuse. I think that this has become a big distraction over some more important issues, namely that the guys need some real fire protection from the burns that many more people are receiving than are being killed by the few bullets that miss the ceramic armor. The terrorists have already started shooting at the areas that do not have armor, so even if DS were fielded tomorrow it won't make that big of a difference. I think that a good fire resistant undergarmet will save more guys than changing the armor will. But you guys can fight this battle if you want to, but I think that Pinnacle has made this a losing political battle even if they prove their armor has great capability. We should probably use our energy to get fire protection for the guys.

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 10:49 PM

A side note

both the vests I listed do include the weight for a neck protector and shoulder protectors(Level IIIA).

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 16, 2007 10:42 PM

I have contacted my buddy via e-mail and he has weighed his vest and has even provided us with the weight of a SOV-2000 that one of his friends is also wearing. Note that these are for maximum area configs. (If yo uare wondering, they are stationed in Green Zone, Baghdad).

I have no clue as to the exact coverage area, but the part of every fully configured dragon skin vest that doesn't have the scales is the shoulder straps. Everything else is covered. You can configure the area of coverage to meet your needs, so the coverage and weight will vary. As to weight,

SOV-2000 level III, full torso wrap (most area possible covered), Size Medium

=31.5 pounds for level III with maximum protection/coverage.

SOV-3000, full torso wrap for front and back (most area possible), level IV, Size Medium.

=37.3 pounds for level IV maximum area protection

So as you can see, the SOv-3000 is heavier than SOV-2000 at the same size. There is your info William.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 16, 2007 10:33 PM

Ok, I will bite. Look at all my posts on this site and then tell me one time where I am incorrect. Please use facts and not somebody's opinion. No I am not a government agent, they don't pay enough. I was poor when I was on active duty, now I make a good living. I think Dragon skin is promising. Go look at my posts, all I have done is asked questions, which still go unanswered. You guys keep hurling insults, but nobody ever answers the questions. This is the same tactic used by liberal democrats, just avoid the questions and yell louder. Again, I ask how much does DS weigh and how much coverage per vest size? This is a simple question. Do all you guys work for Pinnacle?

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 09:42 PM

P.S.

I do not know how much DS weighs. But I'd like to re-iterate the fact that it feels lighter and is easier to function in.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 16, 2007 09:18 PM

William I cannot believe you continue to troll this site and try to misinform these people. I have repeatedly told you that I was once down range, and having worn both the interceptor and Dragon Skin, I'd tell you that I would feel a hell lot safer with Dragon Skin. You have never worn Dragon Skin. Let me tell you why I'd choose dragon skin over the Interceptor standard issue anyday.

By the way, the one i wore was an SOV-3000 with full torso wrap for both front/back, MARPAT camo, and level IV protection.

1. Dragon Skin covers more area of the torso with level IV scales. So if you shot in the huge gaps that E-SAPI plates leave out, you're going home safe and sound.

2. Dragon Skin is more flexible, and I'll tell you it doesn't feel as heavy as it weighs. Weight distribution is incredibly effective. It would be much easier to chase down some kid who just popped an IED if wearing DS rather than Interceptor OTV, hands down.

3. Better durability. They can take more hits than ESAPI plates. No need for further explanation, that's common sense.

I know of an incident where a couple guys from the 3rd ID were on patrol, and were ambushed. The soldier who was shot was hit in the gut just under the plate, and was killed. This was in Anber Province. Had he been wearing Dragon Skin, he would have lived.

William I seirously do not see why you are doing this. Are you some agent sent by the government to dispell the truth and to continue to allow the Army to keep its contract with a manufacturer who makes inferior armor to our troops? This is disgusting, what you're doing. There's absolutely no doubt that Dragon Skin is capable of stopping level IV rounds. Independent testing is enough to prove it, but unfortunately, it is not good enough for people like you and the majority of armed forces and police precincts.

I see Pinnacle's NIJ testing as a positive step to finally getting the truth out.

Guys, take this from a soldier's perspective.
Dragon Skin is superior to any other body armor fielded in the military. Better protection, better mobility, and better comfort will make a better warfighter.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 16, 2007 09:15 PM

P.S. I have been told that there are severe problems with unintentional cut-a-ways with the Eagle vest carrier. This is the carrier fielded to Special Operations and they are having to tie knots in the release cable to keep their armor from coming off in a firefight. Eagle copied the design of Paraclete's patented vest, got sued, then negotiated a license agreement. So you are getting a poor copy of the original. I have no connection to Paraclete either. I just call them as I see them.

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 07:38 PM

Hey Marine, thank you for your service. I have a healthy dose of skepticism when a company can't get simple things correct. Go look at their website and look where they state that they exceed the fragmentation standards of MIL-P-46593A. Guess what this MIL standard is? It ain't a frag test, that is for sure. This MIL STD describes the actual FSP fragment simulator itself, it does not specify the test used by any military in the world. Our military specifies MIL STD 662F which is the test protocol. Nato uses STANAG 2920 as one of their specifications for frag testing specifications. This type of claim will look official to the lay person, but to someone trained in the art it is a big neon sign flashing, "I don't know what I am doing so I will put some official sounding military stuff on here". So far I have generally asked questions about the actual weights of the armor, and this has not really been answered satisfactorily. The cheerleader section has conceded that DS is heavier that Interceptor, but has yet to put actual weights of each size vest and the surface areas they protect. I have tried to keep this from getting petty and nitpicking. I can assure you that you don't know what you don't know about armor. I don't think many armor companies consider DS a threat to their market share. DS may eventually find a niche in the market. But they still have to get some certifications, and if they want to sell to the military they will still have to pass all the required tests. What I hope to achieve is that if you intend to purchase this armor you should ask to see some conclusive proof beyond what has been made available to the public to date.

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 07:18 PM

William do you work for Pinnacle?How would you know if Pinnacle is trying to work with everyone or not?What is your problem with this company?What is your life like because it sounds like you do nothing but post on this forum.You should work for Fox because you sure know how to spin statements arround.I think defense technology could advance by leaps and bounds if the people testing it worked to develop it instead of dissing it and just writing it off as if it has nothing at all to offer.There are advancements in Dragonskin that I don't see in the Interceptor or the new MTV.You should really rethink your opinion because no one can say for sure if Dragonskin is better or worse.It's a matter of opinion only, at this point and this far you can't say it's not going to pass NIJ standards because they haven't released anything yet.Also it is a matter of opinion that this forum gives you any credentials as to say whether it is good or not.So far we'll have to see whether it passes the NIJ standards and then gets approved by police agencies and military.You can't say it won't anymore than I can say it will.That is a matter of the sabotaging done by the army that made it so controversial.And by doing that millions more people know about Dragonskin than if they had just wrote it off.I guarantee you didn't hear of Dragonskin until it was publicly dissed and don't give me any of that "I was an armor expert" fony bullcrap.No one cares what you were or what you are now the only thing you have right is that it hasn't been passed for NIJ standards and that is because they are in the process right now.You also can't say whether they have tried to get it passed by NIJ because your not a certified NIJ tester anyhow.Now those are the facts so until there are more developments don't be quick to judge because I know most marines aren't.

Posted by: Marine4Life at April 16, 2007 06:25 PM

Because of comments like yours, William, Pinnacle is now making strides to advertise its body armor. These videos released show real bullets being fired into real dragon skin vests, and we will soon recieve a real certification from the real NIJ which will basically imply the fact that dragon skin is the real deal.

Posted by: Eddie at April 16, 2007 06:08 PM

When they say that their vest can stop level IV bullets, they mean it. William, the past has nothing to do with Dragon Skin's performance. Pinnacle clearly lists the types of rounds and their respective velocities that can be stopped multiple times by a Dragon Skin SOV-3000.

They aren't lying.

Lets make a chart

Flexibility goes to Dragon Skin
Protection Area goes to Dragon Skin
Comfort goes to Dragon Skin
Hit endurance goes to Dragon Skin
Durability (from mishandling) goes to Dragon Skin
Shrapnel protection goes to Dragon Skin
Weight goes to Interceptor, but as aforementioned, weight distribution on DS offsets this advantage from interceptor.
Cost goes to Interceptor.

Even though it is not officially certified, Dragon Skin is still capable ot stopping level IV bullets. I'm absolutely certain that the rounds listed on pinnacle armor's ballistic chart in the level IV and V categoty meet and exceet the standards for military body armor level IV.

Just because DS is not heavily advertised/officially tested doesn't mean its not certified. Performance outweights words, just like how this body armor outperforms the current issue of military body armor by a substantial margin.

It's simple: If its better than "the best body armor fielded in the world (interceptor)", then it should be fielded.

Dragon skin is CLEARLY better than interceptor, and it is so obvious.

Posted by: Eddie at April 16, 2007 06:07 PM

Let me get this straight. Pinacle did not get any official testing done for 12 years but somehow they can claim they have the best armor. They did not respond to the any of the hundreds of requests for new technology that are public record for the last 12 years,i.e. the Army, US SOCOM, DARPA and other agencies, but claim that the government is ignoring them. They supposedly have been an "underground" company according to one post, well that sure helps let the world know you have a new techology.

While I commend the forum members efforts to get our guys better equipment, I do not see your lay efforts helping, because until someone can address the credibility issues at hand, i.e. lack of testing by a recognized entity, it is all just cheer leading. Pinacle has not done anything that a legitimate business would do to present their product to the markets that exist, which is law enforcement and the military. Both of these entities have well know testing protocols to be considered a legitimate contender for receiving orders (business). There is no police department/town council that will allow them to purchase armor that does not meet the minimum standards of the NIJ. The military determines it's needs and sets specifications. Until this is accomplished you cannot claim anything. You can say that you have a promising technology.

Pinacle has gotten everyone's attention, now it is time to perform in a real environment where things can be measured in a controlled environment.

Pinacle so far has been reluctant to enter the arena, outside of doing their own testing and making range videos. There have been many new armor companies started since Pinacle started operations. All of them have certified armor or they have tried to pass the Army's tests. They all compete in the market place, which ultimately decides which armor is the best, since customers get to decide that question. Just remember there have been products ahead of their time that were not successful, Packard and Delorean come to mind, I am sure there are more.

Posted by: William at April 16, 2007 07:05 AM

They should really work with Pinnacle instead of dissing it publicly because what if it is found to be better than what we have.That would be hillarious if Pinnacle got NIJ certified and then was like oh "I thought it wasn't up to par with the douchebags who unfairly tested it."That would be the greatest prove you wrong incident scenario.But then they would probably try to steal the patent and call it Snakeskin or some shit if they had to get it for the troops.Keep kickin ass in Iraq and Afghanistan fellow marines.

Posted by: GUNNER at April 16, 2007 03:01 AM

I've never seen an issue this messed up over body armor you're right on Johnny.Pinnacle does want to work with these people but the problem is they won't let them.They would rather keep their pockets full of the cash coming in from Interceptor (which some troops have to purchase themselves)instead of advancing our armor program.

Posted by: LISA&yes I'm a girl at April 16, 2007 02:17 AM

Where has the respect for new technology gone?Dragonskin is the only recent thing I can recall in the last ten years that is so controversial.It used to be that the military experts would work with these types of products and their designers to make a product that would be undeniably greater.It seems like Pinnacle is being fought by these agencies instead of being allowed to work with them.We owe it to our troops to research these things fairly.All I know is that when Dragonskin is NIJ certified some people are going to lose their jobs over this debockell.

Posted by: JohnnyH at April 16, 2007 02:11 AM

ChopTop you have to be fair. Interceptor has saved many lives and it does have some measure of hit resiliency. It can take 3 level IV rounds per front/back plate and 1 per side plate before failing.

It's just that what DS SOV-3000 can do dwarfs that of what the interceptor can do.

Posted by: Biz at April 16, 2007 02:01 AM

If we do not support developing better armor then our jobs as soldiers will be over.Even if this armor isn't as good as it is said to be(excluding the laughable army testing)it is at least a step in the right direction.

Posted by: rick at April 16, 2007 02:01 AM

William what brach of military were you in that speciallized in armor?It sounds like you are for the terrorists.

Posted by: boby at April 16, 2007 01:53 AM

Skeptics argue that Dragon Skin SOV-3000 cannot stop level IV bullets travelling at high speeds. I am pretty sure it can, otherwise I'd go ahead and sue pinnacle for lying. But, they aren't. Chances are the army guys, Karl Masters and James Zheng, who conducted and sabotaged the Dragon Skin tests, are sweating bullets right now. In those tests, level IV roudns were fired into the level IIIA shoulder straps. Obviously, there were complete penetrations and so they could argue that DS failed the tests. It was at the tester's descretion to picjk which shots would count as results for the test..so..obviously..you catch my drift.

Man, I better not die for this. if the government arranges some freak accident for me to die in, I'm gona be pissed as hell.

Posted by: Biz at April 16, 2007 01:52 AM

Dragonskin far exceeds Interceptor.Here is my interpretation of the scorecard.
Dragonskin;flexible,weight well dispersed,multiple hit integrity,coverage for shoulders,reliability after being hit,protects against blasts.
Interceptor;not flexible,weight not well dispersed,no multiple hit integrity,no coverage for shoulders,reliability after being hit is non existantno blast protection whatsoever.
SO THE FINAL TALLY====Dragonskin=6
Interceptor=-6

Posted by: ChopTop at April 16, 2007 01:46 AM

Guys i know that ur really passionate about this but lets try to be a lil more respectful. I kno its hard, and I don't even serve in the military (yet..), but lets just keep this discussion orderly so that we can get all the facts straight instead of shouting insults. I, like you, want the truth to get out and there's no way we're gona be able to do that by putting each other down. William i don't have anything against you personally but i seriously believe that you can't argue dragon skin is crap. it's the real deal and its gona be proven by some solid press release from NIJ very soon. if that's enough, refer to the videos. they ain't shooting fake bullets.

Posted by: Biz at April 16, 2007 01:36 AM

Redneck isn't even close we're Cowboys From Hell.If you could see these men's enthusiasm for proving to themselves and everyone who spectates this you'd volunteer for a beating that only a true Texan American could give you.Do the math man (or is that woman to you william)Dragonskin is far better than Interceptor.The weight distribution is perfect and the protection is un rivaled.I see the score as follows.
Interceptor=a shitload of fine American lives lost
Draonskin=a shitload of Americans will have one less thing to worry about in battle.

Posted by: Jason at April 16, 2007 01:32 AM

Don't forget Area Coverage from rifle rounds

Dragon Skin 1

Posted by: Biz at April 16, 2007 01:23 AM

But you know william, even though DS is heavier, it's more flexible, which makes it more comfortable. And its weight distribution is superior, which makes it feel lighter than it actually is (It also allows for more ease of running and transitioning from stances such as crouching, standing, and proning). That's dragon Skin 1 (comfort), Dragon Skin 1 (flexibility), Dragon Skin 1 (fighter effectiveness) and obviously, Dragon Skin 1 (multiple hit durability).

Posted by: Biz at April 16, 2007 01:20 AM

What's goin on David,I hear there is someone who supposedly served in military trying to disrespect Dragonskin.Well William were you in Iraq or Afghanistan recently?I didn't think so.To make a long story short I was recently honorably discharged and to have a dim-wit like you say you know what's best for our boys is horseshit.I was ambushed in Iraq and was shot 4 times,2 in the leg which was amputated and once in the arm and once in the shoulder.I bled so much that I flatlined twice.You probably served before all this shit started and think you know all there is to know about battle but let me tell you that Interceptor could use an over haul.The soft armor was penetrated like a fuckin missile through butter.I also lost a high school buddy when he was shot in the torso.R.I.P Brandon.The worst thing I saw was kids-around15or16-with ak's that would just walk up and act like they were for America and then just start shooting.I will never recover from this war and to have a piece of shit like you crap on Dragonskin is bitch shit.David I'll see you next week.Also my friends have been alerted about this forum.Tell Bily I said what's up and I'll see him when he's home.

Posted by: Greg at April 16, 2007 01:20 AM

First of all William we shoot at a very well renowned shooting range with large crowds of family and friends.And now that you have crossed the line calling law enforcement and retired military who have children that are in the reserves/active duty,I'm sure this forum will be dominated by real Americans instead of one yankee who is so anti-Dragonskin.

Posted by: David at April 16, 2007 12:57 AM

I never said that Interceptor is better than Dragon Skin. Some of you guys and Pinacle "have" said that Dragon Skin is better than Interceptor. The burden of proof is on you. The Interceptor has been tested and has been "proven" to exceed the NIJ requirements that the Army claims. The Interceptor soft armor meets or exceeds the NIJ Level II threats for handguns, and the current plates defeat Level IV. Dragon skin has proven that they can exceed the handgun threats and stop Level III rifle threats. Now they have to prove what they claimed which is that it is better than the Interceptor.

It has been admitted that DS is "heavier" than Interceptor.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragon Skin 0.
Stop Level IV threats.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragon Skin ???
Meets current Army specifications.
Score: Interceptor 1, Dragons Skin ???

It don't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 11:57 PM

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical military standard specifications

All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical military standard specifications

military specifications, not NIJ. Soi even if they are being tested by NIJ, that doesnt mean that they are afraid to shoot stronger bullets at it. As they promised, all bullets listed in that chard from level I to V can be stopped by SOV-3000. Once again, All other level III, IV and V bullet types and velocities are per typical MILITARY standard specifications.

dragon skin is better than interceptor. why is that so hard to admit?

Posted by: $$$ at April 15, 2007 11:45 PM

Methinks Willy is crazy

Posted by: $$$ at April 15, 2007 11:36 PM

David, you could save yourself a lot of time and money if you had just sent 6 of those vests to the lab for testing, instead of creating another video. You can send them direct to the NIJ for certification testing or send them to the lab for independent tests and then publish the data for all to see. You don't need Pinacle's permission to get the lab tests done.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 10:59 PM

There is an expected level sophistication for products that claim to be life saving. For instance, most things used in the military started life as commercial products and were then adapted or developed further for military use. However this testing requirement is not unique to body armor. The UL stamp on electrical wiring is there for a reason, some of that is so you don't get electrocuted. The US Coast Guard tests life vests and rafts. This means that it has passed a minimum test for safety. they don't usually do comparison tests of which product is better, just that the product meets the minimum acceptability ratings. The FAA tests aircraft and ensures safety standards.

Get serious, Pinnacle has waited a long time to meet some minimum test standards for their product. They also make some great claims without a way to verify it.

we don't have a consumer reports test like they do for comparing which toaster oven is the best.

If Dragon Skin is all that is claimed then it shouldn't be hard to prove. But it needs to be verified by scientific means, not by a bunch of redneck engineers shooting in their backyard.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 10:40 PM

Back when I was still involved with my units armor development testing we did preliminary testing on our own range and then sent it to H.P. White Labs in Maryland or to Aberdeen Proving Grounds. They do this type testing everyday. HP white is a world recognized independent lab, every military in the world uses them for testing, and so do the armor manufacturers. The NIJ publishes their test standards online. This test protocol shows what type clay and conditioning of the clay for trauma measurements. The distances of the sky screens for velocity measurements and the shot patterns for testing the armor sample. this includes zero degree shots and angled shots. This information is already done for you. You will need a test cannon that can deliver the velocities needed for testing the different calibers and have the correct threat projectiles for each caliber.

Shooting regular guns cannot normally give you the maximum velocities required.

V50 testing may require 200-300 feet per second more velocity to establish where the safety factor velocity is, meaning that you normally need a minimum of 100 feet per second above the V0 velocity before you get a penetration. More is better, since you are playing with someones life here.

Vehicles can add additional velocity to real gun velocity, for instance a car traveling at 60 miles an hour adds 88 feet per second to your velocity, if two cars are moving towards each other you can add 176 fps to the velocity.

The NIJ tests level IV velocities at 2850 +/- 50. The military uses 2900 fps on the low side. There are many differences between them. The cops don't see the nasty threats our guys do on the battlefield. The military also deals with blast. The large ceramic plates are more effective at keeping blast from gelitinizing your internal organs. Flexible armor cannot offer the same protection since it will automatically transfer the blast wave. I don't really think that the guys at Pinnacle have the background to develop armor for the military. There is a lot more to this than just stopping a few bullets guys. Unfortenently, a lot of this information is not published due to OPSEC requirements. So vendors can say what they want in a public forum and the military people cannot respond where you can find out what is really going on. If you are a manufacturer and have a good technology, the military will provide the information you need to be successful. If you need a security clearance it will be granted.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 10:15 PM

William has probably been to that site professionalsoldiers.com, which harbors the man himself who sabotaged the army's Dragon Skin tests. Many admins from that site's forum have been quoted to tell those who say dragon skin is better than interceptor to, "go burn in hell".

its so obvious dragon skin is better. it is SO obvious. more obvious than the difference between black and white. it is truly sad how people think interceptor provides superior protection and flexibility in comparison to dragon skin.

Posted by: NITRO! at April 15, 2007 10:06 PM

William is an online dater who has never even seen or worn the Dragonskin for himself.You have no life and yes you are most likely to live with your parents and be rejected by 300lb."heifers".Online dating has nothing to do with Dragonskin but I must say online dating is for people like William because nobody wants anything to do with him.Have you ever even seen Interceptor as compared to Dragonskin?I didn't think so.

William if your such an expert why don't you give us facts and not opinions on these two vests as compared to each other.Oh that's right first you'd have to have had experience as I have,I am currently comparing Dragonskin to Interceptor and I am a police officer who works with men who know teir shit just like me.I'm not saying that our little experiment will get Dragonskin to be used by law/military but ay least I'm doing something instead of bitching about the so called ineffectiveness of it.Basicly if you were doing tests that prove your points I'd give you a little credit.Instead you try to get credit for second,third and fourth hand "knowledge".It's people like you who claim to know officers and know every thought in teir head that piss me off.
You don't even know how the military tested this vest.

It is plain to me that they should have compared the Interceptor to Dragonskins SOV-3000.I'll give you an example.An Interceptor was ruined(penetrated through the plate/through the whole front of the vest)by 5 shots from a DesertEagle hand gun.The Dragonskin was never penetrated(even shooting at point blank range in the same area)and I emptied 4 whole clips.

Yet another example is an amazing shotgun test that I hope to have on you-tube soon.We set up an interceptor and a Dragonskin side by side and first emptied two shotguns into the Dragonskin at 15ft. away and amazingly no penetration was to be found.We then began to shoot the Interceptor with the same shells/shotguns at 15ft. away and after 3 shots the vest would be seen as useless because there was major penetration to the weak areas of the vest.The plate was even shattered in two spots with penetratin through the front layer and even imbeded shot into the back of the Interceptor.This is the same model that our troops wear.These were brand new vests bought by concerned Americans who believe that it is our duty to give our officers/military the best there is to offer.I guess my main goal here is to get our military and police to work with Pinnacle instead of against it.I mean what do you get by dissing the only advancement path to armor? well I'll tell you what you get,you get more dead/seriously injured soldiers/police officers who serve this country unselfishly.

To William and all the other "haters" go find the forum for dumb-shit know nothings who hate advancements in armor instead of wasting you're time trying to convince the majority of Americans to believe you're bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David at April 15, 2007 10:00 PM

I'm a first-time visitor to this site because I've become interested in the Dragon Skin-Interceptor debate. William: How would you design a convincing, feasible test? Who would a credible tester be?

Posted by: paul at April 15, 2007 09:17 PM

The bar set by the NIJ for body armor is set so low, that if you can't pass this test, then you don't don't really have anything. There are two markets to sell body armor, Law Enforcement which has their entry level testing and the military which has their own documented test protocols. NIJ uses a dry test and wet test protocol, with limited V50 testing. The NIJ requires six samples of which only four are actually tested. The military's First Article tests require at least 30 samples be tested. The list is long, consisting of hot and cold tests, wet and dry tests, petroleum resistance, and they even do drop tests before shooting the hard armor (bash test), there are more than this but as one can see the military protocol is more extensive. If you fail anyone of the tests then it is back to the drawing board until you can pass. It is a level playing field. The protocol is readily available, there is nothing hidden.

If I were in business and trying to sell my armor to law enforcement, I would certainly get it certified as soon as possible. Pinacle has blown up more than enough armor making flashy videos that getting a proper test done should have been a priority.

I do not buy your so called independent test smoke screen. They can have the two recognized independent test labs run tests using the NIJ protocols and at least have some verifiable third party test results that would show if the armor were submitted to the NIJ that it should pass their tests.

Shooting armor in your backyard does not qualify as independent testing by any public agency that would consider purchasing armor.

I get the feeling that Pinacle is a lot like online dating. You get a sexy picture and a lot of talk, but at some point in time she actually has to show up in person. Then you get to see if she really is a size 2 or a 300 lb heifer.

Getting NIJ certs is step in the right direction. But it is a long way to getting armor that can endure the rigors of the military environment.

I used to drag race and it is kind of funny how many people claimed to have 10 second 1/4 mile cars, only to find out that they really had a 13 second car when it came time to race.

I also find it kind of funny how Pinacle has claimed to have 17 pound wrap around Level IV armor for years, and now all of a sudden it has gotten heavier than Interceptor.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 09:08 PM

William, why do you refuse to accept dragon skin's superiority to the current issue of armor our troops have? Many soldiers and marines buy dragon skin, only to have it confiscated.

I agree with bill, the main reason why people dont buy this stuff is because its independently tested (does not have official NIJ safety standards). If I were a police commander and I saw a body armor company claiming to have good armor but no official testing, I'd ignore them because..well "independent testing" doens't sound very assuring.

But the proof is in the pudding, just look at the videos. Their level III armor is exceptional at protecting against level III rounds, and im sure their level IV armor is the same with their respective threats.

Posted by: $$$ at April 15, 2007 06:37 PM

So up until the point where they take their armor to NIJ, Dragon Skin was mainly an "underground" comapny that was relatively unknown except to those lucky passers-by. With all those advertisements claiming "BEST BODY ARMOR" from almost every body armor company, wouldn't you exclude the one without official NIJ standards? thought so.

Posted by: Bill at April 15, 2007 06:16 PM

Now after the army refuted their armor because of sabotaged test, they go to NIJ to make it more formal (since they know the army won't trust their independent testers).

They know that if NIJ certifies it, the Army is in a shithole of trouble for giving its troops inferior armor.

Posted by: Bill at April 15, 2007 06:11 PM

It wasn't popular because of weak advertising. That's the most obvious.

the main reason is that pinnacle relied on private testing to verify their armor. If they don't have NIJ standards on their armor (in other words, if NIJ don't test it), it won't sell because of people fearing it is crappy/not well tested.

Nowadays, pinnacle take their armor to NIJ. They got III and are getting IV right now. After that, then they will get more orders.

William, why the hell are you doing this? Dragon Skin is superior to all other plated armors it's painfully obvious. You think interceptor can compare to dragon skin? You think the new marine vest can compare to dragon skin? If you do, you're sadly mistaken.

Posted by: Bill at April 15, 2007 06:10 PM

Dragon Skin has been around since 1995. So in twelve years, how many Police departments have bought Dragon Skin. Wait, don't you have to have NIJ certifications before the Police can buy and use the armor. So why did Pinacle wait 12 years to finally get "one" NIJ certification and is now waiting on the "second" certification? How come you guys haven't been bitching about all the police departments that have not taken advantage of Dragon Skin for the last 12 years? Doesn't it appear that their is a conspiracy in "EVERY" police department out there, since our defenders in Blue deserve the best armor protection too? I have done ride alongs with the New York PD Swat, and they have about 400 members. They constantly have barricade situations on a daily basis and have a NIJ Level IV requirement. They also have to run up multi-story buildings that are so old they do not have elevators, so well fitting, highly protective armor is a necessity. You would think that one of the largest departments in the country would certainly be interested in this "wonder" technology, how about Los Angeles, or Maimi/Metro Dade, or Dallas Swat? I do believe that some departments have Unions that could weigh in if there is better technology to help protect our officers. How come we haven't heard about our police being denied better protection? I think that there is more to this than the Army. What about the Marine Corps, are they in on the conspiracy too? If this is so good how come US Special Operations Command did not buy any? I think it is time to wake up and smell the coffee guys. If this armor is as good as you all think then why isn't Pinnacle an industry leader when it comes to body armor sales after 12 years in the market place? Good products sell themselves.

Posted by: William at April 15, 2007 11:48 AM

You are right Sam,even if it isn't going to be fairly tested it should at least be seen as the only advncement in armor so far.Therefore it should be recieved with an open mind as to where the future of armor will be headed.

Posted by: JOSEPH at April 15, 2007 12:57 AM

The reason so many peolpe hate dragonskin is because they would hate to think that it is better than what is already used.That is also why it was unfairly researched.DRAGONSKIN IS THE BEST ARMOR IN THE WORLD SO WHY CAN"T THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD USE IT?

Posted by: Sam at April 15, 2007 12:20 AM

ah, well that solves out worries of Dragon Skin's weight. As you know there've been skeptics as well posting here and they use the weight of dragon skin to detract from it's effectiveness as body armor.

the army already has plans for the soldier in 2020 and it still uses ceramic plate armor which leaves gaps in the soldiers body and is uncomfortable. Its up to guys like you to do somethin about that. It's sad that our troops, many of whom are just kids like me, are being ordered to stay in iraq on extended tours and to not even be sure why they're fighting for iraqis who don't appreciate what they're doing (68% of iraqis justify killing Americans). And on top of that, they're wearing outdated body armor.

It seems as though many of our troops don't know how good dragon skin is because they're misinformed. Hell, if I were ordered to shed my vest i'd go to fucking court martial and stir up a media craze just for the hell of it, and i'd do it more than once. You keep up the good work , David

Posted by: Jay at April 14, 2007 11:41 AM

Well Jay I'm up having a few drinks so I guess I'll post again.Overall fit was great and yes the weight distribution is great as well.I guess a proper analogy would be a camel with a hundred pounds in the middle of its back for Interceptor as opposed to fifty pounds in the front and fifty pounds in the back for dragonskin.The flexibility is what amazes me though.It allows you to go from a standing position to a prone-crouching position without any discomfort so basicly if conforms to you insead of the other way arround.This is great for soldiers on building tops for long hours who have to get up and down quickly and repeatedly.Imagine having the Interceptor plates digging into your gut while crouching over and over again(chafing could lead to a nasty rash)not good for anyone.The inner fabric stays cool as well and is quite smooth.I love this vest and can't wait till they make helmets from this material.Just imagine a motocycle type helmet with a full face guard, now that would kick ass I'm not sure what the facemask would be made of but it would be futuristic and I'd wan't one.I can't wait to see what a soldier would look like in say,2020.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2007 03:07 AM

For sure for sure. What you're doing is great. Just try your best to let people know, and to let those people let more people know. This is really important and you're doing something that nobody else has done before.

By the way, just for my info..could you tell me if the vest is comfortable? I know that it is slightly heavier than the interceptor but I am just wondering if dragon skin SOV-3000's weight distribution system makes up for that weight penalty, since there have been many posts here that argue that the weight of dragon skin can be cancelled by its good weight distribution. Like basically, if you were wearing it would you be able to perform your duty better than if you were wearing a fully plated interceptor? Thanks again, for everything you're doing.

Stay safe and I look forward to watching your tests. Putting them up on YouTube should be a breeze; all you have to do is get an account (takes like 5 mins) and then upload the vid.

Posted by: Jay at April 14, 2007 01:42 AM

Jay, all I want to do is tell an inside friend of a local paper to say where I will post the video.I can understand your opinion but I have a good friend that is an editor for this paper and he has already said it would be okay to put where to find this forum and the videos to come.I still have to find out how to get the video on you-tube after we're done shooting.This is not at all something that we are trying to get the media to look at.We just want to spread the word that yes there is something more we can do to protect our soldiers/law enforcement.The video goes beyond the DiscoveryChannels Futureweapons as the History Channels MailCall and we're just getting started.We are only testing the SOV-3000 and it is truely amazing.I personally have never seen a vest that can stop afull clip from a DesertEagle at about 2ft. away.The most amazing thing I have seen was the 15 consecutive shotgun blasts that one vest took just to look like it was hit.And I personaly would rather wear the shotgun blasted vest than the Interceptor because if you saw what 3 shotgun blasts did to the Interceptor you'd say what a piece of crap.I personally bought 3 of the dragonskin vests one went with my son to Afghanistan one I sacrificed for the testing(hell if you ask me its still better than the Interceptor even with a 50cal.hole through it)the other one I'm keeping mint.I don't post my email adress ever,nothing against you but that is for family only.I will continue to post updates and just argue my point of view frequently.

Posted by: David at April 14, 2007 01:22 AM

David,

I relaly like the idea of your test. Make sure you inform the newspapers and other ppl you contact about the two different dragon skin vests (SOV-2000, which is rated to stop AK fire and other level III rounds, and the SOV-3000, which is rated to stop armor piercing incindiary rounds, otherwise known as level IV ammunition). In addition to your testing, pinnacle armor, the manufacturer of dragon skin, has already submitted the SOV-3000 to testing at the NIJ labs for an official level IV certification. Jay, I dont think that any news agency would take your tests with mych seriousness. I mean, I know you guys are honest and doing the right thing, but if this story goes onto some news channel, people would rather believe the army test results (which were sabotaged) rather than the results of several "unofficial" testers. Y'know what I mean? I think that in your current situation it would be better if you just informed people about this via myspace or youtube rather than go for the news. When National Institude of Justice confirms SOV-3000 dragon skin as level IV certified, that should go on the news because it is official. Your video would do well on youtube, but i doubt it would get far in the media at this point in time. Timing is everything.

Dave, what's your email?

Posted by: Jay at April 14, 2007 12:29 AM

Jay I have contacted several gun magazines but have yet to get any replies from newspapers or news affiliates.Guns and Ammo said they we're really interested and will also be printing a story about the dragonskin.We are doing this for free, no promotional or financial gains are foreseeable.The main thing is getting the right news affilate or news stations to cover this fairly.Like I said we are hoping that this will be highly rated on you-tube.The main thing is that 11 of 16 guys has a relative or child in Iraq.Some even served in Iraq during the begining of operation Iraqi Freedom.I met most of the bunch at a local bar that our kids frequent.I'm an officer and my son is currently on a tour of duty in Afghanistan.My son is my hero and he came up with the idea of this independent study.He also came up with the idea of putting close up footage on you-tube.The best thing is that he will be able to see it from wherever he is as
long as he is near an internet connection.The testing is done also with the suggestions of soldiers and weapons experts from all fields which is better than just one specific field.I have also chosen to work on this 5 times a week instead of just 2.That should speed up this process of proving it is the best armor to date.I am continuing to work with my department to have something in the local news or newspaper just to spread the word about the video on you-tube coming soon.I wish I could tell everyone the date of the release but I'm not sure how much longer the very very intensive testing will go on but I know this ain't a one day or even one week project for me.I won't be satisfied until there is so much proof that any doubtfull people have no reason to be skeptical at all.I mean we have even gone as far as to get super slow motion photographers on board.We have been filming everything and the close ups are undeniable as to what calibers we are using.

Posted by: David at April 13, 2007 09:24 PM

david, you better work your ass off to get some serious exposure. call some peeps from a PROMINENT newspaper or something. what you're doing will save lives! i applaud your patrotism.

Posted by: Jay at April 13, 2007 04:22 PM

Yes I will post where you can see the video when it is complete.I'd have to say we are about 1/3 complete and have been working for a month so you do the math.We have 15 vests and let me tell you it was very expensive we hope to buy more for future testing but I know I'm keeping mine in mint condition.

Posted by: David at April 13, 2007 02:31 PM

Hey David it's good to see that there are independent tests going on even if it won't get Dragonskin on our military.I cant' wait to see the video.I am curious to see what the 50cal. does to DragonSkin.Are you going to post where we can see the video?

Posted by: eric at April 13, 2007 02:25 PM

I believe Dragonskin will be contracted in the future because it was unfairly tested.When testing any vest you use the highest grade vest not the weakest instead of the SOV-3000.Also our research and development team is weeks away from releasing a video on you-tube that shows close ups of the rounds used as well as the close ups of the vests we aquired from Dragonskin.The testing is on going and very intensive.I can tell you that this vest is being tested in all ways concieveable.We test at a shooting range two days a week.We measure velocities at range and are also testing other things like durability for explosions.We have tested with the following cals. so far 9mm.,38.spc,12gauge,AK-rounds of all specifications including armor piercing,30/06,.44mag.,50cal.at 200yds.and my personal favorite in personal protection the infamous DesertEagle at damn near point blank range.The testing unlike others(army)is fair and done without any hands under the table.This is an independant test by interested Americans who together paid for the vests and with the help from retired police officers\several retired branches of military have been able to obtain the weapons and ammunitionwithout breaking any local laws.There will be close ups of the cartridge casings and close ups of the vests tested.It is still in the infant stages of testing but I hope to get the video footage up soon.

Posted by: David at April 13, 2007 02:12 PM

In case you were wondering, here is the new interceptor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Army_IOTV.jpg

basically the same thing as MTV, but different camo. Offers same protection level as old interceptor and offers same area of protection from rifle rounds as old interceptor. There's just an added back panel of soft armor to stop rounds from hitting the tailbone area.

Posted by: Sean at April 13, 2007 11:13 AM

And dragon skin will not be adopted by the military anytime soon. The Marine Corps got a new vest called the MTV (modular tactical vest) which still uses plates. It features more soft armor near the lower back and good weight distribution. it is heavier than interceptor but feels lighter according to the marine corps press release and several testimonials from marines who got to work with it.

The army has signed a contract recently for a new type of interceptor. It will basically look the same as the MTV, but have the ACU camo pattern.

Concerning the SOV-3000's, the army testers said that it failed the tests. But a pinnacle technician who witnessed the testing said that one of the army testers fired level IV roudns into the levle IIA shoulder straps to "see what would happen". He also stated that all rounds fired into the side, back, shoulder blade region, and front torso were stopped. However, a few weeks after the test a congressman objected to Dragon Skin being fielded to our troops, claming that there were "clear penetrations" of the armor (but thats expected, because level IIA shoulder straps are not supposed to stop level IV armor piercing incindiary rounds, duh). Anyway ther's just a background for you. The results of the test are classified.

However, SOV-3000's are, at this moment, being tested by NIJ for level IV certification, which is a much more reliable testing group than the Army. If these vests are to pass (which they probably will), the Army anad its testers will have a lot of explaining to do.

Posted by: Sean at April 13, 2007 11:01 AM

Hey guys, be respectful here. William has a valid point to state, which is that Dragon skin is heavier than the interceptor. Though ,in my mind, the weight distribution more than makes up for that.

We can't really prove william false about the SOV-3000 not being able to stop level IV bullets, and nor wan be prove that he is correct, because pinnacle has never released videos showing its SOV-3000 vest. However, I am quite certain NIJ will send the letter of approval to pinnacle soon certifying their armor as level IV protection. Time will tell.

Posted by: Sean at April 13, 2007 10:54 AM

Well it looks like my uncle Ed had ten too many last night and got a little carried away(sorry William).And no he is not a crazyman we just drink a lot.I knew I shouldn't have brought up Dragonskin but I couldn't resist to tell him about it as well as show him the you-tube video.In my opinion I believe anything new is going to be controversial and it should be.Without proper research by many experts new things can have faults.This product from what I've seen\heard looks to be very reliable but without fisthand experience with Dragonskin I would need to see Interceptor vs. Dragonskin to be either for it or against it.I personally could care less what the vest weighs because I'm an avid weightlifter.I would however like to see how it performs against armor piercing rounds and against IED attacks because thats the biggest problem in Iraq right now.

Posted by: Kane at April 13, 2007 10:51 AM

Ed is a crazyman.But he is correct I have yet to see anything taht compares Interceptor to Dragonskin from the so called expert William.How can you be against the vest if you constantly ask the weight and performance stats?If you really wanted to know you would do your own research.I think eveyone likes to argue with you because you raise some good questions but unfortunately don't have the answers yourself.

Posted by: FREDDY at April 13, 2007 10:24 AM

William I dont swallow nothin except whiskey and food.You swallow dicks- head,neck,and nutsack.Wake up kid you're out numbered on this forum and I haven't read anything that tells me anyone else is as doubtfull as you.I'm sure you are waiting since you certainly don't have any sex in your future.By the way what have you heard or seen that makes the Interceptor better than Dragonskin anyway?I'm straight out in my opinion you better listen to a man who knows what he's saying.I see why everyone has a problem with you.You always want people to argue with you when you have no valid arguements.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 13, 2007 02:00 AM

It is imminent that Dragonskin will be used in all branches of military because the interceptor will be outdated in a few months/years William.I don't see why you are so interested in Dragonskin if you aren't a supporter of it.Oh wait, I get it no sex life.Hell I'm almost 60 and get more young ass than a toilet seat.Get a life you punk.Dagonskin is better than anything you know of ain't it?Unlike you,I'm guessing everyone else who posts here gets laid on a regular basis.All you seem to do is post here and try to argue with believers in this armor so yeah I think you are fagget with no life.I'm sure everyone agrees.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 13, 2007 01:46 AM

Hi Guys

Well I can't deny that the dragon skin is better protection, the S-3000 dragon skin can stop level IV bullets (It is in the process of getting a level IV certification from NIJ, but I am positive that it will) and soak up multiple shots (more than plates). Though there is a slight weight penalty.

And it is heavier than the interceptor Body Armor, but in agreement with the other posts, the weight distribution will probably make it feel as light if not a little bit lighter than the Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). Either way, it would allow the soldier to perform his/her duties better because when you have all that weight only on your shoulders it impairs your movement whereas if you have it hugging your body and then some on your shoulders it feels tight and tough, and allows for better function.
As you know, Dragon skin reduces trauma significantly compared to E-Sapi plates (About 40 percent less backface trauma). That means that there will be less bruises (which is good).
Also, it is more flexible than IBA.

I agree that in the technicality of it, Dragon Skin is heavier. the most it is heavier compared to the interceptor when both are providing level IV protection is 6.4 pounds (size L for both vests). all other sizes have lower weight difference.

My decision if I were to be in combat: A Dragon Skin. Good weight distribution, great protection, flexible.

Posted by: Kevin R. at April 13, 2007 01:22 AM

Hi Ed, I think you should go have a health checkup since sufficient oxygen is obviously not getting to your brain. I don't see how asking technical questions about weight and performance can be considered as me trying to block this particular armor design from our troops. I guess since I am not gullible enough to swallow the slick marketing hook, line and sinker, is what makes you cast dispersions upon my character. I just do not see the relevance to the discussion at hand. I guess I could take your multiple, simpleton, and childish remarks seriously and in return accuse you of being gay or something, but relevance would that have to the discussion of Pinnacle's product or marketing materials? Since you obviously are very close to this product and company, knowing about the imminent purchases by all branches of the military, then surely you can give us clarification on the technical capabilities of the armor, and product specifications. I am waiting.

Posted by: William at April 12, 2007 07:27 PM

Hey there sceptics of Dragonskin you should be ashamed of what you have posted.Dragonskin is close to getting contracted for use in all branches of the military.It may may take a few months/years to see the vests on all soldiers but it is a step in the only concieveable direction.Dragonskin is currently the only groundbreaking armor that offers all around kick ass protection with the benefit of proper weight distribution and multiple hit protection with no penetration.William sounds like a damn hippie with a military opinion and there aint no room for those types in this country.I strongly recomend you get on board with supporters of this armor or just give up trying to make your shity opinions into facts.Your way out of line posting things you have found on google.The only thing you are an expert at is posting copyrighted materials that you really don't understand.Vietnam showed me a lot about being young and thinking you are invicible but that ended pretty quick when I was shot in the back.Point- blank= armor has come a long way and people like William aren't gonna stop life-saving developments from being at the forefront of our armed forces.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 12, 2007 06:01 PM

Hey there sceptics of Dragonskin you should be ashamed of what you have posted.Dragonskin is close to getting contracted for use in all branches of the military.It may may take a few months/years to see the vests on all soldiers but it is a step in the only concieveable direction.Dragonskin is currently the only groundbreaking armor that offers all around kick ass protection with the benefit of proper weight distribution and multiple hit protection with no penetration.William sounds like a damn hippie with a military opinion and there aint no room for those types in this country.I strongly recomend you get on board with supporters of this armor or just give up trying to make your shity opinions into facts.Your way out of line posting things you have found on google.The only thing you are an expert at is posting copyrighted materials that you really don't understand.Vietnam showed me a lot about being young and thinking you are invicible but that ended pretty quick when I was shot in the back.Point- blank= armor has come a long way and people like William aren't gonna stop life-saving developments from being at the forefront of our armed forces.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 12, 2007 06:00 PM

Hey there sceptics of Dragonskin you should be ashamed of what you have posted.Dragonskin is close to getting contracted for use in all branches of the military.It may may take a few months/years to see the vests on all soldiers but it is a step in the only concieveable direction.Dragonskin is currently the only groundbreaking armor that offers all around kick ass protection with the benefit of proper weight distribution and multiple hit protection with no penetration.William sounds like a damn hippie with a military opinion and there aint no room for those types in this country.I strongly recomend you get on board with supporters of this armor or just give up trying to make your shity opinions into facts.Your way out of line posting things you have found on google.The only thing you are an expert at is posting copyrighted materials that you really don't understand.Vietnam showed me a lot about being young and thinking you are invicible but that ended pretty quick when I was shot in the back.Point- blank= armor has come a long way and people like William aren't gonna stop life-saving developments from being at the forefront of our armed forces.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 12, 2007 05:59 PM

Hey there sceptics of Dragonskin you should be ashamed of what you have posted.Dragonskin is close to getting contracted for use in all branches of the military.It may may take a few months/years to see the vests on all soldiers but it is a step in the only concieveable direction.Dragonskin is currently the only groundbreaking armor that offers all around kick ass protection with the benefit of proper weight distribution and multiple hit protection with no penetration.William sounds like a damn hippie with a military opinion and there aint no room for those types in this country.I strongly recomend you get on board with supporters of this armor or just give up trying to make your shity opinions into facts.Your way out of line posting things you have found on google.The only thing you are an expert at is posting copyrighted materials that you really don't understand.Vietnam showed me a lot about being young and thinking you are invicible but that ended pretty quick when I was shot in the back.Point- blank= armor has come a long way and people like William aren't gonna stop life-saving developments from being at the forefront of our armed forces.

Posted by: Ed Abbot at April 12, 2007 05:57 PM

William you seem to be missing the point. Dragon skin is 6 pounds (at most) heavier than the interceptor, but it feels lighter and is flexible, thus it is more comfortable and allows the warfighter to be more agile and flexible and at the same time better protected.

Like the gentleman who posted before, I confirm that Dragon Skin weighs no more than 6 pounds heavier than a fully rigged interceptor (size L dragon skin weights 6 pounds more than an L interceptor w/ 4 plates), yet offers the same protection level(IV) but better resilience and covers 36% more area of the torso against rifle rounds (88% more if interceptor has no side plates).

Let me say that again.

It weights no more than 6 pounds heavier than a fully rigged Interceptor, and offers the same protection (level IV) and covers 88% more area of the torso against rifle rounds. and it can take more hits (which is vital if you're being ambushed).

The reason why it is 6 pounds heavier is because it covers 36% more area than the plates of an interceptor do. That's a trade I'd take anyday.

it is more flexible than the interceptor, and has superior weight distribution, so although it is heavier you don't feel as burdened because of the good distribution. You can also configure the hard armor part of the dragon skin to meet your weight needs. The soft armor portion of the dragon skin, if you configure it to have soft armor, is also level IIA NIJ. Interceptor soft armor cannot stop IIA rounds.

And i guarantee you that Dragon Skin will obtain the level IV rating from NIJ.

Posted by: Leitis at April 12, 2007 03:23 PM

Personally, I prefer having modularity. So any system would have to allow me to configure how much armor protection (weight) I was going to carry. This includes being able to just use a set of plates, sans the soft armor on occasion. This would mean a that the plates would have to be safe to use in a stand alone mode against the majority of threats. If I needed the highest level of protection, I could either use the complete soft armor or supplemental soft armor behind the plates to reach the higher protection. If my mission required high mobility or endurance I would just be using the plates, if the physical demands were less I could add more protection, like the whole soft armor, and add some side plates. If I was spending a lot of time riding around in a vehicle, where the threat of IEDs was very prevelent, then I would be wearing all the armor protection I could put on. The vest also needs to have a cutaway feature in case I was caught in a burning vehicle, or some other situation where I needed to cutaway my equipment to escape. My normal setup when I was on active duty was a concealment vest that I wore full time, with two plates in a bikini carrier that I could throw on when I went out. That way I always had on frag protection in the base camp, I had a buddy who got hit while sitting in the crapper, but his soft armor saved him. The conventional guys would drop everything, so they wound up being exposed when they thought it was safe. If you are in a war zone, there are no safe areas. Of course I had a lot more control of what equipment I had to wear, versus the conventional units. But it annoys me that mandatory use of soft armor is not seen in the base camps where getting mortared is very real. You can never let your guard down. whether you are in the mess hall or just walking across the compound. Since all they have is tactical armor it is difficult to be able to shed some of the weight quickly. I could go from soft, to hard, to both, and throw on my LBE with full kit in seconds. If I had to operate somewhere like Afghanistan, I would like to be able to just throw on hard plates for rifle protection, and maybe add and subtract hard side plates when needed. I don't like the integrated system where everything is attached, because it is an all or nothing proposition. I know we can do better for the guys on the ergonomics than what they currently have in the field.

The future force warrior concept armor was field tested at Bragg a few years ago, and while it looks cool, and really reduced the heat stress, it was unusable to do more than stand around on guard duty. Every SOF mission profile was tested with full kit, and it was not usable. If you only had on the armor it was pretty good, that is not reality. It was impossible to get in and out of a vehicle in full kit.

I am not against flexible armor. The concept is fantastic, but in my many years of experience, no one has been able to make this concept competitive in weight due to the fact that you have so many joints that the tiles have to be overlapped. This causes an automatic weight penalty of at least 30%. This can mean an extra 10-15 pounds more weight compared to conventional armor design, with the same level of protection. There is no way around the physics of this no matter what material you use. The use of small tiles to increase multi-hit is nothing new. Our first ceramic plates were made of mosaic tiles glued together to form larger plates. Very good multi-hit but you had to use thicker tiles (which added weight) to ensure a bullet hitting a joint would be defeated. Then industry mastered making monolithic large plates and we could use thinner, lighter tiles, but gave up a lot of multi-hit. Every armor system is a compromise. You can fix one thing but you have to give up something else. Flexible armor systems can be very good, but you will pay a large weight penalty for the multi-hit. I think 3-4 hits in a small area is sufficient, and that is for the highest threat the plate will defeat. I have seen some AP plates take 10 or more hits of AK Ball, which is way beyond any threat you would see in reality. So just because the plate is advertised to stop X number of hits, that is the minimum that a plate has to stop of the AP threat, it will stop a lot more of the non-AP bullets. But that part has been left out in some companies marketing literature. I have an old vest left over from a test years ago and it has over 300 rounds of sub-machinegun 9mm in it and it weighs just three pounds. All of the high end soft armors will do this so a hundred 9mm rounds should be no challenge. But the marketing makes it look like no one else's armor can do this. I have another vest panel that we shot 25 rounds into the same hole at 6 inches away and did not get a penetration. I got assed off, because I do have the experience to know what I am looking at, and I could not get anything from the manufacturer except hype, no facts, no third party verifications on their claims so I did throw the Bull$hit flag and blew the whistle. I know what the industry is capable of producing and these guys are not telling you the whole story. They omit a lot of things, and misconstrue the truth so that their armor looks vastly superior, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Maybe one day a new material will come along which will allow this concept to work at the same weights of current conventional armor. But guess what, the new material will just make conventional armor lighter too. Unless someone makes a material as light as air, the flexible armor will still be 30 percent heavier and no one can change that fact, because the design demands it. You cannot have the trifecta that is claimed. You cannot have the multi-hit, and do it at the same weight as regular armor.

So to answer your question, my armor would be what I already used before. If, I had to walk into a room for some ficticious firefight where I had to stand there with no cover and take round after round, then and only then would it make sense to use this concept. There is no such thing as comfortable armor. I agree that Interceptor soft armor leaves a lot to be desired in the form and fit department, but that does not take away from the protection level. Take out your ruler and measure coverage areas between your current gear and what these guys are showing you. You just might be surprised to find that a Large, really isn't a Large, but a Medium. I would not do business with a company that will say anything to sell me something. If it is good it will sell itself. Just put the facts out and let the customer decide. It is illegal to tell people that you have NIJ certifications that you don't actually have.

Posted by: William at April 12, 2007 03:14 AM

the SOV-2000 recieved the III rating. the SOV-3000 is currently being tested by the NIJ for a level IV certification. At this time, it is being tested alongside NIJ standards, so no worry there.

william i am just wondering if you were ever going to return to combat would you wear the SOV-3000 or something else (name, be specific). For my part I'd go with the SOV-3000.

Posted by: Sean at April 12, 2007 12:11 AM

Go to this link and see what Defense Review was saying about Dragon Skin in 2004. They were claiming that dragon skin was stopping Level IV threats at 17.5 lbs vest weights. They also were saying that M80 ball is a Level IV threat which it is not, NIJ classifies it as a Level III threat and they say that AK47 Mild Steel Core is AP, which it is not, it is a ball round. This article is full of inaccuracies, and that is putting thinks politely.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=490
So how is it that Dragon Skin just recently recieved their NIJ Level III certification?

Posted by: William at April 11, 2007 09:14 PM

We shall wait for Dragon Skin to get their level IV rating, which is currently in process.

Posted by: Sean at April 11, 2007 07:26 PM

Hey guys, all I have said is put up or shut up. They made some claims, none of them have been verified. I said on an earlier post that I was impressed with the potential of flexible armor designs. This has been tried many times before, but there have always been problems. Dragon Skin has been around for more than 10 years and if it is the revolution everyone talks about, then it would certainly win in the market place. They have claimed to have an NIJ certified Level III vest for several years, I have seen their vest marked this way. However they just actually recieved their NIJ Level III certification in December of 2006. They have claimed Level IV and Level V since 2004 and still don't have a Level IV certification. Here is an interesting link to a company who claims to have sold the rights to Dragon Skin and are apparently re-entering the market since their non-compete has expired. http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Flex.htm Maybe the real inventor of the original Dragon Skin can really make this concept work. They claim to have some new disc material that works better than the conventional materials. They also claim to be working with the government to have their design tested properly. So we will see what is up with that.

Interceptor was designed as a frag vest with the added capability of providing lightweight rifle protection. It has evolved with the increasing threats on the battlefield. It also did not have any molle attachments on it since the army was still using LBE to carry ammo, water, and other stuff. The load bearing capability was added way later and now the design is no longer workable with all the changes and added armor weight. I am sure that some changes in the ergonomics are in the works. The Marine corps went to a new vest design last year, at least they let a contract for it, I don't know if it has been fielded yet.

Ask the Rangers about the first Ranger body armor, steel plates and a heavy kevlar soft armor, it weighed 40 lbs. The next generation weighed 32 lbs with the lighter weight ceramic plates. Interceptor with plates was 18 lbs. Now the weight has been going back up with the increased threats.

A handful of Special Forces operators bought DS, so do not confuse that with an endorsement for the command. I can guarrantee you having served 14 years in Special Forces, that Dragon Skin was tested by some very competent people and if Dragon Skin actually worked, SF certainly has the ability ,funding and procurement authority to obtain it. So if SOCOM didn't buy any for fielding to the guys, I would take that as a pretty good indicator that there is more smoke and mirrors than substance. After all they do have their own armor program seperate from the Army's program. I also want the guys to have the best protection and equipment. Promises do not stop bullets, videos do not stop bullets, slick marketing brochures do not stop bullets, only armor stops bullets, and only proper testing will ensure that it will do so with a high confidence level.

Posted by: William at April 11, 2007 06:10 PM

William,why don't you listen? Everyone on this forum states the truth and take it from me you are way out of your league.When Special-Forces uses this armor then its clear what is the best.Hey man take it from everyone except your government buddies Dragonskin is the best in vests.You say it weighs more but that dont matter to real soldiers anyhow.Mess with this vest die like the rest.Keep up the spirit of this country and serve it well to all military.P.S. William is a sociapath about knocking Dragonskin maybe he should be a live comparison testee for Interceptor/Dragonskin.I'd like to see that.

Posted by: jeremy at April 11, 2007 05:04 PM

who cares if its heavier, as long as it feels lighter and allows the men to perform their duties with flexibility (excuse the pun) and better protection than the current issue Interceptor and Modular Tactical Vest (new marine vest). Who cares about the industry, who cares if it aint revolutionary or if it is. This will save so many lives and if the troops like it (like the guy below me) then you should listen to them becaujse they are the ones who evaluate and need it. I for one would use this no problem. And William, are you some guy sent by the military? You troll this site almost daily I have noticed with your friend Hans (who is less obsessed), and all you do is make Dragon Skin look unoriginal and useless. Do you have any idea how many men died from wounds to the shoulder/upper chest/outer front torso who were hit in the soft armor portion? 92. That's right. If we had given them this armor 92 of our men would be at home with their families right now. Until some supervest is designed in the future, the best thing we got is this. I'm sure that if you were evfer called into duty you would scramble to pinnacle's site and order their vest. They also have knee pads and shoulder and groin pads made of dragon skin too. Mayhbe those you might not need (except for the groin one) but the vest itself is a stud and offers the best protection, flexibility, and comfort for our troops right now.

Posted by: Feral at April 11, 2007 03:25 PM

William what you're saying is a disgrace to the men who serve our country to defend your right to be a fool. I HAVE WORN BOTH THE INTERCEPOR AND SOV-3000.

As menjtioned in my previous post, i served a tour in iraq in the 82nd (I will not, however, disclose my identity)and managed to get hooked up with a SOV-3000 (briefly) from a friend of mine who is a contractor working in the green zone.
Have you worn dragon skin? Exactly, now listen up.

First of all, interceptor IS lighter than dragon skin. However, its poor weight distribution system makes it feel like its 60 pounds. It puts severe strain on your shoulders and is inflexible when it comes to leaning foreward. You cna hardly do a sit up in an interceptor OTV w/ all 4 plates (and I am very fit). Dragon Skin is heavier, and when i picked it up with my hand it felt heavier. However, wearing it was quite comfortable after a couple of minutes and it felt much lighter due to the fact that it hugs your body and offers great weight distribution. Bar none, SOV-3000 offers superior protection to a fully configured interceptor. You cannot argue against that. Furthermore, I felt much more unrestricted and I felt that if I was on patrol, I would be able to chase down the guy who shot at me (rather than sulk in the interceptor and call off the chase or whatnot).sThe video, though hyped, shows what dragon skin can do. Those were SOV-2000's. Imagine how manyh lives would have been saved if the SOV-3000 was fielded to our troops.

William, please consider the things you say. Most people who visit this site are poorly informed and easily manipulated to believe what a few "experts" claim are true. Words can trick people and prevent such great armor to be fielded to our troops.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 11, 2007 03:05 PM

What most people do not understand about the current state of the body armor industry is that millions of dollars are spent each year on research. Current ceramic armor technology already uses the lightest weight ceramic which is B4C (boron carbide) and the total composite weight of a plate is 1/4 the weight of the equivelent ballistic steel that would be needed. Boron Carbide is as hard as a diamond and is lighter than aluminum. The composite fabric is ten times stronger than steel, Kevlar is only five times stronger.

Platelet armor has been around since Roman times. The concept is nothing new, it was used for military armor during WWII, and the last usage was by the Russians in the 1980's, using Titanium plates (simliar to the SOV 2000). No one uses this concept except for Pinnacle today because you pay a 30 percent weight penalty because of the overlap of the discs, so you won't have seams. Everyone in the armor industry knows this.

Pinnacle however relies on the fact that the average person will see their product as being innovative and new because it is different from the what everyone else is doing today. Add in some flashy videos and some scare tactics and you have a good marketing tool. However, this like argueing which truck is better a chevy 1500 or a ford f150. If all of Pinnacle's claims are true, there is still not a nickles worth of difference. If we assume that their claims are true for a moment, they might have a slight advantage if you were going to stand around and be shot by multiple rounds, however in the real world no one would stand around be shot this many times, so in reality you would be carry more armor than you need and the additional weight. If we are talking about bragging rights maybe they are ahead, assuming all claims are true. Earth shattering? HARDLY. Significant improvement? NOPE!

Industry has exhausted all current materials available. The only significant improvements will be made when a new material is discovered or invented. So until then, ask to see performance data, weight data, and quality controls since that is the real measure of an armor system, not some hyped up video.

Posted by: William at April 10, 2007 11:13 PM

DRAGONSKIN SHOULD BE PROUD TO BE WHAT SEEMS LIKE THE ONLY NEW DEVELOPMENT IN BODY ARMOR.WITH ALL THE SCIENCE NERDS ON THIS FORUM THERE SHOULD BE MORE ADVANCES.KEEP KICKIN' ASS AND ERASIN' NAMES FELLOW MARINES.

Posted by: DogWillHunt at April 10, 2007 01:37 AM

I gurantee you that Dragonskin will revolutionize body armor.There may be kinks now but like any other body armor they will work them out.Just imagine if all technology wasn't scrutinized or tested thuroughly/fairly.The point is...Dragonskin seems to be searching new avenues of body armor technology and that seems to make others jealous of not having come up with it themselves.

Posted by: DogWillHunt at April 10, 2007 01:23 AM

dude interceptor puts a lot of weight on your shoulder. i'm ex-army (82nd AD) and i know what its like to wear the interceptor AND the the dragon skin (managed to get a hold of one from a buddy of mine who is also a contractor). i'd tell you that his SOV-3000 feels much lighter than the interceptor due to the fact that it disperses the weight better (hugs your body instead of justp utting weight on your shoulders) and offers superior protection to the interceptor (duh), and is substantially more flexible and comfortable. Although DS sov-3000 (best configuration+shoulder pieces+goin pad)is about 6 pounds heavier than the fully rigged interceptor, it feels a lot lighter and it is much more easy to move around in. same with the marine corp's new vest, the MTV (modular tactical vest). it is 3 pounds heavier than interceptor but feels lighter because of better weight distribution. Hans and william, i will tell you hands down, from a soldiers perspective, that dragon skin SOV-3000 is superior to the interceptor in every way.

Posted by: Harnu14 at April 8, 2007 05:54 PM

though DS is heavier, i'd still wear it for reasons that it provide superior protection. the plates in the front/back of an interceptor still leaves out chunks of area of back and chest that are vulnerable to rifle threats, and hard plates are inflexible. i don't mind the extra 5 pounds. i'm buff anyways, so no problems here. maybe you skinny guys would care (haha).

Posted by: Sean at April 7, 2007 08:13 PM

Hans, I agree with you. I think that Pinnacle used the USMC report as a launching pad to attack the Army/USMC and start a big marketing campaign. The only problem is that the Army had already identified the short comings of the SAPI with change in the environment and enemy tactics when it became apparent. The Army already had ESAPI in the field when the report came out. Unlike the liberal media press the Army is not going to publish a guide on how to kill our guys by putting out information that would let the enemy know how to defeat what we have in the field. I actually see Pinacle's tactics as "opportunistic" and reeks of the very things that they and some of their supporters have accused the Army and defense contractors of doing. Pinnacle also employs fear tactics by trying scare soldiers, I see this as an attempt to undermine the confidence of the troops in the equipment that they have, if this were WWII they would probably be arrested. Pinnacle has been claiming to stop Level IV threats and their own ficticious "Level V" threats for some time, but they have yet to acquire any certifications to prove it. I think they don't really understand the difference between investor relations and truth in advertising.

Posted by: William at April 7, 2007 09:23 AM

Well, that’s good sum up, Biz.
Here are my 2 cents:
I think the SOV 3000 has better multihit capabilities than ESAPI plates. It is quite simple: with each hit only some scales are damaged and other areas stay unscathed. So it tolerates more hits.  Quite simple.
What I dislike about the discussion is that many guys who obviously have no clue about IBA or Dragon skin throw around with stupid claims, try to talk down the IBA and come up with some strange political conspiracy theories.
The first argument for the SOV was the USMC study that showed that many fatalities were caused by hits in the side of the torso. That was solved by adding ESBI plates which cover the side.
Then the most used argument for the Dragon skin was the weight of the IBA. But the problem is that the SOV 2000 doesn’t stop 7,62 x 54R rounds fired by the SVD or PSL, some very common sniper threats. So fielding the Sov 2000 would be insane, because even more insurgents would switch to already available weapons which penetrate that armor.
The conclusion that SOV 3000 is the solution for all problems is also wrong, because a square inch of SOV3000 protection is heavier than a square inch of hard armor protection. So a greater coverage would be more lightweight with a bigger ESAPI plate or added mini rifle trauma plates. And the recent fielding of the 3 lb lighter IOTV makes the weight discussion between SOV3000 and IBA needless.
In my eyes Pinnacle managed to improve something. that wasn’t needed. The multihit capabilities of the ESAPIs are already good. They stop at least 3 level IV and 5 level III rounds per plate. Fatalities because of penetrated ESPI are marginary (And even in this forum nobody claimed that he heard about large numbers of KIAs because of that). It is very unlikely being hit by 10 rounds or so only in your armor inserts, DS or ESAPI.
What disturbs me is that Dragon Skin is shown as some great step in technology. It adds more protection for more weight. Point. And so most arguments used against the IBA can be used against the SOV3000.
One other disadvantage for military use I see with DS is its total lack of modularity. A full torso wrap and respiratory protection with 34 lb is great for turret gunner or a mounted patrol but for days lasting foot patrols in A-Stan it is simply too heavy. But unlike ESBI you can’t take of any additional coverage off. And if you add modularity to DS you’ll have the same problems as with hard armor: gaps between inserts, egde hits or overlapping inserts.
If you sum up all facts you’ll see that the choice between DS and hard armor is more a matter of taste than a real a clear step ahead in armor technology.

For myself I think that the scale design of the DS is a great idea and will be more important in the future with some new lightweight materials, but today its use is somehow a controversy. In my eyes the SOV 2000 is good for law enforcement (eg. SWAT teams) because of its greater coverage, with a good weight while it defeats common threats in the USA. But my opinion is that neither SOV2000 nor 3000 is better suited for standard military use than hard plate body armor.

Posted by: Hans at April 7, 2007 05:03 AM

Well, that’s good sum up, Biz.
Here are my 2 cents:
I think the SOV 3000 has better multihit capabilities than ESAPI plates. It is quite simple: with each hit only some scales are damaged and other areas stay unscathed. So it tolerates more hits.  Quite simple.
What I dislike about the discussion is that many guys who obviously have no clue about IBA or Dragon skin throw around with stupid claims, try to talk down the IBA and come up with some strange political conspiracy theories.
The first argument for the SOV was the USMC study that showed that many fatalities were caused by hits in the side of the torso. That was solved by adding ESBI plates which cover the side.
Then the most used argument for the Dragon skin was the weight of the IBA. But the problem is that the SOV 2000 doesn’t stop 7,62 x 54R rounds fired by the SVD or PSL, some very common sniper threats. So fielding the Sov 2000 would be insane, because even more insurgents would switch to already available weapons which penetrate that armor.
The conclusion that SOV 3000 is the solution for all problems is also wrong, because a square inch of SOV3000 protection is heavier than a square inch of hard armor protection. So a greater coverage would be more lightweight with a bigger ESAPI plate or added mini rifle trauma plates. And the recent fielding of the 3 lb lighter IOTV makes the weight discussion between SOV3000 and IBA needless.
In my eyes Pinnacle managed to improve something. that wasn’t needed. The multihit capabilities of the ESAPIs are already good. They stop at least 3 level IV and 5 level III rounds per plate. Fatalities because of penetrated ESPI are marginary (And even in this forum nobody claimed that he heard about large numbers of KIAs because of that). It is very unlikely being hit by 10 rounds or so only in your armor inserts, DS or ESAPI.
What disturbs me is that Dragon Skin is shown as some great step in technology. It adds more protection for more weight. Point. And so most arguments used against the IBA can be used against the SOV3000.
One other disadvantage for military use I see with DS is its total lack of modularity. A full torso wrap and respiratory protection with 34 lb is great for turret gunner or a mounted patrol but for days lasting foot patrols in A-Stan it is simply too heavy. But unlike ESBI you can’t take of any additional coverage off. And if you add modularity to DS you’ll have the same problems as with hard armor: gaps between inserts, egde hits or overlapping inserts.
If you sum up all facts you’ll see that the choice between DS and hard armor is more a matter of taste than a real a clear step ahead in armor technology.

For myself I think that the scale design of the DS is a great idea and will be more important in the future with some new lightweight materials, but today its use is somehow a controversy. In my eyes the SOV 2000 is good for law enforcement (eg. SWAT teams) because of its greater coverage, with a good weight while it defeats common threats in the USA. But my opinion is that neither SOV2000 nor 3000 is better suited for standard military use than hard plate body armor.

Posted by: Hans at April 7, 2007 05:01 AM

NIJ level IV would be a good start to proving that DS can defeat AP. The next step would be meeting military requirements of multihit at the required velocities.

Level III protection is relatively easy to obtain, compressed dyneema or spectra does this at very low weights.

Level IV is very challenging at the lower weights. Like I said before Level IV NIJ has been achieved at 6.5 lbs areal density, the military requirements require a heavier armor, hence the ESAPI areal density of 7.4 lbs. Which is the best that industry is capable of doing currently. I am afraid that the weight of Dragon Skin will wind up increasing significantly to meet the military requirements. In my personal experience, we had many vendors that presented products that were claimed to meet the specifications, but most failed in testing and when they came back to try again the product had increased in weight. Shooting armor with regular guns on the range can give a false impression of the capabilities. Many products were found to be on the margins of defeating the rounds, and shooting a few samples doesn't provide enough data points. The V0 and V50 numbers are determined through extensive testing. Armor is classified as bullet resistant vs bullet proof. Nobody could carry bullet proof, the safety factor is too high.

Differnt barrel lengths give different velocities with the same cartridge. You have to test for worst case.

Live fire demonstrations without velocity measuring equipment are easy sandbag. A few years ago the Miami Dade Police department bought some body armor after seeing a live demonstration on their range. It was very convincing. But two weeks after fielding the armor an officer was killed by the very round that was demonstrated that the armor defeated. There was a lawsuit and the armor was replaced with another brand. I still have a copy of the demo tape showing the smoke and mirrors tactics of the manufacturer. This also why the NIJ tests armor and even then they got fooled by Zylon. Now Zylon cannot be used to make vests, Second Chance went bankrupt, and a lot of good officers are dead. So just because a manufacturer makes claims does not necessarily make it so. I would venture to say that the military has the most extensive testing protocols, and with good reasons. You have to prove consistant performance to make the grade. Also the military cannot just replace a million plus sets of body armor overnight, everytime something new comes out. Once it is a proven technology it will be adopted. Would you get into an new airplane design without it being tested first? I don't think anybody would, except for the crazy test pilots. Just look what happened to Airbus' new passenger plane that used a composite tail section. Even after what everyone thought was adequate testing it failed and killed several hundred people. I will not fly on one, even though they claim to have fixed the design.

Posted by: William at April 7, 2007 12:47 AM

I agree with you william, in the point you make that there are level IV threats that are beyond the SOV-2000's capabilities to stop. But, when the SOV-3000 gets its level IV certification (which it probably will, soon), then I don't think there can be any other body armor that can stand up to it in terms of pound-for-pound protection, flexibility, and multiple hit resilience.

disregarding the level IV ratings and disregarding the SOV-3000 completely (lets just wait until it gets the level IV rating, then everything will unfold from there. that's a matter for the future), the SOV-2000 is the current issue. It's the only vest thats been shown tested by Pinnacle Armor on their videos and it looks very good. You heard about those 90 marines that died from isolated torso wounds in iraq (where the bullet hit around the area not protected by their plate)? I mean, honestly, if they were wearing dragon skin then they'd be alive today. there is no question about that whatsoever, because you've seen those videwos of the SOV-2000 stopping round after round after round of AK ammo (which basically all the insurgents use), and you know that the SOV-2000 has the full torso/full back wrap option where it covers basically their entire torso (besides the shoulders. the shoulder straps are level IIIA rated). Since SOv-2000 is rated for level III and level III+ as well, it will most likely be able to handle the SVD dragunov ammo used by the insurgentgs (which is the only sniper they got pretty much, besides extreme cases where one of em would have some foreign weapon or whatnot, you catch my drift?). So, my view is that Dragon Skin would have saved many lives in iraq because of the insurgents' limited options for weapons. they don't got those rounds with tungsten penetrators and they dont have Armor Piercing Incindiary rounds. Dragon skin would have done a phenomenal job in iraq, much better than the interceptor.

Now, if we're takling about a war vs say...England. then Dragon Skin SOV-2000 would probably not be fielded because it isn't rated for level IV rounds which the brits or any other prominent, professional army uses. Ya know what I mean? That's the job for the SOV-3000.

as you know, all DS body armor can take substantial repeat hits. there's no question to that, the videos that pinnacle releases are not fabricated. if you were to shoot a fully decked out interceptor with level IV ESAPI plates with an AK 47 until the vest would fail, it would fail sooner than a level III dragon skin sov-2000 for sure. DS sov-2000 can take more hits from 7.62x39mm than an esapi plate. but if you were to shoot a fully decked out interceptor level IV (in the plate) with a level IV 7.62x61mm round, it would stop the round (given that it is shot in the plate and not the soft armor portion, which is crap) and the sov-2000 would fail.

So basically, ESAPI plates offer better higher protection level than SOV-2000, but the SOV-2000 can take more hits from lower powered rounds than the plate can. If you were gona go to sniper alley and you knew that they would shoot you flat in the chest, you're best bet would be interceptor with ESAPI plates as opposed to SOV-2000. but if you were going to iraq and you knew you'd get sprayed with 20 rounds of AK ammo or something like that, SOV-2000 over the interceptor for sure hands down.

I think that what we need to do is to wait. When the SOV-3000 gets its level IV rating, then it will truly bring into question, the effectiveness of the interceptor.

and im gona have to disagree with your statement about cost. Night vision and body armor are in different categories. Obvioysly, night vision is more important than body armor when it comes to a night fight. So, its as if you need to make a decision. Buy your troops night vision or screw the night vision and get good body armor. If you buy both, it will cost too much. you know what im saying, william? cuz honestly, you can't really argue that the interceptor with ESAPI plates is a better vest than the SOV-3000. it just isn't.

here's a comparison

Dragon Skin SOV-2000
Protection Level: III and III+
Hit capability: dozens
Flexible: entire armor is very flexible
Weight: In any size, at most 3.7 pounds heavier than interceptor OTV
Area coverage: with best config, 88% more protection from III threats than Interceptor OTV.

Interceptor OTV

PRotection Level: IV

Hit Capability: three IV rounds per plate, probably five or maybe six III/III+ rounds per plate for the front and back (side plates offer IV protection, but less hit capacity due to their size which makes them easier to fracture and fail.
Flexible: soft armor is flexible. plates are not. so about half the vest is not flexible
Area Coverage: 270 Square Inches of level IV protection (medium size, front, back, and two side plates ESAPI).
weight: At most, 5.2 pounds lighter than Dragon Skins (SOV-3000).

Dragon Skin SOV-3000
Protection Level: IV and V (V does not exist, but on pinnacle's website it is mainly smaller 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 ammo but with the specialized penetrator tips and classified velocities which probably exceed 3000 fps. these rounds are slightly more powerful than IV rounds).
Hit capacity: Dozens
Flexibility: whole vest
Weight: At most (in all sizes), 5 pounds heavier than Interceptor.

As you can see it took me a while to do this.

VERDICT: Although the ESAPI plates are stronger than SOV-2000 dragon skin, they can take less hits (they can withstand a stronger round, but they are less durable. hope that makes sense).
However, the SOV-3000 is the haymaker here and i'm almost certain it will recieve the level IV rating from NIJ. If it does, then i am confident to state that the SOV-3000 is clearly superior to the Interceptor Body Armor.

Posted by: Biz at April 6, 2007 10:44 PM

Hi Biz, I have seen the DS stop the ball rounds. However, a lot more AP ammo has shown up in theater so the threat has escallated beyond what the SOV 2000 is capable of stopping. This was also the case when Pinnacle declared that Dragon Skin was superior to Interceptor, but they were behind the times. The original SAPI specs were developed in the 90's and were pretty good for the times. The Clinton administration took all the money out of the budget so very few were in the system when we went to war. Production went full blast until it was determined that the plates designed for open field combat were not robust enough for the Close Quarters Battle our guys were faced with. The army procured several thousand BALCS plates which do stop AP on the SOCOM armor contract until the ESAPI plates could be tested in conjunction with OTV. ESAPI was already being fielded when Pinnacle started up a stink that DS was better than Interceptor. The only problem was that they were comparing DS capabilities to the old SAPI plates, Believe me when I tell you that if Dragon Skin were the hyperleap in technology that they claim, every military in the world would be knocking at their door and one or more of the large armor companies would be trying to buy it or at least team up with Pinnacle. The government spends tons of money on R & D, so does industry, every ceramics manufacturer, fiber and textile company is looking for the next break in technology, because they will make a lot of money when the get something that is an improvement. You don't see anymore steel helmets ever since the first kevlar one came out do you? The old steel pot cost like $30 bucks and the kevlar costs uncle sam almost $500 each, so where is the argument about the army is too cheap to buy expensive armor? How much is one set of night vision, $4,000? One IR sniper scope costs $60,000, Every soldier has night vision goggles, so I don't think that money is the issue here. Don't get sucked into the baloney that the reason you don't get issued Dragon Skin is because of some conspiracy about money or someone is protecting their ass. I know for a fact that SOCOM has had a standing request for better armor for years. They just held an armor conference soliciting new technology, did Dragon Skin show up for it? I don't know if they went or not. This information is published for the public so if you have something to show, they want to see it. DARPA puts out requests for new technologies all the time. DARPA and SOCOM both have special funding to help emerging technologies get off the ground. If this technology is truly revolutionary there are plenty of people who want to see it and have the funding to buy it.

Posted by: William at April 6, 2007 07:30 PM

One would come to expect that an armor which offers much better protection and resilience would weigh more. like the man said, its only a couple pounds heavier. I could lift 5 pounds with my pinkie. I'd pick SOV for sure. clearly much better hit endurance (takes more hits) and more flexible. Also, Dragon skin armor scales produce 50% less trauma from the bullet than ESAPI plates.

Posted by: Sean at April 6, 2007 06:31 PM

Youi guys here are the facts. Interceptor is slightly weighs less than SOV-3000. But, you know, dragon skin is much more flexible and can take more shots (obviously, come on you guys you know this is true. Esapi plates are designed for 3 level IV rounds whereas SOV-3000 cn take more than three for sure). IF i were in a war, I would go with the SOV because I don't care if its 5 or 6 pounds heavier i want the 88% more area protection for my torso vs rifle rounds than offered by interceptor. plus it is flexible. William if you were in a war what armor would you pick? I aint picking a fight witnh you i want your opinion. the draft is a very possible scenario in the future and i'm just wondering if you'll take the military's issue or buy your own from pinnacle.

Posted by: Biz at April 6, 2007 06:29 PM

David are you a liberal? Because you use their smear tactics to try to confuse the facts when someone asks a legitmate question that you don't like. Your comment about baiting me is a pretty weak cover story for your outright lies, now that someone else posted the real armor weights. You guys can use all the smoke and mirrors you want but eventually the truth will come out. If Dragon Skin achieves Level IV certification that will be an accomplishment. Like I said before, I look past the slick marketing, and just would like to know some facts about the armor performance and weights. You guys just insist on trying to pick a a fight. I just wanted my questions answered. So that I could give my opinion to those who have asked for it. At this juncture, I cannot really give them one, since nobody wants to state the facts, but they do want me to wait until the next marketing video comes out. Just remember that the Federal Trade Commision enforces the truth in advertising laws.

Posted by: William at April 6, 2007 05:44 PM

Give up William you just post things that you look up on the net.Other people are involved in the experimentation of this armor and don't have to make up things just to sound like they are experts.

Posted by: david at April 6, 2007 03:26 PM

You have to question yourself Will you post so much nay-sayin' material but you have no facts.By the way I posted that the XL vest weighs 19.5Lbs and you bit like a fish you are so gullable.You seem to take everyones word and post it as fact
you are I was waiting for you to post material that I made up just so I could prove you know nothing.I'm the cop who just busted William as a fraud.

Posted by: david at April 6, 2007 03:22 PM

SOV:
34 lb is with respiratory protection and torso wrap. 29lb is only with torso wrap which is more comparable to the IBA's coverage.
Comparing an extra heavy version to a standart version is nonesense.

The IBA (medium)with ESBI weights 25,7lb.
OTV:7,7
ESAPI: 10,9lb
ESBI: 7,1lb

https://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/IBA.pdf

The new I-OTV is 3 pounds lighter.

Posted by: Hans at April 6, 2007 02:31 PM

by the way the weight for the dragon skin SOV-3000's i listed are with FULL TORSO WRAP (maximum area of the scales). just to be clear.

Posted by: Biz at April 6, 2007 02:13 PM

Dragon Skin SOV-3000 Medium: 34.2 pounds

Dragon Skin SOV-3000 XX Large: 47.5 pounds

Interceptor w/ side and front back plates medium: 31.1 pounds

i don't tack onto these online arguements, but in my opinion i'd go with the dragon with that better protection for just three pounds.

Posted by: Biz at April 6, 2007 02:12 PM

Well the weight issue is quite funny, because on pinnacle’s homepage the SOV-3000 single plate weight information disappeared with its new webdesign. Before that a SOV 3000 "plate" was said to weight 52% more than a SOV2000’s "plate". So until then the weight with enhanced side extensions was (back)13,3lb+ (front)12lb+(OTV) 4lb = 29,3lb.
And as posted before the IBA’s weight with ESBI and ESAPI is 25,7lb (medium). So I suggest we’ll wait until there are any better weight information and SOV3000 is NIJ certified.

Posted by: Hans at April 6, 2007 09:13 AM

I don't know why you guys are ducking the question about how much Dragon Skin weighs in the Level IV version. So far all we get is more promises of the next certification or the next video. Does anyone here on the forum have a SOV 3000? If you do, please weigh an actual vest and tell us what it weighs.

Posted by: William at April 6, 2007 12:20 AM

william you know why the dragon skin SOV's are heavier than interceptor? cuz they cover a shitload more area of the torso from rifle fire with those hard scales. it's so obvious its funny to argue with you. just wait william, once it gets that rating, we'll see what you have to say. b patient, will.

Posted by: seAN at April 5, 2007 10:44 PM

I will be waiting. The lightest weight armor that has demonstrated the ability to stop the 30.06 APM2 at 2900 FPS weighs 6.5 lbs per square foot. That is for Boron Carbide ceramic. Since Dragon Skin is using a different ceramic which is much heavier, and the discs have to overlap to eliminate the gaps, reaching that low weight will be impossible. The current Interceptor areal density is 1.1 lbs for the soft armor + 7.4 lbs for the hard armor = 8.4 lbs per square foot of coverage. An average Interceptor with front and back plates and two side plates ballistic weight is 29 lbs. According to information posted on this website, the SOV 2000 was 2 lbs heavier at 19.5 lbs than the old interceptor which was 17 lbs. The Pinnacle website says that the SOV 3000 weighs 19.5 lbs. Is this the correct weight for the full coverage SOV 3000 since this is the same weight that the SOV 2000 used to weigh also?

Posted by: William at April 5, 2007 08:42 PM

I will be waiting. The lightest weight armor that has demonstrated the ability to stop the 30.06 APM2 at 2900 FPS weighs 6.5 lbs per square foot. That is for Boron Carbide ceramic. Since Dragon Skin is using a different ceramic which is much heavier, and the discs have to overlap to eliminate the gaps, reaching that low weight will be impossible. The current Interceptor areal density is 1.1 lbs for the soft armor + 7.4 lbs for the hard armor = 8.4 lbs per square foot of coverage. An average Interceptor with front and back plates and two side plates ballistic weight is 29 lbs. According to information posted on this website, the SOV 2000 was 2 lbs heavier at 19.5 lbs than the old interceptor which was 17 lbs. The Pinnacle website says that the SOV 3000 weighs 19.5 lbs. Is this the correct weight for the full coverage SOV 3000 since this is the same weight that the SOV 2000 used to weigh also?

Posted by: William at April 5, 2007 08:41 PM

Thanks for the tip Sean.I'll definately watch it.I would recomend William watch it as well since he is so skeptical.I can't wait to get my Dragonskin and put it to use.KICK ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: JamesIII at April 5, 2007 06:12 PM

guys,stop fighting here. it's useless. right now, dragonskin SOV 3000 is being tested by the NIJ for an OFFICIAL LEVEL IV certification. let's just see when sov-3000 dragon skin will get this rating. this should shut up william and the other naysayers. level IV covers everything thaqt william claims can shoot through dragon skin. true, level IV rounds can shoot through dragon skin SOV-2000.but when sov-3000 dragon skin is level IV certified, the debate will be over.

by the way

FRIDAY APRIL 6, 2007
HISTORY CHANNEL SHOW CALLED MAIL CALL will feature dragon skin (sov-2000 i think). tune in

Posted by: sean at April 5, 2007 04:49 PM

Dragonskin should be researched more and with the help of law enforcement/military there will be more .The tests by the military can't always be released and that is an advantage for government run companies who would rather have (possibly)cheaper/less durable vests just to save a little green for themselves.Everyone should encourage new defense technology but,when the tests are being done by people or companies who are going to discredit anything that they don't support it is very wrong and very unpatriotic.

Posted by: bud at April 4, 2007 06:18 PM

Dragonskin should be researched more and with the help of law enforcement/military there will be more .The tests by the military can't always be released and that is an advantage for government run companies who would rather have (possibly)cheaper/l