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Posted by: 弩 at November 14, 2008 07:48 AM

Well in spite of all the pros an cons about Dragonskin the simple fact remains. Id rather my brothers wear a vest with kinks and flaws than wear no vest at all... And all this crap about our government sending our soldiers to die, yes they are and have bin doing so for hundreds of years, this blood is the price of our freedom and those who died knew this when they signed up for it so stop bitching about it like someone stole something from you. They knew the risk and paid the cost for our happiness through blood an sweat, and their death diserves a more honorable mention than some pety angry rant from someone who didnt get a fat enough check from Uncle Sam.

Posted by: MadMardegun87 at October 26, 2008 03:03 PM

Dragon skin failed because the Army's tests because it can not be relied upon to protect from any level 3 threat if the armor is exposed to extreme temperatures or conditions. The fact is the armor will fail if it is transported or stored at common temperatures experienced by military equipment. If you are going to be using this armor for yourself in San Diego and will store it at room temperature in you house by all measures it is the best armor. But it is not fit for military use.

PS: Dirka Blaze, you are not only misinformed but you aren't failing to look at the bigger picture as well.

Posted by: jack at May 13, 2008 11:21 PM

I used to be for the US government. They give new 6.8mm spc rounds to specialists in their armed forces with their brand new m468, heckler and few guns manufacturs. The regular soilders sit back with a m16 with WAY less power than a AK. The enemy could use OUR SHITTY VESTS to protect themselves from OUR SHITTY GUNS. Dragonskin armor is amazing. I am not going into US military it is fucked up and they don't treat VA's like they should. I saw my grandfather who fought for this country fucked over. Then seeing JUBA. All soilders sniped in chest by juba snipers would be saved with the Dragon armor. How could the US say they fight for freedom and good and god when they send their own troops to die!

Posted by: Dirka Blaze at April 23, 2008 01:37 AM

After about 6 days of random internet surfing of military's best assualt riffles new 6,8 rounds which act same as the 7.62 or 306 round that so many hunters across the US love. The dragon skin armor dose have the flaws with the heat to cold. But what hasen't?? the basis of anyone saying that dragonskin is not safe or the best armor is just ridiculous. having many friends in the military it has outraged me seeing so many troops being sent out to die. Most snipers are using 7.62 Nato rounds. The level FUCKING 3 dragonskin armor can repel 7.62 rounds to the ground. The LEVEL 5 dragonskin armor is CLASSIFIED????? what how is this??? the government tried to fix its mistakes but the public found out. Dragonskin is the best invention. I hope all our troops get them and for all soilders i pray that juba won't take you out.

Main fact!!!!! if all US soilders had dragonskin.. JUBA on youtube.com would not be there...

SO fuck off..... the government is letting soilders die. But don't forget they ain't soilders yet. They are police officers. No war been declared. THEY sent our troops to die..........

Posted by: Dirka Blaze at April 23, 2008 01:27 AM

ur all fuking gay with men and u like to lik ur dogs weiner and ballsak

Posted by: ur gay at March 19, 2008 05:33 PM

It appears that dragon skin is the best possible protection in an environment devoid of Heat swings and Oil and Diesel immersion

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf

This my friends, however, is not the desert. Id have to say that id trust Interceptor over SOV in the desert but in any normal urban environment devoid of extreme temperature shifts id go with Dragon skin. The truth appears to be simply this..

The armor is not suited for the desert, and it costs too much anyway. Its hard to replace damaged suits.

Pinnacle is working on a level Five armor but it most likely will suffer from the same problems. If dragon skin is to make it to the front line it would need to be desert, alpine, and snow worthy.

Id trust this jacket with my life if i was a swat team member but not in Iraq, not until the design kinks are worked out. Thats all.

Posted by: Nick at November 13, 2007 02:30 AM

Kaltes I absolutely AGREE with you. BUT, why the ban on soldiers buying it for themselves. It would be hard as hell to replace the armor for the Marines and ARMY single handedly but if every troop was allowed to purchase why shouldnt they. What i dont understand is the active ban on dragon skin Products.

Posted by: Nick at November 13, 2007 02:19 AM

I've always thought, that if I, or someone was to come up with a product that was a substantial improvement over an existing system that was in widespread use. I figure there would be tremendous resistance from certain individuals and organizations that had deep financial interests as well as political and corporate connections that would go out of their way to protect their interests no matter what the costs.
This is the unfortunate reality of mankind that should be fully expected by anyone planning to launch a new and improved product that can step on the financial toes of big US defense contractors.
When I saw the DS system being demonstrated on TV I was extremely impressed and thought ,the guy that invented that is going to get a snout full of trouble. I do hope for the sake of the troops that he has skin as thick as a dragon's. He's going to need it.

Posted by: John Ryan at November 13, 2007 01:37 AM

Lemme say something. I am a marine, stationed in Iraq, I am an 0311 rifleman. I hate the flaks we have now with a passion. Ive heard of the problems with the armor in the heat... I hope they would fix it soon. The flaks we wear, are heavy, they destroy your shoulders, eat your hips, bulky, you cant move in it, and god help you if you fall on your back... ever seen a turtle on its back...same thing... personally i wouldnt give two **** if we wore any body armor at all.

Posted by: LCPL at September 25, 2007 09:44 AM

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Posted by: Me at August 2, 2007 04:55 PM

Dragonskin has yet to fix the problem with it's disks slumping to the bottom of the vest and in an e-mail from pinnacle armor I was told that there isn't a problem. The e-mail also insisted that the army was to blame for the failure of the vest. Therefore I sent an e-mail to Murray stating that "If he wanted any further endeavors in supplying armor to military he should address this small issue." He or someone claiming to be him wrote me back with the furious accusation that the Army had sabbotaged his company and that there would be no further replies to this subject. So lets see here everyone thinks the Army is keeping this armor from our troops? Well there is good reason for that because the vest isn't ready yet. The disks are not well attached and it's an easy problem to fix but it seems as if Murray wants to blame Army for his retardedness so fuck him. I think Dragonskin would be an improvement but the kinks aren's straightened out yet and in my opinion Murray should put his nose to the grindstone and fix that shit. If not then someone will have an improved version before him and then he'll have lost out anyway. I seriously doubt any soldier will be allowed to bring this to Iraq because of the problems that it has. I did three deployments and even lost a leg and I never saw anyone wearing or talking about dragonshitskin. We were more concerned with IED's because no vest can protect you from them. All this bullshit about "our Army is cheating us" makes me fucking sick and it's about time I said something about it. I don't give a fuck what any of you fucks say we have the best shit there is and if you don't think so then you aren't a real soldier any fuckin way. Now I got a big mouth and a big dick so take your pick!!!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce Wallace at August 2, 2007 02:25 PM

Dragonskin has yet to fix the problem with it's disks slumping to the bottom of the vest and in an e-mail from pinnacle armor I was told that there isn't a problem. The e-mail also insisted that the army was to blame for the failure of the vest. Therefore I sent an e-mail to Murray stating that "If he wanted any further endeavors in supplying armor to military he should address this small issue." He or someone claiming to be him wrote me back with the furious accusation that the Army had sabbotaged his company and that there would be no further replies to this subject. So lets see here everyone thinks the Army is keeping this armor from our troops? Well there is good reason for that because the vest isn't ready yet. The disks are not well attached and it's an easy problem to fix but it seems as if Murray wants to blame Army for his retardedness so fuck him. I think Dragonskin would be an improvement but the kinks aren's straightened out yet and in my opinion Murray should put his nose to the grindstone and fix that shit. If not then someone will have an improved version before him and then he'll have lost out anyway. I seriously doubt any soldier will be allowed to bring this to Iraq because of the problems that it has. I did three deployments and even lost a leg and I never saw anyone wearing or talking about dragonshitskin. We were more concerned with IED's because no vest can protect you from them. All this bullshit about "our Army is cheating us" makes me fucking sick and it's about time I said something about it. I don't give a fuck what any of you fucks say we have the best shit there is and if you don't think so then you aren't a real soldier any fuckin way. Now I got a big mouth and a big dick so take your pick!!!!!!!

Posted by: Bruce Wallace at August 2, 2007 02:25 PM

again, take a look at SFTT.org, apparently ARL, in Maryland tested two DS vests about 3 weeks ago. These tests followed FAT protocol for a "high temp" test. The number of shot and placement of the shots for these vests actually exceeded ESAPI specification. It is probably also noteworthy to mention that every single round was defeated, and yes they did use 7.62 x63mm AP2 rounds. The Army is going to have a lot of explaining to do. See the following link for more specifics on this story:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007%2edb&command=viewone&id=33

Posted by: patriot at July 31, 2007 10:21 PM

I watched a 7.62 round pierce the soft portion of the body armor of a marine standing next to me on post in Iraq. We learned about dragon skin while we were there and and one of my teamates bought himself a dragonskin vest. at 15 yards he fired one round from his own AK into his vest near the kidney area of the front. Without the aid of inserts the round still did not penetrate. better coverage area than inserts and allot less weight. I'm not an armchair general i'm a grunt. I'm going back in less than a year and im bringing this armor with me.

Posted by: Virge at July 29, 2007 06:40 AM

Dragonskin=useless

This forum is useless. Just Like Jay is.

Posted by: killa at July 22, 2007 11:00 AM

Wa Wa Wa. Hear me roar my profanity.

Posted by: Paul at July 22, 2007 01:00 AM

The arguement here is that all you want to talk about is a vest that is unproven and not better than Interceptor. I talk about things that can save lives and you talk about things that aren't up to our military standards yet claim that you know on factual terms that it is better so who's the asshole here? You Jay. You. My postings don't have to be about DragonShit so fuck you and how do you see that DragonShit is supperior? What? Do my truthfull posts offend you? Well I'm sorry that all you care about is shit that don't matter.

Posted by: Paul at July 18, 2007 10:10 PM

The arguement here is that all you want to talk about is a vest that is unproven and not better than Interceptor. I talk about things that can save lives and you talk about things that aren't up to our military standards yet claim that you know on factual terms that it is better so who's the asshole here? You Jay. You. My postings don't have to be about DragonShit so fuck you and how do you see that DragonShit is supperior? What? Do my truthfull posts offend you? Well I'm sorry that all you care about is shit that don't matter.

Posted by: Paul at July 18, 2007 10:09 PM

What I cannot understand is... why does it have to be one or nothing. Why is dragon skin who's role is clearly defined, being compared to IED resistant vehicles?

even if you are a pissed off soldier, I'm still not seeing the connect. I clearly see that dragon skin is superior. Should we not expect the best for our troops? What's the argument here?

Posted by: jay at July 17, 2007 10:14 PM

David you are a dumbass. They issue these weaopons because the soldier is able to carry more ammunition idiot. The M4 has a higher velocity round and is more accurate at longer ranges it also allows the soldier to carry more ammo at a lesser weight and size. As for the 9mm. the rounds are also smaller allowing more ammo to be carried at considerably lesser weight as well. The 9mm. can be fired repeatedly without a major kickback like that of the 45. Dragonskin can't be issued until the problem of the disks disslodging is addressed. If you ask me it never will be issued because of the accusatory statemnts of Neal Murray. He has proven to be very unproffesional and does not want to fix the problem therefore he and his company are to blame and not the U.S. ARMY. David you are retarded and should stick to banging your sister instead of acting like a 60's era activist on this forum trying to blame military for Pinnacle's incompetent actions and manufacturing. Neal should hire some Americans to fix these problems because from what I've seen and heard they are mostly illegal immigrants who don't care about America's army.

Posted by: Paul Breaks at July 7, 2007 03:20 PM

The MRAP vehicles are a major turning point in this war. It's a major improvement over the armored Hum-V's. Casualties will be substantially lower and hopefully they will produce enough for all soldiers to use thus elliminating IED casualties. I'm glad to see that things are starting to shape up in Iraq as far as equipment and I beleive the moralle will be raised with this addition. I'm not sure what to think of Dragonskin though. If there is an issue with it's design you would think a sensible company would fix the problem or just go away. Interceptor is very reliable and from everything I've heard about Dragonskin it doesn't seem reliable at all.

Posted by: Drago at July 5, 2007 11:18 AM

Exactly, if anyone really was concerned they would bring up the issue of armored vehicles. Because there is no vest that can protect you from an IED attack. I can recall a patrol in the summer of 2006 where we were providing convoy support and IED's were the main threat for the road we were on. The vehicle in front of us was hit by an IED and then an ambush insued. There were three deaths and seven seriously injured. It was clear to me at that time that no amount of protection could stop an IED attack from criticly injuring soldiers. Therefore here in the states I have written congress and spoken with several high ranking officials about this issue. MRAP vehicles are now being largely produced and deployed to Iraq for soldier patrol as well as convoy support. I never heard of Dragonskin before and it doesn't seem like it could help as much as new vehicles. But if it can I hope the Pinnacle company can weed out the problems and get them useable as soon as possible. Keep it real
and keep on truckin brothers.

Posted by: >>> at July 5, 2007 08:27 AM

I'm not disrespectfull. I may be an aggravated soldier of America who hates wannabe soldiers but that's my right. Dragonskin isn't ready for use period. I'm not saying it never will be but for now we have Interceptor and that's all that matters. Why aren't these people that are championing Dragonskin also bringing up the issues of our armored vehicles. When I was first deployed to Iraq in 2004 our Hum-V's were not protected at all. There were no doors on the one I drove and the protection was non-existant. It's good to see that they are making upgrades to these vehicles. IED attacks are the biggest problem in Iraq and no vest on the planet or universe will protect you from them. I don't care if you are wearing two Dragonskins and two Interceptors. Your legs arms and head will be decimated by a stacked IED. So to all you armor experts what is the answer for this problem? I know one thing, the answer deffinately isn't nor will it ever be Dragonskin.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 3, 2007 03:48 PM

I am disrespectful sorry everybody for being so vulgar. I dont know that small children visit this site with their parents. I am ashamed of my behavior.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 3, 2007 01:39 PM

1. Why would the army let generals and bodyguards (elite soldiers) wear dragon skin while enforcing their so called "Equal Ban" on the rest of the regular armed forces?

2. Why would the army ban dragon skin before they even tested it?

3. Why would the army order extra heavy dragon skin vests with scales that are not even found in areas of Full Torso Wrap and later criticize the vest for its weight?

4. Why would the air force fire rifle rounds into the ballistic fabric portion of a Dragon skin vest when the vest only had scales in the front for testing purposes?

Fact:

80% of 401 marines who died from torso injuries in 2004 would have lived had they been wearing Dragon Skin since bullets struck the soft portion of their vests. This is fact, you cannot refute this. Bad guys in iraq don't have high-power AP machine guns or anti-material sniper rifles.

Clearly, the army is playing favorites here:

Instead of giving each soldier a more effective .45 pistol, they continue to issue pussy 9mm beretta pistols.

Army insists the m4 is the premier assault weapon when Delta Force are already using the unjammable and state of the art HK416

Case in point.

Posted by: David Hambling at July 3, 2007 01:37 PM

You can argue over Dragon Skin if you like, but to say the the IBA is the premier system. . . well, not to my eyes. I suppose it depends, as ever, on the intended use. There's also no question it's gotten better in the latest iteration. It's just a few years behind Paraclete and Eagle (and perhaps a few others) technology wise, which is not too shabby for government procurement. There is a darker truth here. You can only field so many products, so fast, for so much money. Drawing from a limited resource pool, the government has to judge whether enhanced equipment in other areas and training might not be a more cost effective life saving measure. It might not make you feel warm and fuzzy when you wear the stuff, but if "perfect" armor saves 100 lives a year and better equipment and training saves 150. . . where is the money better spent?

Posted by: DJL2 at July 3, 2007 07:16 AM

Interceptor saves lives. Dragonskin can't even pass an FAT test which means there are critical issues wwith it. The issue of the disks coming unglued or unattached is the biggest problem I've seen. I bet if you tested DS in the field in Iraq it would fail catostrophicly. The day to day temperature swings, with being in excess of 125 degrees at times and then being in an air conditioned base or even slightly cooler than 80 degrees would cause the disks to eventually disattach and slump to the bottom of the vest. Until the issues are addressed there is nothing better than Interceptor. To anyone who thinks differently then the smell in the air arround you is chicken shit. And you are looking for reasons to get out of your duties to this country. Hey if I had a choice of not going to Iraq I wouldn't but as a soldier you gotta do what you gotta do. I have been in two tours and have been through a lot but I know one thing is for certain my comrads and I weren't worried about our equipment. All you can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst so to all you who are gonna be deployed, good luck and keep good faith because we all need it. I recommend these steps for daily inspiration. 1. Remember the fallen soldiers and fight in their honor 2. Tell yourself you are gonna make it. And beleive it. Because you will. 3. Don't see it as a death sentence. Too many soldiers can get depressed in those conditions. If you have free time use it to socialize or play sports or guitar or whatever you are in to. 4. It's always good to talk to your family back home. I didn't always have a chance to do this, but when you can you'll see that it makes a hell of a difference in your attitude and well being. 5. Finally when you get home don't hesitate to get extensive counseling and also talk with your comrads about your experience because they are really the only ones that can understand those experiences.

Posted by: Message In Blood at July 1, 2007 07:42 PM

Why is this pointless discussion still going on when Phillip Coyle one of Dragon Skins main pushers clearly admitted to congress that “Dragon Skin is not ready for prime time”?
My God, I think I've just won the entire argument.

Posted by: Jim at July 1, 2007 07:08 AM

Why is this pointless and blatantly vulgar discussion still going on when the designer of Interceptor Body Armor is clearly shown admitting to the NBC crew that his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin?

My God, I think I've just won the entire arguement.

Good Night.

Posted by: Trax at July 1, 2007 12:27 AM

Hey washouts, I don't go arround franticly weighing my vest like a girl, I gave an estimate and I don't give a shit what it weighs as long as it works. It's funny how many idiots say they are in military and then try to say the armor is faulty or too heavy. Grow up and quit bitching. Idon't know where you came up with a vest hindering marksmanship. Is your body so puny that the vest slides down your soldiers? Over the years I've trained to carry a ruck sack that can weigh at times in excess of 70 lbs for very long distances. If you are real soldiers you will stop being little bitches about your gear. Any further replies will be seen as being made by wannabes anyway. The soldiers in Iraq don't complain about their gear because they are real soldiers so fuck you! If this message bothers you, you can kiss my fucking asshole.

Posted by: Message In Blood at June 29, 2007 12:24 AM

To Message in Blood (Army Ranger). 28 Pounds? You must be carrying only a couple magazines and an expensive knife or something. And I have a sneaking suspicion you forgot the plates. As for hindering marksmanship, the IBA does. It has nothing to do with the weight. It's the fact that the bulk of the vest hinders a solid base for the buttstock of your weapon (I apologise for assuming, but I am guessing you carry an M-16, as you appear to be a non-combat arms "ranger") As for critisizing others for poor spelling, check your post. The rule is "i" before "e", except after "c", or sounding like "a" in neighbor and weigh. Punk Bitch.

Posted by: SarcasmIsAwesome at June 28, 2007 07:38 AM

Hey Army Ranger. If your IBA weighs just 28 pounds, you might want to put your fuckin SAPI plates in and start carrying a full combat load. Oh, I see, you are carrying all the needed gear because you are a FOBBIT. By the way, I don't have a dragon skin, I wear my IBA with my plates and a full combat load and its a hell of a lot heavier than 28 pounds but that has never nor will it ever stop me from doing my job.

Posted by: JT at June 28, 2007 03:29 AM

E4, Dragon Skin doesn't solve any of your mentioned problems because it's arkward heavier and failed several ballistic tests! Do a little research before you post

Posted by: Jim at June 25, 2007 04:52 AM

Hey 4E, I don't know what vest you were issued but mine with all the necesary equipment included weighs about 28lbs. I'm an ARMY RANGER and I have been through two gruelling deployments. I think you're either a dillusional Dragonskin fanatic or you just can't carry the weight like the rest of our forces. My marksmanship has nothing to do with the weight of my vest and I have carried numerous comrades to safety with no problems at all. So maybe you see your vest as making you 40% weaker but I think my vest makes me 40% stronger. come on dude, you can't even spell own and you expect me to beleive your tash? Wake the fuck up man if you say you're in military then act like it and stop being a little weak bitch. Punk Mother Fucker.

Posted by: Message In Blood at June 24, 2007 11:17 PM

Why in the hell would you be recomending this for insurgents? You dumb ass screw you and semper fi.

Posted by: The Marine at June 23, 2007 06:32 PM

IM A SOLDIER WHO IS CURRENTLY SERVING A 3RD YR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND CAN FROM EXPERIENCE SAY THAT THE INTERCEPTOR RENDORS A SOLDIER TACTICALLY WEAKER BY ATLEAST 40% IN EVERY WAY, MY ARMOR WITH AMMO AND EQUIPMENT WEIGHS ABOUT 60LBS AND PREVENTS ME FROM MOVING FREELY, RENDERS COORDINATION, WEAKENS MARKSMANSHIP, EXITING AND ENTERING A GUNTRUCK, BECOMES OVERLLY EXAUSTING WHEN ON PATROL FOR ENDLESS HRS, AND CARRYING A WOUNDED COMRAD TO SAFETY CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE.. IF THE DRAGON SKIN CAN FIX THESE ISSUES, LIGHTENING THE LOAD, MORE FLEXIBILITY AND HELPING US MOVE TACTICALLY AND PROFICENTALLY AS WE SHOULD BE THEN THESE SENIOR LDRS NEED TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT MONEY AND START THINKING ABOUT SAVING OUR LIVES AND LET US USE IT... I WOULD BUY MY OUN IF I DIDNT THINK MY FAMILLY TO BE CHEATED ON MY LIFE INSURANCE45

Posted by: 4E at June 20, 2007 08:07 AM

why is this argument still going when the youtube movies clearly show the creator of interceptor admitting that dragon skin was by far superior?

my god, i think i just won the entire arguement.

Posted by: Trax at June 19, 2007 03:44 PM

I am in the Army and with yet another upcoming deployment I welcome any body armor that is better than ours. As far as problems with either system, all I can say is nothing is perfect. One final note, I personally have ordered a set of dragon skin shoulder armor.

Posted by: Ryan at June 18, 2007 11:12 PM

Good one Paul. Do you really think I'm gonna put my e-mail address on this forum. Besides, my time in the military went well and there are problems in every situation in life and the issues were compounded by heat and chaffing and not a manufacturing error or something that you media fucks would like to get a hold of to lower our soldiers morale.

Posted by: Mike at June 18, 2007 10:35 PM

On May 22, "staff sgt." and "mike luchenbach" posted complaints about Interceptor (weight, rash, immobility). I'm a reporter who's been reading this message board and would like to know more. Is there a way to reach you?

Posted by: paul at June 18, 2007 09:57 AM

goodbye!

Posted by: Jaco at June 15, 2007 05:03 PM

hello?

Posted by: s at June 12, 2007 06:50 PM

William and Allan D. Bain's silence is a result of a cock in their mouth. More coverage from Dragon Skin makes sure that their mouths are covered. You know I'm right. And look at how those two stop posting at almost the same time. Makes you wonder, huh?

If i was in the military i would buy dragon skin and defy the orders. If they court martial me, I will hire the greatest attorney of U.S. history to save soldiers from unecessary injuries.

Posted by: Cola at June 4, 2007 07:10 PM

you serve? please tell me you bought and wear dragon skin and not submit to the request of those rich old men. fight it with boldness and courage devil dog. hoo-ah!

Posted by: Coke at June 4, 2007 07:04 PM

I bet Mr.Bain will change his e-mail address after that great beating. But hopefully not cause it's great to write a few paragraphs and then bash him about being a fag. Big ups to Devil Dog you kick ass.

Posted by: Grunt123Grunt123 at June 3, 2007 10:29 PM

Try being in military and not being allowed to use the better armor Coke. It really sucks. I mean they had to bust out the other-worldly conditions to make it barely fail. That is bullshit.

Posted by: Grunt123Grunt123 at June 3, 2007 10:26 PM

Holy crap dude! Dragon Skin stopped more bullets than the standard U.S. armor and had around 20mm of trauma every shot while the Interceptor had around 30-50mm, and also stopped three very powerful bullets. It was also flexible and covers more than 95% of your torso from those nasty rifle bullets, and it defeated a point blank detonation of an m67 fragger!

I am never joining the military unless I get to use this stuff. Period.

Posted by: Coke at June 3, 2007 05:56 PM

Allan Bain is a closeted homosexual.
For confirmation of this or for a free 18 in. dildo e-mail him at .http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Posted by: Devil Dog at June 3, 2007 03:45 PM

Allan Bain is a closeted homosexual.
For confirmation of this or for a free 18 in. dildo e-mail him at .http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Posted by: Devil Dog at June 3, 2007 03:44 PM

The leathernecks have spoken and have dominated these forums like everything else. Allan Bain and his fag buddy William have been ousted and rightfully so.

Posted by: Leatherneck at June 3, 2007 03:26 PM

IBA sucks

Posted by: 123 at June 2, 2007 06:32 PM

Christian,

Isn't there something you can do to pull jerk off posts making lewd sexual comments off the posting??

Anyway I am done posting go here for our statement about DS and the IBA debate:

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html

Any constructive criticism or positive feedback is welcomed and should be directed to info@evolutionarmor.com

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at June 1, 2007 01:37 PM

Where is Allan Bain I called him last night and he didn't answer. We were supposed to have gay sex. I swallow as well, in all holes.

Posted by: William at May 31, 2007 12:43 PM

william sucks cock for a living and has a pussy behind that little 1/2inch sorry excuse for a cock of his.(deffinately a faggot ass) obviously doesnt know shit about shit, and wants a personal meeting with the Devil Dogs.check yourself talking shit about Marines ya fukkin sorry excuse for a human being weak ass pussy motherfucker.someone might take it personal.fuck ass william-gay name too.fag.

Posted by: chin check squad at May 30, 2007 07:22 PM

William down before you blow a gasket.

The designer of Interceptor admits his armor is inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :)

Also, while you Army folks enforce an "equal ban" on Dragon Skin, you let select elite troops and your generals wear it. It all adds up. Good thing I learned my 5th grade math.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 30, 2007 06:49 PM

You are wrong Dragonskin failed it all. You are the fag you punk ass bitch. Interceptor is the best and you all know it. Allan Bain is the only one who has something better than Interceptor. And the Marines aren't good at testing anyways, all they do is yell at people and make people feel horrible for not being inhuman.

Posted by: William at May 30, 2007 04:57 PM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

You still don't believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it...I'm beginning to see a pattern here...Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC...Yep and Dragon Skin can't stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I'm sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you're going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 04:30 PM

Who is this Allan Bain guy? I checked out his website and all I saw was copies of Dragonskin, what a hack. The only guy making any sense of this situation is Leatherneck.

DEVIL DOGS FOREVER!!!
SEMPER FI!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Riggs at May 29, 2007 02:16 PM

If only Marines had tested this armor, there wouldn't have been a media circus surrounding it.
It's rediculous for the Army to play into this controversy at all. If anyone (Allan Bain) has something in the works, you should stop pre-hyping your product and come to us Marines to have it tested when you think it's ready. We could have worked with Dragonskin on their issues but they chose to take (what they thought) would be the easier route. That's typical of anyone with armor designs, they pass up Marines for Army and now everyone can see the faults instead of the corrected problems that Marines can achieve. We don't play games in the Marines, we don't play he said-she said, we see if the product is up to our standards and if it is then it's good for all military.

Posted by: Leatherneck at May 29, 2007 08:40 AM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

You still don't believe me? Watch MSNBC, Fatty. They worked hard to get the facts out in that report. Army bans Dragon Skin? Right, and their generals and elite troops still wear it...I'm beginning to see a pattern here...Then we witness Dragon Skin outperform Interceptor by huge margins on side by side test on NBC...Yep and Dragon Skin can't stop bullets. Sure. Keep lying, I'm sure your stock portfolio is blossoming. Ever thought about what you're going to do with all that money? Give it to the famlies of the troops you and your factless arguements screwed over by making them wear crappy armor.

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 12:12 AM

No dave. I cant believe all the things you say. All wrong.
the inventor of INTERCEPTOr said his armor is worse, not the inventor of Dragon Skin.

and

Dragon Skin passes drop tests

its funny argueing with people like you. it's like dealing with children. they keep saying the same thing over and over, and totally oblivious to the facts. LoL!

@ Allan

Your plan to shoot down Dragon Skin and advertise your own armor isn't working on me. It may work on those like Dave who have no brain.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 29, 2007 12:09 AM

Dear Joseph,

The temperature extremes are not about testing a siutation where "you would wear armor" and operate in -25 - +160 F extremes in a day to day operation; its about excelerated aging whereby the testers get a view as to how expansion and contraction of the product effects the armor. It is completely relevent, and accelerated age testing is used in just about all industries in this day and age.

I don't think you should be calling others on this forum retards, it's imflamitory, and unnecessary, and detracts from intelligent discussion.

Posted by: Allan D. Bain at May 28, 2007 04:44 PM

Dear Txzen,

Do you know how much it would weigh with the best ceramic armor in place to cover 97% of your body to protect against an "elephant gun"? probably a 100 Lbs. Or if he really used hi tech solutions using some of the emerging technologies and they really lived up to the performance increase, do you know how much each suit would cost, Not including the "bear repellant spray appartus" just take a guess and add two more zeros per unit.

That Bear repellant spray demonstration really sinched it for me, the lead in of being surrounded by 40 insurgents closing in, what are you going to do? I imagined his solution to be nerve gas grenades or some kind of mass delivery device emminating from his suit, and the soldier would be immuned because of the suit's positive ventilation. THe actual demonstration was a big let down, and I would bet the rest of the suit is too, but hey I have been wrong before.

On a positive note, as far a prototype representation for this concept armor I thought that was real impressive, nice vision, excellent
prototyping skills.

Posted by: Allan D. BAin at May 28, 2007 04:34 PM

Every ESAPI lot passes the drop test. Does that mean you should punsh it with an baseball bat or drop it? No...Do you hit your MITCH with slegdehammer? Is it fragile because of that? Dragon Skin even failed the minimum drop test.
Plane --> Iraq ?
What can this mean? Perhaps: plane -25 degrees
Iraq 120 degrees?
Also temperatures in vehicles can easily come up to 160 degrees and your vest falls apart.
The "inventor" of Dragon Skin says that it is right now inferior to IBA.
I can't understand what you want. Everybody wants better body armor. When Dragon Skin is improved and fullfits FAT (=minimum quality standarts for military use) and offers equal protection for equal weight you can argue for your points again. But I am sure that in this case it would be bought without your wise advice. Right now you seem to pimp a product that not even meets basic qualitiy standarts and is heavier than 1st generation RBA.

Posted by: Dave at May 28, 2007 12:33 PM

Interceptor's designer said that his armor was inferior to Dragon Skin. I think I just won the entire arguement there :D.

Posted by: Dragon Skin at May 27, 2007 08:28 PM

Another fucking retard to dismantle. Why should the plate say handle with care if it passed a drop test you stupid fuck? What does "Temperature switch minus 25 to 120 -->?" mean? There isn't a difference between Fragile and Handle with care shit head.

Posted by: Joseph at May 27, 2007 05:14 PM

ESAPI plates passed drop test! That's why it is called ESAPI-test protocol.
I guess you never saw a SAPI, because there is nowhere the word fragile.
Next time army doesn't print "handle with care" on any item because of bad publicity.
Temperature switch minus 25 to 120. Plane --> Iraq?

Posted by: Dave at May 27, 2007 03:26 PM

Damn straight and there ain't no way Interceptor would survive the drop test so that's the worst arguement ever, they have the word FRAGILE on them dumbass. Who's next?

Posted by: PanFuckinTeraCFH at May 26, 2007 05:09 PM

The only reason it failed is because they wanted it to. Have you ever heard of being in minus 25 degrees one minute and then one second later been in temperatures exceeding 120? Now I don't know if those temps are right but they were probably even more extreme. So I don't know what planet you live on CB but those conditions don't exist on this planet or at least not in that rapid of a succesion. THEY WILL LOSE MONEY IF THEY GO WITH DRAGONSKIN AND THAT IS THE ONLY REASON THEY SABBOTAGED IT. JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF US SOLDIERS
BEING SHORT CHANGED FOR FINANCIAL REASONS.

Posted by: At War With Everything at May 26, 2007 11:37 AM

OK, so what if the National Institute of Justice may have certified a vest at Level III for civilian use. That is a lesser standard, no temperature requirements, no oil/fuel/sea water spills, no drop tests.

What does that have to do with the fact the the level IV tactical military product failed when subjected to military tests?

Posted by: CB at May 25, 2007 11:45 PM

Actually from what I understand most armor works better at an angle including dragon skin. A flush 90 degree shot is the most devastating, and dragon skin uses to this it's advantage as most shots will hit at an angle on one of the discs.

Posted by: txzen at May 24, 2007 08:27 PM

Hey..how about shooting it from an angle...I bet those beautiful round SA works great....not all shots come at you dead in front of you...
Stop the sales pitch we know better profiteers...

Posted by: Kick ass at May 24, 2007 08:14 PM

Hey dudes Dragonskin is my fav. You can see me in several movies including The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2, House Of 1000 Corpses, and The Devil's Rejects just to name a few. I bought a Dragonskin vest to play arround with and I've shot it up and it's still holding it's integrity.
Lick the plate you dog dick.HA HA HA.

Posted by: Mr. Moseley at May 24, 2007 04:11 PM

Yes siree, and use Dragon Skin for armor and get more MRAP vehicles and give soldiers more benefits/money. That's how to do it.

Posted by: Dog of War at May 24, 2007 02:44 PM

I know how America can win the war. KILL'EM ALL LET GOD SORT'EM OUT. The truth hurts but losing hurts more.

Posted by: Rambeau Reincarnated at May 23, 2007 11:47 PM

O.K. I found the Trojan suit that's made by the bear suit guy. It looks pretty kick-ass but it's only a prototype. I wish I could buy it and use it but that ain't gonna happen. Still though, I think he's going in the right direction with the idea and it will probably be a reality in say, 2032 or something. Whoever buys that suit off e-bay is a lucky bastard because that shit is just cool.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:45 PM

I'm really interested in that Trojan armor you were talking about. Where can I see it because 97%
body coverage is fuckin awesome. Hell if it is better than DS then why are we wasting our time?

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:33 PM

I think the X-rays are a valid point. However the adhesive issue is very easy to fix. Let me ask you this have you ever been in minus 25 degree weather and then one second later been in 120 degree weather? Me neither.And I'm not sure if those are the right temperatures but you get the idea. I think the ARMY is willing to accept Dragon Skin if they address that one issue or at least I hope so. Gen. Brown has to tell it like it is. He knows that if DS fixes the adhesive issue that the Interceptor will not be competiton.
He also said if there is better armor we'll buy it
after it's live fire tested so I hope we can get this to some sort of resolution. If you're reading this Pinnacle Armor, fix the addhesive so that drastic temperatures don't effect it. If you aren't reading this then I'll e-mail you anyways.
I'm doing everything I can to make sure we have the best for the best.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 23, 2007 07:28 PM

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf good pdf some people cite a lack of accreditation and letter head and documentation but gen brown I think presented parts of it in Wash DC or something like that

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 04:59 PM

Interesting comments from current soldiers, thanks. What do you guys think of the x-rays showing lots of discs being displaced because of extreme temps and the first test of a 1st or 2nd shot penetration on the middle upper chest at ambient temp? I have seen all the pinnacle videos and the test lab and the future weapons and the mail call videos and the nbc tests and DS looked great but the armies x-rays really do show a different story. Is it just the extreme temps and a lucky shot at ambient temp? Or mischaracterization? Or just not a big deal because IBA won't protect there anyway?

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 04:50 PM

Exactly SSG Barret, I too wanted to wear DS instead of IBA but I couldn't risk my career. I want to make sure that everyone knows that we are being short changed in military. It's not practical for us to wear armor that has these weaknesses that insurgents and Al Qaeda operatives can exploit. We need to cut the snake of at the head and get our armor upgraded. We need more MRAP vehicles as well. I have already been wonded once wearing the Interceptor, I was given a Purple Heart and they offered me a desk job for the remainder of my service. I did not accept the desk job and will also be back in action soon. I am a Staff Sgt. and I train my soldiers to have inhuman-like endurance therefore, this type of shit can't break their psychy but it is yet another subject that eats on them. I give them my word that what they are issued is the best but now I'm not so sure. I am also writing my state senators and I encourage you to do the same, certainly if we all write they'll have to listen. This issue deserves congressional attention and if I have to I'll write a million letters until my voice is heard. I always like to start my letters with: I am a Purple Heart recipient and I will be on an extended tour of duty soon. I would like to address an issue near and dear to my heart, I am very concerned that we are not getting the proper equipment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mainly the issue of body armor haunts me at night, I would like for a full-unbiased test of Dragonskin's armor. I know that there are many,many things that need to be addressed as well but at least this will be a good start..............

Posted by: Staff Sgt. TD at May 23, 2007 04:37 PM

Well I have read all the BS on here and laugh at some of the idiotic comments....Murray Neal never lied...if you looked at the website Pre December 2006 he stated it was in the process of being NIJ Level III certified and in his own words passed those criteria...and behold it did. I am a SSG on active duty, on my second tour in Iraq...And yes I am a trigger puller. I wore IBA my first tour because in 03/04 it was the best we had... NOW I wear a dragon skin SOV 2000.. comfort, coverage, and reliabilty are what this gives me...IBA's approach to keep adding to a carrier that was crap was bad and is wrong. To have our troops using hard plate armor that I have seen fail with gaps in coverage is unexcuseable. I will forever be thankfull to my family for helping me purchase my Dragon Skin, I didnt buy into the Hype I bought the best, the tests show it, The Army I am sure will be changing over some day..probably after a congressional hearing...bueracrats, lobbyists, and certain persons in command should beware, the truth will come out. To say it failed 13 of 48 shots. Where were the shots placed... the shoulders are not ment to stop rifle rounds. We are only trying to protect vital organs and the torso. Even the IBA doesnt give protection here. Most soldiers that are shot from 7.62 x 39 are only hit once maybe twice if they are unlucky, so the possibility that a vest will take multiple rounds is unlikely, also soldiers that I have that wear IBA must replace a ESAPI after one hit, because we are told the plate is comprimised, I thought it could withstand many more than that...I will continue to violate the ban and hope congress acts quickly.

Posted by: Sean Barrett at May 23, 2007 03:16 PM

What are you talking about William? Why no one wants to comment on Trojan full body armor with 97 percent coverage with ceramics that have stopped elephant gun rounds! I like that inventor I hope he gets an official test soon. I would like to know if he is a crack pot or an innovator.

Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 01:48 PM

William's silence is due to a cock in his mouth.
More coverage is better than less coverage regardless of weight. You know I'm right.

Posted by: Snapkick at May 23, 2007 02:52 AM

Do you hear that?................The silence is deafening!

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 11:02 PM

How do you like me now?

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 11:00 PM

You think IBA is the best? have you seen the trojan suit? http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1168470616997&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1014656511815
If you were going to be the first man through the door of an insurgent hideout which would you like to be in? keep in mind you could probably wear IBA over the trojan suit. If they are used to carrying 100 pounds anyway then 75 pounds on a mission wouldn't be so bad.
(this is just to lighten things up btw)

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 05:48 PM

Hey punks Interceptor is the best.
That's all I have to say.

Posted by: ARMY STRONG at May 22, 2007 04:57 PM

My brother who is 19 is in Iraq right now. He has heard about this Dragonskin and so has his platoon. They know that it's hard to get anything accomplished when you are fighting yourself. His commanders have talked to Gen. Patraeus and he has been fighting for everything that will help them achieve progress. Our armor needs to change and if you can't see that then you are blind.

Posted by: Vick at May 22, 2007 03:42 PM

I am not an expert on this issue but after watching the entire NBC report I strongly believe that the army should retest (comparison test) dragonskin again, preferably with some independent observers present. The army spokepersons were evasive, sticking to a very unconvincing script that did not explain any of the problems raised by the reporter. I hope that the army will relent and have fair, unbiased testing done soon, unburdened by conflict of interest - the men and women serving in the army deserve that!

Posted by: Thor Thorson at May 22, 2007 02:15 PM

It's about time someone made some sense Staff Sgt.
I was an Infantryman and served in Iraq in 2004.
You bring up issues that I too went through. The rubbing isn't that bad for the first few weeks but after a few months I started breaking out and that led to the rash that you most likely encountered like me. I noticed if I had to take a shit and didn't want to take my vest off that it was almost impossible. Now that isn't a very good arguement but it was a problem more than once for me. I also had issues with the necesary tightness as I was told, it has to be tight so that the impact of a bullet doesn't have any room to cause worse trauma. I thought to myself, what the fuck?
The other thing is that the insurgents have known about the weaknesses at least since I was there. I recall seeing a leaflett that was in a suspected Al Qaedah opperative's house (or compound I should say) the leaflett had a picture of the Interceptor vest and in red highlighting were areas of high fatality risks as our interpereter conveyed. It is time for a change in our armor and I have taken your advice sir and been spreading the word to whoever really cares to write their senators or anyone who will get this issue to congress.

Posted by: Mike Luchenbach at May 22, 2007 01:40 PM

I'm pretty sure that more coverage and more weight is better than less coverage and less weight. If you think the average foot soldier would take less coverage for less weight instead of more coverage and more weight then you don't know any Infantrymen. For one Dragonskin is weight proportionate. I experienced something I like to call Interceptor Rash when I was in Iraq. The cause of this was the heat and sweat combined with the Interceptor's shoulder straps. It was so bad after three weeks that there were scabs forming and I lost a lot of necessary sleep because every time I'd roll to my side I'd scrape the scabs causing them to bleed. I did however get used to this and eventually my skin toughened up but at the time it was just anoyher problem that I had no controll over. The problem is if you tighten your vest as much as possible you start to feel light headed after about thirty minutes. If you let the vest have a little play it starts to rub you the wrong way so to speak. I think Dragon Skin could address that issue and provide substantially more coverage. Interceptor has issues that aren't easily solved; the weight of the vest is centered arround pulling down on your soldiers, the armor doesn't give much room for crouching, there are major weak points which insurgents already know of, I found that the armor can be restrictive to heavy breathing such as if you were sprinting, I swear if you were to have a sneeze attack you'd get a hernia because you can't really exert force and bend because of the plates, and the side plates also bring about rash issues for some of the soldiers. Some of the problems are minor I must admit but the combination of these problems can't be ignored. I beleive DS can address those issues and provide us with a better feeling soldier instead of an exhausted and irritated soldier.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 01:17 PM

I would just like to correct what I said the pinnacle rep did not tell me that 10x12 weighs 4.95 I got that off the website and it is likely for sov2000 and not 3000 so it is just more questions.

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 01:04 PM

The ratios are just showing that per pound of vest how much coverage from rifle protection you get. I doesn't say it is lightweight but it might prove something is more efficient. Also the 80 percent more than 10x12 coverage full torso wrap means that the vest covers something like 2.9 for smaller vests and my calculations to 4 or so square feet for x-large vests the iba has coverage of 2.25 so yes the vest does likely weigh more but it covers more. The military sales rep told me that the full torso wrap wich covers by my calculations 414 square inches weighs 36 pounds total where the 10x12 plate that covers 115 square inches weighs 4.95 lbs. So ratios not withstanding the vest tested by karl masters covers more than the IBA we can agree that is one reason it weighs more. Now I would like to know exactly how much a similar coverage DS weighs. I might try to work it out later. BUt I don't know the kevlar weight of a ds so it might take another call to Pinnacle and they seem busy I feel bad bothering them with intent to purchase.

Posted by: txzen at May 22, 2007 12:22 PM

The issue of cost is the only problem with Dragon Skin. At a time where a lot of soldiers are buying their own Interceptors due to either a shortage or just late notice of deployment, it's easy to see why we can't get something that costs more but is worth the price. Hell they don't even want to reimburse soldiers for buying the armor that is supposedley standard issue.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 09:25 AM

I,m fighitng for more coverage and if it weighs more then so be it. We can train for the weight additions but we can't train for the deaths that come from lesser coverage. I don't care if it weighs ten pounds more that is something that we can strengthen soldiers for anyways. Trust me I've worn the Interceptor for prolonged periods of time, the vulnerable areas might protect from handguns or small-low-velocity shrapnel but Dragon Skin protects against rifle rounds and higher velocity shrapnel. You kids don't seem to understand that this issue has to be addressed now before there are more casualties. I encourage anyone who is truly cocerned to write your state senators and try to get this issue to congress where it can be sorted out more thuroughly.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 22, 2007 09:07 AM

txzen your calculation makes no sense. Soft armor that is not backing up hard armor has nothing to do with rifle protection. The kevlar around plates is not a "carrier".It is designed to stop shrapnel etc. If you think you need no soft armor you can buy a plate carrier which is due to your logic extremly weight efficient as rifle protection is concerned. On the other hand a vest with attached groin protector and DAP would be extremly inefficient.
Your calculation makes no sense at all. It neither says that same coverage with plates is heavier nor it makes the SOV3000 lightweight. It is a math trick to make it appear lightweight.

If you want to see weight efficience of a hard armor system you have to compare the hard armor system alone because the different soft armor backings won't really make a difference. (To be correct OTV is actually a bit inefficient because of overlapping)
Pinnacle is offering the weights of SOV2000 10*12 panels. It is 4,95lb. Modern multihit capable (I know most won't take so many rounds but no plate has to stand up more than couple of hits) level III 10x12 plates weight between 3 and 4,5lb. Heavier plates are stand alone, ancient, made of steel or al. oxide.
Or SOV3000 10x12 panels are about 7,5lb. ESAPI's weight is 5,45lb.
OR if you want to calculate different with soft armor: A medium IBA with an 80% increase of rifle protection to traditional 10x12 plates would weight (10,9x 0,8)+10,9 (ESAPI)+ 7,66 (OTV)=27,28lb. You said Neal told you an equal vest made of DS weights 36lb. So it is a lot heavier.
As rifle coverage is concerned Dragon Skin is heavier for every covered inch.
I understand that people want more coverage, but you have to carry the weight for additional coverage and increased weight of Dragon Skin.
If you want to increase your rifle protection get XS Esapi instead of your ESBI. As coverage is concerned it is nearly like full torso wrap.

Posted by: Christian at May 22, 2007 04:27 AM

Look at this link about NBC tactics during their journalistic testing practices.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/nbc.html

Posted by: William at May 22, 2007 12:53 AM

To clarify, I think DragonSkin is better and would like to use it. The coverage is better the weight is well distributed and it defeats more (API) rounds than Interceptor. The Interceptor is unflexible and uncomfortable even though it ways a little less it also can't defeat as many (API) rounds and holdit's integrity or even stop the bullets.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 08:05 PM

William...I am sorry, Christian Lowe.

Well my sources come from pretty high up the chain of command in DC and I have to believe that you do indeed have some share stock with DHB and or BAE and well I have seen the emails that came across my desk and until proven otherwise, you look and sound like Christian Lowe.

Posted by: TJ at May 21, 2007 08:02 PM

More Coverage = Less Casualties DUH!!!
Dragon Skin Beats the fuck out of Interceptor on areal coverage and that's what I want for my soldiers and myself, more coverage with more mobility, I think it's a great trade off anyways.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 08:00 PM

TJ, I work for a security company we have no affiliations to the companies you listed. You are so far off base it is funny. Are you doing your Barney Fife impersonation again? LOL

Posted by: William at May 21, 2007 07:18 PM

sov 2000 10x12 plates are listed at 4.95 lbs on the dragon skin website

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 06:10 PM

No actually the numbers are total weight for the system as worn divided by rifle coverage area. So the ratio is TOTAL weight over AREA OF COVERAGE. So webbing is counted kevlar pistol protection is counted. So basically it is a way to see how much rifle protection you get per pound carried. A single plate might have a more attractive number but we are using it to compare two systems that both include kevlar and webbing, so I think it's fair. Just showing that if the ratio is low the more weight you carry means more protection area. So scaling it down effects weight more than coverage and vice versa.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 06:08 PM

txzen your calculations are nice, but they hardly make any sense. They are not weight per area. They are a strange form of weight/ rifle protection ratio. You only count hard armor protection not soft armor as coverage is concerned and both as weight is concerned. That makes no sense. With your logic a Dragon skin with ESAPI sized inserts would also own a higher "weight per area". Your calculations suggest that a plate carrier would be the perfect form of body armor.
You have to compare the hard armor inserts for equal coverage. The easiest way is to compare 10x12 to 10x12 inserts. You will notice that Dragon Skin panels are really heavier than any modern plate system.
Also your calculation do not decrease real weight of the vests. If you want larger coverage you still have to compare e.g. a L sized IBA to a XL sized SOV3000. You nearly have a 20lb difference. staff sgt. has no problem with that but I am pretty sure most soldiers will.
If you decrease coverage the Dragon Skin concept makes hardly any sense.

Posted by: Christian at May 21, 2007 05:13 PM

To: William....Or Christain Lowe your real name?

From: TJ SWAT SGT, Former Marine Recon:

Real Name and Affiliation Exposure.

So William.

My contacts back in DC tell me your real name is Christian Lowe. Is that true?

They tell me you have been hired by the Army and in fact are a share holder in DHB or BAE, the company who just put in a bid to take over Armor Holdings.

My contacts are good.

If you are indeed Christain Lowe, which my guys have confirmed this, then your comments in this forum are worthless and meritless.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer."

Posted by: TJ at May 21, 2007 03:45 PM

Nice try, but I never said it weighed less, I'm just proving that the coverage is better with Dragonskin. There is more armor on Dragonskin period, who cares if it weighs a few pounds more. I know I don't, especialy if you get more protection.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 03:36 PM

I noticed that type about the weight of the IBA, it is in fact does not effect the calculations. If you take 2.25 times 13.8 you get 31.1. Also as I said I called pinnacle and they told me a sov 3000 full front and back torso wrap weighs 36 pounds. 36 pounds divided by 3.4 sqaure feet of coverage is 10.5. IBA by your standards is 27 pounds divided by 2.25 sqft 12. Now by my calculations from the website dragon skin covers 2.9 square feet so 36/2.9 is 12.4. Now that isn't huge differences but somewere in there MIGHT be the truth.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 03:32 PM

Nice you finally found the "truth". This document was also presented on defensetech. Sadly there are some disturbing faults. A medium sized IBA doesnt weight 33lb. The document first states that it is 31lb, then during calculation its weight is 33lb without any explanation. Both weights are wrong. A medium sized IBA weights 26,5lb (28,3 with groin protector)
A large IBA with side and ESAPI weights 28lb.
You have to compare weights of a large IBA (28lb) to an XL SOV3000 (47,5lb) because Pinnacles sizes are smaller.
The statement that rifle protection offered by Dragon Skin is "lightweight" in comparison to IBA or other plate systems is completly wrong. Simply compare weights of 10*12 Dragon Skin panels to plates. You will see that Dragon Skin is heavier for every covered square inch. This absurd statement shows that you can't trust any of Pinnacle's misleading information. Sadly sizing and maths tricks are not suited to reduce weight.
Staff Sargent if you donnot believe, visit PEO soldier and the "dragon show" article. The author wore Dragon skin and confirms that you have to wear XL for L sized Interceptor. He also states that it is substancially heavier. Or if you are serving weight your IBA and buy a Dragon Skin. Perhaps you'll find truth then.

Posted by: Christian at May 21, 2007 02:54 PM

O.K I found the truth at www.sftt.org
The Army purchased three sizes of vests for the FAT testing: Medium, Large, and X-Large. For each size, the Army ordered the maximum full torso wrap, rifle defeating coverage configurations.The size Medium has A total of 3.40 square feet of rifle coverage and weighed in at 33.15 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 9.75 pounds per square foot. The size Large has a total of 4.05 square feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 40.96 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per squre foot.
The size X-large has a total of 4.40 squre feet of rifle defeating coverage and weighed in at 46.13 pounds. The weight per area (with ballistic protection) in this size/configuration is 10.48 pounds per square foot.

The difference among the total weights for the three sizes of Dragon Skin is because the weights were based on the weight of the whole vest, not just the armor pannels without the carrier as the Army base their weight comparrisons on. The larger the vest the more carrier and webbing material that is used, adding to the weight of Interceptor but not to the ballistic protection.
The Army is comparing the size medium Interceptor OTV with two 10"x12" inch plates and two 6"x7" inch side plates, witha total square footage of 2.25 square feet of rifledefeating (ballistic) coverage,and a weight of 31.1 pounds (according to Army and Marine Corps Systems Command data).
The weight per area (with ballistic protection)
in this size/configuration Interceptor vest is 13.82 pounds per square foot. Therefore, comparing a size medium Dragonskin with a size medium Interceptor:

both vests medium size- DS Int.

Weight (pounds)........... 33.15 33.10

Protected area (sq.ft.)... 3.40 2.25

Weight(lbs.)
per Protected area(sq.ft). 9.75 13.82

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 01:52 PM

For the people who decide not to look at the independent results, shame on you. This is clearly a conflict of interest problem within the Army evaluation organization. Have anybody seen video or procedures of how the Army tested Dragon Skin?

These people will forfeit a few lives if their buddies can maintain their contracts. It's happened before (Bradley, Trophy, Patriot), and it looks like it'll happen again with Dragon Skin.

Posted by: ivandrago at May 21, 2007 01:07 PM

I just called pinnacle and the military sales rep told me that sov 3000 full torso wrap wich is 80 percent bigger per panel than a 10x12, front and back, weights 36 pounds and costs 6009 dollars. Now my math makes it 414 and M. Neal says that the Medium has 3.4 sqare feet of coverage and think 414 sq inches is like 2.9 square feet. He also said he had 500 emails and 3 other lines lit up. He didn't have the exact coverage listed so I extrapolated and then also sighted what neal quoted during his rebuttle.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 10:19 AM

Oh so you want to keep "fighting," I am just saying that the numbers are out there you can find the truth if you look or maybe call. But it seems like some of you just want to flame each other. I was just pointing out we were having an interesting conversation then some flamers came on and started talking trash. Why doesn't IBA come out once and for all and prove it is as good if not better. All they have to do is buy one vest from dragon skin and run it through the tests and put it on you tube. It would be the first evidence that iba is better. Because just passing the GAO test for "good enough" doesn't mean it is the best or better than DS it just means that it meets or surpases some made up criteria. And maybe DS failed that criteria but maybe DS is still better that is the issue, if the adhesive is upgraded and the coverage level of DS is allowed to be similar to the coverage level of IBA then I think we have a real test. Because as it stands DS protects better and protects more area and then is talked badly about because it is heavier if you ask them to protect more by asking for the "full torso wrap" you are going to get a heavier kit. Let them bring a vest that is the same coverage as IBA and let's see. 1000 vest tests would be better of course.

Posted by: txzen at May 21, 2007 10:04 AM

Staff Sgt. the new article (the Dragon skin show)might intress you. In PEO soldier brief there are test results and it is said that a Dragon Skin XL is Interceptor size L. The article itself supports that, because Christian wore DS himself and says the same. That means they are ugly overweight and add about 20lb. But I think you still deserve Dragon Skin lol! I suggest you wear it under your IBA!

Posted by: johnboy at May 21, 2007 09:53 AM

I do deserve Dragonskin cause it's better and once again the numbers don't lie idiot.
Go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/ and then kill yourself.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 02:43 AM

Man are you gullable. If you believe that crap you deserve Dragon Skin.

Posted by: William at May 21, 2007 01:08 AM

The numbers don't lie idiots.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:23 AM

O.K. William we know that you are posting to yourself. Fagget Txzen come on your postings are like the democrats ideas, "come on guys", "lets stop fighting", you are a queer just like William hell you probably are William. Fuck you if you can't handle the truth. William I see a dick in your future it's up your ass from txzen. What a couple of pussies.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:20 AM

I figure since I'm still up I'll post some more test results.

Test #2a
Conducted on Interceptor Level IV vest with ESAPI Plates

1 round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 34mm.
ouch!!!
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition) Results: no penetration and BFS af 41mm. Double ouch
additional round of (armor piercing incindiery ammunition) Results: no penetration and BFS of 37mm.
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 43mm.
additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Result:no penetration but BFS of 51mm.(fails BFS standard) That fuckin hurt!!!! I'm bleeding internally
Additional round of (armor piercing incindiery)
Results:Complete penetration. You do the math!!!!!!

Test #2b
Conducted on Dragonskin level IV Vest
1 round of (armor piercing incindiery amm.)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 26mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 23mm. That's amazing!!!!!!!!!!
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 26mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 23mm.
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 11mm. Now that kicks ass!!!!!!!!!!!!
Add round of (API) Results:no penetration and BFS of 27 mm.

How's that for facts of truth William or whoever tried to sabbotage me. From now on I'll be posting as Staff Sgt. because someone wants to be a punk.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 21, 2007 12:15 AM

that was a lot of cruddy posts, lets just try to find out what the coverage and the weight of dragon skin really is. because if the "adhesive" problem is fixed and seriously this is america we can fix a glue problem and we know dragon skin can be scaled for whatever weight and coverage from 17 pound front and back to 40 pound full torso wrap around.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 11:43 PM

Erica, I see a street corner in your future.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 11:33 PM

Here is where I found the testing results:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 11:25 PM

That's right. BITCH!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:53 PM

We're back William and you have no one on your side. NBC proved Dragonskin and there is no more arguements to be had you douchebag. Oh wait' here is another fact you are a fagget piece of shit who sucks Allan Bains dick everyday. BITCH, don't try to post in Trey's name because he is a real man and you are a panzy power bottom. HAHAHAHA!!!!

Posted by: Erica at May 20, 2007 10:51 PM

To whoever posts in my name (William). You have no one on your side and you're not getting anything accomplished by posting in my name. Dragonskin is better and you can see the results at NBC's website. Soldiers For The Truth is great and I told you before that they get results. And boy have they gotten the results this time. Thanks for the publicity of truth SFTT, if it were not for you the story would not have been viewed as much. I'd also like to take this time to punch William in the face repeatedly and take back my name on this forum. From now on I'll be using different names since William wants to be a fag all the time.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:43 PM

Hey bros, I've been out of town since the 18th so it's obvious to me William is trying to win a losing battle. This is the real Trey and from now on I'll be switching up my posting name and putting the real facts out. Here are the test results from the testing done in Germany.
Conducted on Interceptor level IV vest with ESAPI Plates TEST 1a
1 round of (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no penetration and BFS of 30mm.

Additional round (armor piercing ammunition)
Results:no pen. and BFS of32mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:no pen. and BFS of 47mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results:COMPLETE PENETRATION

Test 1b
Conducted on Dragonskin Level IV test

1 round of (armor piercing amm.)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penetration and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no penn. and BFS of 27mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pennetration and BFS of 24mm.

Additonal round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 23mm.

Additional round (armor piercing)
Results: no pen. and BFS of 20mm.

See the rest of the results at NBC's website.
To william, stop trying to use me for your point of view you punk. Dragonskin will be our armor soon and those are the facts. Why would I post something that cotradicts my previous statements William? I'm pro Dragonskin because it will save lives.

Posted by: Staff Sgt. at May 20, 2007 10:36 PM

The Army does have to answer to someone, the president is the commander and chief and congress still can subpoena officials for answers. The President and Congress are employees of the american people so they do answer to us.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 10:23 PM

My Son is on his way to Iraq and I wish he would be wearing Dragon Skin when he gets there. The testing I saw on NBC sure looked like Dragon Skin was superior.

Posted by: Gary at May 20, 2007 10:18 PM

All of your bitching won't change anything. Interceptor is our armor and it will be. You can whine all you want and I know you will. There are too many issues with it and Pinnacle should either address them or go home. The ARMY doesn't even have to give a reason for not accepting Dragonskin. It's very funny how kids (not even in military) think they know what's best just because some fat bitch and a bunch of has beens say so. Gullable Americans. They didn't show the round specifications so it didn't even change my or anyone in the ARMY's opinion. I bet these so called anomolies are very common for Pinnacle, it looks like they can make maybe one vest out of one thousand that is almost as good as Interceptor. Why don't you join the ARMY if you're are so interested in the matter, oh yeah that's right that would make you all see the truth and we wouln't want that now would we. Misinformed pussies, typical of this new anti-war generation.

Posted by: Trey D. at May 20, 2007 10:03 PM

Now, I get your idea here but these companies have fact checkers and depend on their reputations. I guess in your eyes being broadcast on television makes former navy seals, former marine sargeants, and news journalists automatically liars? Fine I guess that is you showing your right to an opinion, but you haven't answered my question about where you got weight information for these systems. I asked more than once "where did you come up with those number." I told you where I got mine where did you get yours?

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:44 PM

You can't always get what you want. I do not know the weight of their armor. However, it is light enough for elite forces to use it. The weight is acceptable, and the vest is supposedly good at distributing weight and FLEXIBLE. That is the KEY!

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:39 PM

1, it is a free country, you can believe whatever you wish about Dragon Skin. When you start believing the boob tube you are in serious trouble. I have provided plenty of questions that have to be answered. If you chose to ignore them then that is on you. If you do not verify everything about the product that this company puts out, with all the credibility problems then you are naive. If you believe that NBC really cares about the troops then you are sadly mistaken. If you want to believe in fairy tales be my guest. These types of tests are easily rigged to make the outcome whatever you wish. It comes down to one thing. Does dragon skin weigh the same or less per square foot than Interceptor? If not then the rest of it is irrelavent. Pinnacle claimed they were better than Interceptor. Now they have to prove it. Make Dragon skin at the same weight and then show us the performance. There is no other answer. You should be demanding that Pinnacle belly up to the bar an compare apples to apples. Weight for weight, otherwise they are liars.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:30 PM

I have looked at dragon skin's website for a year or more now and I don't think it said NIJ certified till now. I think before it said something like it passed independant tests that were even more stringent than NIJ compliant. They have their own ballistic charts. They say level I II or III and then if if has passed an NIJ test it says NIJ I NIJ IIIa or whatever. I don't think you are going to get very far with that law suit. It lists it as level III then you look at their pinnacle ballistic chart and see what that means. Their website says "see our ballistic charts to see what rifle threats it will defeat." Claiming that it can defeat NIJ level threats also isn't saying it is NIJ certified. But then they haven't failed an NIJ test yet have they and there is only level IV to go.

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:30 PM

William, today we clearly witnessed that Dragon Skin offers superior protection, flexibility, and maximal area coverage as opposed to Interceptor. Furthermore, the army laid off several experienced, but dragon skin-supporting people. They were not allowed to attend the tests.

The army claims that dragon skin could not withstand 1 or 2 weak bullets in this video. Then, the testers shoot dragon skin with 3 rounds that are much more powerful than what the army claims dragon skin fails to protect.

This is serious business. Clearly, the Army has lied time and time again, and you are in a state of denial. Dragon Skin is superior. Elite troops wear it, generals wear it,and the man who designed interceptor admits that dragon skin is superior. Also, an ex-4 star general says dragon skin is superior. These tests we saw today proves them correct, and you and the army wrong.

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:17 PM

don't worry the authorities have been contacted about these issues. The issues are being raised by people who actually bought Dragon Skin and will have standing in the courts. I do not since I do not own any DS.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:16 PM

txen, the problem with the NIJ III vest is that they have been telling people and marking the vest as NIJ certified for years and only got the NIJ III certification in Dec 06. This is like saying your snake oil is FDA approved when it is not. This is criminal behavior not marketing. Murry has a credibility problem of a huge magnitude. He lists himself as a noted author and inventor in the ballistics field. But no one can produce a book he has authored. I want the troops protected with the best america can produce, but I don't like what I see when it comes to the tactics this company employs.

Posted by: William at May 20, 2007 09:13 PM

If you do find fictitious things on pinnacles advertisements couldn't you sue them for false advertising? How come when you think someone is accusing an army offiical of impropriety/conflict of interest you tell everyone to talk to the FBI but when you refer to Pinnacle's website you immdiately call it ficticious without going to the authorities yourself? I mean that general brown said dragon skin failed at ambient temperature and today NBC showed it beat interceptor at more than one bullet type at ambient temperature so if it failed how could interceptor not fail if it stopped more shots than IBA did?

Posted by: txzen at May 20, 2007 09:11 PM

There are backface deformation listed, as well as penetration or not, and other stats. The full test is available for viewing on nbc's Dateline website.

looks like your time has run out

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:06 PM

William, take some time to go to NBC.com and go to dateline. they uploaded 2 clips from their show just a few hours ago. dragon skin exceeded interceptor by huge margins

Posted by: 1 at May 20, 2007 09:04 PM

Please show me the stats you see. You have to take the whole vest weight and divide by coverage. I would love to get some independent stats for dragon skin and for interceptor. Interceptor's website doesn't have easy to find weights and dragon skins