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Posted by: 2e2ff at June 2, 2008 09:40 PM

Regarding Somalia

Bush Sr sent us in to protect food distributors

CLINTON changed the mission from humanitarian to hunting down the warlords who were attacking the UN and humanitarian personnel who where distributing the food.

CLINTON bagged ass and left when the media showed pictures of our dead troopers being dragged thought the streets. Our men wanted to fight.

OSAMA BIN LADEN saw this. And decided that, rightfully, the US (under the Dems) were a paper tiger with no guts or will for the fight.

These FACTS are concealed in history books.

Posted by: LibLoather at October 10, 2007 10:58 AM

Some interesting comments here, though it seems the word 'chemical' is a trigger for some folks.

The DETA causes the explosive to burn rather than exploding, and neutralises it in seconds. The resulting debris may not be too environmentally friendly, but it's a great deal better than a live minefield.

Posted by: David Hambling at February 9, 2007 10:26 AM

DETA is a chemical in liquid form, read the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). The article says it neutralizes the explosive not detonates it. How long does it take? Hours, days or weeks?

Can't they use the darts without the chemical? Criticizing a bad idea does not make one a liberal or un-American.

Posted by: kyliniemi at February 6, 2007 08:08 PM

DETA, really isnt a chemical, its an explosive normally used in sheet form. Yes it is a chemical explosive but so is EVERY other explosive. C-4 for example is made out of RDX and a plasticizer with a mix of 91% and 9% respectively. So yes everyhting is a "chemical" but military standards for explosives state that they must be minimally toxic. You dont want your average engineer running around with c-4 in his pocket being exposed to some chemical that is going to rot his leg off. As long as you dont eat it, you are good to go.

Posted by: G Hayes at February 6, 2007 11:02 AM

First of all, Bush Sr. DID NOT SEND US TO SOMALIA! Clinton and his Commi Dictator wife sent us to Somalia! First Clinton sent us to Haiti and Port-au-Prince, then we were sent to Somalia. I know, I WAS THERE!

Posted by: Robert at February 4, 2007 11:11 AM

ChrisB--

George H.W. Bush put us INTO Somalia, in late 1992, during his Lame Duck period. Do your homework.

Clinton brought the troops OUT of Somalia.

To many people are determined to believe that was Clinton who put the Troops into Somalia-- Folks HATE him for it, erroneously. It was a time-bomb left by Bush 41 for the Clinton administration. Something that demanded he deal with IMMEDIATELY. THAT is what happened. READ, man.

--mf

Posted by: Monkeyfister at January 31, 2007 02:30 PM

I had to respond. An earlier post said we were in Somalia because of the media. Not 100% accurate. WE were there because of that greasy rat bastar% Bill Clinton and his co-president Hillary's using the military as an experimental agent of social change in another country spurred on by lopsided reporting by the media. pretty much the same reason we didn't finish the job that Preident Bush's father started. There was such a mental disconnect between how war is waged with today's technology versus how war actually looks after the precision guided weapons and the multiple MLRS volleys that impacted the so called "highway of death" that when the media showed it everyone just said F### it, we gotta stop this. So we did, rather than keeping the momentum going and finishing the job. Now we are trying to finish the job in a half assed way.
As for the darts, my favorite weapon system that never got fielded was called THOR, after the god of thunder in Norse mythology. The idea was great, but technology at the time was lacking. But not now. 4 or 5 satellites in geosynchronous orbit for communications. One or more (the more the merrier)sats carrying the payload that consisted of very long, thin and HEAVY darts with movable fins and guidance that were in a polar orbit. The idea was that even with only one payload sat, eventually it would "see" the entire earth's surface. When a target needed to be eliminated, the sat would fire a rocket to take itself out of orbit. When it started to fall, the darts would be released, eventually guiding themselves (GPS wasn't invented yet) to the selected target. The more sats in polar orbit, the less the response time. Terminal velocity at time of impact would be on the order of 17,000 mph or more. The kinetic energy alone would destroy anything. Delay some darts and the repeated hammering could take out bunkers. No left over explosives, there are none involved. If by some freak chance someone finds one buried in the ground after an attack, all he's gonna do is stub his toe on it. But he'd have to dig a DEEP hole to find it. The technology is here now for it to be a success, and it fits in nicely with St. Reagan's Star Wars vision. Very Nice!

Posted by: Chris B at January 29, 2007 09:00 PM

Guys- "This is not a poison gas weapon the chemicial is not released until the darts are well underground(undersea), the Chemicial reacts with nitrates like in plastic explosives, & SIMEX. It makes then chance into amides, and cease to be explosive. Any civilians in the area of the darts would be in greater danger of stepping on one of their own mines. the DETA over a few weeks naturally decomposes int ammonia and other non-toxic stuff. it is non carcogenic. True if you get a big dose, hot, it would be bad, so would a lot of things used in the USA every day.
"Maybe it would just be better for us to advoid the entire area, and leave the mines for the kids playing on the beach to step on by accident."

Posted by: Robert Jewett SSG Retired at January 29, 2007 05:51 PM

OK, I'm beating a dead horse here, but , yes get the "media" out. Just look at all the videos being posted from the combat zone in the Shock and Awe site. The soldiers are much better "reporters" than ANY "official" media mad I've ever seen. The videos are raw, uncensored, and in many cases, un-edited. This makes it the REAL DEAL! A friend and co-crewman on my tank during Desert Storm did the same thing. Held a camera in one hand, and a CARBINE in the other! We documented just about EVERYTNING we did, with 2 cameras mounted on the tank, one inside behind the gunner with a wide angle lens, the other tied into the main gun targeting electronics. We took over 800 hours of video...with about 700 hours of it being mundane crap cruising on patrol. The key was, we kept the cameras rolling as much as possible, because you never knew when you would be engaged by the enemy. Of course we weren't the first ones to do this, but we consider ourselves among the "pioneers" of the SOLDIER JOURNALIST. I use that term, because we were SOIDIERS first, historians and journalists second. And, like the guys today, nothing was off limits. We got the enemy getting blown to hell, and ourselves as well. Captured Iraquis as well as bloodied casualties and body bags of ours. All was seen and recorded. So , YES! get the media out! If you want the reas stories, ask the guys getting lead thrown their way, and throwing it back!!!!!

Posted by: James Mata at January 28, 2007 08:16 PM

Hey, kyliniemi !!! You better get your head out of the sand and pay attention! Doe's this article say anything about "Chemicals of mass destruction"? These are obviously designed to detonate the mine,next time real the whole article. Or admit that you are a liberal. In that case, you are not smart enough to read the whole thing!

Posted by: A Real Patriot at January 28, 2007 07:47 PM

Bob S is so right! Get the news media out of there. They got us into Somalia, remember.

Posted by: Dudley at January 27, 2007 11:28 PM

I spent a total of 31 months in Viet Nam in 2 short tours and one 13 month tour. I was a Heavy Equipment Operator in the Navy Seabees. I was there thru the TET Offensive. I saw alot and heard about things that happened over there. I saw a lot of heroism but I heard a lot of negatism. The same thing is happening right now in Iraq On a much bigger scale. The in country media is trying to out do each other with sensationalism even if they have to help create it. Nothing good because good don't sell. I want to hear about the hero's and they are all hero's in my book. I want to hear about enemy body count. I am happy we are not hearing much about Afganistan that means nothing there is interesting to the reporters to make a name for themselves. Get the media back in a room and give them a report once a day or week and let our men and women fight this like they were trained to do not like the newsman want them to.

Posted by: Ron Wheeler EOC/Ret. at January 27, 2007 11:55 AM

Munitions with chemicals? Any one in the military who would launch it and the one's who ordered it would be facing a war crimes tribunal. Get real.

Posted by: kyliniemi at January 27, 2007 11:32 AM

GET THE NEWS MEDIA out and let the soldiers do what they have been trained to do... the Media is the cause of so many mistakes being made and even coaxed upon our Soldiers, the Media was our worst enemy in Vietnam and they are the same here, always showing the worst and never the good stroies and the Victories, there fore the enemy is the Media... BACK OFF, unless youre ready to become a Soldier and actually fight for your rights and freedoms which we all doubt..

Posted by: robertleehorton at January 27, 2007 08:12 AM

this is obviously an anti personnel weapon. the grouping wouldnt work from that altitude. also, DETA

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterature/dh_03bf/ 09002f13803bfdbc.pdf?filepath=amines/pdfs/noreg/108-01370.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

is a skin irritant. is this supposed to help our guys in a surf zone? I think it makes them impossible to remove and that causes a great health hazard even after the fight.

Posted by: RexIrae at January 27, 2007 04:45 AM

I served during Vietnam and went to Korea right after the Pueblo was captured. This war (Iraq) is a polished war. First of all, the media needs to be removed and then we need to let out men and women take over the place. In other words, kick ass and take names later

Posted by: Bob S. at January 26, 2007 10:26 PM

I read these posts and just go back to the hidden Marine infantryman that lurks inside me. I teach HS now in Brooklyn NY. I have some pics of me and my buddies carrying fellow Marine during the beurut conflict hanging on my cork board above my desk. I look so young that I got used to telling the students that I knew the guys in the pictures. I never point to me. There must be so many people like me. We are producing more now with this conflict. I wish we could all get together in a major sports arena and party. No civilians allowed. If you want to share a story with a vet so be it. If not, talk about family, kids, new life. We need to unite. No politicians unless they served in a conflict. I would even give respect to the politicians that were held in the rear. The guilt of not being able to go foward of the FEBA and serve under fire. They asked to serve but got screwed. Maybe for the better in my mind. They are actually lucky. When I was in Beirut, I spoke to a sucking chest wound LT who was a former Army Ranger turned Marine officer. He died in 15 minutes after we flew him out. Sometimes, he talks to me in dreams. I got over the fear of waking up suddenly and feeling his presence. No more fear. We will join him soon. I just want to live for my children and leave them when I have to with all of my wisdom. They will carry on.

Posted by: Mike at January 26, 2007 09:00 PM

Been trough alot,but feel sorry for our boys and girls in the filed.
All I can ask is anyone remember the nutron bomb?
Get our troops put and drop that sucker!
End of it ALL!!!

Posted by: chris at January 26, 2007 08:01 PM

I wonder if the flechett rounds that we use in 105's is close to the same thing as the darts? If they worked in water they would probably be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Posted by: Tom at January 26, 2007 07:24 PM

As a Vietnam Combat Veteran of 68 and 69 with the Americal Division of the 11th Brigade known as the Jungle Warriors, I do have a statement. let me add Im also a Company Commander of one of the COMBAT INFANTRYMENS ASSOCIATION" A11KS and the National Commander of the U.S. National Patrol of the 2nd Responder Volunteers for Security Enforcement as well as a AMBASSADOR of the U.S. Army FTS Program out of the Pentagon, and its a very Honorable Program to be a part of to Honor all the VETERANS and Acitve Duty Army soldiers and their Spouses and Parents as well as Employers as well, I just want to say, I do not like the war the way it is going, BUT remember soldiers, we had to put up with alot of WANNABEES while in Vietnam and came back home to the real PUKES of america, the hippies and draft dodgers( some are congressmen and senators) but still we held our head high because they DID NOT KNOW WHAT WE HAD BEEN THROUGH, which added to our allready PTSD, so lets remember what we had to endure and everyone who had a opinion of how we should have fought the war, but they did not know one dam thing about it only we did and were called the Baby killers and everything else, so these people in **congress and the SENATE** who have not been in the service or served their country... Pleaase for the sloldiers sake DO NOT BETRAY Them like we were, you all know who is running for President, **I have recently been asked to help in the campaingn of one of the Senators who is running, and I must say, I like the guy but he would not make a President he would however be beter than Bill Clinton the guy we had *IMPEACHED* and he would be far better than the JANE FONDAs friend Hillary Clinton who is out to finish off the job her impeached husband started and that was selling us out to the chinesse, YES it is now proven on CNN AND FOX that Al Gore and so called clinton a coward by the way, and hand carried our Technology to the Chinesse before the end of Clintons office, so now that it is out in the open look at what Hillary is saying allready, that her husband would make a perfect Ambassador, well that is because her hidden agenda is to finish off America and make it an open country to the chinnesse and finish off the deal her husband made with the chinesse, as was reported on the Ntional news last month, DONT BE FOOLED she is not for the TROOPS or the Military, its clintons fault Binladden got this far, oh yes it is and the truth is out there, and Obama had never served in the service and he wants to open our borders to all who want in, he knows nothing about the life of a true soldier who is by the way the **only ones who deserve** the full rights of freedoms and they dont get it, hell they get prosecuted if they happen to kill the wrong enemy in Iraq, but the enemy can CUT OFF OUR HEADS and show it on TV but let one of our soldiers act as we did in Combat situations and by accident kill someone who is in fornt of a enemy soldier looking like a civilian, then he gets charged and sent to prison, Certain Democrats are behind this and we have the proff, the CBS and NBC supports the democrats 110% so dont be fooled this is why you do not see what the soldiers are mad about not being shown on TV, and the TV channels in America NBC CBS AND ABC want you all to see it they-- are doing them just like they did to us vietanm vets, please look at the whole picutre, but if we are going to do this of which we must do to get to IRAN who by the way if you have forgot has called for the death of any American and **NOW HAS its TROOPS in America** we just busted a cell of HEZBOLAH in South Carolina, they are also in Missouri, California, and 8 other States ready to stat killing all of you in the Highways with road side bombs, house to house as well as in your back yards, watch the news this is where you will see the truth, so what do we need to do, **STOP ELECTING THESE STUPID BUMS do not elect Hillary who is out to finish selling us out and wants to make her IMPEACHEd LYING** husband who taught all the school kids to lie about anything and to have sex I know I give speeches every year to colleges and high schools they all tell me how much they really do hate bill clinton and they feel he is a traitor in their own words, well they are right he is a traitor and does not deserve to ever be in charge of anything that is of American Interest, so **lets do this right and go over their and do it now**, we have the fire power get er done, and come home, we could do it in two weeks, just like in Vietnam we could have won that war in 2 wqeeks if they had not tied our hands behind our backs and let so many die, well lets not let this continue, lets show them what america is all about, to hell with the coward Senators and Copngressmen and women Democrats as well as some of the Republicans who never served their country and knows nothing about what its like to defend out country, the only thing more than 90 percent of them know is how to keep getting elected so they can make laws and coward behind the constiguents they have by their continued lies, the very FEW congressmen and Senators I know for a fact would be wonderfull presidents and would let us win the war's we go into they need your support and we must start now letting them know we support them and are over 7,000,000, mIllion strong, this I hear from the thousands of Soldiers I speak to every day on Radio, in the Streets at Military Bases, and by computer and over 900,000 Newsletters we send out every month form the National Organizations Im over so can we count you in to answer the Militarys call if so contact me and I will feel you in on the ones I personally know not to support for President or any other office, that is if you want to know... SO MANY OF YOU SAY YOU SUPPORT THE SOLDIERS, well they cant tell unless you stand up for them, against the News channels of CBS AND NBC AND ABC as well as at the voting box, Friends we must act now, I do meet with these brave men and women everyday and they ask me to get the word out to all of you of HOW THEY FEEL because their real stroies are not being told on the regular TV channels, will you now take a Stand for them and with me and overion others who are now doing what we must do to get the soliders what they need right now today not next year, the democarts say they have a plan, well its not the plan the soldiers want, after all they are the ones fighting and dyiing so lets be their voice here in America and also lets close the damn borders of Mexico right now, our women and children are being raped and murdered along the border line, its growing and coming to your home town soon they are like roaches gaining ground everyday and if not stopped by us the real americans it will be to late by hte time htey do get it closed... how many and more will have to suffer at the hands of illegals, Im all for anyone who comes here legally but not for anyone here illegal, thanks for the opportunity to tell you what the active duty soldiers are telling me and asking of me...

Posted by: robertleehorton at January 26, 2007 07:15 PM

I see some pea brains with no clue as to the facts do not think our war in Iraq is correct.

Well, you clueless clod, this Agnostic Atheist (to show I am no neo-con) vet who served in the 101st) submits anyone who does not know our actions in Iraq are fully justified and a necessary part of our war on terror is EITHER ignorant of PROVEN facts OR they are just TOO STUPID to understand the facts.

Posted by: Neil C. Reinharddt at January 26, 2007 07:03 PM

I love the military, I love the technology. But F*@ck the Iraq war, just nuke the damn bastards so we can go home and forget this BS we call our President!

Posted by: Carlos at January 26, 2007 05:31 PM

Few observations

1. Call 'em cowards if you want but those cowards have kept us at bay for almost 4 years.

2. We can't secure our own border with the resouces we have in the US. So forget about securing theirs with the limited resources we have in Iraq.

3. Sure we could drop a lot of big bombs. I'm never against that if it get us closer to our objective. Since our objective is the liberation of the Iraqis (Bush's words, Bush's plan, I'm backing him the best I can) the B52s can not bring us closer to our objective. Unless Bush's plan was to liberate them from their earthly bodies. lol. If that's the case put 'em in the air.

4. The chemical dart. I like new tech as much as the next techie and I love military hardware. But I must point out that our government has never been forthright about the hazards. How many years did it take them to acknowledge the Agent Orange issues. How about gulf war issues, and depleated urainium? I don't think demanding to know effects of chems is unreasonable knowing their ability to deny those who served a little respect. But with that aside, I like the weapon.

5. Mother may I shoot is BS regardless of the campaign. But that's a problem with respects to the mission. In regular war those contraints are not a rigously applied. However you see them used more in policing actions that are mis-titled as a war. I don't think Iraq has been a war in years, it's been a protracted policing mission with some misguided counterinsurgency effort. Our military never does well when they have to be cops. Our military does great when we kill and destroy to take land, we have always done well at that, even if we have to do it twice because we don't have enough troops to hold. That's what we do.

I've been a supporter of sending an additional 200,000 troops. The "go big" plan as the Pentagon is calling it. I'm starting to think it's too big and too costly for Bush and America to sign-up. It may require a draft, which I'm not for because it will dilute the quality of our ranks, and it would require a war tax to pay for it. Bush doesn't want that.

If this war is so important that our very existence could be riding on it, why would we send a mere 21,000 more troops to respond to a threat so large? Shouldn't the response be equal or greater than the threat?

I was taught to never under-estimate your enemy. What the hell happened with that?

I was taught to deny the enemy his supplies.
In this case we let them have access to all of Iraq's conventional weapons depots, by failing to secure them at the start of the war.

I'm a fan of Rummy but he really has me scratching my head saying WTF on this one.

One of the greatest sayings I learned in the Marines was Prior Planning Prevents Piss-poor Performance. I guess no one got the word.

Oh yeah, this thread is about the darts!!
I like it. But I wonder how effective it can be. Sure it could be good when you know where the mines are, but would you use it as a sort of recon by fire when searching for mines? I wonder how much one round would cost and are the Seabees just as effective for less the price.

Posted by: TrickyVic at January 26, 2007 04:53 PM

Again, you need to read the article. The weapons are used to clear 60 feet of beach from mines. which is why the darts go through water and sand. They not intended to be used on people nor do the chemicals have any use on people. Although I'm sure any people on the beach would be in trouble with the density of the darts, but the danger would be from the darts, rather than the chemicals.

Posted by: Rich at January 26, 2007 04:31 PM

'Kill them all and let God sort them out' if we don't do it to them they will certainly do it to us. They have professed this to us for many years. Pull the troops back 1 mile and carpet bomb them. They have no compulsion what so ever for the 'innocents' when they deal with the United States. I was in Viet Nam and had to put up with 'mother may I shoot?' rules of engagment.

Posted by: Barry at January 26, 2007 03:54 PM

Those of us who were around during WWII know that the war was won by cutting the supply lines of both the Japanese and the Germans. Evidently the Iraq situation is out of hand because supplies are getting throughTake away their ammo and foodsupply lines and things will come to a standstill

Posted by: Fran Merenda at January 26, 2007 03:52 PM

Where is Harry Truman type Goverment when we need it. If we would use the the big boy just once I bet all the so called Terrist would give up if all their country was unlivable for 50 years.

Posted by: Thompson at January 26, 2007 03:45 PM

I WAS IN VIETNAM 67 68 DURING TET AND AT KHESANH. WE NEED TO STOP FOOLING AROUND WITH THOSE PEOPLE AND USE OUR B52'S AND START A SERIES OF CARPET BOMBING. THEY HAVE NO REGARD FOR LIFE, THEY KILL THERE OWN PEOPLE SO LETS HELP THEM OUT AND BOMB THE HELL OUT OF THEM

Posted by: TONY CUCCARO at January 26, 2007 03:33 PM

Being a descendant of Huguenots and still pissed with Louis Quatorze, the "Kill'em all, Let God sort em out" doesn't sound good whatever religion is involved. It does matter who we kill and how. this weapon sounds good, but i'd like to know how the chemical works, residuals and all that enviro stuff that so "gores" the killer-effete

Posted by: bujinin at January 26, 2007 03:09 PM

I am more concerned with the ideology behind the various sects of Islam and why They (terrorist
factions) call the Western influences 'infidels'. They
seem to destroy Their own people (who believe in
the Koran) with equal zeal. Is it Their to DICTATE
to all denizens of Their 'Holy Land' as to the style
and method of living? Isn't that Totalitarianism or
Tyrrany in itself? Are They becoming their own despised enemy? Shouldn't They declare 'Jihad' upon
themselves? Incidentally, their are many nations with
self-deterministic cultures which are not as American
democracies. Some of these type Nations are out
of the 'Western' world. Should the 'Jihadist' take
they self-righteous combat against civilian targets
there as well? It would be the Cowardly thing to do!

Posted by: Paul Aguilar at January 26, 2007 02:56 PM

I agree with most of the posts on this subject. Whatever it takes. I enjoy as much as the next guy watching videos of our men and women kicking butt. However I think it is time to pull the Cameras, and reporters out and get the job done BY ANY MEANS!! As my old Odnance handeling officer use to say: "Kill em all and let God sort em out!!"

Posted by: L. Myers (A02) at January 26, 2007 02:14 PM

I was in Veitnam, i think we should put a glass dome over the Iraq, Iran borders that way no more killings. Take the gloves off is all im saying

Posted by: Larry Sowder at January 26, 2007 01:56 PM

Just use anything that will get rid of the enemy and bring our boys home.
We don't need to mess around with these guys as if they are not fighting their not eating..
Go back to the old tried and true method. I do mean don't ever put our men in harms way.
If darts work go for it. Bouncing betty's, the fifty thousands pounders.
Let's play for keeps. We're not over their for our health..

Posted by: D. Lovelace at January 26, 2007 01:54 PM

Unfortunately, the negative feelings toward "Western Civilization" go back much further than 90 years. It seems the Ottoman Empire had the same agenda. Times and tactics have changed, but not the end goal.

Posted by: Paul McSweeney at January 26, 2007 01:26 PM

The US is only 231 years old so 1,000 years of hate for us is a bit overstated. I would concede about 90 years, since the discovery of the giant oil fields and subsequent American influx.

Posted by: tshaw at January 26, 2007 01:05 PM

Hey Guys, I have a radical idea for fighting this unconventional 'war'. Lets seal the borders with the other countries, thereby isolating Iraq (Afganistan, Iran, Washington DC, etc) from getting aid or support from them. Form a cordon 0.5 mile in from said borders, NO ONE IN, NO ONE OUT. Pull all of our troops into said 'safe' areas, and let the indigents have at it. Last person standing forms the new government. If you attempt to leave or enter, you are turned back once, if you try again, you are simply killed on the spot. If you approach to within 3000 feet of a safe area more than once, you get a welcoming gift from a barrett .50 or a mannlicher 6.8. A few times of this under a very tight air cover, guess what, they quit trying and dying and learn to get along...just my two cents worth.

Posted by: Forge365 at January 26, 2007 01:05 PM

The terrorist have home field advantage. Americans need to wake up, we have entered a football game wearing hockey skates, if we are not willing to play by the rules of the game we need to get off of the field. Our rules of engagement are nothing short of sending in Willy Shoemaker (Jockey) to take out Michael Jordan on the basketball court, sure it will sell tickets but strategically not so smart. It took 2 atomic bombs to get Japan to surrender and they only hated us for 5 years prior to the bombing. the muslim world has hated us for a thousand years, do the math.

Posted by: charles marion at January 26, 2007 12:33 PM

I think any weapon that gives us the upper hand is great but let us not forget Vietnam and agent orange. A chemical weapon that did more harm to our own troops then good. So ok chemicals may be the way to go but lets be ever mindful that our troops are on the battlefield also. The all they come first above all else

Posted by: Ed Freeman at January 26, 2007 12:22 PM

Yes chemical weapons are illegal, especially in fabric softeners:

Ethyleneamine-based fabric softeners are commonly added to textile materials to make them less harsh, "softer" or more pleasing to the touch. Softeners also act as antistatic and antisoiling agents, and impart fluffiness. Softeners are added to the home washing machine during a rinse cycle or as part of a detergent/softener combination product, or to the clothes dryer. Softening agents based on Diethylenetriamine (DETA) and Triethylenetetramine (TETA) are also used in industrial textile processing operations. The most common ethyleneamine-based fabric softeners are bis-amidoamines or imidazolines made from DETA and fatty acids. AEEA, DETA and TETA
Isopropanolamine Mixture is used in hand cleaner formulations.

courtesy of a DETA manufacturer

Posted by: Greg at January 26, 2007 12:07 PM

I wonder if everyone read the same article. I also wonder if anyone tried to understand it, without extraneous bias. By the way, you can die of exposure to water.

The technology is good, the direction is sound, the application is not refined, but the effectiveness for the intended use of clearing mines is a good idea.

Posted by: Greg at January 26, 2007 12:04 PM

Hey, whatever it takes to neutralize the bad guys. They were not educated nor do they care about the Geneva convention. "Illegal chemicals." Isn't terrorism and murder illegal. Who cares if there's chemicals. Gun powder is a chemical.....

Posted by: TAB at January 26, 2007 11:48 AM

the idea that these would be used as anti-personel bombs is ludicrous....

you have to find the enemy first. retards. and then the intel you get is usually wrong, so they aren't where you thought they were, and if they are, tiny darts aren't going to pierce through the bunkers and caves they're living in.

as for the chemical, why would human beings be hanging around a mind field where these will be dropped anyway? the chemical is nothing long lasting, anyway...

Posted by: Ben at January 26, 2007 11:42 AM

Terrorists plant IEDs and lie in wait to attack the survivors because they are too cowardly to fight face to face. Whether its American or Iraqi troops they oppose, they just cannot muster the courage to act like real men, thus IEDs were born.

Did I hear someone sniveling about a highly alkaline in H2O solution? Suspected Immunotoxicant? So what? The bottom line is that such weapons were developed as countermeasures to IEDs.

Its a simple concept: better to cause death and injury to cowards who plant IEDs than allow them to hurt the good guys.

When was the last time you heard of a terrorist bomb, IED or suicide bomber using a device designed to minimize collateral damage?

Posted by: Brad Fletcher at January 26, 2007 11:39 AM

Hey guys, it's WAR! Breaking things and killing enemies. If someone is ambitios/foolish enough to get themselves on the receiving end of these things, why are we worrying about their "environment"?
Of course, I prefer the carpet bombing option. We've got 90+ operational B-52s...let's use 'em!

Posted by: VFVet at January 26, 2007 11:29 AM

How can this possibly be more useful than explosives on the battlefield.

How on earth are the chemicals help[ful in the destruction of mines?

Besides, aren't chemical weapons illegal?

Posted by: Austin at January 26, 2007 11:22 AM

RE - the high altitude release is so that the darts assume a stable attitude before they hit, to ensure they come in vertical. The could cluster tighter, but I believe this is intended to be optimal for the number of darts. it's still a very small area and you would need 10+ bombs to clear a reasonable path from sea to shore.

I'll be looking at more radical clearance technology soon.

Posted by: David hambling at January 24, 2007 12:52 PM

This thing is what nightmares are made of!... I like it and I think it could come in pretty no matter where or how we use it.

Posted by: Davis, A at January 24, 2007 10:53 AM

I can just imagine the stink raised when some civilians, or even the enemy with a camcorder, get hit with some of these things.

"US INDISCRIMENANTLY INJECTING CIVILIANS WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS!" "POISON CLUSTER BOMBs USED AGAINST INSURGENTS"

Cue the "well, its not a chemical weapon per se..." discussion.

Posted by: mrnitropb at January 23, 2007 04:35 PM

Oh, christ....read the NewScientistTech article, then look up DETA on Wiki, and on scorecard.org (pollutant scorecard)

+ highly alkaline in H2O solution
+ used by the MINING industry (we all know how much they love people and the environment...just look at Montana and Idaho) as a solvent for sulfur
+ Suspected Immunotoxicant, respiratory toxicant, and skin or sense organ toxicant
+ "more hazardous than most chemicals on a 1-3 ranking system" (scorecard.org)

This will be like a faulty cluster bomb when dropped! long-term human and environmental impact, possibly another Agent Orange-type situation if it's as bad as it seems it could be, with contamination of food,water, grievous injury to civilians and livestock....I hope they don't go through with this...the current systems (thermobaric weapons, line charges -- see Israel's hardware showcased in the Summer War) are an effective enough alternative to large-scale environmental damage and human loss.

Posted by: JSanna at January 23, 2007 01:46 PM

I read in the early days of WW one the guys on the ground were afraid of this mythical weapon that would be droped from the new flyig machines. It would be thousands of darts that would hit a tommy on the top of his head and pin his feet to the ground. Guess old time fears are real now?

Posted by: davids at January 23, 2007 01:45 PM

David - Do you know why the darts are released at such a high altitude? 60 feet is a pretty tight effect radius from 1000 feet, but why not try for something even tighter by releasing them at a lower altitude?

It definitely looks pretty cool.

Posted by: Robot.Economist at January 23, 2007 01:05 PM

Dammm .50 cal dart? 60' circumference? Mine clearance so I suspect that must be a very very tight 60' pattern to be effective?

Talk about Flechets on Steroids. Be on hell of a anti personel munition if it was cut loose at a higher altitude spreading the pattern enlarging the circumference area.

Posted by: C-Low at January 23, 2007 12:50 PM