In fact, we take the risk on the island for what, mesos, what the plan is, is not happy? Of course, you can buy cheap mesos in my game, not blindly upgrading; if training wash your face as its own estimates BOSS can see a mirror.

Posted by: mesos at August 9, 2008 01:42 AM

And then click the warehouse to the elderly, he will give you a bear kill “tooth dental knife” (now seems all levels can carry weapons) so you put on it to “gear teeth knife” after the attacks of a very High upgrade, upgrade it easier and more! (Like the goddess role can not be used) of course definitely need Metin2 money!

Posted by: Metin2 money! at August 9, 2008 01:40 AM

SMUGGLER and CONTRABANDISTA see the words on the fleet of attack it, get most of gunpowder, shipbuilding would use the gun to the rotation of such arms supplies. In the New World, Many settlers are directed at Pirates of the Burning Sea Gold to; you should also rob the fans, like the Nuggets can be there to European businessmen in exchange for the corresponding material.

Posted by: Pirates of the Burning Sea Gold at August 9, 2008 01:39 AM

On the first point, the metallurgical stone! It also belongs to the category of stone, (and stones, to use the same), consumables, can be used only once!More importantly, it is to 30 points (equivalent to 30 yuan RMB) a, you also can be used to purchase Xiah Gold,And the stones were put forward what 1-2 (Anyway, I was raised to 47 pieces by the explosion goods, but fortunately left hand), only two Whitehead!

Posted by: Xiah Gold at August 9, 2008 01:38 AM

nice to meet you

Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 16, 2008 04:47 AM

I smell some arrogance (or stupidity) in the way US handles these kinds of emergent threats. I thought a commandment of war was to expect the unexpected? And it's a war for clying out loud.

Cheating, playing facades, doing proxy warfare and hitting anything vurnerable has allways been the way (that old chinese guy had a book on it). Why is everybody debating wheter or not Iran is suppllying weapons? Handle it! It wont be aliens or goblins that make them.

Posted by: Macaca at February 18, 2007 10:42 AM

So you take a Desert Eagle with the .50 caliber barrel and mag and load it with Raven ammo.

:)

Posted by: ACGandolf at February 14, 2007 10:21 AM

The shaped charges are just part of the story.

The mortar shells dated manufacture after the US invasion of Iraq.

The Iranian agents caught in Iraq (Quads force the Iranian Special Forces).

The missiles ammunition RPG's possible recent advanced SA-18's use and older versions MANPADS.

The .50 cal sniper rifles Iran bought that then somehow ended up in Iraq (we just busted a stash of over a hundred).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml

And if you read the report it says that the shaped charges were not some Bubba job but manufactured assembly line type with processed metals. If they were scrapping these things out in the basement their would be no two the same. Their would be regional differences in shape, materials, craftsmanship, would all vary widely. That is not what we are seeing that is difference.

Of course it sounds like the shaped charges don't have serial numbers on them so even if you can prove assembly line manufacture over Bubba's basement you cannot prove Iranian manufacture. That is why the Mortar, .50 cal Snipers, Ammo, Rifles, Manpads varying designation, Quads captures, shipments crossing border captures, all of this taken together some of it pointing directly at the Iranian's specifically is how A leads to Z. Their is no such thing as Irrefutable evidence but at some point you gotta take in the combined picture.

Posted by: C-Low at February 14, 2007 09:49 AM

B. Skinner - Didn't see the Military Channel show, but I had a phsyics professor who was know to dabble in IED concepts for the Army.

He demonstrated a miniature EFP for us once using 1.5" steel pipe and a copper disc molded on a golfball. It shot the slug 50+ feet and penetrated all the way though a cider block.

He's still free (last time I checked), so fortunately the DoJ shouldn't be busting down your door anytime soon.

Posted by: Robot.Economist at February 14, 2007 09:10 AM

Quick clarification...I didn't think this knowledge was so widely held...thats the reason for the "we're screwed" comment...

Posted by: Solomon at February 14, 2007 02:11 AM

wow, i thought i was ahead of the curve because of proficiency with firearms and the ability to make a nice napalm ied...you guys take it to a new level...we are screwed....

Posted by: Solomon at February 14, 2007 12:23 AM

Good Evening zak822,

I can do better. How to make a home made EFP as well as packed explosive devices was shown on the Military Channel a few weeks ago. The program is called Weaponogly, the one with the ex Seal.

Since this information was put out in the public domain I will answer your question zak822.

But for all who missed the program, all you need to do is go to home Depot buy( please don't steal the material, that's so sixtyish) about a 6" Lgn. of PVC pipe, white or black it don't matter an end cap and about an 8"x8" piece of copper. Bend the cooper into a cone about 3/4" deep, cut coperinto a circle that will fit inside the PVC pipe. Drill a hole into the end cap for a deninator and glue the end cap to one end of pipe.

Fill pipe with explosive of choice. Insert cooper plate into open end of pipe and pack into explosives run some silcone around the edge of the cooper, insert blasting cap into hole in end cap and you have yourself one each terrorists special EFP. Total cost less explosives about $10.00.

The above statement no doubt violates serveral parts of the "Patriot Act". As you can see making an EFP is not the work of any higher life form. I think the Robot Economists pretty well state the history of kenetic energy weapons and the use of explosives. All you are really doing is throwing something, not unlike a lever or bow and string, just a wee bit harder.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at February 13, 2007 11:37 PM

>Why assume they came from Iran?

>And the English markings on the demo mortar round don't look much like Farsi.

It might not be a complete answer, but I remember Iran supported Hezbollah has been using shape charged explosives against Israel long ago. Shape charged explosives used in Iraq has been spotted coming from the border of Iran. The use of shape charged explosives in Iraq has been covered by a news article from Telegraph. US officials have also blamed Iran for developing and exporting these to Iraq.

Posted by: pedestrian at February 13, 2007 11:26 PM

By the way for all of you "that don't look like FArsi" experts on Iranian weapons.

http://www.iranmilitaryforum.com/pictures/IMF/Missiles/12_850.jpg

Iran is a self admitted Radical Islamist of the Shia stripe, AQ is self admitted Sunni Radicals, both groups of Islamic radicals may very well hate each other and be blood enemies at the end of the day. However "my enemy’s enemy is my friend" mentality is real and is strong (see: Churchill/Stalin-WW2 see US/Muhajadin-Afghanistan Soviet war). Both AQ and Iran have invested all in the defeat of the Big Satan aka US and the "apostate regimes" aka any Muslim nation regimes that are friendly to the Big Satan or western ways then most especially any Muslim nation that may be a Westernized type free democracy in the Turkish style aka possible future Iraq (of course given we hold heart and don't surrender).

Knowing this would it really be a stretch for Iran to supply shaped charges (only useful against US used or apostate regime armored vehicles) or SA-18's (only useful on US aircraft) or .50 cal sniper rifles (effective against US SAPI plates were your 7.62X54 is non effective).

Something else interesting is why is it that AQ doesn't target Sadr's boys but instead just whatever unlucky Shia happens to be around? Do you think AQ don't know were Sadr's boys hang out and couldn't target that house for car bomb? And Why does Sadr's militias not kill AQ boys but target whatever unlucky Sunni happens to be around? Do you think the Mehdi don't know what houses the leaders of AQ/Bathist are holed up? We know many of these locals and leaders on both sides but are either for political or sheer lack of HARD evidence unable to move on these targets.

Funny I have read a couple of stories were the moderates in neighborhoods were being forced into joining either Shia or Sunni local radical groups to get protection and protect themselves and families. May just me but sounds like the only ones gaining in this are not this or that sect but the radicals over the moderates. I think that would be called a motive my friends.

Am I the only one that remembers 04' when AQ/Bathist in Anbar/Falluja rose up in mass at the same time Sadr/Mehdi army rose up in the South/Karbala? If I remember correctly there was a pretty openly admitted "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type alliance on both of those groups part at that time. But I guess 2004 was just some dream because we all know Sunni Radicals could never work with Shia Radicals against the Big Satan.

OR maybe just maybe are we really at war a war that was forced on US not once but 79' hostage crisis, Marine Baraks, Tanker Wars, innumerable hijackings-kidnappings, black hawk down, 93'WT, Kenya, Nairobi, Kobar Towers, Cole, 9-11. Maybe just maybe their really are "bad guys" who wish to do US harm in the world because of who we are and what we stand for. Maybe just maybe if all of these un-related events all involve Radical Islamist of one stripe or another and target US maybe just maybe they are not un-related at al.

We have been at war with the Radicals for decades now already whether we want to admit it or not the war will continue and worsen until either the Radicals or US defeat the other. Whether go all in this generation or not whether we hold strong and win in the Iraq phase or falter and surrender the field, the War will continue because the Radical Islamist of both stripes have chosen Absolute Victory or Death. Just because we don't feel like fighting today or don't feel like accepting the sacrifices needed to achieve victory wont change the Islamic Radicals minds they will continue the fight until absolute victory or death.

This is not about politics or Bush its about US.

Posted by: C-Low at February 13, 2007 11:13 PM

I'm not sure about this story. The first German use of shape charges I know of in WWII was on May 10, 1940. The paratroopers attacking the Belgian fortress of Eben Emal took out the gun turrets with shape charges. I've visited the site, and the holes from the charges are clearly visible on the turrets.

Posted by: Pan at February 13, 2007 10:23 PM

Kevin G. - True, EFPs are like a subset of the shaped charge family. They are specially designed to maintain the continuity of the slug over long distances. While the measurements needed to produce an EFP are pretty precise, anyone with a proven design on paper and the appropriate materials can produce them outside of a factory setting.

Posted by: Robot Economist at February 13, 2007 10:01 PM

Yeah Yeah just Bushitler cooking the intel errrrr

Check this out more intel cooking

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml

Nothing to see here move along move along:

You guys know better than this weak propaganda via possible doubt you defenctech guys are trying to push. Hey "if the glove don't fit you must acquit".

Pitifull guys pitifull

Posted by: C-Low at February 13, 2007 09:07 PM

EFPs and shaped charges are actually two separate kinds of weapon. Both rely on the Munroe effect of explosives, which is that the shock wave emanating from a detonating material always acts normal to the surface of that material. Both shaped charges and EFPs use this phenomena to mold a

Shaped charges are formed by taking an inverted cone of metal and surrounding it with explosive. When the explosive detonates, it compresses the metal and causes it to literally spurt forward like a liquid. A lot of times you will hear people talk about jets of 'molten copper' or sometimes even a plasma jet. In reality what's happening is that the metal is being driven so fast that it's behaving like a liquid, yet remains a solid. This jet of metal can penetrate great distances, but requires very close tolerances in order to get the proper effect.

EFPs are similar, but produce a different result. A specially shaped plate of metal is embedded on one side with explosive, and the explosive is detonated. The explosive drives the metal into a projectile, which is projected forward at incredible velocities (as much as 8 km/s I've heard). These projectiles can travel significant distances before penetrating into a target.

So while EFPs and shaped charges are similar, they produce different effects. Both require precise machining and tolerances to form the proper metal components, and the material properties of the metal itself also have to be precisely controlled. The explosives also have to be particularly specialized.

So yeah, depending on the quality of the explosives it's pretty much guaranteed that they're obtaining some kind of professional assistance.

Posted by: Kevin Genson at February 13, 2007 07:19 PM

Robot is right, EFP have been around since WW1, so why are people suprised they show up in Iraq? EFP can defeat 100-150mm RHA, which is enough to shred a Humvee. I've seen pictures of troops that got hit by a molten slug travelling at 1 km/s, horrible. For a comparison, modern AT shape charge EFJ can defeat 900mm RHA. If 70 percent of all casualties are caused by IED, then the Iranian connection is statistically insignificant.

Posted by: BT at February 13, 2007 07:08 PM

Most people don't realize it, but the kinetics part of warfare really hasn't changed too much since World War II. Most of the chemical compounds in modern munitions today are still based on RDX (discovered in the 1890s), HMX (1930s) and TNT (1860s) blends. The Munroe effect (the partner effect to Misznay-Schardin that lead to the creation of shaped charges) was discovered back in 1888.

The only really amazing advances in military technology that have occured since the end of World War II that I can think of are the integrated circuit, the transistor and the Internet Protocol. And people wonder why the U.S. military is so obsessed with electronics and information technology nowadays...

Posted by: Robot Economist at February 13, 2007 06:15 PM

Byron, your post almost answers my question, but I'd like to pose it anyway.

The implication is that sophisticated techniques are needed to build these devices, that they could only come from a state agency. Aside from the fact that a lot of stuff is generally available in the international arms market, couldn't these devices be manufactured in Western Pakistan? The tribal groups are quite adept at copying any weapon they get their hands on.

Why assume they came from Iran?

And the English markings on the demo mortar round don't look much like Farsi.

Posted by: zak822 at February 13, 2007 04:50 PM

kevin h -

"water packed explosions" (sure there's a more technical term) are kinda of a new way of getting the most (directed) bang out of explosives.... By encasing one side of them in a jacket of water, they direct the explosion and maximize the effect in one direction... Not dissimilar to the effect of a shaped charge... or EFP... or whatever they're calling it these days.

Posted by: Bradley at February 13, 2007 03:22 PM

"water packed explosions"?

Posted by: kevin h. at February 13, 2007 03:14 PM

What are the ingredience needed for a good EFP IED:

a) A good design, on what the metal and the explosive should look like and where the detonator should go. Who wants to bet that insurgent sites have all sorts of nice designs for these?

b) Some nice explosive. Ideally, it should be easily malliable/moldable into shape. Hmm, I wonder how many of those 100 tons of HMX and RDX(? I think thats what they were) are still floating around?

c) Copper or other nicely maleable metal to form the EFP itself. I wonder how many downed powerlines put up with US money were returned to the US army this way?

Am I missing something?

Posted by: Nicholas Weaver at February 13, 2007 01:45 PM

I assume it's first implementation was the Panzerfaust?

I'm glad someone pointed out that this concept is at least over 50 years old. In fact, it's no different than the shaped charge in an RPG. Same concept, new flowery name... (EFP)

Any serious terrorist or insurgent bomb maker worth his weight in sand would be aware of this simple concept.. and certainly wouldn't need Iran's help to employ it in a devastating manner.... as we're seeing.

This is yet one more reason that we should NOT engage in NATIONAL BUILDING. Particularly in a Muslim nation with a 1400 year history of internal tribal and religious conflict...

...and if for some freaking reason you DO, you CERTAINLY DON'T SHIT on your Army Chief of Staff when he bravely testifies before Congress that we would need on the order of 500,000 troops -in order to secure the PEACE after the initial conflict!

(Not to mention IGNORE and ridicule the principles of the Powell Doctrine - the hard-learned lessons of 10 years of fighting in Vietnam and the basis for our clear cut Victory in Gulf War 1 - that states quite clearly that if you are going to start a damn war, you better make damn well sure to bring OVERWHELMING force, ALL of your allies, and have a CLEARLY defined set of ACHIEVABLE goals that will define victory - BEFORE YOU invade!

But, ahhh... these clowns that blundered us into this mess are the same damn pencil-necked, paper-pushing, wing-flapping, jock-sniffers who still think we only lost in Viet Nam because the of the Media and the Hippies.

And all of the real military folks who knew better either got shit-canned, "retired", threatened into silence - or when they did speak, their realistic voice didn't feed the sensationalist machine enough to get any air time from the MSM.

Instead, we get a bunch of freaking bozo political pundits and hacks to "inform" us of all things military.

Maybe we should get back to leaving the military stuff to the Military people - and put the draft-dodging book worms back in their offices where they belong.

Posted by: Bradley at February 13, 2007 01:37 PM

Good Morning Folks,

For those of us old enough to remember the "Cold War" the "EFP's" as we are now calling them were a staple of the German Red Army Gangs of the 60's @ 70's. If I recall the first successful use of one of these devices was in the mid-60's in Bonn where a banker traveling in an armored Mercedes was take out by on of thse planted in a trashcan on a corner where the vehicle had to turn. It was nothing more then a sheet of plumbers copper with a kilo of Simtex behind it and a command detentor. The banker was cut in half by the copper as it passed through the armored vehicle.

I guess the gee wiz technology that we can expect from the terrorists is water packed explosions, very effect and very effective and CHEAP. Then they can move on to fuel air.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at February 13, 2007 01:20 PM