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Posted by: Carlos Barrera at May 20, 2009 01:22 PM

"The liberation of the Falklands" huh? am I missing something here? Maybe the authors were thinking of the Argentinian 'liberation'. The US did play a part in that seeing as they sold them the amtracs they landed in. That and the A4s the Argentinian AF used to launch CAP missions against Royal Navy ships.

The actual liberation was as a result of the British Army and the Royal Navy, and not as a result of some very minor diplomatic wrangling to save face by the State Dept.

Can we lay off the revisionist history, it is was it is.

Posted by: DDP at March 12, 2007 06:15 PM

"communist countries may not like each other but they have come to each others aid in the past."

Well, yes. And? We aided the USSR while it fought Germany. We aided the Muhajadeen vs. the USSR.

That doesn't mean we were allies, or joined at the hip. It means that, at the time, we had a mutual enemy. Nothing more.

If it's 1948, and the French--with American funding--are your enemy, who are you going to look to for support/supplies/training/'advisors'? If it's 1960, and the GVN--with American funding, equipment, training, and advisors--is your enemy, who are you going to look to for aid? If it's 1970, and America and the GVN are your enemies, who are you going to look to for aid?

The USSR and ChiComs, of course. Who else would give you aid for the express purpose of thwarting American strategic objectives? Not the first world--they rely on America. Not the third world--they couldn't even if they wanted to. Which leaves the second world.

Posted by: Max at February 26, 2007 06:21 PM

I'd just like to point out that in this "Without America" world being portrayed, the example of the world being held to ransom by tyrants with nukes couldn't happen. America invented nukes, and America doesn't exist, right? And since the rest of the world apparently couldn't manage to invent the bra or the typewriter without help, what chance would they have making nukes?

Posted by: JK at February 26, 2007 09:21 AM

well max is right the chinese and the vietnamese didn't like each other.. and they still don't.. but don't underestimate a communist country.. the thing i hate the most is ppl who see what they wanna see and i'm not accusing you of this max i'm just saying. ppl see chinese ppl and they see ppl who love americans... just because they wear western clothes doesn't mean they wanna be western.. now .. the ppl are not inherently bad ppl. but i wouldn't underestimate the control the govt has on it's people anyone remember tianamen square. and in both the korean and vietnam war.. i don't know if this was mentioned in this post.. both wars saw action of SOVIET fighter pilots.. we never could prove this at the time but it was later proved with soviet records so ho may not have been a moscow puppet but he had signifigant help from them.. and kim (senior) had help from both beijing and moscow. anyway the point of this is. communist countries may not like each other but they have come to each others aid in the past. and russia may not be commi anymore but i wouldn't be so eager to trust putin just yet. just look at the stink he's makeing over the estonia statue thing

Posted by: Andrew at February 25, 2007 11:33 PM

DW:
A) I am not saying that the Chicoms and USSR did not aid Minh's efforts. I am saying that their help does not mean Minh was their tool. Again, for a parallel, look at the US and Mujahadeen. I reiterate that it was known, by the Americans on the ground in Indochina in the '40s and '50s, that Minh was a not a USSR/ChiCom tool.
B) Whether McCarthy was right or wrong is immaterial to my point, which is that there was an anti-commie fervor in America which made a nuanced approach to policy extraordinarily difficult. If people think all commies are part of a worldwide conspiracy to destroy capitalism and the USA, they're not going to recognize the historical animosity between Vietnam and China. They're not going to recognize the rather significant differences between the assorted commie countries (keeping in mind that the Vietnamese commies went to war with the Cambodian commies and the ChiComs went to war with the VietComs. Granted, that happened later, but it illustrates the point that there was no homogenous worldwide commie conspiracy). They're not going to recognize that Minh was rather fond of the USA. They're not going to recognize that the 'movement' in Indochina is primarily anti-colonial, and that for most of the members of the movement, socialism/communism is incidental.

Instead, they're going to see 'communist' and assume 'soviet tool' and respond accordingly. And while policy makers may not be blinded by such hysteria, they nonetheless must be influenced by it; the political damage they would do to themselves by allowing their opponents to paint them as 'soft on communism' would be immense.

Posted by: Max at February 25, 2007 05:20 PM

Max; I am lost as to this comment . "Partly this was due to McCarthyism, the attendant anti-commie fervor, and the purging from State of people who actually knew Indochina from a hole in the ground. Partly it was obstinance and wishful thinking. It was wholly a mistake, however." Fisrt how does McCarthyism play into that. McCarthy was all about Communists/sympathizers in the Govt. Which I would add were well founded. If ANYONE says that he was wrong or just a madman go and do the research, read the Vernona files. It clearly shows that there were people in high places that we were to be afraid of. Second. at what level do you believe that the Soviets or Chicoms were not helping the NVA? It also has to be recognized that prior to Kennedy's death there was a very real possibility that the US was going to intercede in Angola rather than Vietnam. At this point I will concede that there was a much greater threat of soviet involvment in Angola than in Vietnam. Which is why Kennedy wanted Angola. I have to do some reading before commenting on the rest.

Posted by: DW at February 25, 2007 07:18 AM

1984. I'm interested could you enlighten us to your background? I say this in the form of are you a student? a student of history? a teacher of history? The reason I ask is that you sound just like a professor I had many years ago.

Posted by: DW at February 25, 2007 07:05 AM

" Fred F. Tabsharani"

Democrats will not make much of a change. Like Scott Ritter said in a recent speech, something to the effect of "take the top 20 democrats and see where they stand. There's no real difference with the neoconservative hawks".

Here's the speech, listen on your own, highly recommended:
http://www.traprockpeace.org/audio/scott_ritter_012407.mp3

PNAC IS imperialism. Their goal has been since the death of the sovietunion to seize the moment and grab hold of more power, more resources, more permanent military bases, just read quotes from their own documents:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/stockbauer1.html

What people hear through the MSM is pretty much what the politicians want you to hear. The best salesmen and women in the world pretty much decide what the media reports. They sell wars, they use propaganda and seldom speak the truth. Anyone oughta know this. Doesn't matter what politician it is, most of them are not telling much truth, it's not anything that serves them. Gotta keep the "ignorant masses" ignorant. Especially many neocons believe this. Search for "Leo Strauss".

China, Russia warn of world domination (2005):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-01-russia-china_x.htm

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&geopolitics_and_9/11=centralAsia

There is no real fight against terrorism.

Posted by: 1984 at February 24, 2007 11:15 PM

DW:
Of course Ho was a communist. But he was a nationalist first. He was friendly toward America, and made several efforts to form ties; these efforts were ignored by the Truman admin. His ties to the USSR and PRC consisted of getting guns from them, essentially; and he only needed to form such ties because the west was actively involved in oppressing the populace of the area.

He was no more a tool of the USSR or the ChiComs than, say, the Mujahadeen were a tool of America. What's more, the Americans in Indochina were well aware of this, and repeatedly told the Truman admin that this was the case. They were ignored as well.

The decision to back the French and suppress moves toward independence was purely realpolitik. (De Gaulle, if you'll recall, essentially said to Truman that if France didn't get its colonies back, it'd go make nice with the USSR. Rather than challenging this, Truman acquised and aided France in its quest to reassert control over Indochina. The troop ships that took French forces to Indochina in '45 were American).

By the time the French lost, Washington had managed to convince itself, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that the Vietnamese nationalist movement was an appendage of the Kremlin and/or ChiComs. Partly this was due to McCarthyism, the attendant anti-commie fervor, and the purging from State of people who actually knew Indochina from a hole in the ground. Partly it was obstinance and wishful thinking. It was wholly a mistake, however.

Posted by: Max at February 24, 2007 08:27 PM

oh one more thing.. that isn't even the surface of issues that piss me off.. so in the words of John Paul Jones
"I have no yet begun to fight!!"

Posted by: Andrew at February 24, 2007 04:59 AM

ok first off.. saying that we are the ones that pissed off the arabs is just plain stupid .. WE ARE THE ONES who helped out afghanistan when they were getting there asses handed to them by the russians. when the arabs finally won they wanted more weapons.. god only knows why.. we natrually said no.. they got pissed... tuff shit this whole american europe thing is stupid to.. we have saved france's ass twice from the germans who every one knows the french will always surrender to. we kept the germans alive after two world wars we were the only ones nice to them.. and for a while we had great relations i dunno why that changed.. i'm part german i love my ancestors country. i also love the one i live in now. things americans i don't think realize is we would have lost the revolutionary war if it wasn't for the europe helping us (they did it to screw the english but it still counts) the french navy blockade the english troops but INSIDE the french ships were IMPERIAL PRUSSIAN SOLDIERS sent by the kaiser in berlin.. yes everone the hessians were mercenaries that fought for the english but govt german troops actually fought the english on our side.. that is a fact that is almost never mentioned in a high school text book... also something inspirational the boxer rebellion shortly before WW1 Germans, British, French, Russians, Americans, and several other european countries i can't remember ALL FOUGHT ON THE SAME SIDE against the chinese who just plain didn't like white ppl and the fact that america has been the major force in war over the past 60 years is prolly true BUT WE DIDN'T START THEM.... FUCK and those of you who don't know anything about history we didn't enter either world war 1 or 2 until it had been fought for a few years.. imagine a war that started without us ... lemme see N korea invaded south.. they started it.. north vietnam invaded south.. like south korea south vietnam ASKED for our help.. iraq invaded kuwait. al quada HIT US ON OUR SOIL!!!!! saddam gave bonuses to the familys of suicide bombers. and this i will say... no wmds were found in iraq is the stupidest arguement i've ever heard WHAT ABOUT THE BODIES all the bodies who apparently died from gas exposure.. there was almost as much genocide there as in africa. and the thing i disagree with my govt about was WE WAITED SO LONG TO ATTACK we warned them and gave them PLENTY OF TIME to get their weapons to other countries like iran and syria ... most of the iraqi air force is still in iran from the first gulf war. i honestly agree with DWW on most of his points especially about our celebrities.. i once talked to a friend of mine in british columbia.. who was offended the united states was beefing up it's northern border patrols.. well uhhh canada doesn't check their international flights like we do.. so we wanna double check to make sure no terrorists get in.. plus like i told him ... we wanna make sure the american hippies stay north of the border... we .... don't want them back. and to top it all off.. i saw someone had posted a link about cia secret wars. LOL i dunno what to even say about that stupidity.. in closing.. i am an american.. who has a fondness for europe.. i don't like a lot of european govt decisions.. i do like the new administration in germany.. Merkel seems to be very knowledgeable and has more cohones than her predecessor. the EU is good in theory but so is the ACLU... go figure

Posted by: Andrew at February 24, 2007 04:52 AM

Anyone looking forward to the Academy Awards? Talk about a now defunct video? Although there are many things we can be thankful for, as a Super Power, Americans continue to embarass themselves. I can't wait until the democrats take control of the White House. Better yet, I think America (a major superpower) is ready for a woman president. Oh, yes, one other thing, she's got Terry McAuliffe on her side.

Posted by: Fred F. Tabsharani at February 24, 2007 01:27 AM

DW: So true.

And "1984" posts the URLs of Web sites as if he believes the content of these sites constitutes documented proof of his beliefs.

When Newton N. Minow called television "a vast wasteland" in 1961, we thought he was being prescient of TV, when in fact he was predicting the WWW. Anyone can print ANYTHING in a web site, and mostly they do. The veracity of web sites overall is so low that...well, it’s very, very low. Some I admit are very good, but we must be very careful about forming opinions based solely on what a few web sites report as truth.

A goal of alternate, or "counterfactual", history is to speculate about how events would have proceeded had such-and-such not happened, for instance if there were no America. There is much good literature devoted to this topic, for example, Alfred Coppel's "The Burning Mountain", which describes how the invasion of Japan might have proceeded had the Trinity test failed.

Turning this forward looking vision 180 degrees and looking backward—“in hindsight”—judging the morality and effectiveness of contemporary decisions on unknowable future circumstances--is wrong. We can only judge a past decision based on what was known AT THE TIME! And we can only make moral judgments about past actions based on the morality of those times.

The United States of America is demonstrably not imperialist. Cuba, The Philippines, Germany, Japan, Italy and Kuwait are free because of the United States. Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Guam got to vote in free and fair elections: Independence, Territory, or State. Were we an empire, we would have kept all those countries and territories. And we could have.

The territories in North America which are now States were PURCHASED, free and fair. We PAID Mexico, by treaty with their defeated dictator Santa Anna, for their territories. We paid Russia, and we paid France. Spain was a colonial power defeated fair and square in a declared war. The American Indians did not have established boundaries, were not treated fairly, did not treat each other fairly and did not deal fairly with us. In my own state of Pennsylvania there are monuments to scalped and murdered settlers, killed without warning by Indians with whom they had treaties. So, the USA has not acted as an empire. Manifest Destiny is just a catchy phrase used at the time. The Cheyenne and the Cherokee probably had similar phrases when dealing with each other.

Ho Chi Min, Mao Tse-tung and all the rest of their kind of revolutionary may or may not have believed in some form of socialism or communism. What they were was despots, tyrants. It’s ludicrous to compare such monsters to our own revolutionaries. The slaughter they perpetrated on their own people was unbelievable, like Stalin and Muhammad.

If you follow the arguments since the end of WWII, they ALL went something like this:
1. That country is oppressed by a monster whom we must not support. Terminate all economic and diplomatic interaction.
2. The poor people of that country are the ones to suffer from an economic and diplomatic boycott. Engage the dictator of that country, and we will be able to influence him to change.
Which country are we talking about? The same one. If the current American administration is doing #1, its opponents both foreign and domestic argue that they should do #2. And if we were doing #2? Well you get the idea. And which country was that? Well....every one!

Posted by: Earl at February 23, 2007 10:12 PM

I find it amazing that the "blame America" group sure seems to be benifiting from the same "Imperialism" that they wine about. On a seperate note: A Question to Max; are you postulating that Ho was not Communist? or that he had no ties to the Soviets. There were many ties to the Chinese, in which he received weapons (artillery etc..) and safe haven for wounded fighters from the CHinese. While there was a huge swell of nationalism which he fostyered, that was in part because the uneducated had no clue about either socialism or communism. Removing the yoke of colinialism allowed the fanning of flames for nationalism. This in turn led to socialism.

Posted by: DW at February 23, 2007 08:32 PM

..and then I came upon this, also on Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/winston.asp

It reminds me that we have been friends for a long time, and will disagree as friends do, but are still bound powerfully by shared culture and past events.

I think as time passes, we will forget current differences and be fine friends again.

Posted by: Earl at February 23, 2007 06:14 PM

Mike, there're several problems with the 'lesser of two evils' argument.

In the first place, the pattern of behavior seen in the Cold War was simply a continuation of the policies begun with the Spanish-American War. The difference was that America was acting globally, rather than just in Latin America and parts of the Pacific.
In the second place, quite a few American decisions had nothing to do with combating or containing the USSR. Take the overthrow of the freely elected Iranian government, for instance; Mossadegh, despite the rhetoric, was not a communist. Or Ho Chi Minh; the US govt. spent years trying to find evidence that he was being directed from the Kremlin. It didn't find any, and so declared (in 1948, IIRC) that so long as Minh didn't sever all ties with and publicly repudiate the USSR, he must be a tool of the worldwide communist conspiracy. Which was nonsense.

Posted by: Max at February 23, 2007 04:54 PM

I thought I was done with this, but some of these posts just beg for a response. (Not Thomas L. Nielsen from Denmark. He's just background noise).

If you think anti-Americanism isn't a disease of the American radical left, just read the posts from 1984. I don't know who he is or where he's from--he'll hide behind the anonymity of a book title--but he sounds like a rabid spoiled Columbia student. And virtually illiterate, as are most Columbia students.

I do however agree with some of 1984s advice--we shouldn't send any troops to quigmire after quigmire. Quigmires are TERRIBLE places. You get Quigs in your boots if you don't cover them up over night, and beer goes flat almost immediately.

Lets all agree to stay out of quigmires!

I checked out http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp to see if we have all been berating poor Al unjustly. Well, I think not. They go through double back flips of logic trying to say he didn't mean if he said it, but he said it: "...I took the initiative in creating the Interent." Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Posted by: Earl at February 23, 2007 02:30 PM

1984, some of that might be true, but look at the choices at that time and the alternatives. Sure as hell makes alot of sinse to me.

Posted by: Mike1 at February 22, 2007 11:25 PM

In many cases the alternatives have been far far better.

Posted by: 1984herewecome at February 23, 2007 08:02 AM

Can't tell if you're sarcastic or not but..

Gore + internet claim = false
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Posted by: 1984 at February 23, 2007 07:58 AM

Didn't Al Gore invent the car in 1775? I mean, he invented the Internet didn't he?

Posted by: Jason at February 23, 2007 01:52 AM

1984, some of that might be true, but look at the choices at that time and the alternatives. Sure as hell makes alot of sinse to me.

Posted by: Mike1 at February 22, 2007 11:25 PM

“At a Downing Street press conference earlier today the British Prime Minister said that President Saddam Hussein was a man he could do business with. He was speaking after it was confirmed that the Revolutionary Republic of Iraq and Kuwait had acquired nuclear weapons…”

Saddam would not have been in power without help from USA. Everyone oughta know this.

The Iranian 1979 revolution would probably never have happened either if it weren't for 1953 operation ajax coup.

Without the oil, no one in the western world would care about the middle-east, it might as well have been located in Africa.

Posted by: 1984 at February 22, 2007 09:31 PM

Oh please, it's *impossible* to know how the world would look like without USA.

And what's now going on has practically zero to do with freedom. The neocons are imperialists and if you don't know that then you haven't read their own papers and agendas. It's nothing but self serving interests to become the global hegemony, to have "full spectrum dominance" in all areas such as space, internet, water, land, economy, resources etc...things that would make any imperial madman proud. The common American has no clue on what's really going on.

And don't come talking about freedom when freedom after freedom is being eroded although no real domestic threats have shown up like the supposed hundreds or thousands sleeper cells that are just waiting to be activated.

Dictators Supported by the U.S. Governments:
http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm

CIA Third World War How 6 million People Were killed in CIA secret wars:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm

What I've Learned About US Foreign Policy: The war against the Third World:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3453261789658676035

That's some information to counterbalance the "we're the exception" myth. Our own crimes is nothing we'd like to see, and no school really teaches them.

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality--judiciously, as you will--we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

It will be interesting to see if people like Ron Paul is correct about another gulf of Tonkin event to launch the Iran war to go after made up nuclear threats or like Brzezinski just recently said that a terrorist attack within USA would be blamed on Iran. Another operation northwoods anyone?

I'm no fan of theocrats in the middle-east but I'm also certainly not fan of the self serving hypocrisy from maniacs who want to become kings of the world. Empires always fail, and USA will fail as well if it doesn't stop acting like an empire.

And no, sending troops to quigmire after quigmire is not supporting the troops. And it's not about protecting freedom no matter how much you'd like it to be the truth.

Posted by: 1984 at February 22, 2007 09:26 PM

C-Low, since when does criticism equate to hate? When your mommy told you to buckle up, did she hate you? When your friend tells you you've had a bit too much to drink, does he hate you?

Of course not. So why is it that criticising America = hating America, in your mind?

Posted by: Max at February 22, 2007 06:02 PM

You're probably right, David. It's like that Benny Hill caper back in the '70s. The nation is still scratching its collective head over that one.

Posted by: Ward at February 22, 2007 04:32 PM

Surely this is a hoax to stir up trouble?
(That famous British 'irony' which is supposed to baffle the US)

Posted by: David Hambling at February 22, 2007 03:55 PM

p.S. read the comment that I was replying to before going off half cocked. I was responding to the following.

"black americans are still being discriminated systematically in our society and got introduced to the tail end of the chain which 'happens' to be tied to the rear bumper of a frigging pickup truck and dragged? What about the mistreatment of Japanese, Italian, Irish, Hispanic and Chinese Americans? I suppose one needs to be of the right color to be 'treated correctly' here in America and if that's the case then I need to go elsewhere as I'm a mix with blood from different races. This administration needs to go as it policies are very divisive and provocative." Again read before you spout. :)

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 03:39 PM

"Yes, people get dragged behind a car/pickup here and only here in amreica but not anywhere else. What a pity! I can't believe the 'greatest' nation that ever graced the surface of this planet actually condones practices like lynching and use of such degrading words as n_____ against it's own citizens. No one race built this nation singhandedly but it took the collective efforts of different people to accomplish the work. The Germans to till the land; the Italians to build the houses; the Irish and the Chinese to help built the railroad that connected the country. These are just samples of what others had done for this country."
Wait, you actually think that these tragedies occur only here in America??? You show me ONE incident in recent History (POST 60's) where a lynching occurred or was condoned no less!You are getting off of the original point. Your "hate America" tone is where this all started. Yes the use of that word is used by SOME people.That's free speech. The same as if someone said Jew or Pollack or Ginny or whatever degrading slang can be thought up.
Your characterization of an entire nation condoning that behavior is akin to my saying that all of Europe is made up of pussies that needed the U.S. to bail them out of not one war but TWO! Not to mention the guarding of the continent against a regime that would have all of you speaking Russian! Believe my when I tell you that most Germans were grateful(I spent 6 years there) that we were there. Your comment about different people building this country is what my point has been. The difference is that some of us that are 2nd or third generation appreciate what we have here.
It may not always be pretty but we usually pull together when someone from outside of the US talks $h1t.
You also seem to forget that the early settlers (British and Dutch) did all those things that you mention.It was not all done by slaves either. That much I can prove. Not only did the earliest have to hammer out farms from forest to till the land but they also had to contend with locals that weren't really happy about them being here.
So you see, all these little punks that are in college running around with their Che' tshirts Parroting a professor and spouting Marx and Lenin just wont ever get it. The professors sole experience is that he dropped acid in the 60's and thinks that a commune is the perfect society and what we have is dirty and wrong and explotive. He wouldnt know what service to country was even if it smacked in the face. good luck in Utopia.

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 03:36 PM

Yes, people get dragged behind a car/pickup here and only here in amreica but not anywhere else. What a pity! I can't believe the 'greatest' nation that ever graced the surface of this planet actually condones practices like lynching and use of such degrading words as n_____ against it's own citizens. No one race built this nation singhandedly but it took the collective efforts of different people to accomplish the work. The Germans to till the land; the Italians to build the houses; the Irish and the Chinese to help built the railroad that connected the country. These are just samples of what others had done for this country.

Posted by: nipper at February 22, 2007 02:34 PM

"

Some of these examples are a bit dodgy, for example motor cars have been around since before the USA existed.Posted by: Phil Hunt at February 22, 2007 12:06 AM " well, not exactly Phil:
Leonaardos was for a compression"LESS" engine.

# 1509: Leonardo da Vinci described a compression-less engine.
# 1673: Christiaan Huygens described a compression-less engine.[1]
# 17th century: English inventor Sir Samuel Morland used gunpowder to drive water pumps.
# 1780's: Alessandro Volta built a toy electric pistol ([1]) in which an electric spark exploded a mixture of air and hydrogen, firing a cork from the end of the gun.
# 1794: Robert Street built a compression-less engine whose principle of operation would dominate for nearly a century.
# 1806: Swiss engineer François Isaac de Rivaz built an internal combustion engine powered by a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 02:32 PM

Not to leave out the combustion engine and Herr Benz.Benz created a two stroke with virtually no resemblance of todays combustion engine. Which by the way he based on Austrian Nicolas Ottos 4 cylinder.
1860 French inventor Jean-Joseph-Étienne Lenoir patented a one-cylinder engine that used kerosene for fuel. Two years later, a vehicle powered by Lenoir’s engine reached a top speed of about 6.4 km/h (about 4 mph). In 1864 Austrian inventor Siegfried Marcus built and drove a carriage propelled by a two-cylinder gasoline engine. American George Brayton patented an internal-combustion engine that was displayed at the 1876 Centennial Exhibition in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Henry Ford was the one who made the automobile what it is today and made available to the masses via his assembly line

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 02:29 PM

Italian physicist Enrico Fermi fled Italy and became an American teaching at the University of Chicago where the first nuke test occured.

J. Robert Oppenheimer was the scientific director of the Manhattan Project and born in New York City. Yes there were a lot of other scientists from around the world, but thats America isnt it?

"Alan Mathison Turing, OBE (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954), was an English mathematician, logician, and cryptographer." who the hell is he and what did he do.

"black americans are still being discriminated systematically in our society and got introduced to the tail end of the chain which 'happens' to be tied to the rear bumper of a frigging pickup truck and dragged? What about the mistreatment of Japanese, Italian, Irish, Hispanic and Chinese Americans? I suppose one needs to be of the right color to be 'treated correctly' here in America and if that's the case then I need to go elsewhere as I'm a mix with blood from different races. This administration needs to go as it policies are very divisive and provocative."

Any discrimination is wrong! but if you think that it only happens here, youre nuts! It happens everywhere. go to a country that still allows slavery and tell me that America hasnt made progress trying to fix the wrongs that have happened here. I would like for you to show me one policy that the current administration has created that is discriminatory! The policies of this countries past is not stellar. But think about this. When slavery was first begining most of the traders in Africa were themselves Black. As the colonization of Africa took hold it was the Europeans that were involved the most, not the US. You pointed out one tragic event in modern times about the two texans that dragged a man behind a truck, but that does not carachterize all whites or all of America. If you use that logic then I could say the same thing about Blacks over Reginald Terry. Not sure who he is? hes the white trucker that took a wrong turn during the riots in LA after the verdict on the Rodney King trial. What was done to him was no better than the dragging incident.

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 02:18 PM

The stupidity of Liberals really shines throughout this post.

Posted by: Mike at February 22, 2007 02:13 PM

Some points:

An automobile powered by the Otto gasoline engine was invented in Germany by Karl Benz in 1885.

Alan Mathison Turing, OBE (June 23, 1912 – June 7, 1954), was an English mathematician, logician, and cryptographer.

Most of the people working on the nuclear bomb were European scientists. In fact, from the real influential people doing research BEFORE the Manhattan Project started, I would say only one american (Weeler) had any important contributions.

America's people are fine, just like people everywhere else. But is the lobbies controlling the country that dictate american policies; and these have nothing to do with the people nor are necessarily american. If there was no America those lobbies would be in the other place where military might and a manageable congress would be, so the situation would be pretty much the same we have now.

What a pointless commercial :-P

Posted by: caspercrower at February 22, 2007 01:35 PM

I am absolutely serious Wade and others. Still waiting for someone to name this utopian dreamland that beats the US in the world. Hell you guys can even use historical nations that are long dead. Until you can name a nation that is better the US is the best.

That self hating super model can be pretty convincing with why she is really an ugly monster needing emergency plastic surgery and less here cover here nip tuck blah blah. Like I said self hatred is a disease.

Posted by: C-Low at February 22, 2007 01:27 PM

Hey, C-Low if this nation is the best one ever on this planet then explain to me why black americans are still being discriminated systematically in our society and got introduced to the tail end of the chain which 'happens' to be tied to the rear bumper of a frigging pickup truck and dragged? What about the mistreatment of Japanese, Italian, Irish, Hispanic and Chinese Americans? I suppose one needs to be of the right color to be 'treated correctly' here in America and if that's the case then I need to go elsewhere as I'm a mix with blood from different races. This administration needs to go as it policies are very divisive and provocative.

Posted by: carnival at February 22, 2007 01:09 PM

C-Low, you can't be serious! (I just cracked my racket on the umpire's chair, too.) I don't see how any of this could be interpreted as self-hatred on behalf of Americans. And if it is, I guess I wasted 20 years of my adult life defending a bogus concept of what America really is.

This was posted as an example of how ridiculous things have become. I'll leave the politics out of it . . . for now.

Posted by: Ward at February 22, 2007 12:39 PM

It's fairly interesting, and to those commenting on he bias of defensetech... Please get over. Stop seeing shadows in every corner. It's just news, they report it.

I think the message is a bit subversive (that end bit?) but overall probably not bad. Then again here in the states, I'd be happy if foxnews would run something like "MUSLIMS: NOT ALL BAD" or such.

Posted by: geedeck at February 22, 2007 11:33 AM

Thank god, a case of fiction keeping up with reality!

Technically the "European Security Advisory Group" was the first with plain "anti-anti-US" propaganda in many European newspapers and even on TV. This script sounds like a silly rerun of their Chemical, Biological and nuclear flavoured tv ads ... http://www.bearstrong.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?search=esag#1461 Has anyone figured out if this involved US tax dollars and the US dept. of strategic influence yet? Sounds like a FOIA request for "anything related to DoD contact with VALE international" should do the trick.

But the British comedy series "Absolute power" was even closer to their ad. Look at Season 2 Episode 5 "Spinning America". If you have paid you BBC license fees you could get a torrent...
http://www.demonoid.com/details.php?torrent_id=931777&5427554

The TV ad starts, A dark street in black and white, haunting voices
Uneasy narrator: "England 2010"
the camera moves on with a twitching low angle showing scared and depressed faces walking the otherwise empty shopping streets.
Uneasy narrator: "A fast food giant has driven out English restaurants from the British high streets"
The camera enters a small and dark fast food restaurant. A young guy stands behind a
He wears lederhosen. In strong accent he says "If you BUY the souper size fondue you get a free William tell doll"
The camera jumps back to the dark street
Uneasy narrator: "at the local cinema, the latest blockbuster is playing" the narrator says in a British accent that is getting stronger and stronger. The Camera zooms in on a movie poster it entitled:"The last tram from Zurich"
In front of a music store
Uneasy narrator: "And home grown bands dont have a chance of topping the charts"... In the window display a TV play a music clip.... ITS YODELING!

A warm voice with a US accent: "If there has to be a world supper power, aren`t you glad it isn`t Switzerland?" A colorful waving US flag appears AND "Why everybody loves America!!!!!" the attack ad finishes ;-)

"Absolute power" is a brilliant BBC comedy that is as accurate about the work of the Rendon or Lincoln group and VALE international as "Yes minister" was about British politics ;-)

Posted by: yut at February 22, 2007 11:12 AM

Defensetech says Screw being partisan lets just go for full alt LLL wing insanity. and f*ck america tooo ahayeeyeyeaa

yeah and I guess it would be totally out of line to question the patriotism of you Sam, Macaca, Foreign Boy, Bison, Shad, JB, and ohh yeah Ward. You peeps remind me of a one of those dum super models that are near death (or dead) skinny becuase everytime you look in the mirror all you see is this or that imperfection. Self hate is a disease nobody's perfect nor ever will be, that goes X's 300+million for a nation the size of the US.

When you compare the US you must compare US to other nations not some unacheivable utopia figment that has never existed. For you guys I mentioned above name a better nation and go there PLEASE, we really don't need ya. My nation the US may not be perfect but its by far the best nation on earth and we don't need you self hating tards trying to drag US with you into some suicide becuase you hate yourself and your nation. Go suck a pistol (and no thats not a gay reference).

Posted by: C-Low at February 22, 2007 10:56 AM

This video completely miss the point,a world without the United States of America would be very different.But nobody cares about that.
What people are complaining about isn't the existence of the US,it's the way the US is behaving.

Honestly,I am not anti-american and I consider the current US foreign policy to be stupid and extremely dangerous.

There's also those who for some reasons believes it would be better if the US(and the west)stayed quiet instead of distributing bad points and good points to sovereign states like an all-seeing god.

There's also those who believes that the US is far too powerful for its own good and the good of the world.Iraq probably confirmed their belief.

There's the muslims,those are a special case.I guess they need a convenient scapegoat.

And there's what I call the idiots.Self-righteous people mostly european and sometimes US liberals who contribute absolutely nothing and just critisize everything that isn't perfectly moral by their completely unrealistic standard.Personnaly,I despise them.

Posted by: ZeusIrae at February 22, 2007 10:44 AM

Bison

Tyranny has been the norm of human governance since the dawn of civilization. It is the default form of governance that every nation on Earth would go to if you were to remove its security and prosperity. We have often picked from several factions of would be tyrants. To think that if we had not supported one the alternative would have been a shining example of human governance goes against the whole of human history.

Posted by: JMD at February 22, 2007 10:21 AM

No argument there, JP. And we get paid for this? Soooweeet!

Posted by: Ward at February 22, 2007 10:11 AM

I know it must be hard to resist but I suspect things like the editor's end note just perpetuate what is already a silly situation.

Posted by: jp at February 22, 2007 10:05 AM

Please excuse the typos in my comment below.
- less cultural degeneration. The US puts out more food production that feeds more people around the world than Europe combined!
This should read:
America has the most diverse culture in the world. No one is forced to live one way or another. If you dont want our culture in your country stop buying our products. How many American films have you seen? how many McD's burgers have you eaten? how many pairs of jeans do you own? As far as language, if you are in Euoro or Britain be thankfull its not Russian or German.

Posted by: DW at February 22, 2007 09:59 AM

Ummm.. wasn't polo vaccine created by a canadian?
Jonas Salk was born in New York City.Thus an American

Denim came from gay Paris!
Denim was created by Levi Strauss during the California gold rush in the 1840s. He was a jewish emigre'
The internet was created by tim burner's lee... its america that make the internet what it is today.
The internet was created at UCLA Stanford in conjuction with DARPA. A US military group looking for a dedicated safe way to pass information in case of a Soviet Nuclear attack..WWW was coined and in part invented by Lee

The super computer is a result of years of combined research.. someone would have invented it eventually... which began here in the States.(punch cards in the 1890s by statistical engineer Herman Hollerith who worked for the us census bureau)
E.N.I.A.C.at Moore school of Electrical Engineering of University of Pennsylvania in 1942 for computing trajectory tables.

Afganistan is "America's forgotten war" and is far from free..Afghanistan has had FREE elections, women and girls go to school, men are not beeten for shaving their beards, women can walk the street without a male family member, sounds better than it use to huh? It's not over but it's a hell of a lot better than it was.
Oh.. and Saddam Huesein wouldn't ever gotten to power if america didn't solidify his power and sell him weapons...
"Hussein had joined the revolutionary Baath party while he was a university student. He launched his political career in 1958 by assassinating a supporter of Iraqi ruler Abdul-Karim Qassim. Saddam rose in the ranks after a Baath coup, and by 1979 he was Iraq's president and de facto dictator."In 1978, Saddam had been working with other Arab nations to ostracize Egypt for it's diplomatic initiative in resolving Israel/Arab questions. An ally, President Hafez al-Assad of Syria, almost became the undoing of Hussein's ascension. If a Syrian/Iraqi federation were formed against Egypt, Assad, not Hussein, would rise to a position of greater power in the relationship. President Bakr would lead the federation with Assad as second in command. Hussein could not allow that to happen and began to urge the President to step down. Again with the help of his family and security apparatus, Hussein was able to accomplish his task.

On July 16, 1979, President Bakr resigned, officially due to health problems, but in reality a victim of Hussein's political in-fighting. Moving quickly to consolidate his power, he called a major Baathist meeting on July 22, 1979. During the meeting, various family members and other Hussein devotees urged that the party be "cleansed". Hussein then read a list of names and asked that they step outside. Once there, they are taken into custody" As far as selling him weapons? the US sold weapons to an enemy of our enemy. If you may remember (or not) Iraq was at war with Iran.Who at that time we would have liked to have seen the Islamic ruling party thrown from power due to the hostage crisis of 1979/1980.

in response to macaca; Without America we'd have:
- a cleaner enviroment. Why? because we have the largest economy that fuels most of the rest of the world? We use more fuel than other nations but we also have some of the most stringent policies on pollution and how much we put out. AS opposed to CHina and India (two emerging economies that have virtually NO eco friendly policies what so ever.
- less global warming. This is inevitable, their is an ebb and flow to the ozone, which I may add has almost all of it's research coming form where? yes the US.
- less war, yep europe and Asia/Japan had absolute harmony prior to America dragging everyone into world conflicts. Oh Wait! that wsa Europe right?
- less tyrants (because nobody labels them that way)I am totally clueless and speachless on this brilliant comment
- less fat people, yep, any country that is not 3rd world has no fat people.
- less corporatism. Yep BMW/Audi/VW/Porshe/Saab/Volvo.. jsut little corner store companies right?
- less cultural degeneration. The US puts out more food production that feeds more people around the world than Europe combined!
- less stupid celebs. We dont want them you can have them.
- less formula-movies. again take them.I'll bet when you combine Balliwood and Hollywood you'll have a bunch of real good movies.
- less angry arabs. Yep the Brits werent pissing them off 60 years ago right?
- more oil and stuff for the rest of the world.Again, maybe if the rest of the world had our GDP they would be right up there with us
- more indians, more bisons. Indians were being exploited by euros and spaniards long before America became merica. Yes the loss of all those bison and the sensless slaughter of them is a tragedy, but! we are helping to bring them back and they are protected for the most part.Some are farmed for meat. Lets not discuss how the Dutch, Brits, and Euros almost completely gutted Africas animal population. Not to mention how many Euros and Asians still allow the import of Rhino/elephant ivory. Which by the way America bans.
- less stupidity from the brits (because there's no big brother to go to if the frenchy's get angry)The Frogs get angry thats funny. AS General George Patton was supposedly quoted as saying " I would rather have a NAZI in front of me than a frenchman behind me" Have good day.

Posted by: DWW at February 22, 2007 09:51 AM

Umm... zo... the literal meaning of Taliban is student... so if you are saying our forefathers were students I suppose they were at sometime...
In all other respects your analogy is completely wrong. Now don't speak anymore. 'K thanks :)

Posted by: J.B. at February 22, 2007 09:44 AM

A real grassroots effort, which in my opinion once did more for mutual transatlantic understanding than this PR-driven action, was the http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ website, with its sister project http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/ .
Calling the dislike of the US governmental/corporate policies "antiamericanism" and equaling it with hate towards rank-and-file Americans - so often themselves a collateral damage of those policies - is akin to using said Americans as psychological warfare human shields.

Posted by: Shad at February 22, 2007 09:39 AM

Pardon me Macaca, but less war?????

I am afraid that America has been the primary reason for the death of major wars over the past 60 years. American power has guaranteed the sovereignty of many more countries than it has grossly violated. If you consider the fact that no nation or empire has ever had such a qualitative advantage in military power in the history of man, America's behavior has been, by historical precedent, incredibly benign. Do not take that as a sign that I am pleased with the current administration. Its foreign policy has demonstrated a naivete that would almost be impressive if it wasn't so damn dangerous.

Sam,

Do you really think that the native peoples of the Americas would have been at all better off if we hadn't broken away from Britain? First off the mast majority of them were "screwed" when the first white man made landfall. This would have happened no matter how good the intentions might have been as the slew of deadly pathogens that were novel to the western hemisphere would have ravaged every population across the continent. Then there is the issue of whether European powers would have treated them any better and from European experience in the Americas you would have to conclude that they would not.

Posted by: JMD at February 22, 2007 09:38 AM

When I talk to the staffers in the offices of my Congressman or Senators, they tell me that there are days when not a single private citizen calls their office, or sends a fax. Their only interaction with the country on such days might be with professional lobbyists.

I do call, both Congress and the White House, send e-mail and faxes, write letters. I vote. I write letters to the editor of my local newspaper. I have only the power of a single citizen, but I do what I can to influence the policies of my government.

And yes, it is my government. Even when I’m part of the minority 49.99% whose candidate did not get elected, it’s still my government. Even when my candidate gets elected but disappoints me, it’s still my government. I can complain, campaign, vote for someone else next time. It’s my government. I believe that we get the government that we deserve, especially when we do nothing but complain, or threaten violence, or march and protest in the streets then go home instead of voting. A mob doesn’t vote.

I’m responsible. I’m an American and a veteran. I don’t hate myself, my neighbor who disagrees with me politically, or my government. I’m proud of my country. When foreigners criticize my country, or my government, or me, I will respond and defend my country. Verbally.

I’m saddened by Americans who hate their country. Perhaps, as I have been told, it is liberal guilt. Or an extension of teenage revolt. The same kind of folks who spit on young Americans returning from Vietnam are still with us.

It’s no fun, really, to criticize a country that does not care. So our friends the Europeans, and the Brits, criticize us. We’re a big target, and they can get a response. It’s no fun going after China, or Russia, North Korea, Iran and a hundred others who are oppressive and inhumane.

When China finally sees the alignment of forces as being favorable and invades Taiwan, I hope we stay out of it, despite the treaty. But I predict that we will be blamed for whatever happens.

So, why not start now? Lets start another thread about why it is America’s fault that China has conquered Taiwan.

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 09:28 AM

Hmm.. a world without the only tyrant - good old USA would mean more oil for the rest of the world and less pollution. Just look at the burning coal mines in WV and the eastern seaboard. There would have been no military dictators anywhere in the world because Uncle Sam wasn't there to lend a helping hand. May I suggest to the neo-cons to keep an open mind and look at the long lists of despots and two bit generals the Americans have supported in the past and still do at the present moment. I hope people like you would get your just
'desserts' when the time comes.

Posted by: bison at February 22, 2007 09:21 AM

Ummm.. wasn't polo vaccine created by a canadian?
The internet was created by tim burner's lee... its america that make the internet what it is today...

There is a lot of little things americia does to force out countries... such as a mandatory 20% culture import... they must import TV shows and movies

The super computer is a result of years of combined research.. someone would have invented it eventually... really this guy is really miss placing his credits...

Afganistan is "America's forgotten war" and is far from free....

If america didn't exist.. I'm sure someone else would do the same thing they do.....

Oh.. and Saddam Huesein wouldn't ever gotten to power if america didn't solidify his power and sell him weapons...

Posted by: Foreign.Boy at February 22, 2007 08:48 AM

Denim came from gay Paris!

Posted by: Irishsoldier at February 22, 2007 07:56 AM

From what I've seen in my recent European travels (London, to be precise) I'd agree with Embersfire's comment (posted at 1:16 am). And, for the record, I'm good with that.

Posted by: Ward at February 22, 2007 07:24 AM

Without America we would no doubt be worse off as 18 Doughty Street says. It is great that we now have a right-wing balance to the left-wing BBC and Channel 4 news.

At the same time, though, we must all recognise that all countries (England included) has its own interests paramount, and we should not be surprised that the US doesn't always please everyone else -- they would be weak and less successful if they did.

Posted by: Gavin Ayling at February 22, 2007 06:59 AM

What are the components that define and describe anti-Americanism? My guesses are 1)liberal (Europe) vs conservative values (US) 2)values of Kantism influenced Europe (such as value of life, stnce of death penality in specific) and influence of John Locke's values on Americans 3)a little of Protestant vs Catholic 4)regionalism and nationalism 5)weight of pacifism of Europe vs weight of spreading democracy more than pacifism of US 6)Social Democratic vs Capitalism 7)influence of anti-American Muslims within Europe.

Posted by: pedestrian at February 22, 2007 06:01 AM

> Why would we need Europe for the WWW to function?

America may have invented the internet, but there is a little something called html, and another little something called the World Wide Web - invented by Tim Berners Lee (who happens to be British).

Posted by: Andy at February 22, 2007 05:55 AM

>BTW, without Europeans, you wouldn't have the WWW and all the web sites to bitch about them.

Why would we need Europe for the WWW to function? Tell me who invented the Internet? What was it's purpose? Are the Europeans the only other people who have access to the Internet today? We are not mentioning all Europeans about anti-Americanism and yes there are also other oppinions as well.

Posted by: pedestrian at February 22, 2007 05:49 AM

>Despite what the folks at 18 Doughty Street would have us believe, most of us Europeans
>actually like America - we just happen to hate the bunch of crooks who are running the country.

The congressmen are selected by the majority of the people who have casted their vote. They represent our country, and the voice of the majority, at least partial. Criticism of our government is also indirectly criticism against the majority of the Americans. As an example of anti-Americanism, US is often criticized for imperialism, part of the anti-American slogans.

Posted by: pedestrian at February 22, 2007 05:44 AM

So some Europeans make a video defending America, and all you can do is make sarcastic comments? Perhaps it is attitudes like yours that causes the anti-American feelings in the first place.

BTW, without Europeans, you wouldn't have the WWW and all the web sites to bitch about them.

Posted by: Andy at February 22, 2007 05:29 AM

or computers - ever heard of Alan Turing?

Posted by: Alex at February 22, 2007 05:20 AM

Just for your information, our "forefathers" that got so pissed off that they came to the New World were nothing less than the "Taliban" of the time. Extremists that probably make the current Taliban pale in comparison.

And before you have a cow about calling our own forefathers Taliban, you may want to actually find out what "Taliban" means and you'll see that the analogy is correct.

So, yeah, our great country was founded by religious extremists and then got its independence through "terrorism" (hey, Bush said it, not me) by sniping off the Red Coats through guerrilla warfare and such.

Posted by: zo at February 22, 2007 05:04 AM

"...and if you don’t like my government, you don’t like ME!"

So you can't hate your government because it would mean that you hate yourself. Do you always vote for whoever that it's in power? Or with certain administrations you indulge in to hate yourself a little?

Posted by: Seneca at February 22, 2007 04:45 AM

Without America we'd have:
- a cleaner enviroment
- less global warming
- less war
- less tyrants (because nobody labels them that way)
- less fat people
- less corporatism
- less cultural degeneration
- less stupid celebs
- less formula-movies
- less angry arabs
- more oil and stuff for the rest of the world
- more indians, more bisons
- less stupidity from the brits (because there's no big brother to go to if the frenchy's get angry)

I would like to continue, but i'll save some ammo for the flame war

Posted by: Macaca at February 22, 2007 04:08 AM

Re. Earl's post of February 22, 2007:
To quote: "Well, FUCK YOU. I’m an American, the American government is MY government, and if you don’t like my government, you don’t like ME!"

Two things, Earl:
1. No thanks, I have a headache.
2. Earl, I don't like you.

Regards, etc.
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas L. Nielsen at February 22, 2007 03:20 AM

Ward:

More things we should thank Europe (and the Brits) for:

Cheese.
Beer.
Arthur Conan Doyle.
Pasta.
Reindeer.
Did I already say Beer?
The printing press (no, the damned Chinese did NOT invent printing!).
Beer.

I'll try to think of some more tomorrow.

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 02:16 AM

Perhaps we're being too hard on Phil. Didn't Leonardo invent the motor car? Or perhaps it was the Chinese. Now that they are going to inherit the USSR's super-power status, they claim to have invented everything, and all prior to 1,000 BCE at that!

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 02:02 AM

One of my liberal acquaintances, when traveling overseas, wears a Canadian flag camera strap. But then he’s a college professor, so he’s ashamed of being an American when he travels to Battle Creek, let alone France or Morocco.

For myself, I’ll be damned if I will do that. My American Flag strap remains on my camera. And I get tired of Brits and Europeans telling me all about how they like me, it’s my government they have a problem with. Well, FUCK YOU. I’m an American, the American government is MY government, and if you don’t like my government, you don’t like ME!

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 01:28 AM

" French aid to the Americans in the Revolutionary War bankrupted the French monarchy" ?

And I thought it was the world war being fought between France and England that caused that. Another (or perhaps a continuation of the same one) resulted from the French Revolution and Napoleon’s conquests.

Iran, far from having a socialist democracy, would probably be a part of the successor state to the Ottoman empire (which would not have been dissolved after WWI). And besides, the chances of an Islamic state having anything that looks like a democracy is exactly zero. Modern Turkey teeters on the brink of military dictatorship, which is what props up the democracy and staves off Islamofacism there.

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 01:20 AM

‘Anti-Americanism’ is a politicised term that has more to do with perception than actual reality. It’s most common function is to any deflect criticism of the Bush administration by conflating the actions of the government with the country itself and its people.

Despite what the folks at 18 Doughty Street would have us believe, most of us Europeans actually like America - we just happen to hate the bunch of crooks who are running the country. The same way if somebody over here happened to criticise the Italian government, nobody would be accusing them of ‘anti-Italianism’. That would have about the same level of ridiculousness.

Posted by: EmbersFire at February 22, 2007 01:16 AM

Some interesting comments by Sam, so how about this:

1. The French and Spanish would have free reign to oppress Native American tribes in their North American Colonies, as well as the continued slaughter and oppression of these tribes by each other. Compared to the Spanish, the colonial English and other Europenas were Teddy Bears.

2. The Spanish would have extended agricultural slavery from their Carribean colonies throughout the American South, Southwest and West.

3. The entire North American South, Southwest and West would now look like Mexico, that is to say a Third World slum.

4. Hawaii, having been unified by brutal conquest , would look just like the rest of the Pacific Islands: constant tribal warfare and canabalism.

Changing the way things are isn't the point. Evaluating the way things are, based on what might have been, is the point. Perhaps leading to better decisions for the future. It's clear that leaving the 20th Century to the Europeans was a disaster.

Posted by: Earl at February 22, 2007 01:09 AM

Damn they made a car before 1776. Holy shit. i learn something every fucking day.

Posted by: Mike at February 22, 2007 01:03 AM

Phil, could you please give me an example of a motor car that existed before 1776? I'm honestly curious.

Posted by: Lee Gibson at February 22, 2007 01:00 AM

A "World Without America" would be much darker than portrayed in this video. Consider a failed American Revolution, and a Balkanization of the North American continent:

1. Continued Spanish colonial presence in America and the Pacific, to the severe detriment of these areas.

2. No Panama Canal.

3. Japanese isolation extended.

4. WWI fought to a draw.

5. The inevitable WWII would have resulted in a catastrophic defeat of Britain, France, Australia and Canada, and the end of democratic government in the world.

6. WWIII, would have been non-nuclear, but would have crushed the Soviet Union between Germany and Japan. (Perhaps a net gain for humanity, as Stalin was the worst monster of all time).

7. Africa, colonized by Italy and Germany. India conquered and colonized by Japan.

8. China reduced to endlessly waring states controlled by warlords.

We can go on and on, here, but I think the results of no United States of America would have been devastating to human civilization. No other country could have even come close to accomplishing what we have accomplished for the world since the Civil War.

Posted by: Earl Adams at February 22, 2007 12:58 AM

I like how they don't point out that "a world without America would be a world without a French Republic." French aid to the Americans in the Revolutionary War bankrupted the French monarchy, and the enormous war debt is seen as one of the main causes of the French Revolution. Let's see, what else would there be? Iran would have a socialist democracy; Spain would still have large colonial holdings, or would have maintained them into the 20th century; the Russians would have soundly lost the Russo-Japanese war without T.R. to arrange a peace treaty; no Panama canal; Hawaii would be a Polynesian monarchy; discovery of flight would have been pushed back; and, oh, yeah, how could I forget? The Indians. They might not have been screwed so hard. All in all a mixed bag and kind of a stupid question to bring up, since it doesn't change the way things are. Oh, yeah, and no one would ever have to suffer through "Last of the Mohicans", "Moby Dick", "Walden", "The Great Gatsby", or anything by Anne Bradstreet. Oh, yeah, no Donner party, no Mormons, no KKK, no plantations, no robber barons, etc.

Posted by: Sam at February 22, 2007 12:55 AM

Some of these examples are a bit dodgy, for example motor cars have been around since before the USA existed.

Posted by: Phil Hunt at February 22, 2007 12:06 AM