Defense Tech: Picking the Killers from the Kids


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Edited by Christian Lowe \| Contact

Picking the Killers from the Kids

During a Pentagon briefing yesterday, the Joint Chiefs’ head of regional operations, BGEN Perry Wiggins, deconstructed a recent operation to take out Taliban fighters hiding among children.

The explanation comes as the military takes fire from the Afghan government on civilians killed in the crossfire between coalition troops and Talib holdouts.

And it’s also interesting to note, the detailed description of the Special Forces troops’ avoidance of friendly fire comes in sharp contrast to the Army’s condemnation of the Marine Corps’ commandos who were booted from Afghanistan after their response to a roadside ambush killed civilians in the crossfire in March.

BGEN Wiggins:

I'm sure all you know, there's been a lot of recent coverage about civilian casualties associated with the counterinsurgency operations against the Taliban. Here's an illustration of how we actually operate against the barbaric enemy that we face in the Afghanistan theater, and shows the restraint and precision exercised by our forces with respect to the civilian populace.

On May 8th and into May 9th, a combined patrol of U.S. Special Forces and Afghan national army forces killed over 150 Taliban fighters in an engagement north of Sangin, in Helmand province of Afghan's southern province. This enemy contact was in support of NATO's international security force, Operations Achilles. During the fight, U.S. forces initially encountered high-capable Taliban in the Sangin valley, who pursued our units in an effort to seize an offensive advantage. Our forces repelled the initial Taliban assault and, using terrain and close air support, engaged the enemy with devastating effect.

During this engagement in Sangin, intelligence indicated there was a major or a senior Taliban commander for Helmand province at a particular target compound.

What you see here is an actual snapshot from the full-motion video asset, which was able to confirm the presence of 10 to 20 Taliban, circled in green, at this target compound.

Through the same -- through the use of the same full-motion video asset, children, circled in red on the slide, were identified near the objective. Consequently, U.S. Special Forces did not engage the target compound, due to the risk of harm to civilians. This is an example of the care taken to prevent civilian casualties and mitigate risk to them amid a long and intense battle with the enemy.

It was learned after this engagement that the Taliban fighters were taking refuge among local villagers, using them as human shields. This angered the Sangin tribal leaders, who blamed the Taliban for deliberately involving civilians and bringing the fight to the area. In response, the local elders mobilized an anti-Taliban militia that reportedly killed three Taliban leaders and captured 15 Taliban fighters.

-- Christian

Comments

I'm Scottish and I'm also an American!

Here is a list of things you will never understand Raymond Northgreaves::::::
LOYALTY,DUTY,RESPECT,SELFLESS-SERVICE,HONOR,
INTEGRITY,PERSONAL COURAGE.

You are just one more Jock ars'ole who helped the Roman Catholice IRA murder 2510 of my comrades - I served 22 years in the British Army and in my time of service we did not murder children to win a fire fight.

I'm English and we are feed up of you Jocks living on our backs, and our taxes, go to HELL Pal!

Ask the US Army for some education, you need it.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at July 5, 2007 05:17 PM

I'm Scottish and I'm also an American. I was deployed to Afghanistan when I joined the ARMY and I fought the Taliban and Al-qaeda with the rest of my platoon. There have been losses of civilians in Afghanistan forever. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are acting like a (glorious Monarchy) over there and it's something I take offense to, when these cunts try to say all we do is kill civilians and aren't making progress in Iraq or Afghanistan I become enraged. The truth of the matter is that we are making progress and trying set up a foundation for these countries to have schools, hospitals, better economy, and freedom from senseless violence such as IED attacks and terrorist bombings. Anyone who is American should be proud of our troops, I know I'm proud to be an American soldier and I'm disgusted with these people who haven't been in combat but think they know it all. The facts show that in both countries the highest civilian cassualties come from terrorists. Here is a list of things you will never understand Raymond Northgreaves::::::
LOYALTY,DUTY,RESPECT,SELFLESS-SERVICE,HONOR,
INTEGRITY,PERSONAL COURAGE.

Posted by: FREEDOM at June 26, 2007 10:48 PM

John, Hi!

You are so wrong in all you write, you have not understood any thing that I have wrote – Great Britain went to war against Nazi Germany and Italy in 1939, and we sounded the alarm to the world holding our own – you heard it in 1943, after many of your people wanted to join the Nazi against us – the war ended in 1945, so we did not do to bad did we. You also said:

“One other thing I want to say before I close the people that moved her in the 1600s from England were moving here to escape persecution and oppression of their religious beliefs by your glorious Monarchy”

Why then, do you support persecution and oppression of other nations peoples?

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at June 4, 2007 04:39 AM

Raymond:
Please say that I'm reading this wrong!! You are critizing the U.S. for engaging the taliban and bin laden for what they have cause here in the U.S.?? The taliban subjecated the people there in Afghanistan both religiously and humanitarly and you say that we were wrong in going there to right the wrong? Bin laden attack us and we are notto fight back?
I greave for all the U.S. soldiers that died in WW2 to save your arses from the Natzis. Maybe we should have stayed out of that conflic! I believe that you would be speeking German by now.
By the by what about your glorious monarchy that has opressed the the Scotts and the Irish??
Should the U.S. support a revolution so the rightful King of Scotland would retake his throne??
I faught in Nam and I saw many women and children used not only as human sheilds but as human bombs and children as soldiers 10 year olds using aks. Many of my friends died because of them.
War is hell many people die, good and bad!
As a species humans will always fight each other for one reason or another. When people that don't have want what the poeple that have and try to obtain or try to opresse their people to gain power and wealth there will always be conflict in the world.
One other thing I want to say before I close the people that moved her in the 1600s from England were moving here to escape persecusion and opression of their religious beliefs by your glorious Monarchy!!
Any comments Ramond or are you to affraid to step up defend your views??
John

Posted by: John at June 3, 2007 06:51 PM

We Veterans of The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation ‘Salute’ this Man!

"I refuse to be silent any longer. I refuse to be party to an illegal and immoral war against people who did nothing to deserve our aggression. My oath of office is to protect and defend America's laws and its people. By refusing unlawful orders for an illegal war, I fulfill that oath today." - U.S. Army First Lt. Ehren Watada

Never be silent whenever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. You must always take a side. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages your enemy. Our soldiers are human beings, and we all have the same enemy, “Politicians are the enemy of all”.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at June 3, 2007 08:55 AM

Former SSgt. JL - Learn to spell? What words – is that all you can come back with. What about the 2,510 British soldiers that you and your government paid the IRA to murder – you condoned Terrorism against us English, but when it is happening to you Yanks you don’t like it. I am a disabled Vet you are not the only one so get off your sad arse and use that little brain you seem to have pal.

What is happening in my country now, has been going on in the USA for all time, and you have just sat back and let it, as my people are doing so now:

Treason in England by the Elected Politicians (TEEP).

THE CONSTITUTION.

We, the British people, used to enjoy a protection afforded to very few countries in our World. Geographically we live on an island. Which has for a thousand years protected us from invasion, and politically, we made ourselves an Ireland by using the wisdom of those thousand years to create a Constitution with which to protect us from ourselves – by agreement and internal treaties between the people, and the Monarch our forbears forged a democratic accountability throughout the world.

From the time of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 the Monarch ceased to rule by Divine Right and became the physical embodiment of the people, who hold the supreme power of sovereignty.

The sovereignty of the English nation as defined and chronicled in the treaties known aw the Magna Carta; the Declaration of Rights of 1688, and entrenched in the Bill of Rights of 1689, is protected by the Constitution as enshrined in those documents which clearly forbids the surrender of sovereignty to any foreign power, overlord or the collective of foreign alien nations.

Any attempt therefore to plan or plot the surrender of our sovereignty to any foreign alien power or overlord is clearly, and unquestionably an act of treason against the people.

To ensure that anyone entrusted of Official Office does not so plan, plot or conspire to engage in such treason, upon taking Office all such persons are required to swear a solemn Oath of Allegiance to HM. The Queen or King as Sovereign Head of the United Kingdom, and to uphold Her in Her Coronation Oath.

So comprehensive and precise are the laws that uphold the Constitution that only by Treason and treachery from within can the protection of the nations people be undermined.

THE MONARCH

The nation is the sum of its people; the Monarch is Sovereign Head of the United Kingdom and the embodiment of the sovereignty of the nation – “the Monarch is the people and the people are the Monarch”.

It is the protection of the Monarch’s Sovereignty and the United Kingdom that the Laws of Treason were formed as early as 1351 – as the Sovereignty of the Queen, representing the Sovereignty of the United Kingdom people, remains with her until the moment of Her death, any attempt to kill or depose Her by stripping Her of Sovereignty is an act of Treason and punishable by a sentence of total life imprisonment or death, as Treason is deemed to be the most serious of all crimes.

To remove the Monarch would be to remove the protection the Monarchy provides to us the people so that we may remain a Sovereign independent nation, able to govern ourselves with out foreign interference.

THE CORONATION OATH

Has the rightful heir, her Majesty succeeded to the throne on February 6th 1952, on the death of her Father, and acceded to the succession by swearing the Oath of Accession.

On the day of her Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, on June 2, 1953, having received the State Regalia into his temporary possession, the Archbishop of Canterbury, acting for the Church and State conducted the Coronation. The ini8tial part of the ceremony was the Recognition and Acceptance of Her Majesty as our lawful Queen. Having presented Her to the great congregation assembled in Westminster Abby, the Archbishop asked, “Sirs, I here present unto you Queen Elizabeth, your undoubted Queen. Wherefore all you who are come this day to do your homage and service, are you willing to do the same?” There followed a tumultuous cry that echoed throughout the Abby and via television and radio to the great British people and the world, “God save the Queen”. Thus was She elected to the Office and State of our Sovereign Queen unopposed?

Following this came the administration of the Coronation Oath to Her Majesty by the Archbishop who said to Her, “Madam, is your Majesty willing to take the Oath?” She replied in a clear and purposeful voice, “I am willing”. The Archbishop then asked Her if She would, “solemnly promise and swear to govern for the peoples of the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth and Her Possessions and territories according to their respective laws and custom?” She replied, “I solemnly promise so to do”. She was then asked, “will you to your power cause Law and Justice in Mercy to be executed in all Judgements?” She replied, “I will”.

Then came the investiture of Her Majesty with the State Regalia and the Anointing, and thus She became the physical embodiment of the Sovereignty of the United Kingdoms people. Without that Sovereignty She would have been unable to call Herself our Sovereign Queen, and thus would not be able to discharge the responsibilities and duties that She has freely accepted in the discharge of Her Coronation Oath to keep Her people free from foreign subjugation from without and from subversion within.

It is for this reason that MP’s the Ministers of the Crown, the members of the House of Lords, the Judiciary, the Armed Forces, the Police, and all those who draw the authority for their Office of State from Her, such as the Lord Chancellor, swear allegiance to the Queen, to protect both Queen and State – in doing so protecting the people.

No one swears allegiance to Parliament!

It is the Queen who in Her Coronation Oath undertook, with the approval of the people to govern us. The Queen appoints a government to govern in Her name for the people, administered by Her ministers and to ensure there is no doubt as to whom is officially in charge - when the Queen dissolves Parliament, Her ministers hand back to their Seal’s of Office.

It must be clearly understood by Tony Blair and his elected labour party, that Parliament being the Lords Temporal, Spiritual and the Commons, have no sovereign powers whatsoever – other then those loaned to it by the people. Parliament is no more than an estate of the realm and its members are elected, appointed or inherited representatives and servants of the people. All other elected members of Parliament should also take note of the above.

In order to ensure that Parliament is kept in check, the Queen acting as representative of the people has the power of the Royal Prerogative by which She can refuse to give Her Royal Assent to any Parliamentary Bill that She considers breaks Her Coronation Oath to Her People is unconstitutional or is not in the national interest. This reserve power has not been used for over a hundred years but remains a potent force should the need arise.

THE SINGLE EUROPEAN ACT

In 1972 the then Prime Minister Edward Heath and his Cabinet in total dereliction and betrayal of their Oaths of Allegiance to her majesty Queen Elizabeth and the United Kingdom people, knowingly plotted and conspired to surrender the nation’s sovereignty to a foreign power by signing the Treaty of Rome and passing the European Communities Act on Parliament. This was followed by a succession of treaties, mainly by Conservative government, except for Amsterdam shared by Major and Blair, and most recently Nice. Each of these disgusting Prime Ministers has surrendered sovereignty of the United Kingdom, taking away from its people their sovereignty, independent, and self-governing. They have divided the United Kingdom into sub-regions of the European Union with out the knowledge, consent or authority of its people.

From that moment Parliament itself became party to high Treason, and continued to act unconstitutionally and therefore unlawfully. By giving such controversial and duplicitous counsel to the Queen and Her ministers, have persuaded Her to govern in a particular way; that in itself is an act to Treason, by making the Queen breach Her Coronation Oath. Has a result of this treachery Parliament has unlawfully negated the Royal Prerogative and has assumed ultimate power over the people. Parliament has relinquished its role as national legislator and is assuming the position of administrator and agency for foreign power’s that have in the past waged war against us – what they could not do by force, they are now doing by using politicians that have the need for lust of greed and power, with the support of the middle classes and roman catholic community.

THE TREASON ACT

There can be no doubt that a coup has taken place by the parliamentary 600 Club; the Queen as Sovereign Head, and the people have all been disenfranchised.

A foreign style of dictatorship has been established in Parliament and is being consolidated by treasonous politicians. The plan is unfolding, and the political parties have substantially reduced party membership by abandoning individual political aspirations and identities, by colluding to discourage interest in the electorate in order to minimise participation in elections, so has to rig the votes – the British media are playing a very large part in this corruption of Democracy. Parliament is making every effort to destroy the nation state by dismantling and ignoring the Constitution in its devolution and rationalisation, using spurious measures, claiming it is Parliamentary reform in the destruction and abandonment of our leading industries.

It is now very nearly too late for the sovereign peoples of Great Britain to decide whether they wish to retain their identity and independence – contained in their island fortress, or abandon the concept and right of nationhood, and political self – determination has enshrined in the Constitution, accepting the oppressive dictate of external alien powers who are controlling the very essence of our now corrupted democracy.

Should the sovereign people of our lands want the former, they must insist on the upholding of the Constitution, the recognition of the supremacy of the of their Monarch and the Coronation Oath – the full implementation of the law to bring to account those who have engaged in treasonous activities designed to overthrow the peoples democracy and freedoms by surrendering their sovereignty to foreign overlords, and submitting the people to the dictates of a foreign power.

“Treason doth never prosper; what’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. It is right to die for democracy and freedom by them who believe in it, and defend it, as it only right for those who rape and abuse it, should also die”

"Wars are seldom caused by spontaneous hatreds between people, for peoples in general are too ignorant of one another to have grievances and too indifferent to what goes on beyond their borders to plan conquests. The people are urged to the slaughter by politicians who know how to alarm them”

We are living in the most darkest days of our life times, having lived through a world war has kids; seeing our fathers coming back from that war believing that better times would be had for their children. We our selves followed our fathers in defending that democracy that so many died for, and our politicians have over the years, as in our present times have abused and raped for their own lust of greed and power. These Cowards have only just relented to allow a very brave man to stay in the country he defended, because of demand of the people.

Imagine…

It’s very early in the morning on a cold winters day, and you’ve just been awakened by that dammed alarm clock, telling you its time to get up and get ready for work again. Still asleep, you find your self-making tea and toast, as you switch on the radio; it’s a news flash coming over your local radio station that you are listening to…Gaza has just been wiped off the map by a Shahab-4 nuclear missile launched from Iran…”What the fuck”! Comes from your mouth, as you reach for the tuning dial of the radio and search the wavebands for another news station.

Ten minutes later on the BBC news service…a warhead fired from North Korea vaporises downtown Tokyo…the sick feeling in your stomach, and bewilderment in your brain, looking at the clock it shows 0426 hours, and most of Great Britain is still asleep.

Switching on the TV, watching the horrifying footage from local BBC stations, of the carnage that is happening all over England…buildings aflame, people running in panic from the incendiary devices that are exploding and killing people…by the time you are starting to recover from shock, your mind is starting to function, you are getting a grips with your perceptions, you can now understand what the news broadcaster is saying…Pakistan Muslin terrorist are waging all out insurrection against English Christians. Tony Blair and his government as of yet have not given emergency powers to our military and police forces. Opposition members in parliament are demanding Marshall Law by the military…

This is not just an extreme example, but also a serious possibility! Tony Blair and his labour government has not yet made any contingency plans for such an event like these, in fact - Blair keeps silent, looking like a fool, should he communicate on this serious possibility, he no doubt, will talk like the fool he is.

We are living in the most darkest days of our life times, having lived through a world war has kids; seeing our fathers coming back from that war believing that better times would be had for their children. We our selves followed our fathers in defending that democracy that so many died for, and our politicians have over the years, as in our present times have abused and raped for their own lust of greed and power. These Cowards have only just relented to allow a very brave man to stay in the country he defended, because of demand of the people.

Imagine…

It’s very early in the morning on a cold winters day, and you’ve just been awakened by that dammed alarm clock, telling you its time to get up and get ready for work again. Still asleep, you find your self-making tea and toast, as you switch on the radio; it’s a news flash coming over your local radio station that you are listening to…Gaza has just been wiped off the map by a Shahab-4 nuclear missile launched from Iran…”What the fuck”! Comes from your mouth, as you reach for the tuning dial of the radio and search the wavebands for another news station.

Ten minutes later on the BBC news service…a warhead fired from North Korea vaporises downtown Tokyo…the sick feeling in your stomach, and bewilderment in your brain, looking at the clock it shows 0426 hours, and most of Great Britain is still asleep.

Switching on the TV, watching the horrifying footage from local BBC stations, of the carnage that is happening all over England…buildings aflame, people running in panic from the incendiary devices that are exploding and killing people…by the time you are starting to recover from shock, your mind is starting to function, you are getting a grips with your perceptions, you can now understand what the news broadcaster is saying…Pakistan Muslin terrorist are waging all out insurrection against English Christians. Tony Blair and his government as of yet, have not given emergency powers to our military and police forces. Opposition members in parliament are demanding Marshall Law by the military…

This is not just an extreme example, but also a serious possibility! Tony Blair and his labour government has not yet made any contingency plans for such an event like these, in fact - Blair keeps silent, looking like a fool, should he communicate on this serious possibility, he no doubt, will talk like the fool he is.

Continued in Culling the Crow by and Copyright @ Raymond Northgreaves.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at June 1, 2007 06:10 PM

Dear Raymond Northgreaves, Learn how to spell and then we will hear your grievances. I am Former US SF and served and wounded over there. The job over there is tough enough, without people like you criticizing us, without actually being there. I do not condone all of the choices of our leadership, but hey you voted for them. I do thank those still serving their countries trying to do good for all they can. Thank you brothers and sisters in arms for continuing to fight for our countries, our rights and whatever freedoms we now have left, whether they understand or not. Thank you for trying to make a positive difference! -Disabled Vet

Posted by: Former SSgt. JL at May 28, 2007 05:46 PM

I would like to know why we, American Military, are the only ones that play by rules?

Posted by: V. Ciabattari at May 24, 2007 02:38 AM

Posted by: The other other other Max at May 22, 2007 05:05 PM

When did Iraq invade the US and UK – Its people like you who have 'fat' for brains that cause all the unrest in the world and the sooner we get you all of the Planet the better for mankind.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 22, 2007 06:29 PM

I can't believe so many people think this way. If, in fact, the views here are representative of the average American in Iraq, we may as well pack up and go home, because we won't win.

If you're a soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan, you're not fighting a war. You're conducting 'armed social services work' (Kilcullen). If you are unwilling or unable to understand that, you do more harm than good. That's not an armchair strategist talking, incidentally--that's Petraeus and crew talking.

Posted by: The other other other Max at May 22, 2007 05:05 PM

Shades of Vietman again. We also did the same to the British in 1776.

Posted by: Robert Hogan at May 21, 2007 03:36 PM

To Rick Montealvo at May 21, 2007 11:55 AM:

Yes Sir, you are correct and I would not expect them not to. Notwithstanding, western soldiers from the free world and part of the NATO Force are not trained to execute mass murder on civilians - one only has to understand why NATO was formed in the first place.

This strategy of murdering civilians including children to destroy ones enemy is the same tactics that Adams used when in charge of the IRA, and used the same excuses for it; Saddam used the same strategy and our leaders had him ‘hung’ – when is a war crime not a war crime?

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 21, 2007 01:39 PM

Our soliders, and I mean the countrys men and wemon in the armed forces are doing the best they can do. If some people are in dissagreement, remember that our soliders are doing what there trained to do, nothing more.

Posted by: Rick Montealvo at May 21, 2007 11:55 AM

Many serving and ex –serving soldiers in the US Armed Forces are going to be hanged by the neck like Saddam was, for crimes against humanity – in your own words you have been committing these crimes, which now we are to understand is the strategy of your Joint Chiefs of Staff – that also will be the end award for the British who participate in these crimes, starting with the following:

The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation today started the first stage with solicitors in making Tony Blair, his ministers, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff accountable for the murder of British Soldiers in Iraq.

The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation charge Tony Blair with Murder!

The Charge being:

1. Blair’s action in sending the British Forces to Iraq was knowingly unjustified by Blair, in that he lied to the people of our four nations, and in doing so, the British Forces were employed into war under an illegal command.

2. Blair, his government ministers and the Chiefs of Staff of the British Armed Forces are culpable to the deprived indifference to murder.

The British justice system is corrupt, and will not allow us to file charges in a British court against these people. Will an international justice system allow us to bring charges?

As a long term regular soldier with the British Army, I believed that is was acceptable that one may die in the defence of democracy, by all those that believed in it’s process; has I have also believed that it was right for those “bastards” to die that abused and raped it.

What the peoples of the USA and GB have experienced from their so-called leaders is cowardice – both of these deplorable excuses for men, are takers for the lust of greed and power. That is understandable, has only brave men will give.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 19, 2007 07:14 PM

However, I will take your suggestion and study some SunTsu, Patton, and Ghandi.

So far, I just read "The Prince". Has far simpler, though cruel - by today's standards - methods.

Posted by: LRaduca at May 19, 2007 06:31 PM

To: C.M. Fowler
Whaddaya mean "kill em all and bully the remainders"? You can't bully dust, now, can you?

I disagree with the tactic of giving up the objective just because there are civilians around. This way you might as well go home, play some Nintendo.

Posted by: LRaduca at May 19, 2007 06:26 PM

The problem with many of these posts is that you have the armchair warriors, who have seen too many Rambo films and then you have a lot of guys who's opinions of this kind of war are shaped by their experiences in Vietnam.

The real problem is that we need to fight this war differently from how we actually fought it in Vietnam.
On the up side, at least we aren't fighting it the way the British and Russians fought over there. They did the "kill em all and bully the remainders" tactics....THE BRITISH AND RUSSIANS BOTH LOST.

All you "scorched earth" and "kill em all" guys need to take a few lessons from history. Or at least from the history of the region. No invading army has ever won in Afghanistan. NEVER. The Afghanis always repelled them.

Scorched earth does not work there. We have an entrenched enemy who has both supporters and enemies in their own people and what we need to do is to treat each operation, where civilians are in the crossfire, as a surgical strike.
You remove the cancer without killing the patient.
It shows the people there that we are not invaders, but liberators. And to be perfectly honest, I would rather build some friendships in the Middle East than make any more enemies there.

The solution is both easy and difficult.
Easy because the war needs to be fought in a manner closer to a series of counter-terrorist ops; and difficult because it requires our military to stop treating every war with the "kill flies with a sledgehammer" approach and start assessing the tactics of the enemy and adapting our own tactics to match. We always fight the last war. In the Civil War we fought with modern weapons that were ill-suited for Revolutionary war tactics. WWI we used Civil War tactics. WWII we started out using WWI tactics. Korea we used WWII tactics. Vietnam we used a mix of Korean war and adaptive tactics. The adaptive tactics worked better. Unfortunately, our military leadership doesn't like to do that kind of thinking. They are not taught to do so.

We don't need another Sherman over there. We need leadership which is a mix of SunTsu, Patton, and Ghandi. (I know that seems an odd mix, but you can believe that it will work)

Posted by: C.M. Fowler at May 19, 2007 10:43 AM

Here's a more relevent question for Americans to ask our politicians. Why are we giving insurgents better medical care than our own soldiers. I personally have been "Temporarily Medically Retired" for three years while all I needed were two outpatien surgeries and one brief inpatient. I am not stupid and know that I am only one of many(hence the length of time for the V.A. to get of their rumps). I have been trained in four MOS's and aside from my pending surgeries am in great shape. Send me back to Iraq and let one of the newly wed seventeen year olds come home for awhile!

Posted by: Iraq vet at May 19, 2007 01:55 AM

S. Peterson, You are totally correct and this country needs more men that think like you do. The phrase "War is hell" was coined for a reason and though it is not pleasant it is necessary if we are going to win against an insurgent enemy. We were not the ones to put the civilian populas in jeapordy, therefor we should not concern ourselves with their well being at the cost of our men and women.

Posted by: L.J. Berreman at May 18, 2007 08:53 PM

Imprisoned Without Trial or Charges
« Thread Started on Nov 5, 2005, 11:22am »

Ex regular English soldiers have been taken from their homes by Blair’s Labour government’s Secret police, and there is now concern for their safety – their location is not know. Political and Defence Editors of the Sun and Times newspapers were not interested in this kidnapping of English Subjects!

CIA Concentration Camp!
Thread Started on Nov 28, 2005, 6:18am »

Spokesperson from ARM said, “Our two comrades were extracted from the CIA concentration camp located deep inside East Germany Friday, 25 November 2005 at 1232 hrs Zulu, and both were in very bad health after the inhumane interrogation treatment they underwent, however they are now in safe medical care in a European country. Family and friends are near to them”. When asked if they had much opposition to getting them out, the spokesperson said, “at first yes, and a fire fight was had, inflicting casualties, and some we understand were fatal for those that were guarding the camp, as for our task force, some minor wounds, that’s all. We were stopped from neutralizing our aim; they put a ‘whitey’ up, and started the hand over of our people – on seeing the condition of them, it was very hard to stop the men from killing these CIA bastards”. On asking haw it was done, and with what finances they had to do this, the reply was “We are a professional organisation, all ex – regular Army and Air Force, of no less then 12 years each – we documented the operation on video cam and will be shown on the ‘Colours’ net at the week end, and on other sites by sound only” When can we talk to the tow vets, “when they are well, and if they want you to, that’s all” – “one other point, all at the camp were a mixed bag of nationals, and there are many more in the camp being held” Why did you not help them, “they are nothing to do with us”!

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 18, 2007 07:26 PM

I understand the problems of seperating friends from enemy. But the enemy raises ther kids to hate and kill. Ther is no choice. If ther with the enemy they.re a target.

Posted by: Sgt.K Vietnam at May 18, 2007 04:51 PM

I can't believe some of these comments, it's scary enough you guys think this way but say it/write it the F down blows my mind.

So the only solution is scorched earth/kill them all let Allah sort them out?

Let's look at a few of the doozies:

Bo - "the individuals who remained in the area for whatever reason were either participants or victims of their own bad judgement, somewhat like those who chose to remain in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina" Choose? These people cannot just jump in the SUV and go to the Motel 6, whether in NOLA or Kabul you bonehead.

Big Sarge - "The USMC unit was under fire in an ambush. SOP in an ambush...keep firing until you break contact!" So we don't bother teaching fire disicpline to our Marines anymore? Spray and pray? What happened to one shot one kill? Chesty Puller is doing 20,000 rpms in Arlington right now.

Exspook - "What we need is another Grant/Sherman/Sheridan type commander who knew that you CANT 'win' an occupation - whatever you call it - unless you completely render the enemies' infrastructure incapable of sustaining resistance." Again with the scorched earth, goooood plan.

Fritz - "So who are the people out there when then bad guys are out up to no good? Bingo! thats right, they are bad guys too. Kids being taught the islamic ka-boom way and and others that are there to see Americans die" So there are no civilians, back to the kill 'em all plan.

So genocide and salt the earth is the solution. Got it.

Posted by: Grandjester at May 18, 2007 04:00 PM

It is better to eradicate your enemies completely than to allow them to bite you in the ass later. In closing, has any one heard of Carthage offending any one since Rome did what was right and needed?

mr peterson the list of people who think that way is both lengthy and pretty much universally reviled. adolf , mao and pol pot being just a few who come to mind along with that renowned good old boy joseph stalin. is that the kind of company you want your country to keep?

i'm also kind of curious as to what would make you think the roman extirmination of carthage was the right thing to do? hannibal's crew certainly had plenty of chances to run amok in italy and i don't remember reading about any of that sort of thing yet you celebrate the extirmination of carthage as a righteous thing.

Posted by: Brian McDonald at May 18, 2007 03:23 PM

The mindless ones are so ready to kill and murder - are they also ready to die? I think not!

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 18, 2007 02:13 PM

"It is well that war is so horrible, or we should grow too fond of it." -Robert E. Lee

Apparently it isn't horrible enough. To risk sounding heartless, I'll point out nonetheless that, non-combatant casualties, friendly-fire incidents and sadly enough your occasional war crime; have been embedded in warfare for thousands of years. I feel that we delude ourselves, or even fall victim to the politicizing of warfare, when we react with shock upon hearing of civilian casualties.

If war isn't seen for the scourge that it truly is, then it will ALWAYS be a means to an end for ANY and ALL political leaders. If we keep treating the dogs of war like we can control them and they'll only destroy who we want, we'll always be disappointed, war will always be a losing affair for us. We'd better start getting it right.

Posted by: Jonnie at May 18, 2007 02:01 PM

I hear 2 things 3.8 billion dollar glass idea is too expensive for humvees and apcs gunners for troops armour upgrades. However I hear darpa is working on a modification I found in wireds magazines gadgets labs that there is a modification to the cornershot and the sea whiz technology. The gunner sits in the apc or humvee and the gun spins and identifys insurgents vs kids or birds flying for example. The gunner , when needed confirms the shot and fires the gun remote access inside the armours safety net to minimize flanking capabilities by insurgengy guirilla tactics. This will level out the playing feild without robotics unless the eod bots are searching for efps or ifps. Insurgents will have to decide if they want to get auto picked by the seawhiz detect and fire sniper rifle mounts or mobile missle cannon mounts . The objective will eliminate hostage situations with sniper rifles mounted ... Look out taliban we are watching you.

Posted by: Max Anderson at May 18, 2007 01:55 PM

When asked why he waged war on women and children, Custer responded, to paraphrase, nits make fleas. Those children will one day grow to adulthood, some seeking vengeance for perceived and real outrages. I spent time with Ronald Regan's merry men in Central America in the early 80s, changing minds one round at a time. If we accept the premise set forth by Thomas Jefferson that government derives its power from the governed they we must accept that there are no, repeat no illegitimate targets every one is fair game. To assume there is civility in a fire fight is naive and potentially \ dangerous to those with such notions. It is better to eradicate your enemies completely than to allow them to bite you in the ass later. In closing, has any one heard of Carthage offending any one since Rome did what was right and needed?

Posted by: S. Peterson at May 18, 2007 01:47 PM

What my old buddies and I find very difficult to conceive is why Bush and Blair are so ready to kill and murder people from other sovereign nations on the pretence that they are defending the free world from terrorist when the US government funded Irish IRA terrorist to kill and murder subjects from the UK, and Blair’s labour parties government condoned these murders because they are the Roman Catholic labour party. Both our nations soldiers are the instruments of plutocratic greed who manipulate our politicians by corrupted handouts to safe guard their lust of power. You soldiers who serve these politicians do not serve your nations people; you have the hand of death and shame on you and no better then the NAZI who murdered in the second world war. Lift this shame from you and GROUND ARMS – Come back home, amongst you own people. Should your life be in danger take up arms to defend your selves and your comrades, has if your country and its peoples are in threat of that same danger, and not until.

Posted by: Raymond Northgreaves at May 18, 2007 12:13 PM

What we need is another Grant/Sherman/Sheridan type commander who knew that you CANT 'win' an occupation - whatever you call it - unless you completely render the enemies' infrastructure incapable of sustaining resistance.

Sad but true - this conflict - and others like it - have nothing to do with achieving military success. Klowsowitz was a boob. There is nothing 'political' about this conflict - it's all about economics. Is that what our fighting forces are for?

Posted by: Exspook at May 18, 2007 10:46 AM

THIS IS NOT A NEW SITUATION THE RULES OF WAR CHANGED AFTER WWII AND TERRORIST, COMMUNIST HIDING AMONG CIVILIANS BECAME FAR MORE COMMON THAT IMAGINED. THESE PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS NOT SOLDIERS OR MILITARY AND WHEN ENGAGING THEM THE DAMAGE WILL NOT BE JUST PROPERTY BUT CIVILIANS AS WELL. AS COWARDLY AS THESE THUGS ARE THE THEY WILL CLAIM THAT CIVILIANS ARE KILLED UNDER ANY ENGAGEMENT CIRCUMSTANCE TO GAIN SOME FORM OF SYMPATHY REGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH.

HIPPIES STILL SUCK, COMMUNIST ALWAYS LIE AND A TERRORIST WILL KILL ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME FOR ANY REASON. AXIOMS YOU CAN BANK ON.

Posted by: ontime at May 18, 2007 10:42 AM

From my experience in Central America in the '80's, in most of our engagements with guerillas, children and teens where involved actually firing at us. Of course, at 100-200 meters it was hard to tell who was firing the AK
or sniping with the Dragunov. But when we would go check the body count it was 13-16 year old kids. What most haunts me to this day was some were girls! The cowardly commanders where rarely found. However, a 13 year old with a weapon can kill you just as dead as the 40 year old seasoned professional. So I don't care when I hear our guys killed some civies. They were probably collaborators or family of insurgents.

Posted by: Frank Fernandez at May 18, 2007 09:07 AM

That's the difference between a professional soldier and them(Taliban/AQ). However, there are no excuses when civilians are being hit a mile after an ambush..Period.
The minute that we stop looking at children for what they are, We become no better than those seeking shelter between them. Yes, they are being taught to hate us, by making the US troops. foreign invaders, kafir and infidels...but in the same token if we spare them, show compassion and keep on bombarding them with comforts..Point out to them that the koran requires it, its in the surah's to spare the children and women, point out to the them that the taliban are not following the teaching of the Prophet. (Know your enemy,what he eats,breaths and belief.)
Just because a person can read and recite the Koran doesnt meant he/she comprehends it,any of it or fully. The twisted religious leaders take advantage of this, tells them their sick personal Islam not the real one. Most suicide bombers are failed individuals in their professional or personal lives. psycologically challenge and selected by this recruiters for those reasons and give them a way to end their personal pain,tarnish lives and earn a path to "Paradise" ( People view the world as they are,not as the world is)

Someone dead, its someone father,son,brother and husband. fertile ground for a recruiter, Just approach the family and point out the recent atrocities committed by US or alliance..Bingo! Dont give them more reasons.. During Op Just Cause(Panama), the "dignity battalion" was indoctrinate to belief that the US troops were coming to kill all who oppose the yankee imperialism. (By the mouths of the EPW's). this is 2 hrs flight south from Miami in a democratic society) Now imagine the middle east.

There will always be casualties of war and the truth will always come out 1,2,10 years..it doesnt matter. Specially, now the age of the internet and digital realm.

Its a hard job, but you are professional,volunteer and red blooded American fighting man/woman.

Posted by: mel at May 18, 2007 08:08 AM

Now lets see... You are fighting an enemy that does not respect ANY life,they beat their women, and screws their little boys and attack civilian targets. They do not care one I-ode about kids getting killed. When I was in Iraq, all the good people(allegedly good) would be off the streets when they knew the bad guys were out. So who are the people out there when then bad guys are out up to no good? Bingo! thats right, they are bad guys too. Kids being taught the islamic ka-boom way and and others that are there to see Americans die. The United States goes out of the way to NOT kill or target civilians, even at the cost of the mission and American lives. We hand out food, and water and lots of money. You know, to win the hearts and minds of the natives. Meanwhile we now have over 3000 of Americas finest killed and scores more wounded. We let bad guys go, pay them, give them their arms back, can't attack them where they are, and don't prevent them from coming across the borders. Enough is enough. The price of war will always be paid in blood, fight like you are allowed to win, the hearts and minds will follow when you get the bad guys out of there.
Sgt. 3/5 Marines

Posted by: Fritz at May 18, 2007 07:07 AM

The article, trying to applaud the SF unit, while attempting to cast fault on the USMC unit fails miserably. The SF unit had the time for target selection via photographs to decide to engage. The USMC unit was under fire in an ambush. SOP in an ambush...keep firing until you break contact! The Talaban know how sensitive our wishy-washy nation is to deaths of children, etc., so why do you think these cowards hide behind them? There is a whole new set of rules out there that we seem to have not got the memorandum on...the terrorists do not seem to have any qualms torturing, killing and maiming innocents but whgere is the outcry then?

Posted by: Big Sarge at May 18, 2007 04:15 AM

What the average person doesn't understand, is that when you are hit by an ambush and/or IED (as the highly traine marine unit was) the "close-quarter" scenario characterized by very contolled and precision engagements(which these type units excell at) does not exist. I speak from personal experience. At times like this, the first priority should be to return effective overwhelming fire at the enemy with all available weapons systems in order to save the lives of the members of your unit.This is a commo sense choice, and a matter of personal survival.Due to the capabilities of the vehicle mounted crew served weapons utilized in these engagements(.50 caliber, 40mm high exposives, 7.62) and the rate of fire these systems are capable of, collateral damage is an unfortunate but all too often occurence, regardless of the level of training of the operator. If the barbaric killers who chose to engage our brave servicemembers had exercised a little more caution and common sense by not initiating an offensive operation in an area populated by innocent civilians(who they claim to be protecting the interests of), this tragedy would have been prevented.If in fact the enemy had put the word out regarding the attack prior to its initiation, the individuals who remained in the area for whatever reason were either participants or victims of their own bad judgement, somewhat like those who chose to remain in New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. If such a "public service message" was not provided, the resposibility in my opinion is shifted ENTIRELY to the terrorists.

Posted by: Bo at May 18, 2007 03:47 AM

Yes, our intel probably has better optics than that shown but it does very little good for the average ground troops. I personally have been shot at by a chid before and find thier aim to be just as if not better than an adults, shaky nervous hand. ROE should reflect the fact that a child is not a non-combatant just because of age. My last roommate before my retirement was critically injured by a child with better aim than the one I was forced to "return fire" at. If intel was all it took to seperate them like a sheep dog than that would be great but for now all we can do is try to minimize casualties and bad press.

Posted by: Iraq vet at May 18, 2007 02:35 AM

The American soldiers, sailor, airman and marine are the most compassionate men in the world. Are there a few bad apples...yes but for the most part, they love and protect children. You can believe what you want but these are the men who threw candy to the German kids during the Berlin airlift and adopted Vietnamese children during and after that brutal war. During WWII, they gave me candy through wire fences on Long Island before the embarked for Europe. Thank God for these brave men. God knows where they come from in time of crisis. My prayers and support go with every one of them especially those who have left their families behind. Unless you have walked in their shoes, don't criticize even though your right to do so is being upheld by their sacrifice.

Posted by: Bob at May 18, 2007 01:24 AM

Posted by: Bob at May 18, 2007 01:19 AM

What a load of unspeak that was,showing how carefull and loving troops are so as not to kill civvies, totally a PR exercise its got to be.

Posted by: boggit at May 17, 2007 11:21 PM

Dean Ob,
It's SOP to blur images before releasing them to the public. It prevents you from knowing their resolution capabilities and, consequently, what of yours they can and can't see. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the actual imagery is classifed TS for that reason. It's one thing to know that your enemy can perform aerial surveillance; it's another to not know whether or not he can tell what you're doing.

Posted by: rutty at May 17, 2007 08:08 PM

What bunk. I don't see much of anything recognizable, let alone people. If you're telling me that from pictures like these you can pick out not just people, but distinguish between combatants, civilians, children, oh yeah, and you can also tell which one is the boss? Yeah right. I call BS. If IMINT really is this good, this whole war should have been over long ago.

Posted by: Dean Ob at May 17, 2007 05:40 PM

Wembley, they just said that because they didn't kill civilians and identified the terrorists, that tribal leaders took action and not only took out terrorsts, but it likely made them view Nato in a better light.

I think that pretty much is the opposite of what you said.

Posted by: geedeck at May 17, 2007 09:12 AM

Unfortunately there are no bonus points for NOT killing civilians, you only get negative points if you do - which is causing an increasing problem with maintianing public support in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Wembley at May 17, 2007 07:32 AM

Picking the Killers from the Kids

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