Defense Tech received a video clip released by the Army showing part of its May 2006 test shoot on Dragon Skin. The video is purported to be from the vest “M-01-Front” shot (if you’re following along in the Army briefing document, it’s on page 12 and shows an x-ray of the back panel penetration with the front, back and side shot profiles) in which the second shot had a complete penetration.
You’ll see the HP White staffers mounting the vest on the bracket, then Pinnacle President Murray Neal inspecting the mounting. Two shots are fired, and then the vest is removed to inspect the shot in the clay backing.
After the vest is removed, the curved clay backing representing the exact area of ESAPI coverage can be seen, and photos are taken by another ballistics expert hired by the Army for the test, Jim Zheng. This belies Neal’s contention that the Dragon Skin was tested on “non-rifle defeating areas.”
Notice the first shot is on the edge, as the ESAPI FAT test protocols call for, and shows a deep indentation – though it is unclear whether that back face deformation is within ESAPI specs. The second shot, just up and to the right of the first, is the complete penetration. You can see Neal come in and inspect the hole and the HP White engineers dig the round out.
This is not on the high-heat tested vest Neal claims had an “adhesive anomaly.”
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Posted by: aoc gold at May 18, 2008 04:02 AM
Pinnacle now has to see soon to be Level IV + X-SAPI I created .....MAPA I call it. Modular Armor Plate Attachment.
Posted by: Chris T at December 31, 2007 02:49 PM
New form of X-SAPI is soon to be Public from CBA...Modular and far advanced of any SAPI or ESAPI out on market today. This is revolutionary and already proven 7.62x39 AP and 7.62x54R AP tested and passed.
Posted by: Chris T at December 31, 2007 02:47 PM
Bottom line Dragon Skin has it's purpose in many critical situations. However as of this Holiday What I tewsted as a new form of Body Armor plate
has now been downsized and tested at 7.62x39mm Armor pierciong rounds with excellent results. It will be tested with 7.62x54R Ap rounds and 30.06 APM2. If it goes then a whole new form of X-SAPI on mY terms not any military or Government or any
Company can dictate how it is built or too much weight ..Why becasue the science to build it is Solid State and it can be built to any size. I can make them 4"x4" or 4ft x4ft . 12x12 " will come in at 6 to 7 lbs and stop multiple hits from all Level IV rounds due to design. Added part is they are Modular and strong attachment to current vests.
Posted by: Chris T at December 31, 2007 02:44 PM
This is a realy late comment. I was in the process of clearing out old stuff and happened to pull this "test" up. I don't know if anyone else did a frame by frame on this video. I know they did a good job of holding the date=time index. I wondered why the cuts in the video, so I checked closer - a frame by frame. There are problems!
Frames before and after the blackouts don't match. I always get sceptical when they are in CYA mode. The balistic matterial before and after are way different, the impacked indentations are different, I just don't think this video is of value.
Posted by: JMMC62 at September 19, 2007 10:13 AM
Why test with 5.56. Thats our ammo and it's quite a bit smaller than their 7.62. In my eyes, the test is invalid.
Posted by: Randy at June 13, 2007 03:30 AM
Christian,
Isn't there something you can do to pull jerk off posts making lewd sexual comments off the posting??
Anyway I am done posting go here for our statement about DS and the IBA debate:
http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html
Any constructive criticism or positive feedback is welcomed and should be directed to info@evolutionarmor.com
Posted by: Allan D. Bain at June 1, 2007 01:40 PM
Perhaps they should make a lightweight, flexible and working level 4 armor before investing more time and money in a project with no real world use and more TV shows..
Posted by: Dave at May 31, 2007 10:42 AM
Check out Pinnacle's Level 5 body armor!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnfHhRl7U0
this is no joke, see for yourself!
Posted by: patriot at May 28, 2007 10:34 AM
I got the answer on another forum from Karl Masters. He stated that any first shot penetration is a vest failure. And even though 6 vest had penetrations 4 had 1st shot penetrations. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14523&page=5 Pretty interesting stuff about how the tests are constantly improving and what they doing to currently to make the tests better. Honestly most if not all of my concerns about the armies test are pretty much cleared up. Now about dragon skin I think the concept is probably the future but the discs must be secured better with weaving, glue, or pouches and even then there is that second shot failure at ambient temperature, that wasn't even a failure in the army test but It is the first time there is an ambient test of DS failing in the first few shots.
Posted by: txzen at May 24, 2007 11:11 PM
I asked on another forum but maybe some of you know the answer. Why does the .pdf say 4 of 8 tests failed when only 2 tests were passed, the 60 degree test had 0 failures and the salt water test had 0 failures? It would seem that 6 out of 8 vests had penetrations and even one of the "successes," the 60 below 0 test there where no penetrations were but the discs seem really discombobulated after the testing. There is some weird stuff there or maybe I just missed something.
Posted by: txzen at May 24, 2007 03:09 PM
Sorry I don't buy that. They show quite clearly afterward where the "penetrations" where in relation to the vest, and they've banned DS from active units. I don't see what in that 4-minute gap could be giving the Insurgents any more info than they already got.
Posted by: Moose at May 24, 2007 11:42 AM
"For my own $.02: Wonder what's with the 4-minute gap in the vid?"
Probably to protect those that are wearing it now. The Insurgents learned how to find the weak points of interceptor.. and started training snipers to do so....
What about the 'Trojan Armour' by Troy Hurtubise? I'm shocked no one is asking questions about it...
Posted by: Foreign.Boy at May 23, 2007 11:26 PM
From AVweek's Ares:
Philip Coyle, the Pentagon's former chief tester and a consultant in the NBC News investigation into Dragon Skin body armor, says he's not convinced by the Army's defense of its Interceptor system over the past few days. Coyle, a senior adviser at the Center for Defense Information, observed NBC News' side-by-side tests of Dragon Skin and Interceptor at a ballistics laboratory in Germany. He observed the tests pro bono after a request from NBC News.
Coyle said in a telephone interview with Ares last night that the Army's PowerPoint slide was "misleading" in its comparison of body coverage between the Army's Interceptor and Dragon Skin manufactured by Pinnacle Armor. The Army banned soldiers from buying Dragon Skin last year. Coyle said he had his own private briefing of the Dragon Skin testing by one of Brig. Gen. Mark Brown's senior staff members and was told the Inteceptor's body coverage was compared to Dragon Skin without the plates that actually provide the protection. Brown heads the Army office charged with selecting body armor.
"What’s the point of that?" Coyle said. "A fair comparison would measure how much coverage each of the vests gave you. The disadvantage of the Army’s system is there are gaps in the front and back and sides where bullets can get through. Pinnacle's armor covers whole torso."
The Army is launching a full defense of its Interceptor system, and has released a PowerPoint slide on its own testing of Dragon Skin, which the Army asserts failed 13 out of 48 shots last year. "Force protection is the No. 1 priority of the U.S. Army," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown during an Army press briefing. "Our soldiers and marines today have the best body armor in the world, bar none. It is live fire tested and it is proven in combat."
Coyle said he has asked for a copy of the Army's actual test results rather than just the PowerPoint slide the Army has released and was told the request, which he had to submit in writing, is being processed up the chain of command. "There are PowerPoint briefings and there are PowerPoint briefings," Coyle said. He was also not convinced by the Army's weight comparisons between the two vests. The Army says the Dragon Skin vest is 19.5 pounds heavier than the Interceptor, an assertion Pinnacle Armor disputes and Coyle said wasn't apparent during the NBC News tests in Germany.
"I know that’s what the Army says," said Coyle. "And they had quite a convincing display of that [during the press conference]."
I've been trying to give the Army the benefit of the doubt on its Dragon Skin tests, but the skepticism of someone as qualified and respected as Coyle and the refusal of the Army to reconsider side-by-side testing makes me wonder. I've been bothered by Brig. Gen. Brown's response to NBC News reporter Lisa Myers question about side-by-side testing since Sunday night. When asked whether the Army would do side-by-side testing, Brown just said that the Army doesn't do side-by-side testing but "tests to a standard." Well fine, but NBC News tested both vests to the Army's standard and Inteceptor came up short. The Army's tests of Dragon Skin were a full year ago. Maybe it's improved? It sure looked that way in the NBC News tests.
In any case, no one is saying Interceptor doesn't provide good protection. Both Coyle and retired Army Gen. Wayne Downing, another observer, said the Interceptor performed well during the NBC News tests. It's just that Dragon Skin was better, particularly in reducing blunt force trauma, which can kill even if a bullet doesn't actually penetrate the vest.
"The Pinnacle Armor has some advantages that I saw during the tests in Germany that the Army ought to be interested in," said Coyle. He cited five advantages of Dragon Skin over Interceptor:
1. It's flexibility better conforms to the contours of the human body, which is particularly important for female soldiers.
2. It covers more of the torso.
3. Dragon Skin is better with multiple shots.
4. Dragon Skin reduces blunt force trauma. Coyle says the depth of cavities caused in the test clay by shots fired at Dragon Skin were half as deep as the cavities caused in the clay during the Interceptor test. (Coyle says both vests were tested in the same way to Army standards against curved clay backings despite assertions to the contrary making their way through the blogosphere.)
5. Dragon Skin performed better against some of the more deadly ammunition being used in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The report has the attention of Congress.
Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-MI) and Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) sent a letter yesterday to Defense Secretary Robert Gates requesting that the Pentagon's director of operational test and evaluation -- Coyle's old job -- conduct a technical assessment of body armor systems currently available on the domestic market. The senators question the "fairness and reliability" of the Army's tests. Separately, Sens. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) and James Webb (D-VA) sent their own letter to the General Accountability Office requesting an assessment of the Interceptor against Dragon Skin and any other commercially available body armor.
--Catherine MacRae Hockmuth
For my own $.02: Wonder what's with the 4-minute gap in the vid?
Posted by: Moose at May 23, 2007 10:06 PM
In the business that is called a "Smoking Hole"!
Usually the clay is heated from the energy of the bullet so that the oil in the clay vaporizes and actually smokes. There is a lot of smoke if using API ammo.
Posted by: William at May 23, 2007 09:58 PM
They still haven't made it easy, page 12 of the pdf has x rays from m-01 BACK and this video is of m-01 front? I don't know about the m-01 part for sure but the the video looks like the front of the vest with the extra room cut out at the armpits so you can hold you arms out in front of you and the black patch in the middle is on the front right? If they are going to release video couldn't it correspond with some of the x rays they also released released? Seriously I like the attempts at more disclosure but why so much patchy information release x rays with video that correspond to those x rays.
Posted by: txzen at May 23, 2007 05:24 PM
Time to Pony Up. It looks like there is only one way to settle this... put the CEO's for Dragon Skin & Interceptor down range wearing their respective body armor to be tested. The one who runs, faints, or incurs the greatest wound... fails.
.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=moXAB2YsYRU
.
Well, maybe that's a bit much.
.
This reminds me... Has anyone produced a set of armor to log/transmit impact, penetration, & blast data? I know Zephyr created Smart Fabric, but I'm not aware of anyone having incorporated it yet. Someday your body armor will call a MedEvac for you... And your fridge will order your groceries...eh... someday. :\
.
http://www.zephyrtech.co.nz/?action=page&id=10033
Posted by: Camp at May 23, 2007 04:19 PM
Read the YouTube Description:
"This is a video clip released by the Army showing the Motor Oil test of Dragon Skin in May, 2006."
Well I'm convinced now that dragon skin isn't the best choice for the regular forces... I still think it's a good product otherwise.
If they can't figure out how to extend the shelf life of the body armour... then it's not going to do the army any good having 'glass slippers' for body armour.
Posted by: Foreign.Boy at May 23, 2007 01:31 PM
Hopefully this video will calm the debates. I think it makes it very clear.
Also I am all for giving the soldiers the best equipment but they still need to be able to do their jobs. I am sure a suit could be constructed that would stop every round out there anywhere on your body. The problem is the thing would weight a few hundred pounds and the soldier could not move. It is all about finding the correct balance.
Posted by: Mark at May 23, 2007 12:46 PM
what's the debate?
it doesn't work and it's to heavy.
the logic of many smaller plates (DS)is precisely its' downside..they are made to be flexible, which means, they flex (move) when struck. You move them, you got gaps. period.
here's a thought though, wouldn't it be easier to simply stay out of the line of fire? hey?
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