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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Pressure Mounts to Compete the M4

In the continuing debate over whether the current version of the M4 carbine should be replaced, some lawmakers are keeping pressure on the Army to take another look at their standard-issued rifle.

pointing-soldier-web.jpg

In a series of letters to top Army officials, Sen. Tom Coburn, a Republican from Oklahoma who has no small arms makers in his state, asked a simple question to the new, acting Army secretary Pete Geren: “Is the M4 the best rifle in the world?”

The letter, written May 16, is the latest attempt by the first-term Senator to force the Army to look at new rifle technologies that could make life a lot easier for Soldiers and other troops who use the compact M4 as their primary weapon. Coburn does not sit on any armed service-related committees.

As most DT readers already know, the M4 in its current state uses a gas-operated system to eject a spent round and load another. That system – without going into the minute details – is said to be prone to malfunctions unless it is meticulously cleaned. That’s hard to do in harsh, talcum-sand environments like Iraq and Afghanistan and can be extremely time consuming.

New (at least in infantry weapons) gas-piston operating system designs are much less prone to fouling, operators say, and can be retrofitted to current weapons at relatively low cost.

The congressional pressure is mounting, a Senate source tells Defense Tech, to withhold funds in the 2008 Defense Authorization bill to buy $375 million in M4s for new Army Brigade Combat Teams from Colt Defense until the Army holds an evaluation of these new rifle systems. Candidate weapons include the FN-made SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle, the HK 416 (which is popular with special operations forces) and Colt’s gas-piston version of the M4, appropriately dubbed the “M5.”

Competition-backers in the Senate aren’t optimistic that they can insert language into the budget markup, but are planning to take their argument to the floor of the Senate when the final bill comes up for a vote. The senate source said Air/Land forces subcommittee chairman, Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), is resisting the competition bill language.

Colt Defense is based in West Hartford, Conn.

The Army has also resisted changing course on the M4, saying back in late March that the carbine has “been improved numerous times and employs the most current technology available on any rifle/carbine in general use today.”

That seems to be at odds with what the Army’s most elite soldiers (and other special ops forces, for that matter) really want. But as the body armor debate heats back up again and lawmakers show a greater willingness to have the services explore – and pay for – new approaches to everyday equipment, we’ll see if the Army takes another look at the Soldier’s most important piece of equipment.

-- Christian

Comments

Been carrying and shooting assault weapons and various military weapons around the world for about 22 years now. Regardless of what anyone says or the treacherous deeds and politics of weapons procurment there are certain things that are true. The following is a list of requirements for a assault rifle that would produce a weapon better than the M4 /M16:
Caliber-take the 7.62X39 and neck it down to 6.5mm and put a 100grain bullet on it. This would outperform the 5.56 at all ranges. Outperform 7.62X39 on all counts except penetration through dense vegetation. 7.62 nato is bigger than necessary. This would also allow the use of a subsonic 156 grain bullet allowing silenced operation.
It must weigh less than 7lb unloaded w/o optic.
It must have a telescoping stock to compensate for body armor and various clothing. The stock must also side fold for concealing underneath your arm under a overcoat, in vehicles, or for jumping.
It must have a effective compensator that doesn't make you quickly permanently deaf if you have to shoot without hearing protection and allows mounting a suppressor. This compensator will also have wire cutter that the bayonet interfaces with....(yeah I hear the new kids whining about not needing a bayonet..IF the Army gave you a nice double edge spear point bayonet with a 8" blade better than the m7 and smaller lighter than the M9 you would probably like it and carry it.
The barrel will be long enough to allow 2700 FPS.
The barrel will be chrome lined.
The barrel will have polygonal rifling if it is accurate enough.
The chamber will be fluted.
The barrel will have a cleaning rod underneath for clearing obstructions/jams in a emergency when you don't have your cleaning kit.
The front site will be at the end of the barrel allowing maximum distance between sites lesseneing the effect of site alignment error. It will have "wings" to protect it like a m4. Not a globe.
Handguards will cover the length of the barrel so your not burning your hands on the barrel.
Polymers like used in the glock will be used in recievers provided they are strong enough to physically beat a man to death with the weapon and not break it.
All steel will be stainless.
Finish will be a brown paint of some type.
It will have standard rail systems to mount the latest accessories that come along.
It will have Battery box in the stock with a 1/2" tube leading to the front of the weapon. The batt/box will use 3V photo bat's like in the surefire light. The box will have staged power outs for 3,6,9,12 V output. the weapon will have negative ground and Positive power wires for accessories will run through the tube to the front of the weapon. This way Batteries in the back will offset the weight forward of the accessories. This will also allow lighter weight accessories and a better balanced weapon.
Magazines will tilt and lock in like a AK47. (it is just as fast as a M4 if you don't have to slap it to be sure). Magazines will be made of Aluminum like a m16 mag. They will not have a waffle pattern that prohibits them from sliding out of a mag pouch.
The safety will be activated with the trigger finger so lesser disciplined troops will keep their finger on the safety and not on the trigger.
There will be a spring loaded thumb lever that when depressed enables full auto. There will not be a 3 round burst.
The trigger will be crisp and trigger pull will be less than 5.5lb.
The bolt carrier will have a bolt handle that reciprocates similar to Galil for left or right hand use. This stops the need for a forward assist and allows a soldier to manually work the action and still have a effective weapon.
The extractor will be large and powerful like the M249 saw.
The ejector will be a fixed machined part of the weapon like a SKS.
The locking system will be a Tilt/locker like a FAL or SKS, or it will be a rotating system with no more than 2 large locking lugs.
The barrel will have a threaded barrel extension containing locking mechanism so headspace can be adjusted by threading and tightening locking nuts. No need for precision machined reciever, or shoulder lugs.

AT all cost, no attempt whatsoever will be made to make it stylish, or appeal to women or europeans. It also will not be given any cool/silly names to make it sound cool. Coolness will be determined by the reduction of body temperature produced by the enemy.
OK so that's almost all of my good IDeas on how to make the best rifle for the soldier that can be made now with current technology in less than 2 years. So someone please go do it

Posted by: rob at June 10, 2007 09:59 PM


Templeton Peck - Nice post btw. That's a good deal of info, quite nicely summed up.

Anyways, my point was to state that there are problems with issues of so called "upgrades" or "redesigns" that are meant to go without a glitch.

The design and implementation of new components into older designs (that were not built to work in this method) generally ends up costing as much money as designing and implementing a new weapon.

Coming from an engineering angle, the structure is likely to be acting differently, with different stresses. Also, wear will happen in new areas etc.

So, when you think you have ironed out all the problems, you introduce a new one. And problems are never cheap (especially when lives are concerned - even from an economical aspect 1 jam could equal at least whatever it is currently being paid out to the dependant family for a death or serious injury).

Total cost of a redesign will indeed be much more on the outset, but then again, there are many good designs out there that have only the supply and demand problem to have sorted.

Posted by: Vstress at May 29, 2007 07:12 AM


I'd like to add my comments about the M16/M4.
(sorry for the length)

Most of the those who post opinions about the rifle really don’t have an understanding of the history, The inventor (Eugene Stoner) or even of the technical workings of it’s gas-system for that matter.

I would like to share what I have learned after studying this topic for nearly 20 yrs.
First off, Stoner was more than just a talented small-arms designer. He was, in fact considered a genius…something which is NOT in dispute, by those who have known him and/or been closely associated with him.

For those who don’t realize it, because of the unique nature of the gas-system, Stoner was NOT about to submit his AR-15 without first being satisfied that he would be able to find a propellant to perform as he specified. He knew, with absolute clarity, that you couldn’t just use any type of powder and expect it to perform
the same. It was essential that it had to have specific characteristics.

Now, to the detractors who constantly malign his gas-system, let me try to enlighten you a bit, if I may (And yes, I WILL admit that a piston-system will remain cleaner than direct-gas).

I submit that very few have actually observed just HOW the gas travels into the bolt area in the first place. No, it doesn’t ‘blow’ hot gases into the chamber or directly against the bolt face, as some of those have claimed. The whole purpose of the ‘gas’ is to merely unlock the bolt, which simultaneously causes the bolt-carrier to begin it’s movement to the rear…(and once unlocked, the force from the discharge of
the round takes over and the bolt-carrier continues into the buffer).

Once the gas enters into the ‘key’, it’s directed into the REAR of the bolt (behind the bolt rings…completely away from the chamber and bolt face), where it expands, causing the rearward motion of the bolt-carrier and thus acting on the cam-pin to cause the bolt to finally pivot and unlock the lugs from the chamber. Once the gas expands in the small tight area behind the bolt, the gas get’s expelled out the sides of the small ‘holes’ (ports) on the side of the bolt-carrier itself. The gas does NOT remain inside the bolt assembly…and yes, there is residue that it does leave, but wasn’t
an issue at all back in the early days when Stoner was using his much cleaner burning IMR stick powder, the powder it was designed to use in the first place… (and, Stoner never fore-saw this as ever being an issue because he never suspected his weapon ever being used with anything other than the IMR powder!).

After all, if it was such a troubling aspect of the whole setup, do you think Colt would’ve risked it and purchased the rights to it back in 59/60’? (The military, naturally wasn’t at all ready, being currently ‘married’ to Springfield Armory…of which I’ll speak about in a minute).

Speaking on the HK416 for a moment (and granted, it will remain cleaner due to a ‘piston’…), let me hypothesize here. Suppose the 416 has just finished off a mag (bolt-carrier now locked ‘open’ to the rear) and the soldier drops it, allowing a few grams of sand into the breech and chamber. How is the HK’s piston system any better at this point than the M4’s? It’s not! You’re STILL going to have to take care that dirt and sand don’t enter into that area!

I for one can appreciate the simplicity and at the same time complexity of this system. It is so Logical! To me, the whole ‘piston’ design is an antiquated system, where a ‘rod’ is being used to ‘push’ the bolt rearward to unlock it….kind of analogous to the DC10/LT11 Airliners….the DC10 just ‘stuck’ it’s engine on the tail, and the LT11 designers actually went through the trouble to refine it. In my opinion, ALL modern weapons should be designed similar
to the Stoner system…assuming the right powder will be used.

Now, Getting back to the Army and Springfield Armory. I need to touch on this aspect because it’s important in that, as you’ll see, Army ‘Higher Ups’ saw to it the weapon never be given a chance to succeed in the first place…a fact which became clear (though the Army tried to do the best they could to cover up their neglect) during the 67’ Ichord Hearings.

A few posts on the web have touched on this already, so I’ll try not to repeat too much. As you know, back when ‘Advisors’ were using the AR-15 in limited use back in SE Asia in theEarly 60’s (when it was still using IMR), the reports started coming back to the Pentagon Raving about it’s performance.

After a while, Defense Secretary McNamara got wind of it and immediately started asking “Why isn’t our Services looking into getting this thing for adoption?” (This came AFTER AF General Curtis Lemay had already purchased
the weapon to be used for Base Security….no, it wasn’t designed TO BE an AirBase security weapon! As some have claimed). So after McNamara kept pressing for results and not getting any, he finally blew up and ORDERED the Army Ordinance Corp to get the ball rolling. Now, imagine, just imagine for a minute. Here you have, for many years previous A nice relationship between the armed forces and Springfield Armory, and now along comes this ‘outsider’ (Armalite/Colt) to be now given the assignment of providing our next battle rifle....on top of which the Non-Brass ‘Civilians’ are claiming to know better than the Army about what’s the best rifle to have. I cannot overstate enough the amount of Loathing that must’ve been seething by the Military guys who were being forced to adopt a weapon that they wanted absolutely NO part of! After realizing they (the Army/Ordinance Corp) had no choice but to comply with McNamaras wishes, they no doubt were not going down w/o a fight! There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that the first and foremost thing they were going to do, was see to it that McNamara regret his decision. And the only way to do that was to make sure the AR-15 failed….and fail badly….even at the expense of our soldiers lives!

So what happened? Beginning in 65’ when troop deployments started escalating in larger and larger numbers, some-where along the line, someone did an ole’ switcheroo with the Propellant, w/o even first consulting with the Designer (Stoner)! Once that happened, you know the saying, it was a ‘Recipe for Disaster’, and the rest is history. A history that DID NOT need to happen that way…a history that COULD’VE and SHOULD’VE been avoided! As the Members of the Ichord hearings pointed out, this whole debacle borders on ‘CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE!!!’

Because of all this, the weapons image has been tarnished right up to this very day, even though the causes were well known back in 67 by the Ichord Committee. Again, this Committee established without doubt, the primary
cause of the trouble was the unannounced switch to Ball powder (and of course, Chrome-plating the chamber was an issue as well).

For those who have never read the transcripts, you can still find it out there on the web. I highly suggest you do so, for you will see what a thorough job the investigators really did in their desire to get to the truth. And you will see without doubt where the real blame lied…and it wasn’t with McNamara.

Posted by: Templeton Peck at May 28, 2007 06:41 AM


You guys make me laugh.

Many of you babble on about changing a MAJOR WEAPONS SYSTEM, when you know very little about assault rifles or infantry weapons...most of what you know is from video games, isn't it? And yet you feel your expert opinions should guide life-and-death procurement decisions. Is that wise?

About the 5.56: it is a good, efficient killer. It's been killing for almost five decdes now. Hundreds of thousands have fallen to it. And isn't it funny that some clamor for a larger round, but in the next breath advocate a new rifle to replace the M-16, even though the new rifle would also be 5.56! Change! We need new, cooler stuff! All the other guys are doing it! And that new Israeli rifle sure does LOOK cool, eh?

As for the "big bore bigots"...heavy rounds mean heavy recoil, heavy weapons, and heavy ammo. Any range advantage is illusory. The farthest you can see on most battlefields is 300 meters. Which is about as far as the average guy can hit in the stress of combat. Anyway, >90% of combat occurs <100 meters. Beyond that we have maching guns, snipers and artillery to kill the enemy.

About the "unreliable" gas system on the M-16: the supposedly superior HK 416 rifles use the EXACT SAME bolt locking system. That is what causes stoppages in sandy conditions, NOT the Direct Gas operating system! Gas pistons like the AK and HK get very dirty, as those of you who ACTUALLY HAVE FIRED these rifles know.

Posted by: Wes at May 25, 2007 10:05 AM


Looking in from UK, I can see that it must be hugely frustrating for troops on the ground to be equiped with a weapon that still seems to have some flaws. I have seen 3 generations of weapons in my time with the UK armed forces. The reliable SLR,(FAL),big round, but very few soldiers truly mastered its power. The SA80A1 good intentions, British built, but so full of flaws UK special forces never really touched it, other than for trials. Poor magazines, mag release that operated when you did not need it, poor components, massively unreliable, it felt like junk and was junk.
Strangly enough as with the HK416, the SA80A2 version is a different beast and Heckler Koch have worked a treat on it. Modified by HK UK armed forces now have a much more reliable weapon. Sure SF wont be using it, but having carried it on operations and fired it in dust storms on ranges in Kuwait, and watched National Guard M16's fail as ours continued to operate. Its largely accepted that for the cost of the mods, every SA80 could have been replaced with an M16,something that was considered.
The US military could do worse and let HK work their magic on the M4 even if costs more. What cost a soldiers life? I hope that the US soldier gets a weapon up to the task,...soon.

Posted by: Dave Curtis at May 25, 2007 09:54 AM


The weapon that gets approved will be the one whos company greases the most political palms. That is how it is and how it has always been. It isnt pretty but it is the truth. Start putting term limits on these polititians. If people think the Pres has the most power they better think again. Why would a Senetor or Congresman stay there for 20-30 years or more?

Posted by: strmvet at May 24, 2007 11:48 PM


My patience has run thin.

"But when was the last time a American ground pounder walked twenty miles into battle? Less Ammo? Most of the time more is a radio call away!"

Are you kidding me? There are quite a few parts of Iraq and Afghanistan that are still very austere, where ammo is not a "radio call away." On top of everything else I have to carry, you want to reduce my ammo loadout or increase the total weight of the ammunition I have to carry?

"No full auto as advisable when clearing a room (hand grenade in, one full auto full magazine sweep around and room is clear..."

Wow, just... wow. You've been watching too many war movies. You have absolutely no concept of MOUT/CQB/FISH.

And NavyVet:
"No conscience means he does not have nightmares of US soldiers in a life or death situation holding a weapon that has just jammed on them."

Easy on the melodramatics, please. Last time anything like that happened was in Nasiriyah in 2003, and that was due to negligence on the part of individual soldiers and their leadership's failure to supervise. Funny how no infantry units were caught in a similar quandary. A friend, who was in the battalion ahead of mine going into Nasiriyah, helped clean up some of the remnants of the 507th Maintenance Company. According to him, most of the weapons they picked up were what we call in the Marine Corps "condition 3". That is, they never had a round chambered at all. That's not a jam, or a malfunction, that's operator negligence.

Folks, I know the weapon system is not perfect, believe me. I am very familiar with the problems of direct impingement gas systems. The major drawback isn't even from a standpoint of jamming in combat, it's from the increased wear on the operating parts from the higher temperatures caused by direct impingement. But, just like the body armor issue that has made so many look foolish, people are spouting conjecture and uninformed opinions. Comments like the three I quoted above add nothing to this debate. Take a step back and think about whether or not you have something useful to add before you hit the "Post" button at the bottom. If you've never humped the streets of Iraq or the mountains of Afghanistan, don't tell me that more ammo will be just a radio call away. If you've never cleared a room, don't tell me that throwing a grenade and spraying the room on full auto will do the trick. And don't confuse 1967 Khe Sanh with 2007 Iraq. The M16 family has come a long way since the Hill Battles. Will I turn my nose up at a short-stroke gas piston operating system? Absolutely not. But there will not be stacks of bodies holding jammed weapons if we do not adopt a piston operated rifle. I am confident in my weapon, because I am confident in my ability to operate it and keep it operating.

End rant.

Posted by: Slab at May 24, 2007 09:09 PM


Saying not to change weapons mid war doesn't hold much water. Look at Delta Force and other units. Thay had enough with the M4 low reliability and now carry the HK416. If the M4 was good enough then they wouldn't have changed. Guess they don't care about changing weapons mid war...

Also to say that the "leaders" who chose the M4 are all angels and have the best interest of the grunt unfortunately isn't always the case. Many of the guys who make these decisions in the military somehow end up working for the same defense contractor that made the weapon they pushed on everyone.

Also, how much pressure do you think the maker of the M4 is putting on the Conn senators and congressmen right now to push through that new M4 buy? A TON!!

lenn

Posted by: lenn at May 24, 2007 09:04 PM


How feasible is starting to only buy uppers that fit onto the m16 series and m4 series lowers? I think I remember some stats on the prices and an 416 upper is about the price as a whole m4. Do lowers wear out at a rate that would make this partial upgrade a bad idea?

Posted by: txzen at May 24, 2007 08:46 PM


The Senator asks a simple, but devastating question. A rarity, indeed.

Everyone knows where I stand on this issue. The M4 and 5.56mm needs to go. Not going to happen anytime soon. The results for radical weapon changes during wartime are mixed at best. Still, during combat, you will know right away if something works as advertised, sometimes at the expense of lives.

It is hard to argue the M4 is superior to the Sig 556, FN SCAR 5.56/7.62mm, Magpul ‘Masada’ 5.56mm, HK 416 5.56mm, or the Barrett M468 6.8mm, just to name a few.

Sometimes you need a light weapon for CQB, and sometimes you need a heavier, longer range weapon. I like the SOF approach for the FN SCAR., although it’s not my favorite rifle.

Since body armor is becoming more and more prevalent amongst our enemies, something new must developed to counter this problem. Another battlefield arms race to contend with. It is the 14th/15th centuries all over again!
.

Posted by: BT at May 24, 2007 04:49 PM


> He [Lieberman] was the running mate to Al Gore
> a few years ago.

I am aware of that. In 2006 he lost a primary to a Democratic opponent, then left the Democratic Party to run under the Connecticut for Lieberman Party. He can claim whatever he wants at this point, but when he refused to accept the will of Democratic Party primary voters he by definition left the Democratic Party. The AP stylebook description for him is "Senator Lieberman [I-CT]" since he lost the "CfL-CT" label when he didn't comply with Connecticut election law on the registration of parties.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer at May 24, 2007 04:35 PM


@Will Wheeler:

One problem is thedirect gas system, another probelm are low quality magazines.
You don't really need to change magazines if youa dopt another weapon, but there are good reasons to do so even without changing the weapon.
Further - many M16 are still limited to safe/single shot/burst. No full auto as advisable when clearing a room (hand grenade in, one full auto full magazine sweep around and room is clear - not advisable in Iraq, but who want's to prepare only for the previous war?).

There are many things not optimal in the AR-15 system and that includes the lower receiver.
Anyway,the rifle cost itself is pretty marginal if purchased in huge quantities. Some hundred, less than 2k bucks at most for the army. For an item that lasts for many years. Compare that to the personnel and rifle add-on costs...
That should be less important than quality.

Posted by: Sven Ortmann at May 24, 2007 03:56 PM


Davids,

I hear a stick works well also

Posted by: Thomas at May 24, 2007 03:26 PM


I know the problem with a bigger bullet fired from a more powerfull weapon. The problem being weight, weight of the weapon, weight of the bullet. Weight means your avg dog face or jar head can carry less ammo. After all when you are marching 20 miles a day every ounce counts.

But when was the last time a American ground pounder walked twenty miles into battle? Less Ammo? Most of the time more is a radio call away!

Why don't they issue some old more powerfull weapons such as the M-14 or even the ancient Bar to some units in actuall combat and get their feed back?

Then go ahead and design your new weapon!

Posted by: davids at May 24, 2007 02:59 PM


Cranky,

You might want to check your stats on Lieberman's party affiliation. http://lieberman.senate.gov/about/
He was the running mate to Al Gore a few years ago.

Posted by: Jeff at May 24, 2007 02:44 PM


Why do we have to repalce the entire infanty rifle system in one fell swoop, in "midstream"? It would seem that the best solution for an immediate problem would be to purchase operating rod uppers from HK, Colt, DSA, and so on. By doing that you are reducing some of the initial cost. And, would further keep costs down by not having to buy other items like magazines, ammo, cleaning kits, and spare parts for an entirely new rifle. Nevermind having to train on a new weapon system.

From what I understand most of the issues with the M-4, and M-16, are related to the gas blowback system. So, it would seem the most logical would be to just replace the gas blowback system. Then, when we have a lul in the fighting, we can worry about changing the entire rifle. So then next time our troops are required to kill some fundamentalist wacko's somewhere in the world they will have a rifle system that was carefully thoughtout and purchased, that allows them to more effectively kill people.

( I know how the Government works, and I know a solution that is sensible, and practical for the troops will never come out of congress, but I can at least hope. Right?)

Posted by: Will Wheeler at May 24, 2007 02:42 PM


> Air/Land forces subcommittee
> chairman, Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.),
> is resisting the competition bill language.
> (Democrat from Conn.... hmmm...)

Joe Lieberman was elected from the Connecticut for Lieberman Party. He neglected to register any members of the party other than himself or to hold a Party meeting, as required by state law, so he lost control of that party to a group of not-so-well-wishers. He then changed his registration and party affiliation to Independent. He is not a member of the Democratic Party nor a Democratic Senator.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer at May 24, 2007 02:28 PM


More and more this conflict is looking like Vietnam.

Another war where the troops are not getting the combat rifle they need because of kickbacks and back-room deals. The war may change, but the reasons stay the same.

Just remember when we quit Vietnam, Thailand was not overthrown, nor Malaysia or Burma.

Al Qaeda has not gotten too far in Saudi Arabia or the other Gulf States. They would not be in Iraq if we were not there in the first place.

Posted by: Joe at May 24, 2007 02:28 PM


A few comments.

First, the M-16 series is obviously getting a little long in the tooth. It's had an almost 40 year run, which is pretty much unprecedented for military issue repeating rifles (with the exceptions of the AK and the Mauser 98). Reevaluating it is a good idea.

Replacing it may not be. Few modern militaries have successfully changed issue rifles (much less calibers) in the middle of a war. Issue of substitute standards are not uncommon -- the Germans issuing the Stg/44 and 7.92mm Kurz, the Russians the SKS and 7.62x39mm, the Japanese moving to 7.7 Arisaka, the Israelis issuing the Galil and M-16 series side by side. Few armies have tried to switch horses in midstream on a wholesale basis.

The only exception that occurs to me right now is our switch from 7.62 NATO/M-14 to the M-16 during Viet Nam. By most accounts, that didn't work out so well. And, IIRC, the M-14 wasn't ever completely replaced; the Navy, Marines, and many Army units (e.g., the Ranger battalion) always kept a few around for sniper/Arctic/desert duty, or antimaterial/EOD.

So, let's measure the feasibility of replacing the M-16 accordingly. Issue of a substitute standard platform (like a piston driven system) and/or cartridge might be a better idea.

Second, is it just me, or does something about this smell like a political stunt? I mean, I'm just sayin'. Historically, Congressman just love the troops, at least until it's time to fund or reform the VA. Some of our worst political hypocrisies contain the phrase "what's good for the troops."

Me, I'm turning up the gain on my bullshit detector. Being a first term Senator doesn't make you a saint.

Third, does anyone on this board have a horse in this race? I don't; I don't own stock in Colt, Heckler, FN, etc., am not employed by them in any capacity, and don't own their wares either. Maybe I've got my bullshit detector's gain turned up too high, but, believe it or not, product reps have been known to anonymously post on gun boards. They've even been known to flame their competitor's products. That's sad, but true. If any of you have got a bias in any direction, I sure would appreciate it if you lay it down, on the square and level.

Fourth, I've been told some of the M-4's problems with grit speak to issued and/or wet lubricants. I've been told that dry lubes -- microspheres, teflon, moly -- do a better job, but they're either expensive, or they haven't been mil spec'd.

Don't know if that's true or not. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone out there BT,DT, got time in the AO? Can the M-4 be fixed with better lubes?

Fifth, getting down on the M-16's gas system is an easy hit. Let's not forget why it was built that way. IIRC, at the time, it was thought that having moving parts like a gas piston and a return spring over/near the muzzle meant more shot dispersion, thought to be especially NFG for full auto. That's why the M-16's return spring and buffer are in the stock tube, closer to the shooter's body, stabilized by his counterweight. Theoretically, the M-16 series holds a tighter group on either semi or full auto than other systems. Theoretically, a low grade moron can consistently get chest hits at combat ranges, even under stress.

IIRC, another reason the system was chosen was that it allowed easy access to all essential parts. Some competing gas tappet systems of the time were also known to foul, and accessing them for repair wasn't as simple.

Don't know if all of that is still true, if it ever was, but bear it in mind. Advances in computer modeling, motion studies, CAD, CAM, etc., etc. may have made for more accurate, fail safe gas piston systems. If so, it's time for a side by side comparison. [And, BTW, if anyone has a gas system that will allow the salvage and conversion of existing uppers, maybe that should be considered too.]

Let's not ascribe the M-16's longevity to simple incompetence or stupidity. That's a cheap shot, however superior it may make you feel. The people who chose, built and maintained the M-16 had (and continue to have) very good intentions. Unfortunately, that's what the road to Hell is paved with.

Please, don't make the same mistake.

Posted by: Demophilus at May 24, 2007 02:22 PM


Air/Land forces subcommittee chairman, Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.), is resisting the competition bill language. (Democrat from Conn.... hmmm...)
and
Colt Defense is based in West Hartford, Conn. (based in Conn.... more hmmmm)

I wonder if Mr. Lieberman sleeps well at night. I'll bet he does. No conscience means he does not have nightmares of US soldiers in a life or death situation holding a weapon that has just jammed on them.

Posted by: Navy Vet. at May 24, 2007 02:20 PM


Coburn has highly impressed me during his first term. He seems to be above all the brown stuff in Washington. I hope he keeps it up.

Posted by: jgeee at May 24, 2007 01:37 PM


If the Army was really concerned about it's soldiers they would buy the HK 416 right now. All the Army top dogs care about is the kickbacks they get from buying more M4s and M16s. Our soldiers fighting for us deserve alot better than a 2nd best carbine.

Posted by: lenn at May 24, 2007 01:18 PM


What criteria would they compare the rifle too?

Posted by: Foreign.Boy at May 24, 2007 12:55 PM


The problem is not linked to the gas system per se, but because the gas system in the M-16 family of rifles does not have a separate gas cylinder that acts on the bolt. The design blows gases directly back through the receiver to the bolt, fouling the small components in between. In comparison, the AK-47 vents the gases to an exterior piston and rod assembly, which exerts force on the bolt.

Posted by: Annonymoose at May 24, 2007 12:50 PM


What's with all the interest in 'rifle' configurations?

European armies use a lot of 'bullpulp' designs.
The new Israeli rifle is pretty cool.. why don't they look into that :P

Posted by: Foreign.Boy at May 24, 2007 12:39 PM


I think it is very stupid of us to think that we can still use a rifle that was developed during the Korean war, when the rest of the world is advancing right around us. Regardless of the number of modifications made to the M4 it is still a very old and out-dated rifle. It is not only a better choice to update the standard battle rifle, but we owe it to our soldiers to give them the very best on the market. Our enemies have already learned this. Result... Iranian made IED's. If the only super power left in the world cant even give it's military the best fighting chance because of some jerk-off in Washington, then they deserve to have the blood of every dead soldier dumped on their house.

Posted by: Jim Kupper at May 24, 2007 12:35 PM


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