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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang

M4-web.jpg

Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.

Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.

"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality," the report said.

The study was commissioned by the Army's Project Manager for Soldier Weapons to address concerns raised by Soldiers returning from combat about the dependability and effectiveness of their small arms.

Download the entire CNA report here (2MB pdf).

"This study assessed Soldier perspectives on the reliability and durability of their weapons systems in combat to aid in decisions regarding current and future small arms needs of the Army," said the study, which was obtained by Military.com.

CNA surveyors conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty, asking them a variety of questions about accessories, weapons training, maintenance and recommended changes to their small arms.

"The U.S. Army Infantry Center is conducting a study to refine the Army's Small Arms Strategy, which focuses on the employment of rifles, carbines, ammunition caliber, and future technologies," said Army spokesman, Lt. Col. William Wiggins, in a statement. "All Services are participating in this study, which is expected in the July/August 2007 timeframe."

The survey lends weight to Army claims that current-issued weapons are effective despite growing criticism from Soldiers and lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the service should re-assess the standard M4 - as well as the M9 pistol.

In April, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) sent a letter to acting Army secretary Pete Geren taking issue with the service's sole-source contract to buy about 500,000 M4 carbines despite evidence that new rifle technologies could provide more reliable weapons.

The study found the most stoppage problems with the M249 machine gun and M9 pistol, with an average of about 30 percent of respondents saying they experienced stoppages with each weapon in firefights. About four in ten Soldiers who said they experienced jams during combat with their pistols or machine guns claimed it took them out of the fight.

Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat.

But of those with malfunctioning M4s, nearly 20 percent said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage," the report said.

Soldiers who attach accessories to their weapons experienced a disproportionate number of malfunctions, with M249 users nine times more likely to experience a stoppage "if accessories were attached via zip cord, four times more likely if attached with duct tape and three times more likely if attached with dummy cords or rails."

"Accessory attachments had a significant impact on reported stoppages," the report said. "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached."

The CNA surveyors also asked Soldiers for their opinions on possible improvements to their small arms. The top request from Soldiers was for more knock-down power, reigniting the debate over America's small arms caliber choices.

"When speaking to experts and Soldiers on site, many commented on the limited ability to effectively stop targets, saying that those personnel targets who were shot multiple times were still able to continue pursuit," the report said.

A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and "some were more specific and requested a return to the Colt .45 for standard issue pistols," including others who asked for hollow-point ammo.

Hollow point rounds have been deemed illegal for military use.

Additionally, M16 users were "consistent and adamant" in asking to be re-issued the more compact M4.

-- Christian

Comments

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Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 15, 2008 02:01 AM


The current 5.56/9mm ammo is a joke. The ubiquitous 7.62 mm AK47 trumps it in both reliability, stopping power and (in rough conditions) accuracy.

Either bring back the classics (Colt45/Browning 50) or replace them with something better. If they were good enough for the Nazis they're good enough for terrorist sects. Shooting people and watching them get back up is the last thing we need in the face of 4000+ casualties and roadside shaped charges courtesy of Iran.

Posted by: triffid98 at April 10, 2008 06:39 AM


Good day to all my fellow soldiers marines air force and navy .Im a ex navy gunner and i agree we need better firepower and should be allow to carry what every each person want so if you want a lame ass 9mm cool but dont tell us to feel sorry for you when after 3 mag you still cant kill anyone simple put until every person is a crack shot mean you can take head shot at 25yr 9out10 time you need a .45 to do the job and rifle i say the 6.8mmm look sweet saw the test fire of it

Posted by: tim at March 22, 2008 01:27 AM


The enemy has no rules why in the world would we put our men and women over there or anywhere without the best and most stopping power there is? That is a crime. Put the congress and senate over there on the street with our military surrounding them to protect them then see what type of weapons and ammo they approve for use!!Wait leave them here and take their families so that they can be here to vote on what they can use. Some families have already had to send the vests for their loved ones to wear I guess we need to send guns and ammo also.

Posted by: Jackie Perry at October 16, 2007 07:12 AM


as a marine i think we do need more stopping power. However we also need a weapon that is easy to maintane. The glock .45 or .40 is the way to go. Forget the rules! Hollow points, and head shots!!

Posted by: m.smith at October 6, 2007 06:59 PM


as a marine i think we do need more stopping power. However we also need a weapon that is easy to maintane. The glock .45 or .40 is the way to go. Forget the rules! Hollow points, and head shots!!

Posted by: m.smith at October 6, 2007 06:58 PM


we were in 'contact' we quickly gained superiority over them as they were running we were picking them off like flies on a cantaloupe, there4 was this insurgenr that was not running i checked with my fire team leader he gave me the go ahead so i peppered this disciplined hard core veet cong with some willy pete. later on that dayi asked about the veet cong this soldier told me you did that animal a favor he was probably sacrifacing hisself for his god so i went on along with my tour with that in my mind and615888orah``

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at July 13, 2007 07:48 PM


Yo, mjl:

People are still on the board; they just don't have anything to add after 405 posts.

If you want to continue the discussion, you might go over to the Military.com board. You'll find it at http://forums.military.com/eve.

Apart from that, there are weapons boards pretty much everywhere. Cast your bread upon the water.

You might try the Center for Army Lessons Learned; they're at http://call.army.mil/. You can contact LEATHERNECK magazine or the MARINE CORPS GAZETTE over at http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/.

Some of the stuff you're saying about the blooper makes sense. Don't know how useful those tactics are with a lot of civilians around. I do know the USMC is working with a 6 shot 40mm launcher that seems tailor made for what you're talking about. You can find a story on that at http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_060323_mgl140,,00.html
Then again, there's always the Mk19. That too was pretty much made for what you're talking about.

Good luck.

Posted by: Demophilus at July 9, 2007 01:12 PM


if this method of communication is for the benefit of our soldiers, (i don't know i could be wrong)then please explain to me what the hell is going on i was the last one to post and that was close to a month ago and nobody has posted since then i have not lost interest i can not say the same for the rest of the people, please do not lose interest this is the only way for some of us to be able to help (in a meager way) our GI'S if i can remember some of the tactics that we used in 'nam and they worked i will definitely pass it down to our GI'S in iraq i mean if our GI'S are willing to put themselves in harm's way then it is the least that i can do to attempt to help them have some victories in their daily life in iraq. SO COME ON PEOPLE DON'T FALL ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL so adios muchachoes hoorah!!!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at July 8, 2007 07:10 PM


i want to get my bro's-in-arms to get the victories that they deserve in those minutes in actual contact (the word "contact" brings back a memory of 'nam after we had to medevac three guy's from our platoon "doc" our medic said "you know these high falutin mf's talk about "war is hell" n hit by a phosphorecent willy pete shrapnel you need to get grenadiers that can put 7 to 10 rounds in the air before the first one impacts you need fast and accurate "bloopergrunts".good luck to you broham's and may you all come back saf ely adios muchachos hoorah!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 28, 2007 09:45 AM


what you all need is some fast and accurate bloopergrunts for your times in actual contact 4 per unit to be safe 1 for left flank work towards center 1 for the right flank work towards the center 1 for immediate rear work towards the center and block abdullahs escape 1 for the front work towards the center because i do not care how suicidal abdullah is he would rather run to his front and catch .556 in his eye than to be burned down to his very soul by willypetes i fergot to spec' that you need to saturate the enemy in willypetes because i do not care how bad of a soldier abdullah thinks he is he will not even know where his ak is at when willypetes are fragmenting all around his culo.what you need is some actual natural bloopergrunts not some dumb f-k that uses the sighting apparatus. what you need is some good old school b'ball shooters,some old school outfielders,old school q'backs i mean natural ass havin' arc shooters they need to be so accurate and so fast that they can lob 7 to 10 rounds in the air before the first one even impacts."war is hell but actual contact is a m-f'ah" "doc" medic west of ankhe 69'now when i say the flank i mean where you cansee the abdullahs and the amins to the right or left or rear or front.well adios muchachos and may you all come back safely, hoorah!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 27, 2007 11:49 PM


i want to get my bro's-in-arms to get the victories that they deserve in those minutes in actual contact (the word "contact" brings back a memory of 'nam after we had to medevac three guy's from our platoon "doc" our medic said "you know these high falutin mf's talk about "war is hell" n hit by a phosphorecent willy pete shrapnel you need to get grenadiers that can put 5 to 8 rounds in the air before the first one impacts you need fast and accurate "bloopergrunts".good luck to you broham's and may you all come back saf ely adios muchachos hoorah!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 27, 2007 11:01 PM


I can only surmise that few realize thier is an amount recoil for each type of round 9mm 223 ETC. and this is calculated to weapon's weight ETC. If you hold certain semi auto pistols to tightly [I.E.scared to death ] they will JAM therefore it stands to reason that the springs are set to certain parameters I.E. weapon weight ! so if the weapons weight is increased [adding what ever ] the spring for the recoil becomes ineffectual .think of it as 2 weights of equal weight tied together [ bullet weight-spring ] suspened over a branch with 2 seperate springs to push them back into place [the bang of the bullet going foward and recoil weapon comeing back ] if I add weight to one or the other something going to change I own 4 ea. of various 9mm includeing a S&W and have used them in target practice with a large variety of munitions and targets my favortes are the light'er "fragmatory rounds" [ not hollow points ! ] which seem to cause the most damage to clay blocks, 1 gallon jugs of water, and blocks of soft paper I.E. phone books. I personaly don't care for the current military 9mm because of the military school 45B and what I learned of them. But I do believe thier is ammo out there that will be more than abbel to suffice in stopping power after all ther are doccumented reports on various shooting cases and the the rounds used. check/read the many gun/weapon magazines!!

Posted by: leeclark1 at June 22, 2007 09:47 PM


Give them the .45 with hollow points.

Posted by: George at June 21, 2007 10:15 PM


Give them the .45 with hollow points.

Posted by: George at June 21, 2007 10:12 PM


it seems like to me that you are interpreting quite incorrectly,l i'm saying that this line of communication is made to help our gi's over in harms way and we should not be commoing back and forth like this it fucks off the time for our soldiers in a very fucked up kind of way. and for you to have a cow over my use of a good huzzah is not good for you or for anybody, you seem to fotget that i'm the one that posed the possibility of fitting out our soldiers with a smaller version of a "blooper" i have always been of the mindset of give the troops what they need and if that can't be done then bring them home and i was not relating to anybody within earshot or eyeshot a "bitter" experience that i had in "nam i am very proud of my tour in 'nam it is the only shining light in my life, i served honorably and i was discharged honorably i was simply relating my experience in 'nam and i still hold it to be a truth that when the rounds start popping all around your head you are not thinking of your buddy's your thinking of yourself and i would go so far as to say that that truth still holds true today in iraq. in 'nam during"contact" i found myself dragging soldiers that had been hit to better cover i was not thinking about it i just did it because somebody had to and they were not my "buds" they were fellow"greenmen" in trouble and when the slicks came in and "dusted them off" nobody said thank you because they were to busy dying and i did not get a commendation for my actions because i was not one of them "hang around the fort indians" in the olden times the only indians that got their rations were the "hang around the fort indians" the other indians were to busy being indians, well i was to busy trying to be a good soldier and staying alive that i did not have time for being a boot polisher with my platoon leaders, company commanders,battalion commanders, brigade commanders, or division commander, i was not interested in kissing ass i was very interested in being a "good living, breathing, soldier.and if you want to take what i write and denigrate it that is fine i 'm not going to let you bait me like that. and for you to say that because i say "hoorah" after i'm through writing that i love the corp, well i say hoorah because it sounds good and i am a hoorah kind of a guy in my time in service we didn't have those fancy huzzahs such asthey have now i say it because it"s better than saying nothing and i am not in love with GW i just feel that he is doing as good a job as he can given the circumstances. i mean give the guy a break he has to perform very well in iraq,russia,china,taiwan,north korea, iran,and each and every state in the union he is tied down all over the world, and i cannot and will not hate a man with so many responsibilities. he has to do right by you he has to do right by me. in one of my commos i said you want to stop them in their tracks?> well call in the fast movers,the gunships, etc. etc. and the ratio i was talking about was not 55k versus 3,250k i was talking about the gazillions of vc/nva we killed and i was ratiioing it with how many thousands of insurgents have been dusted that's the ratio i was interested in, well it seems like you did a good job of baiting me cuz' i'm coming up hook, line,and sinker. and this is not meant to be an invite to write back to me this is just stuff that i am relating, adios caballeros!!and hoorah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 20, 2007 12:34 AM


well that is an unfortunate fact of what was happening in nam however that was a different case than what we are dealing with here. you seem to not grasp the situation entirely. The count is only 3500 in how many years? not 60k in roughly 2 more years. I'm sure my time is off but i know my numbers are not . now you seem to like saying hooooha after everything which makes it seem like you have a certain affinity for the core but you don't seem to have much of an affinity for you fellow brethren that have fallen or will fall and you seem to have an incredible love for your worthless master chief and his peons.Which ultimately shows you don't have any respect for the core because one of the first things you ever learn is the core is the man next to you not just your sorry ass.You of all people being in nam should know what the politics of all this shit is and it should outrage you. I understand the mind fuck they try and play with the last names so you don't get to attached to each other and keep it for lack of a better word business.I have been in urban warfare to say the least and unfortunately i guess according to you i was thinking of others and it would be no different if i were in Iraq. Any ways what is it that saves lives and thats the point not weather or not you are in love with your buddy or your self . the point should not be over looked that there are to many people like you that have a bitter experience because you were probably drafted and didn't want to be there in the first place. I don't want to bash on your sacrifice for this country or any mind fuck you must have now because you couldn't cope with what was thrust upon you, but the simple fact is that there is no reason not to have the best shit we can get. There is plenty of money to go around weather you give a dam about our troops or not. Just my opinion but i don't see this as complaining about what they have to deal with because no one in now had to go they chose to for one reason or another.Its a job and with any other job you have to deal with shit. but how many businesses operate with pins with no ink. They don't, why cause they don't get the job done, period, and that is what this is about is getting the job done PERIOD. What they have they don't think is doing the job and that needs to get fixed FUCK THE COST. FUCK THE PIN PALL SHIT as you so eloquently put it. I don't give a fuck if you had friends or if your mother held you enough or too much. You still need food right or fuck it why feed them they are troops Quit fucking complaining and starve right. no cause like the old saying is an army marches on there stomach. SO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED AND QUIT TRYING TO CHANGE THE FUCKING SUBJECT.HOOORAH

Posted by: chase at June 14, 2007 12:17 AM


well that is an unfortunate fact of what was happening in nam however that was a different case than what we are dealing with here. you seem to not grasp the situation entirely. The count is only 3500 in how many years? not 60k in roughly 2 more years. I'm sure my time is off but i know my numbers are not . now you seem to like saying hooooha after everything which makes it seem like you have a certain affinity for the core but you don't seem to have much of an affinity for you fellow brethren that have fallen or will fall and you seem to have an incredible love for your worthless master chief and his peons.Which ultimately shows you don't have any respect for the core because one of the first things you ever learn is the core is the man next to you not just your sorry ass.You of all people being in nam should know what the politics of all this shit is and it should outrage you. I understand the mind fuck they try and play with the last names so you don't get to attached to each other and keep it for lack of a better word business.I have been in urban warfare to say the least and unfortunately i guess according to you i was thinking of others and it would be no different if i were in Iraq. Any ways what is it that saves lives and thats the point not weather or not you are in love with your buddy or your self . the point should not be over looked that there are to many people like you that have a bitter experience because you were probably drafted and didn't want to be there in the first place. I don't want to bash on your sacrifice for this country or any mind fuck you must have now because you couldn't cope with what was thrust upon you, but the simple fact is that there is no reason not to have the best shit we can get. There is plenty of money to go around weather you give a dam about our troops or not. Just my opinion but i don't see this as complaining about what they have to deal with because no one in now had to go they chose to for one reason or another.Its a job and with any other job you have to deal with shit. but how many businesses operate with pins with no ink. They don't, why cause they don't get the job done, period, and that is what this is about is getting the job done PERIOD. What they have they don't think is doing the job and that needs to get fixed FUCK THE COST. FUCK THE PIN PALL SHIT as you so eloquently put it. I don't give a fuck if you had friends or if your mother held you enough or too much. You still need food right or fuck it why feed them they are troops Quit fucking complaining and starve right. no cause like the old saying is an army marches on there stomach. SO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED AND QUIT TRYING TO CHANGE THE FUCKING SUBJECT.HOOORAH

Posted by: chase at June 14, 2007 12:16 AM


well that is an unfortunate fact of what was happening in nam however that was a different case than what we are dealing with here. you seem to not grasp the situation entirely. The count is only 3500 in how many years? not 60k in roughly 2 more years. I'm sure my time is off but i know my numbers are not . now you seem to like saying hooooha after everything which makes it seem like you have a certain affinity for the core but you don't seem to have much of an affinity for you fellow brethren that have fallen or will fall and you seem to have an incredible love for your worthless master chief and his peons.Which ultimately shows you don't have any respect for the core because one of the first things you ever learn is the core is the man next to you not just your sorry ass.You of all people being in nam should know what the politics of all this shit is and it should outrage you. I understand the mind fuck they try and play with the last names so you don't get to attached to each other and keep it for lack of a better word business.I have been in urban warfare to say the least and unfortunately i guess according to you i was thinking of others and it would be no different if i were in Iraq. Any ways what is it that saves lives and thats the point not weather or not you are in love with your buddy or your self . the point should not be over looked that there are to many people like you that have a bitter experience because you were probably drafted and didn't want to be there in the first place. I don't want to bash on your sacrifice for this country or any mind fuck you must have now because you couldn't cope with what was thrust upon you, but the simple fact is that there is no reason not to have the best shit we can get. There is plenty of money to go around weather you give a dam about our troops or not. Just my opinion but i don't see this as complaining about what they have to deal with because no one in now had to go they chose to for one reason or another.Its a job and with any other job you have to deal with shit. but how many businesses operate with pins with no ink. They don't, why cause they don't get the job done, period, and that is what this is about is getting the job done PERIOD. What they have they don't think is doing the job and that needs to get fixed FUCK THE COST. FUCK THE PIN PALL SHIT as you so eloquently put it. I don't give a fuck if you had friends or if your mother held you enough or too much. You still need food right or fuck it why feed them they are troops Quit fucking complaining and starve right. no cause like the old saying is an army marches on there stomach. SO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED AND QUIT TRYING TO CHANGE THE FUCKING SUBJECT.HOOORAH

Posted by: chase at June 14, 2007 12:15 AM


yeah, the m-4 should be replaced with the Barret 416, which uses a 6.8mm round, a combo of the 7.62 and the 5.56, plus, its more reliable, has more stopping power. Or at least the Heckler and Kock 416, which still uses the 5.56, but is more resistant to jams, especially because of sand, and is esier to costumize, without the worry of the customized part being the problem of your jams.

Posted by: Cesar Gutierrez at June 12, 2007 07:17 PM


I think the army should replace its handguns with ones made by Smith and Wesson. They are far superior. When it comes to rifles, they should check out the H&K models. They are state of the art.

Posted by: Dave at June 11, 2007 04:38 AM


chase we should not be cross communicating on this line for our gi's i want to ask all the troops are you really thinking about your freinds when the rounds start popping over your head? or you are trying to outrun mortars crash/thudding all around you? or whenj you see two or three rpg's/rockets making a beeline to your position? i do not think so!!! when i went out to my line company in 'nam i was the only one to get off of that slick, and the other grunts kept their distance from me because they knew that a "newbies" life expectancy was 1 count 'em 1 day and they didn't want to be anywhere near you, so everything i learned in 'nam i learned it on my own, when i returned on that bird back to "the world" i returned by myself. so lets not get into penpal shit on this line. this is for all of the ground pounders and let's keep it like that. hooooah!!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 11, 2007 03:13 AM


Ahh yes the 9mm issue, well we cant get around that one. We are forced to accept a smaller 9x19mm ammunition, due to NATO commitments. But a better switch better yet is improvements on the projectile we use in it. The 124 gr. standard is fine... i guess to general use. Self defense loads of 147 have show plenty of promise and actual showing of better knockdown power. See how much a little change.. makes a big difference in the way we fight. as for the M9 issue, Golden rule weapons fire when you keep them clean and fixed. Though personally i thought the change to that weapon was silly. Especialy the army requirements they put inot place for that trials. It was a half baked decision to adopt it, hence you get a half baked result. Better options were available, If they want relability. The Austrians have a good answer, most of the european union countries have to complaint with the firearms they chosen.

Posted by: Jack Spicer at June 10, 2007 11:57 PM


Lets be honest US armed forces small arms selection has always been a political one. From the problem plagued AR-15/M-16 family, to the selection of the ammunition we used.

And when others tried to improve on the initial design. Lobbyst from gun manufacturers prevailed.. especially from Colt. As they own the design for M-16 family, even though many other manufacturers have offered alternatives. Like the XM8, granted it wasnt much to look at. Again Colt and other US manufacturers cried foul, in the endevour of choosing the next generation of small arms.

They say its not fair or competative, but you dont see them engaging in development in next generation of small arms. All you see is gagets attached to weapons to make them "effective". In the end its no better than what we have now.. just more weight and more complex. A simple effective battle/assault weapon family is sorely needed. The M-16 rifle was a excellent weapon.. but seriously i dont think too many of our small arms lasted this long of a tour.

But does provide us a good starting platform, despite its weaknesses it has a lot going for it. Perhaps a change of ammunition, internal design changes to make it more effective, and reliable. But that said.. M4 series is no more than a cut down m16 with gaggets and wiggits.. to make it more fancier. But internally .. lets admit.. its prolly not much different from its parent the M-16A1/A2.

To sum things up, we need a reliable front line weapon. Even m. kalashnikov derived his AK-47 family from our very own M1 garand.. We can make good weapons we just too damn stuck up to really sit down and realy work hard on it.

Ammunition side lets.. be frank.. its really up to the use. There is no such thing as one magic caliber to attend to all possible scenarios. Taking the 5.56 out of its usual parameters and requirements of 21 inch barrel you really screwing yourself that way. Want a carbine, develop a better round for it. 5.56 NATO was designed with penetration in mind, SS109 steel cored projectile. And expecting a knockdown power out of it is downright silly. Perhaps a CQB improvement on the 5.56 NATO round would be a better fix to address the standardazation issues.

Posted by: Jack Spicer at June 10, 2007 11:44 PM


I was an airborne infantryman with the 1-325 AIR, 82nd and served in Iraq during OIF. I left the states 14Feb2003 and returned 22Jan2004. The only major piece of equipment that was is serious need of total replacement is the small arms (ie the M4 and the M9), the helmet (which is n the process of being replaced now) and the como. The 5.56mm and the 9mm rounds are just too small for the job of these two firearms. If the military wants to use a flat shooting light round try the .243 as oppossed to the .223(5.56mm). A 30cal round would be better however a .243 would suffice. The design of the M4 is great just needs a larger caliber. As for a pistol go with a .40 or even .45. The body armor saved me life so I can say that it works just fine. The ONLY downfall is the lack of armor on the ribs however armor here would decrease mobility. If your mobility is taken away no armor will save you. The hand held como just wasn't reliable. The three basics: SHOOT, MOVE, COMMUNICATE! We didn't mind having not armor on the trucks because the up-armored trucks are cramped on the inside.

Posted by: Keith Jones at June 9, 2007 09:55 PM


It should be like this. We signed the conventions and treaties to follow those practices with other countries that have signed it. If the members of armed conflict have not signed or are unwilling to then we do not have to follow all rules and stipulations. Why follow a contract if the person you're fighting never signed. We can't lower ourselves to an insurgent level due to the fact that they have no level and never will.

Posted by: Simple at June 9, 2007 02:02 PM


since issue in 1965 the m-16 has had problem. was not desigfn foir killing, stopping, just injury to both the user and the enemy. but it is nato ammo. why they went from a 30 cal mangler, to a 22 want to injur is ?????????? remember the 1911 45 cal. it put you down wre ever you were hit. not the 9mm 10 round hit they kill you.

Posted by: anthony zech at June 9, 2007 12:09 PM


this is for manuel jesse lara. I see what your saying and agree with you in most of your cases. however you sound mostly like a bush pusher than anything. I am not saying by any means that you dont know what your talking about with going with what your told. However when you were in nam if you had the option to have something that could save you life or the lives of your friends fighting beside you wouldn't it piss you off at the fact that your friend died from a wound that could have been prevented with better supplies that is out there. Mind you only because some one on the hill wants to save some money. I realize this is about better weapons but there are other cases like with the dragon scale armor. where they don't want to buy it and wont let them use it even if they get it them selves.Now by all armor could bee seen as different but its really not. you kill a guy he wont kill again you hurt a guy he is most likely still capable of killing. its preventative like armor. So basically my stance to you is yes they should have known what the fuck they are getting in to and should do there job but when is the gov or leaders of this country supposed to step up and do what is right by the guys that are doing the dirty work. give them the right tools to do the job and live through it or at least the best chance possible. I personally think bush is under qualified to make his own bed and dress him self let alone run this country or a war but that is the shit we are all in right now so we deal with it just as the military must do. I merely disagree with letting paper pushing bean counters make the decisions on weather our troops, or should i say sons, daughters, fathers, brothers , sisters, mothers, and friends come home in a fucking box or on there own two feet.

Posted by: chase at June 8, 2007 03:42 PM


As far as the 9 mill/45acp issue goes The Taurus OSS is the best out there single/double
action ambidextrious safety and 13 rounds of 45 acp.Enough said.

Posted by: Henry Thomas at June 8, 2007 03:04 PM


i think we need to get back to more fire power here. the 9mm hold more rounds yes that is true but the bullet flies so fast that the person will not know they were hit till later. now you bring back the colt 45 1911A1 you will know you were hit with the first shot and the repair is so much easier and cheaper for the military.
also i think we need to bring back the m60 7.62mm machine gun just the sound of it will make the insurgents think twice about it. not only the fire but also knock down power.
also the military needs more of the fire power and go to the ak-47 we are the only army in the world that does not use this weapon. because of geneva convention we are to wound people not kill them. but we do need a weapon with more power going from a 5.56 to a 7.62.

Posted by: adam at June 8, 2007 12:58 PM


I believe the militarty needs to bring the Colt 45 back into service or even distribute the Mark 23 that US SOCOM uses to our combat troops. I also believe the military needs to eigther bring back an up dated compact version M14 rifle for urban combat other than the sniper version our stop messing around and put the the new 6.8 mm round into service that not only has good stopping power but amazing velocity to. The 6.8 round is a cross between the 7.62 and the 5.56 mm round.

Posted by: Brandin at June 8, 2007 10:01 AM


Rifel- M1A or AR10
Pistol- HK usp (40.cal) holds 16 rounds, Beretta px4 (40.cal) has 17 rounds, even a freaking glock 23 (40.cal), 1911 colt (45 Cal.) 8 rounds, HK usp (45) 12 rounds, Springfield Armory XD (45) 13 rounds, Para Ordanance hi cap 1911 (45) 14 rounds, I here the argument alot that soldiers want more bullets in there gun thats why we have 9mm, I dont believe it.

Posted by: Ranger 1 at June 8, 2007 08:22 AM


I do believe that our soldiers should have a stronger ammo type, like the 40 caliber s&w, or maybe the sig sauer 357. They are on the front lines, and should be better able to stop any threat that comes across our borders be they here or afar.

Posted by: Sgt.Will at June 7, 2007 10:26 PM


The new H&K assault rifle needs to be considered, and it's that simple. If we have technology such as this and don't equip our military with it, we're essentially giving them slingshots and a pat on the ass with a half-hearted "Good luck!". Bring the colt .45 back, or another .45 caliber pistol ( not the Raptor), and let our boys do their jobs. I'd hate to think we're spending all this money in training teaching them how to stay alive, when all we're doing is sending them off to war with pots on their heads and a pocket full of rocks.
True enough that a well placed round does the job, even from a BB gun...but combat is a little different. Try shooting that paper target while it's shooting back.
Go Army!

Posted by: Priest at June 7, 2007 04:15 PM


I have consistently read through this blog and my issues are these:

- To those of you who defend the pitiful weapons we currently use - take your pride and pistol range techniques to Iraq and use them. Quit telling us how good your weapon is, how deadly you accuracy is and how we're supposed to keep our firearms clean so they will function properly.

- You guys really insult those of us in the field having to defend our freedom and most importantly our comrades, allies and us. You don't realize when driving by on patrol when an insurgent decides to appear "all-of-a-sudden", takes a few shots, and launches an RPG or worse a newly improvised thermal explosive - how critical it is to lay him down with a heavy caliber weapon. That is when we rarely do get a chance to fire back, rather than react and hope we have enough time to get out of the way of any further attacks, into a "safer" spot and a chance to help our wounded. When we do get a chance and from a moving vehicle (imagine road with holes in them – sarcasm here) trying to hit a moving object - the odds of hitting your target is much more difficult than sitting my happy rear-end at a comfy shooting range popping off rounds, taking my sweet time shooting a target whose pattern or place is predetermined.

- Another famous attack on us out here in the field - how much range time do you really think we get? It is much less than you make everyone believe it is. In basic training and beyond, we usually had our rifles plugged with those ridiculous electronic shooters, why? so we can save money. The insurgents and most other (foreign) militaries use live ammunition - we use - electronics? ARE you getting the picture yet?

- For all the insults about keeping our firearms clean and well cared for. The acquisition people and the leadership involved in these decisions really need to help get weapons which can perform in our environments dependably. Quit wasting tax payer dollars: They, (the Gov’t and the Decision Makers) know we pay with our blood on weapons that are inaccurate, hard to sight in, pathetically inoperable when they encounter the very-fine silica and mud and worse yet, way under caliber so stop a foe. This garbage about, your weapon works well if you place your shot well; I can only hope you never have multiple aggressors coming at you and all you have is that pathetic rifle and piss-poor 9mm. While they are angrily firing at you with the AK-47 and there mess-of-a-collection of guns, we’re not only shooting back, we’re praying our guns don’t jam AGAIN!! The acquisition people sit in their air-conditioned chairs, telling the Gov't how much money they will save by purchasing these inferior weapons while we are in reality losing our lives and hoping someday we will kill these guys rather than maim or disable them.

- As I stated - to make comments about a war you aren't serving in, comments about how good this piece of crap rifle and pistol really are - is still an insult to those of us sweating our rears off while you belittle us from your air-conditioned chair. Want to prove us wrong? Send us what we are asking for and see how our spirits lift, our mobility increases and how much impact we make on this terrorist threat. If we’re wrong, we will at least admit it!!

Posted by: dojo-bob at June 7, 2007 01:50 PM


From 9/65 to 1/93, combat service in USMC & US Army and all I know is throughout history, 30 cal is a combat round, M14 - 7.62 ,M1 Garand, 1903 Springfield - 30.06, Mosin-Nagant 1891 - 7.62 , SKS,AK47 - 7.62, Mauser K-98 & Lebel-1886 8 mm, Schmidt-Rubin, Japanese - 6.5 mm and we replaced the .38(=9mm) with the 1911 .45 cal because it was found that in the Phillipines & Cuba, we needed knockdown power. Duh, why would we want to go back to where we know something doesn't work? Beef up the bullet & the firearms. The man in boots in the field knows what works. Give it to him.

Posted by: Raymond Vaughn at June 7, 2007 12:32 PM


I have lived a life of an avid gun & ammunition lover.
The link below will take you to an article that expresses how I and millions of others feel that we need to seriously consider.

http://www.gunblast.com/Eagle_AR10.htm

Posted by: GARY BISHOP at June 7, 2007 12:06 PM


I hope the powers that be will make their minds up soon on what they are going to do. If our soldiers need better stopping power, then by all means we need to get the proper equipment to them asap. I think the M14 and the AR-10 could give todays soldier what they need in a rifle. As to handguns, a 40 cal can deliver the same stopping power as a 45, but at a greater distance with better accuracy. Hay but what do I know, I'm only a cop.

Posted by: Ted Martinez at June 7, 2007 11:10 AM


Fantastic article first and foremost. It is encouraging to see solid data on this issue that is both current and relevant. I gott rid of my personally owned Berretta while I was still in the AirForce and have had positve experiences on the range with the .357sig Sig Saur and a .45 Kimber TLE RL II. As per the Rifle comments I love the AR platform but am very unsattisfied with 5.56 NATO(.223Rem, a round designed to kill foxes and other small furry things. Let it be clear that although I have never seen combat as a Security Forces member I have carried the M-16, M-4, M-249, M-60, and the M-9 with frequency. My two favorites being the M-60 and M-16. I would conclude (like so many of you) that stronger caliber rifle and return to 1911 pistol platform seem to be the best course of action.

Posted by: Samuel McGarvey at June 6, 2007 09:16 PM


Im not a slodier either, but soon plan to join the Marines. Going into to combat with a .223 doesnt seem very "smart" in my opinion, that small of a caliber is just not sufficiant to take down a person, unless your able to get a headshot in the middle of a firefight. A would fell much better in a firefight if i and my entire team were issued a weapon of either a 30\06 or a .308 both very reliable rounds and enough knock down power to take out anyone. As for a model make i dont really know. There arent very many semi-auto or full atuo large caliber weapons that i know of that are suitable for urban combat, and many 30\06 rifles that are in semi-auto are hard to control if you have to fire multiple shots in a matter of seconds. Not only do the standard rifles need an overhaul but so do the sub-machineguns. The MP5 also is just a 9mm, somthing chmbered in a .45 colt or maybe even larger like a .357 or .44. You could get much more knock down with a bigger bullet and maybe even some range.
Thats all ive got to say, happy hunting!

Posted by: Derrick at June 6, 2007 09:05 PM


I am not a soldier, but plan to be and am familiar enough with firearms to know that hollow point ammunition has much more stoppage power and cannot believe that it is "illegal for military use." If anyone would be so kind as to enlighten me on the reasons behind this, it would be greatly appreciated.

e-mail is preferable: nidantwelve@aol.com

thank you in advance,
Ben

Posted by: B. Smith at June 6, 2007 08:46 PM


this is just as i see it....i have not been a soldier yet but i plan on it .....i say because of the recent way the enemy is fighting we should addpt our weapons to match. the M14 is a long range weapon and is most likly not suitable for close in urban warfare. personaly i think we should pull out the Colt .45s again and go with that. Also i know the military has a warehouse at an undisclosed location that is filled with us army small arms left over from World War 1 though present day. they pulled the Thompson submachine guns out in vietnam once again ...why not do it now? it would fit most current engagments i think. of course issue it with something like an m16 or m4 but have it around to just see how it stacks up. Thats just my personaly oppion if you agree or no God bless

Posted by: breven at June 6, 2007 04:35 PM


COL Glen, you might just have a great idea, even though I'm sure you meant it tongue in cheek. A Mini 30 isn't a bad thought. Pluses..American made,way less expensive than an M16 variant,in a pinch,can shoot Haji's ammo, Ruger magazines are excellent,can be had with just about any stock configuration from wood to space age bull pup,barreled action available in stainless steel, can be had in full or semi auto, etc.Minuses..MOA accuracy, sights,but nothing that couldn't be cured easily. I believe that our Canadian friends, the RCMP, use the Mini 14 or Mini 30, as do many corrections departments and some state police. I currently have a Ranch Rifle in .223 with magazines ranging from 5 rounders to 40 rounders as a deterrent to coyotes of both four-legged and two-legged variety. While I feel well armed with this, I am going to get a Mini 30 soon. To all our defenders, may God bless you all, and thanks from a gratefull American.

Posted by: Tim at June 6, 2007 01:17 PM


Making soldiers feel secure in a weapon is very important to combat effectiveness. If they want to carry a pistol as a backup let them. We have heard the debates for years about 9mm vs. .45 Caliber effectiveness, lets end it and adopt a .45 for our troops. Some of the young SF guys I worked with did not feel comfortable carrying a Colt 1911A1 in the cocked and locked configuration, so they opted to stick with the M9 9mm due to their training with the system. Those of us who could carried .45 1911s did. I must say I felt more secure going into Iraq with a rifle and a pistol of sufficient caliber not to need hollow points. The new S&W MP Auto holds 11 rounds of .45 and would be good weapon try to bring the .45 caliber into modern era. Worst case for today let the soldier choose from the pistols we have, .45 Colt 1911 or M9, let them feel confident in their sidearm. JD Jones developed the .300 Whisper, for the M-16 many years ago, it uses the same magazines and gives 7.62 caliber bullet and is effective out to 400 meters, and is compatible with silencers. The silencers(suppressors) are quite an advantage to the shooter during use in enclosed areas. To convert to .300 Whisper just add a new upper receiver to the M4 or M-16A2 and now you have a M4 length weapon. M16A2 are to long for vehicle and Close quarter operations. Some of the guys I went in with had barrels cut down on M-14s added the Smith Muzzle Brake and were very happy carrying a 7.62x51 NATO that was capable of full auto fire and would shred light vehicles. The old M-14 does not jam, and even if rusted shut you can kick the bolt open(not recommended, but it works.) Maybe we should buy Ruger Mini .30s (7.62x39) put a rail and folding stock on it and call it a day.

Posted by: COL Glen at June 6, 2007 11:37 AM


Has anyone thought about mixing old and new. The Barrett M468 fires a 6.8mm round. Bigger than the 5.56 but smaller then the 7.62. The 6.8 has the range of the 5.56 but has the stopping power of the 7.62 at long distance. The 5.56 has the distance but not the power, where the 7.62 has the power, but not the distance. I say take the now shelved XM-8 and rechamber it to the 6.8mm round and take assembly of the reliable HK M416 and put it in the XM-8. Also put rails on the
XM-8. But I know that military brass would think thats too new. It would at least bring the rifle somewhere into the modern ages.I'm also sure NATO would approve to the new round. Our boys deserve the best. URRAH

Posted by: Olva91 at June 6, 2007 08:20 AM


The H&K 416 has been tested and is fielded w/ SOCOM units according to army times. The operating rod system is much stronger, less prone to malfunction and keeps the weapons cleaner. Competition shooters have been using this design for years why can't we get it oh yeah the almighty dollar and desk riding bean counters who probably have never had to use a weapon.

Posted by: sommer at June 6, 2007 07:30 AM


Why not improve the M4/M16 by increasing both the caliber and the gas tube? Kind of like making it better than the AK-47, which has lousy sights. Increasing the diameter of the gas tube will reduce fouling and going to a 7.62 round will increase stoppping power.
As for pistols, I never understood why the military went to the 9mm. Even cold weather gear reduces penetration. Soldiers need at least a .40, or better yet, a .357 magnum (Desert Eagle is a good semi-auto). Hopefully, some bean-counter won't go for a shorty .357 semi-auto, thinking it's the same as the real thing...

Posted by: Lyle at June 6, 2007 07:03 AM


It is not funny that the Military Brass keeps re-inventing the wheel. They learned about one hundred years ago the best man stopper was the .45 ACP. Golly that old Colt design sure worked good.
They could chamber the AR-15/M16 for the 7.62 NATO
round. Oh wait a minute, that was done already along time ago it was called the AR-10. Call me crazy, one round for the service rifle and the crew served weapon. Put some of that armor piercing ammo in your
service rife and you can shoot through block walls. Insurgents hiding in buildings would not be a problem.To my sorrow the bean counters and special interest groups within the Military always get their way. Please call your Congressmen.
To the Grunts, God Bless and do the best you can with what they give you or CHEAT.

Posted by: Phil at June 5, 2007 09:36 PM


The M16/M4 chambered for .308/7.62mm is called the AR10. One could be fielded per squad as a heavy rifleman, but I don't see that happening.

Posted by: CPT Z at June 5, 2007 09:09 PM


M16 or M4? No! You can get an H&K upper receiver to fix the gas tube jamming problem so why issue a rifle that takes two rifles to make it work?

M9? It's really a fine weapon, just the wrong caliber. 45 caliber is the ONLY way to go.

People, it's the 21st century. There are many gun manufactures out there and newer inventions all the time. It seems to me that we should do what we did in the past, that worked for almost 100 years. That is put a bid out for what you want and invite all the different gun manufacturers to submit their inventions and then build a weapon off of what they bring in.

Posted by: Bob Schultz at June 5, 2007 06:16 PM


I am responding to a few earlier comments.

I agree that standard infantry in the U.S. Military need to have higher caliber weapons, no doubt about it.

But the M16/M4 is GREAT weapon. It does not Jam all the time nor are the latest models prone to it. if you read the article, it said only 19 % of soldiers in combat experienced a jam and OF THOSE 19%, 20% were taken out of the fight completely. so, out of 100 that is only 4 (if you do the math correctly). That also says that 81% of solders in combat NEVER experience a jam. That is pretty damn good if you ask me. And this is in wome of the worst conditions for any firearm I might add.

Are there better guns out there? yes, there are. I keep reading about H&K's version of an M4 the 416. Thats appears to be a great gun but it has not been tested yet so don't get too excited. I am sure it is awesome (H&K's always are) but dont just jump on the bandwagon about it until we KNOW its the best.

Anyway, that's all I have to say.

Posted by: Loran at June 5, 2007 06:05 PM


The military is not interested in the best, most accurate, or the most reliable for small arms. The US Military is interested in smart technology. Smart technology like vehicles and communication and stuff that joe is never going to touch. If joe can get by on the stuff that we have... colt M-16 parts... then the US Military can continue to fund JRTC, and can continue to research new combat technologies. The HK-416 is twice the cost of the colt systems and it would not be compatible with any of the current small arms that are currently in the field. The hk416 may be a better weapon but it would be very unwise for the US Military leaders to change much when we are committed to battle. However I would love to see it get field tested in some more remote arenas. Our unit is in line to play with something new next year.

Posted by: MILBOB at June 5, 2007 02:52 PM


Why not chamber the M-16 or M-4, for the .308 round....?

Posted by: USARMY-VP11B at June 5, 2007 02:26 PM


Look jokers, there is only one caliber for a combat handgun .45acp/45.super! There is no substitute for what this round does, everything else is a compromise that reduces the effectiveness of the intended cartridge. .308 is the best all around rifle round for what the Army needs. HK has the "ergonomics" worked out pretty well, load from the left, no silly charging handles and whatnot. Our military has been issuing inferior weapons and the like since it's conception, when will they listen to the civillian experts?

Posted by: Ben Buono at June 5, 2007 09:38 AM


we should have the best firepower available in my book thats the hk416 and both Glock 21 & 22 are reliabilty at their finest.

Posted by: R. Fernandez at June 5, 2007 09:03 AM


Give the men the best the H&K 416 in 308cal. and a 45cal.or a 10mm but don't give them a gun thats going to jam like the m16 or m4 .....

Posted by: karl at June 5, 2007 08:32 AM


Give the men the best the H&K 416 in 208cal. and a 45cal.or a 10mm but don't give them a gun thats going to jam like the m16 or m4 .....

Posted by: karl at June 5, 2007 08:30 AM


I agree with issuing a new side arm. I'm retired ARMY and I hated the 9mm. I now work in Law Enforcement and have fired numerous small arms weapons. By far the best and most reliable is the Glock 22C (.40 Cal). We had actually put the pistol through the ringer by dropping it from heights 20 floor building, threw it in a creek bed in mud, sand and water and was able to engage my target without a problem...try it, you'll like it!

Posted by: Miguel at June 5, 2007 07:52 AM


Wha about the 6.8SPC, that'd be a good switch if they want more power. As for the .45s, everyone knows most of them are 50+ years old. I'd suggest switching to the Smith & Wesson M&P in .40S&W, more control than most .45s and good knockdown, I'm a gunsmith, and it's what I carry every day. If I'm wearing pants, I have my M&P.

Posted by: G.W.C. at June 5, 2007 03:53 AM


The M16 jams really easy. I know from experiance. No, I have never been in combat and I'm still in my 1st year in the military, but as much as I've had to carry and use an M16 I definately don't want to have one while fighting. It doesn't have to be a dirty weapon, it could be a worn or dirty magazine that can cause it to jam. I'm all for something more reliable and compact.

Posted by: Armybrat at June 5, 2007 12:25 AM


I think we all need to let the soldiers decide what the best weapon is for themself. M4 is notorious for jamming. Still a very effective gun. Military proffesionals are trained to fix there tools in case the situation occurs. A better weapon of choice might be a .50 calibur. Perhaps it is time to design better ammo then what is available for our troops now.

Posted by: Dustin Dericks at June 4, 2007 10:59 PM


The 1911 is much more effective in a CQB fight. Every Soldier should have an M4 as his primary and a .40 or .45 as a secondary in the drop holster. If you disagree or believe the ballistics of the M9 is sufficent, then you need to spend more time on target. As for hollow point, the round is less accurate past 15m and has been deemed against the law of land warfare. The best fix for this problem until the 1911 is reissued, is monthly reflexive fire using advanced shooting tables. Cheers..

Posted by: 1SG C at June 4, 2007 10:49 PM


Once again stop complaining cause it won't happen anytime soon. Someone mentioned they needed a larger round because they had to shoot 10 to 15 times before the enemy dropped. That is bull. It's called AIM!! Try it and it will work, plus you should be aiming for there center mass not the head you dumb a@#es.
Suck it up and drive on.

Posted by: Sgt P from 3rd ID at June 4, 2007 08:51 PM


The .223 is a smaller caliber so why not switched to a m16a3 or something and for the M9 why not just get our soldiers new 1911's there great kick ass guns that will do the job! As for the .223 i dunno maybe some of these leading gun techs and gun smiths can create something that will work. But the main promblem is we have all this technolagy and we arnt doing anything with it i mean catn we do better for our troops there only giving up there lives to keep ours safe. No offense intended to anyone here i just want our troops to have everything we can give them to keep them safe ya know what im saying.

Posted by: Michael.T.Conner at June 4, 2007 08:07 PM


I was a soldier from 1982 - 1989. I agree with the comment just before mine that the existing stock of M1911 .45s were in deplorable condition. Many of those I carried were from before World War I. Most rattled louder than sabres when shook. The M9 sidearm is not an equivelent or even suitable replacement. I have owned many of my own variants of the Berretta M9 sidearm. The 9mm just does NOT have the stopping capabilities of a .45 round.

Recommend we replace the M9 with a .45 cal Colt or Colt like sidearm that is totally outfitted from new stocks, none of the existing M1911 parts are adequate.

Posted by: Jag at June 4, 2007 06:48 PM


This is a question for Christian,

Why do you contradict the importance of your statistics with different emphasis? For example:

You write, "Though vocal critics of the M4 say it's prone to jamming in the talcum-like sand environments of Iraq and Afghanistan, only 19 percent of M4 users said they experienced stoppages in combat."

Why do you say, "only 19 percent," here and say, "
A full 20 percent of M9 users said they wanted a new weapon, and..."

Why is 19 percent "only" and 20 percent "a full?" Those numbers both seem significantly close to me.

It's either bad writing on your part, or a hidden agenda in the text to gain favor for one position over another. Reporters should stop giving their opinions in articles and report the facts without modifiers.

However, I commend your courage doing your job in Iraq.

Respectfully,
Blackie

Posted by: Blackie at June 4, 2007 06:13 PM


dam you guys make me feel like i wanna hurl. in my namsky time i never heard of any of our guys complaining about needing stouter ammo, and i do not even remember any body in the bush complaining about there rifles (m16) jamming, i know my blooper never jammed on me well then how could it it only had 2 moving parts (trig&hammer) next thing you guy's will be wanting weapons ala star trek,phasers? just follow your sop's they are there to save your lives.big GW is not your chaplin, psychiatrist,counselor,dammit he is your superior officer!!start acting like you know what you have been trained to do (kill or be killed) you want to stop them in their tracks then call in the dam arclights (buff's bravo 52's) (b.ig u.gly f.at f.rigger)call in the snoopster or the puffster i'm tired of explaining what these terms mean you are all adults you figure it out adios sons of america just do your job. and you guy's probably are doing your jobs this is probably one of those media/democrat bait and switch stunts they are famous for if that is the case then i apologize to all of my brothers in arms for calling you snivelers,whiners,insubordinates, etc. and i stand up and shout from the rooftops the media/democrats are on pipe. i don't have to explain pipe now do i? & i don't mean crackpipe i mean the fat tube that swings down beetween our legs & they probably are also indulging in that glass pipe!!! semper fi! hooah! lets roll! commence two dxing those insurgents, hoooah!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 4, 2007 04:48 PM


i posted 2/3 days ago i am the one that suggested a revised version of my blooper (m-79). i served with alpha co.1/8 inf.bde.4th ID then delta co. needed a gunner on a mortar and i was transferred my mos's were 11b/11c. if any body wants to check me out feel free to contact military archives,college park,maryland. anyway excuse my suspicious nature residuals a la 'nam. i rethunk this whole thing about the snivelers needing heftier ammo. in my time in 'nam 55,000 gi's kia vs. gazillions vc/nva kia.what is the ratio in iraq? you need heavier ammo call in the fastmovers,sundry gunships,155/175 arty's, have you seen what a flatbed truck mounted quad 50 can do? call in one of them bad boys. you big crybaby's ought to be redfaced right now. what your saying is that you do not want to do the job your good pres. GW is ordering you to do. you snivelers knew from day one that the jobs you signed up for could be very dangerous at times right so why you crying now? stop crying do more DXing.DIRECT EXCHANGE SENT THE INSURGENCY BACK TO THEIR GOD/VIRGINS? HOORAH!!!

Posted by: manuel jesse lara at June 4, 2007 02:02 PM


Our servicemen deserve the best we can provide. The trade off between stopping power and portability is one of the classic physical limitations we have to live within. It has to be difficult to have to live with the decision that has to be made. Their isn't even a well worn phrase to utilize. The only advice that has any value is find a good statistician and calculate it up/down/left/right and every way it could be analyzed. I can only wish a pattern emerges and can guide the decision maker to some peace of mind that at least there is some 'hard data' to justify the decision.

Posted by: Micheal Morgan at June 4, 2007 12:08 PM


I was an Army MP just as the M-1911 was beginning to be replaced by the M9. The .45 ACP round has more stopping power than the 9mm, but the army's batch of M1911 pistols needed replacing.

The M-1911 I carried was one of the last batch manufactured for the government, sometime between the Korean & Vietnam wars. It had fired some many rounds over the decades that it literally rattled when your hand moved. In addition, the rifling in the barrel was nearly worn down to the point that I called it my "Palm Musket".

It's a miracle I ever qualified with the thing because it wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 20 yards. I was in a decent, active duty unit too, so it was not a case of a backwater unit receiving hand-me-downs, and I was very, very proficient with the S&W 4506 I carried as a law enforcement officer after my discharge.

So, maybe the 9mm was a bad choice for a close quarter combat weapon, but if Uncle Sam intended to stay with the .45, he needed a whole big batch of new ones.

Posted by: Andy at June 4, 2007 12:04 PM


we are in the 21st century why not just drop a thermonuclear weapon on them....and end this crusade.

Posted by: garin at June 4, 2007 11:47 AM


From my young friend, a 4-tour Marine officer soon to be deployed again:

During our recent two week shooting package, a few flaws in the M-9 and the M-4 carbine once again raised their ugly heads.

The M-9 has a tendency to shatter locking blocks during prolonged (CQB/CQC) courses of fire. Five locking blocks out of 12 weapons shattered. During the two weeks we also had one barrel completely rupture in a circular radius around the chamber portion, three trigger springs broke, and two slides cracked. In the past I have watched several forward portions of M-9 slides launch down range. Not exactly a major safety factor. This weapon is not a stellar performer. On the range, this was not a major issue, but in combat, dirt and sand and irregular maintenance make for a serious problem. If the U.S. Government was going to buy what basically is a knock-off of the WWII German P-38, why did they get the cheap, aluminum version?

I came in the service when the M1911A1 was being phased out and I have felt a frustration that has continued to grow every time I go to a range with this weapon. Typically, an armorer is required to go to the pistol range to work on weapons that go down when the M-9 is being fired. The M-9 functions fine when it is a "rack queen" sitting in the armory until it is pulled out for a once a year familiarization fire or limited round qualification course. It does not hold up under the rigors of combat or during a realistically run CQC course of fire. To add injury to insult, many of the magazines my Marines were issued have serious issues with the springs and followers. There are now three variations of magazines that the Marine Corps issues that range from the oldest to the newest. The guys who are getting ready to deploy normally scramble around to get the original Beretta "Made in Italy" mags or some of the newest mags that the Corps is issuing. Everyone agrees that the new mags are the best.

I often wondered why a fine service pistol like the M1911A1 was not altered to the 9mm round. It seems to me that if Uncle Sam REALLY
needed to go to 9mm that it would be a LOT cheaper to give the old M1911A1 an upgrade with a 9mm barrel, extended extractor, and new magazine to accommodate the 9mm ammo. There are hundreds of thousands of M1911A1s sitting in storage in Government warehouses that could be very cheaply modified. It's a pity.

The M-4 is plagued with the same old complaint that has followed it's type of operating system since the days of Vietnam when you were in the
Corps. As far as I know, it is the only weapon fielded by any country’s armed forces that not only dumps all of it's filth and carbon into the
chamber area, it also requires a forward assist so the operator can cram rounds into it's fouled chamber as the crap builds up. The new gas tappet system upgrades that are being developed look real promising. I hope that they are the wave of the future. The amount of filth that builds up in the chamber area of the current system after one day of firing is over the top compared to other weapon systems. Otherwise, it's not a bad little rifle.
Semper Fi

Posted by: Dusty Rivers at June 4, 2007 11:33 AM


Hey guys, if the enemy can carry around their 7.62X39 ammo for their AK-47s, why can't our guys lug around their 7.62 ammo and get back to a reliable shoulder weapon system.

Just an old sailor's opininon...

And as a 35 year law enforcement veteran,when it comes to a pistol, I trust the .45 ACP, especially using the hydro-shock bullet issued by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

Posted by: Steelhauser at June 4, 2007 08:19 AM


The bullet used in the M16/M4 won't fragment at the cannelure at velocities below 2,800 fps, and thereby won't produce multiple wound tracks in the victim as did the older rounds. Those multiple wound tracks are what contributed to the older rounds lethality.

We need to go to a bigger caliber if we're going to keep shortening barrels!

Posted by: Jim Reese at June 4, 2007 07:25 AM


I would like to say that when I was doing warm up training for Northern Ireland we had a Pen-Dem and the 5.56 round was actually better at getting through brick walls than the 7.62 which has obvious advantages in FIBUA (Fighting in built up areas). Obviously it doesn't knock people flat in the same way the 7.62 does but then the average infantryman can't carry as many of the rounds. Now in Iraq where re-sup is easy then this is not a problem but in Afghanistan there is a definate problem in humping these loads.

The discussion on whether to adopt the HK G36 is an interesting one but fails to take into account the majority of fighting the US and British forces are carrying out. The G-36 is an excellent weapon but too long for FIBUA/OBUA. In FIBUA you need a bullpup weapon which makes it easier to fire round corners, not catch it on door/window frames an mouse holes blown in the sides of walls to effect entry into the building. That means at the moment you have the French FAMAS, the British SA-80 A-2 (which is the most accurate of all NATO infantry rifles but has had reliability problems in the past and on personal experience is heavy) or the Austrian Steyr AUG. The FN P-90 looks pretty but cannot fire anything heavier than the 9mm. What is needed is a Bullpup weapon that can fire the 7.62 (which was phased out of NATO stock by the US as an individual weapon round which forced most NATO armies to drop the FN FAL/SLR). The problem with this is that would mean that the US infantryman would possibly have two rifles to use depending on whether he was fighting in open country (Afghanistan) or in towns (Iraq). The solution as far as I am concerned is to change the fire team so that one man carries the 7,62 (possibly with a Bipod to give each section 2 designated marksmen) and the rest carry a 5.56 M-4 or Minimi. Since the heavier weapons in a platoon fire 7.62 then you will not have any real difficulties in the logistics chain.

The US army has finally picked up the excellent M240G which the British army has been using for decades, phasing out the unreliable M-60. But the GPMG is heavy and as many conventional wars have taught NATO forces the value of a Machine gun per section at least (ideally per fire team), I believe the Minimi/M249 is the best compromise between rate of fire and weight.

Pistols are a last ditch weapon so I don't really believe it matters what the pistol is as long as it flattens the guy in range. I don't know pistols that well but I know SF teams carry the Sig P-226 which is a 9mm, and since they choose their own weapons that can't be all bad. The last ditch weapon for your average soldier should be acurate and big so I see no problem with a modern weapon chambered to fire the .45.

In the words of Dennis Miller. "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

Posted by: Gallagher at June 4, 2007 03:38 AM


Glock 10mm simply perfect -

or

Heckler Koch USP .40 Expert/Tactical
- the o-ring assisted barrel is fantasticly accurate and long lasting
- the jet-funnel magwell helps load those translucent 16 round .40 mags reliably
- add the green on orange night sights and our boys and girls would be holding the best sidearms in the world for this job -
And isn't that the way it is supposed to be?

Not to keep supporting one company - but the HK MSG90 would be great because it's easy to use, great ergos, lighter weight than a G3, and one of the more accurate and reliable semis in the world - let's starting handing these out in carbines as well.

Budget be damned - hire Oberndorf and smack Allah silly

Posted by: dough at June 4, 2007 02:49 AM


Fresh out of college, I joined the Marine Corps because if i signed up for an "03" infantry I could go through an abbreviated trng program and went straight to SE Asia to lead a pack of grunts who were more green then I was. After 7 mos of ankle deep water and leeches I was offered the reward of replacing my M14 with a light weight rapid firing M16 which was viewed by some as a prize. I refused, to their dismay. I wanted to live long enough to get home. I did come home though not in one piece. A bouncing betty had my name on it.I still think the M16 - M4 series are crap when it comes to being a battle rifle. Our Dept of Defense have expressed their idiocy passing up on the HK416 and the FN-ScAR-Light which are far superior to the BB Guns our men are forced to carry.And I would never surrender my Colt 1911A1 without a battle.

Posted by: W M Gibbons at June 4, 2007 01:48 AM


60% of the problem with the M4/M16 is the ammo. The rest is shot placement. The switch to a heavier bullet,62gr,in the 80s from the Nam era 55gr was not a great decision. Piercing the steel pot at 600 meters was a big requirement in the 80s for some unknown reason, and marksmanship units and the Marines wish for more range out of the M16. So we went to a better known distance range bullet that was lousy in combat. It was too stable and did not tumble like the 55gr.
I carried the M16A1 in the Gulf War and it did fine from 200m in with the old ammo 55gr. My final tour in Iraq 04/05 I started with a M4 14" barrel with the 62gr which sucked at all ranges. It was accurate but anything other than head shots were 50/50. ( I did see a kid drop a target at over 150m with one shot from a M4) I used a M14 for 7 months and had no complaints except having less than half the ammo load for the same weight and it was a bit cumbersome in CQB and restraining detainees. If I had another go of it I would mod a 14 out and take that with me. (but again I saw a Scout gunner get 10+ good hits on a target with a 240 and the target was still fighting for 5 min after)At the end of my tour and carear I got my hands on some Mk262 5.56 and a M16A4 DSM prototype setup with a ACOG. I used it for the rest of my tour and it worked very well.
Wish we had a system that would stop IEDs, I'd be on another tour today.

Oh and as for the M9...POS! Has no business on the battle field. There are tons of 9mms out there that are better than that paperweight.

Posted by: Retiredrecon at June 4, 2007 12:16 AM


The .30 06 in the Garand and the Colt .45 worked well in the european theater.

The .308 in the M14, and the Colt .45 worked worked well in Korea and the early Nam.

The .223 and the 9mm are a compromise that place soldiers in harms way.

Lets teach our forces how to shoot, and give them the proper equipment.

Posted by: Scott at June 3, 2007 10:55 PM


Our combat personnel deserve every advantage needed to stop the enemy in his tracks. Sending them into combat with weapons that leave our personnel vulnerabe is unsat. Give them what they need to succeed.

Posted by: marcia at June 3, 2007 10:03 PM


Our combat personnel deserve every advantage needed to stop the enemy in his tracks. Sending them into combat with weapons that leave our personnel vulnerabe is unsat. Give them what they need to succeed.

Posted by: marcia at June 3, 2007 10:01 PM


Ask R. Lee. Ermey e knows the field facts of life and the technical side of thign

Posted by: Ryan Jones at June 3, 2007 09:55 PM


I believe the military made a voefully inadequate decision to adopt the 9mm to begin with. The 45 is the only round that has the necessary stoping power when using ball ammunition. It has a reasonable weight, excellent accuracy, safe house to house velocity and so on. While a 40 cal would be good the 45 is and always will be the ultimate "all around" caliber for close range work. For many years now everyone has been trying to match the effective qualities of the 45 auto and no one has. The limitation that it has is of course magazine capacity. I consider this a moot point when I can bring down almost any human with a properly placed 45 auto round. This is versus an average of three rounds from ball 9mm. Do the math and you will find that taking these facts into consideration the 45 auto has 3 more effective rounds than a 12/13 round 9mm. Of course these stats are based on no body armour. If body armour is figured in then a high velocity round of special construction will have to be used
making the 9mm completely worthless. At least the 45 auto has a disabling shock value when used against most current body armour.

Just one mans opinion.

Posted by: angelo d roberson at June 3, 2007 07:54 PM


Uncle Sugar is doing what he usually does. He sends troops to an area in the world with the wrong equipment and expects the soldier to do the impossible w/ nothing. It's always safer in Washington, DC than in a foxhole somewhere. The only presidents who truly understood that were soldiers before they were presidents. But America elected him to run this great republic. Let's hope the next president can do a better job since the current can't seem to figure it out

Posted by: George at June 3, 2007 07:53 PM


Hollow Point is not illegal for military use. Thanks to the Navy there is a DODT. Hollow Points are authorized for Military Police Use CONUS. Its just not widely known.

Posted by: John Stinson at June 3, 2007 07:11 PM


Being a prior service soldier, I think the soldiers should get the best technology out there. So if they want a weapon with more stopping power and a weapon that is less likely to jam up in a fire fight give it to them.

Posted by: L Smith at June 3, 2007 06:40 PM


Quoted: "Since when we're we allowed to get our own weapons shipped over to Iraq? Last time I was there, in 2003, we couldn't have anything. Only what we were issued. Also, they let your family send weapons through the mail these days?"

Yes, I took (brought myself) my own weapons, and no, my family did not send me weapons. They sent me ammo (supplies to be more precise). I used very little of what was issued, because what was issued was second-rate crap. Service time and rank have its privledges.

Posted by: Zach at June 3, 2007 05:53 PM


ok look, number one having hollow point rounds illegal is stupid. in comparsion to the M9 the 1911 colt is better in almost every way tactical and firing power. Number two Soldiers having to ask for more lethal weapons is just said. it is almost a oxymoron. I would recommand and afforable, light, well made German weapon. the H and K G36. 30 round clip used by mainstream German Army and Police. rated one of the best in the world. its the best way to go

Posted by: Jason at June 3, 2007 05:43 PM


I recommend the M468; Do a search in the web or youtube and you can see the performance...

Posted by: Rafy at June 3, 2007 04:04 PM


When discussing the topics of small arm weaponry, ammunition, tactics, and aquisitions, it is important to disect each of the topics into separate catogories. Beginning with what truly governs all critical decisions when reviewing the mass purchase of equipment, you must first look at the dirty word, "BUDGET". If the readers research the decisions behind using the 3 banded muzzle loader from Springfield Armory during the Civil War, it was because that the amount of ammunition stockpiled was too great to simply discard. That, in itself equates to "MONEY". And politicians primarily look at money then, as well as now.
When the M-14 Rifle was designed, some of the contributing factors were a result of hard-line generals who supported and advocated that the 30.06 round was the only choice...therefore the .308 caliber round was conceived. As well, when one looks at the engineering of the rifle (M-14), we see characteristics of the ominous
M-1 Garand,(Not a coincident). When Eugene Stoner first engineered the AR-15, he followed certain principles exclusive to "Assault Rifles". These principles were coined by Germans, and there technology set the standard.

As for the M-16A2, M-4A2 or A3, it is important to first identify the weakest link in the system....is it the sighting components?... The ergonomics of the selector switch to the pistol grip?... The mechanical operation of the charging handle when conducting and immediate or remedial action drill?... The weakest link is the gas operating system....time and time again. And, there are several variables in the system which can lead to a stoppage. So, is there a solution? I believe that Mr. Kalishnakov forsaw this problem and basically addressed the issue as early as 1947....Now, H&K has modified and integrated this concept with an already "Proven" Assault Rifle that should now be tested, just as Mr. Stoner's concept was tested in the 1960's.

As for ammunition: Review Dr. Fachler's (Spelling?) "WOUND BALLISTIC REVIEW" which continues to emphasize "Mass and Diameter", when discussing Permanent Wound Channel effect. Next, review the information which discusses Temorary Wound Channel effect and realize that what the soldiers are addressing is the Hydrostatic shock induced onto the body that creates a disruption of the electrical system, abruptly shutting down the heart...(Stopping or Knockdown Power).

The bullet configuration which can effect several variables to include: external and terminal ballistics has a tremendous decision as to whether the soldier first hits the subject, and then can incapacitate the subject before the subject incapacitates our soldiers!
BALLISTIC COEFICIENTS (how flat and effecient the bullet travels) should be a major consideration, but not the only thing. Remember, we are not punching holes in paper! So, loading ammunition for combat with Boattail Matchking bullits that have low terminal wound ratings is insane! Who decided that it was cruel to kill men with certain bullets anyway? Killing is killing, and there are no short cuts to this matter! Do it right the first time and you can reduce the deaths of our men in combat! Ballistic and Hunting experts can provide more insight into ammunition selection than a handfull of politicians and close minded Pentagon bean counters can when it comes to killing effectively! Do the homework, and make the decision! It saves our lives, and elliminates the enemy from the battlefield.

Finally, the matter of tactics, and how they are selected continue to plauge combat operators. USSOCOM, USSOC, and other commands have in their database, exspansive material which supports why certain target aquisition techniques are preferred over others. As well, techniques vary in the operation and manipulation of weapons because more and more gadgets (bells and whistles) are integrated into a weapon. Consequently, certain tactics, techniques and procedures (TTP's) are developed. As it has been said from days of old; "You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball!"
Multiple external safeties and addtional functions can in fact, conflict with sound doctrinal TTP's which negetively effect muscle memory training concepts. And, then there are the "old Flat Range Competition Shooters from days gone by"........The word is, COMBAT, not COMPETITION. TTP's to include the facilties for training should support sound, combat proven doctrine as opposed to some system built around the matches at Camp Perry or Qunatico! Look it up....And ask people like Paul Howe or other combat tested men.

Posted by: Jim Thompson at June 3, 2007 03:28 PM


I would have to agree with most of you basically saying we need to do what ever it takes. If things worked out different i would be out there right now and even still i have friends that are, in fact my best friend that i went to boot camp with is about to go and his little brother is there now marine inf. what these paper pushers don't get is that it is very personal and there was a saying i liked and made since. if yo9u can't stand behind our troops try standing in front of them. What all this is to me and maybe it is over simplified but they are not standing behind our troops because if they were they would do what ever it takes to give them the tools to do the job and do it right. oh and that little thing called saving lives. Maybe i'm a simpleton but it seems the ends justifies the means. we take one life we can save countless lives. We need what it takes to do the job to take that one life to save many. i would rather be court marshaled and use what it takes than die because some prick wants to save a dollar. mind you one that has never seen the pieces of war. May angels fallow all of you in to what ever situation you are in and fallow you home. Safely.

Posted by: Chase at June 3, 2007 03:20 PM


::In responce realmagick72 at June 2, 2007::

If you know any SEALs they hate the MK23 or if you've ever seen or shot it you would know why it's worse than that Glock 21 a big 2x4 you have to hold and then try and shot accurtly not really going to happen. that is why they use the sig 9mm now. also yea they have the ability to customize their load out, most of the time they travel with the M4's or the MK18 (5.56 10.5in upper) the 7.62x39 round suck when shooting someone with it, it is just like a pistol round low velosity which means it goes in yaws and comes out a$$ first, it over penatrates and suck horriably at longer ranges 300 being long range for those rounds. the 5.56 while small yea traveling at 3040FPS doesnt over penetrate it actually rips its self apart in side the body out to about 200m constently. Also not you but someone on here said the rounds after hitting bone, ummmm NO you need to go do another study on teminal ballistics. I've also been to Iraq and Afgan and some other places with the my m4,m16-A4,MK18,M9,AK and some other weapons the m4 never failed me the problem with them isnt the weapon its normally the mags, keep the feed lips stright and the problems dont really happen. also the more stopping power comments are killing me stopping power does nothing becuase its not what people think it is the stopping power is the kentic power the power that actually does the work with a round is the momuntium power which is about the same for all rounds around .8 flbs or like getting hit in the chest with a softball and thats all rounds from the 7.62 to a 22 cal.

Posted by: Marine0324 at June 3, 2007 03:16 PM


While I've read many of the comments posted, few appear to be truly researched. The M4 carbine service rifle is a good choice for combat. It does, however, have inherent issues that should be addressed. First, the gas operated aspect of the rifle is certainly hampering. There are mechanical systems available (example: POF) that eliminate the gas tube and offer significant increases in reliability and lower amounts of maintainence. Secondly, the 30 round magazines that are issued have problems with the 'lock in' to the magazine well. H&K offers a magazine that remedies that problem. Further, the spring in the current US issued magazine is easily weakened, and requires periodic dissassembly to allow the spring to 'relax'. As for the M9, the magazine spring (once again) is the primary problem. Ammunition issues can be addressed as well. While all service members are well aware that 'hollow points' are illegal, there are blended metal, limited penetration rounds that offer a substantial increase in stopping power and lethality. These rounds should certainly be reconsidered for service. Reliablity of our tools is paramount, and should be given the absolute top consideration. Washingt