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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

One Answer to Hollow-Tip Bans

pistol-shoot-web.jpg

Defense Tech infrequent contributor and resident ballistics expert David Woroner busted out an interesting first-person analysis of a bullet that could answer soldiers’ call for more stopping power.

As our readers might remember, we reported two weeks ago that a Center for Naval Analyses study obtained by DT found of all the suggested improvements for America’s standard-issued sidearm and carbine, soldiers surveyed said they want a more deadly weapon or round.

CNA pointed out that one answer is off the table: hollow point ammo.

But Woroner took a first-hand look at a type of round that could answer a politics vs. lethality dilemma…

From Dave (it’s a longish entry, but I think you’ll find it worth the read):

Known as the Federal EFMJ for “expanding full metal jacket” the round would appear to be a gift from above to the soldier on the ground. It is fully jacketed, yet expands like a hollow point upon impact.

The basic concept was developed by projectile whiz Tom Burzynski and Larry Head, lead ammo designer for Federal applied some of his magic to bring this bullet to fruition.

So what makes this round so different and special?

Well first of all it is a “full metal jacketed bullet” - this means there is no “cup” at the front as with most hollow points. Standard hollow points work by taking advantage of fluid dynamics - the fluid being the liquid or blood in a target.

While stopping many a fight and still not a bad choice at all, I personally have seen many hollow points “stay intact” - or not expand. The culprit for this has usually been, believe it or not, clothing. When the “cup” or hollow of the bullet is passing through clothing, especially winter type clothing the hollow point can end up filled as it cuts through the material thus preventing expansion.

What’s also pretty cool about the EFMJ bullet is that because it’s fully jacketed, it feeds flawlessly. Anyone who’s spent some time shooting hollow-point ammo has experienced the hollow “lip” catching on the feed ramp of the weapon – forcing an operator to execute “stoppage drills” in the middle of a gunfight.

Besides overcoming the feeding issue, the EFMJ works unlike a typical hollow point on impact. Think for a minute about firing at a target through drywall with a standard hollow point? Nine times out of ten the hollow point will fill up with the powdery drywall.

EFMJ-web.jpg

Now enter the EFMJ. It works by having a piece of encased lead with a tiny nylon/rubber plug. When it strikes its target, it cannot fill up at the front since it’s encased. Instead, it begins to (for lack of a better word) “smush up” the entire round. How it begins its expansion so diametrically opposed to a standard hollow point and its reliance on fluid hydraulics is that the EFMJ operates solely on impact/kinetic input to the front of the bullet.

Part of the manufacturing process of the EFMJ includes creating “cuts” or striations on the inside of the encasing copper. When the bullet impacts, it begins its expansion by impact/blunt force with the “cuts” splitting and allowing the rubber component to continue to flatten. By then it would have entered its target.

Another test I did was to shoot it through plies of standard drywall and it worked great. It penetrated, started its deformation as well. So when it struck the target behind the wall, the bullet was still full of energy, yet almost fully expanded.

Shooting through two pieces of drywall yielded the same result, except it was obvious there was a slight drop off in connecting kinetic energy. You want to be able to shoot through drywall and plywood and still hit something, but you don’t want it going down the block and kill granny sitting out knitting on her front porch.

The penetration I got was very consistent with current kinetic impact understanding and that gave me even more reason to trust this round. To put it quite simply it is harder to shoot through a piece of glass then it is drywall because the glass is more molecularly compact than the drywall.

So when I shot 9mm and 45cal. rounds through each, I was pleasantly surprised to find that although the rounds did penetrate the glass, the expanded as advertised. Having my caliper in back pocket told me that the 9mm expanded to .51 inches and the 45 cal. to .64 inches (all rounds being caught by foam and soft rubber) those numbers are an average for multiple shots on glass. The 9mm in my opinion in straight up head to head performance came out ahead of the .45, I’m sure only because of the higher velocity of the 9mm round.

On the drywall, I found more expansion but not by much, 9mm to .58 and the .45cal to .67 which for either surface, and the energy carried still after impact was surely enough to penetrate a solid 9-10 inches.

It would be super to see our troops carrying the EFMJ in their Beretta, Colt, Kimber, etc. The next thing Federal needs to do is create the same technology in the 5.56 (.223) round, I would be very interested to see the results of that test.

-- David Woroner

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Not to get sidetracked by the legality discussion going on here.
Woroner mentioned in the last sentence of his article about wither or not this "technology" (that of a EFMJ rounds)could be used in the production of 5.56mm rounds. Federal as far as i know does not produce a EFMJ 5.56mm round. however they do produce what appears to be a fully jacketed Hollow point 5.56mm round. from what i understand this would resolve the feeding issue associated with hollow points and auto-loaders. also from my limited experience i would imagine that this round would act on the same principles (that being kinetics energy transfer between the projectiles and target causing the round to expand rather then that of fluid dynamics of the target causing the round to expand) as EFMJ rounds. however this is merely speculation as I neither have the time nor the facility to conduct side by side comparison of these two rounds. if anyone does have the time/facility to do this comparison please post the results.

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Posted by: 121 at November 6, 2007 03:50 AM


using exploding bullets...that is a warcrime,but you are ignoring those rules anyway

Posted by: Darklord at September 10, 2007 05:17 PM


The US is not a signatory of the Hague Convention and is not bound by it.
We can use open tip or soft-point or any type of ammunition we choose. We only choose to abide by the Hague.

The post by David Woroner is correct and the current view by the US Govt.

Posted by: E_M_George at August 22, 2007 07:43 PM


Using standard hollow points would have been a mistake anyway for two distinct reasons. Standard hollow points will often develope errors in loading. You would have to experiment to find a round that likes your feed ramp. Lets face it no one needs a jam in a life or dead situation. The other is penitration and deflection, range is reduced, projectile is more likely to deflect and if light armor penitration was needed you would be in trouble. Work on your aim as to elliminate a threat is the better choise.

Posted by: A.Hoffmann at August 8, 2007 12:21 AM


Dear Personnel,
The Le Hague Convention of 1899 is an interesting document to read, hard to find, but the Times newspaper has published it. As a challenge find it and read it. The Convention also banned torpedoes and Aerial Bombs. The only round that conforms to the convetion was the balle D of the french 8mm lebel rifle. The jacket is supposed to cover the entire round, not just the tip and sides. By definition all ammunition is illegal, but wait there is more. The reason the British had so much trouble with hollow point ammunition around 1895 -1900 is that the jackets separated fron the core in their .303 weapons. Also soft points would be better than FMJ points but again leading is an issue.

Looking forward to discuissions on terminal effects. 1000 misses is not firepower, one hit is. I am a cold war warrior and believe that bigger is better for projectiles, sorry Dr Ruth.

Posted by: David Andrew at June 17, 2007 06:24 PM


A few comments in summary.

Law generally comes from 3 sources: the sovereign (a king, dictator, legislature or constitution), agreement (contracts, treaties), or custom.

In international law, there is generally no sovereign, except by treaty (the UN, International Court of Justice, European Union). Hence, "international law" (such as it is) arises by treaty or custom.

Treaty is usually pretty clear, albeit a matter of interpretation. Custom is sort of a "what goes around, comes around" sort of thing. You treat your friends and enemies as you want to be treated. It's a slightly tarnished golden rule: or maybe, brass, if you're a cynic.

IIRC, our position on the Hague accords has been a practice of observing the ban on bullets that expand or flatten easily, etc. as a matter of custom. We don't want the Russians or Chinese to go there, or sell such weapons to terrorists, so we don't issue such projectiles to our combatants as official policy. We make exceptions for ballistic open tip rounds, and the use of hollowpoints on non-state actors.

All this has been correctly stated by others below. Thank you for your efforts, and please forgive me for rephrasing your work.

The Federal EFMJ probably won't pass muster under Hague. It expands or flattens easily, and has a pierced jacket. It probably can't be official issue, except against non-state actors. Whether that includes various GWOT combatants or not is a separate and very complicated question.

So, DoD probably can't issue EFMJ for GWOT as a matter of official policy. If a few stray rounds make it in theatre in care packages from home, etc., well, shit happens.

There are alternate Hague-compliant bullet designs that avoid the "expand or flatten easily" problem. As a matter of custom, frangible projectiles have been widely used. DoD has type certified frangible projectiles in both 9mm and 5.56mm. IIRC, their use has been reviewed by relevant JAG commands. They are the Mk 254 and 255 (both Mod 0), respectively.

The Mk 254 Mod 0 is a 90 grain flat point 9mm+P. That's still not a .45, but it ain't a .380 either. Ignoring the frangible aspect, wadcutters or flat points should hit harder than round or ogive noses like the current 9mm NATO bullet, albeit with a range penalty.

Reverse ogive designs like the French THV load also carry a range penalty, albeit by design. As a perhaps unintended consequence, they also feature good armor piercing capabilities. The South Africans have had some success with similar designs.

Another possibility is tubular bullets. US patent 4742774 covers a .45 round that was intended to improve the performance of the M1911A1. By some accounts it didn't work; by others, it worked too well. In particular, most manufactured versions had cutting lips for aerodynamic and armor piercing (i.e., cutting Kevlar) purposes. They either cut feed ramps, or overpenetrated. They never made it to general issue. Commercial armor piercing versions (IIRC, the PMC Ultramag) were banned, and/or failed to catch on.

Geco made another tubular round, the "Blitz Action Trauma" or "Action Safety" slug, that worked more or less like a 9mm hollow point.

It shouldn't be too hard to make a non armor piercing tubular round that will decelerate quickly in soft tissue without expanding or flattening. It should be a pretty simple matter of constricting the hollow axis of the projectile so that it lets air through, but not fluid or flesh.

BTW, that results in an aerodynamic structure known as a Busemann biplane. In addition to featuring relatively low drag, it does not produce a sonic boom or crack. There are rumors that a version of such a projectile was developed by the USG for clandestine sniper applications some time ago.

Of course, there are problems with tubular bullets, including accuracy, drift, and the need for an obdurator or sabot to hold launch pressure. The last can be a problem, as its course can be unpredictable at launch. IIRC, the Navy has a patent on a combustible obdurator that burns off at or after the muzzle.

Just a few comments, FWIW.

One more thing. If the greatest weapon on the planet is the human mind, it behooves us to keep it clean, and zeroed. Reading some of the posts on this board, I see filthy gear, and shots all over the range. An article on a bullet design devolved into America and Europe bashing, and all manner of crowing, chest beating, and dick swinging.

None of it was necessary. WADR, in the future let's try to park the trash talk somewhere else.

Posted by: Demophilus at June 13, 2007 02:10 PM


Expanding rounds?

Doesn't that make them easier to get trapped in Kevlar type vests?

Posted by: BrutallyFrank at June 11, 2007 09:29 PM


Brian, Vstress, C-Low et al,

The Taliban meets the requirements to be a declared combatant under the Geneva Conventions which incorporate the Hague Conventions. It had/has a political organisation, it is a disciplined military force with a rank structure, it carries its weapons openely and a recognisable uniform - the black Turban. As they took over Afghanistan they assumed the international agreements of the previous government as did the present Iraqi Goverment. The Geneva Conventions are International Law as the vast majority of nations are singantories to by way of both customary and treaty law.

I have been published on military wounding in a peer reviewed medical journal twice and lectured on it as well. I have no disagreement with the .45ACP being a better round than the 9x19mm against human tissue but its penetration sucks if the opponent has thick webbing etc on. I always believe in double tap upper thoracic and head shots anyway.

The time taken to get a pistol out of a holsetr is the same as clearing an M16/M4. Work on your clearing drills! In the Second World War and onwards very few soldiers carried a back up weapon in case there's jam. Look after your rifle and it will look after you, this assumes a well made rifle and well made ammo which is what the M16/M4 and M855 round are.

Shock waves against human tissue work after 2,700 ft per sec and then on fluid filled organs only - eg bladder, kidney but is poor against the lungs.

If I had Dutch bodyguards in a firefight I'd shoot them first in the calf so they would have to stay and fight. Now Turks die where they stand so I'll take them.

The reason soldiers carry pistols in Iraq and Afghanistan so they don't get captured alive. No one wants their family to see them beheaded on line or their body after being tortured etc. In the North West Froniter of India before the Second World war, the last round was for yourself and you shot a mate if he was captured.

My comments anyway

Posted by: Gi Zhou at June 11, 2007 08:55 PM


That's right - you guys have it all together. Just ask the Bosniaks - particularly the ones who thought Dutch troops would protect them from the Serbs at Srebrenica.

If you can find them, that is. Remember that little war? You know, Europe, went on for six or seven years, still sputters occasionally in Macedonia and Kosovo - right?

Posted by: Nanonymous at June 7, 2007 11:57 AM


What does "if the Europeans get their act together" even mean?

Seriously, what act don't they have together? Is the problem that they aren't contributing enough troops to our wars so that we don't have to throw in so many of our own? Is the problem that they aren't declaring and fighting the wars we want them to?

Because other than that, I can't think of what "getting their act together" means. It certainly can't be meant in the economic sense, since they seem to be doing okay enough in that arena. And they aren't fighting wars with one another any more, so that's not the problem. So what, exactly, do the Europeans need to do to encourage the US to scale back it's worldwide military operations?

Posted by: josephdietrich at June 7, 2007 07:46 AM


While I agree with Noddy on several points that he makes I would like to suggest the following. 1. If the " euopeans" would get their acts together maybe just maybe we here in the USA could go back to being isolationists! I agree things wereso much better for the USA when we did notmeddle in other peoples affairs! Yes I foreign policy and the people running the sow suck! Yes I voted for these clowns. But enough of that.
As for the article about Federals new ammo " great" I am all for hollow points, napalm, and what ever else works in killing the enemy. War is hell! the more brutal it is the less man will want to fight with each other! The Geneva Conventionis old and useless no one adheres to it any way!!

Posted by: Chris Morgan at June 6, 2007 04:20 PM


The Hague Conventions do not apply in this case. The Iraqi insurgents are not signatories to the Hague Conventions, and neither are the Taliban in Afghanistan.

"The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power."

The Taliban and Iraq insurgents are a non-Contracting Power, and thus this provision has ceased to be binding.

We can use hollow points to our heart's content.

Now, whether hollow points are a good decision (their noted difficulty in penetrating bullet-proof vests, etc) is up for grabs. They're perfectly legal, but using them may still be dumb.

It may also be time to rethink certain aspects of the Hague Conventions. Prohibitions on technology from over a century ago may need to be looked at in a new light.

Posted by: Brian at June 6, 2007 02:16 PM


I am being picky in highlighting this fact, sorry, but I'm not a fan of misunderstood terminology.

Fluid dynamics covers all fluids, which also includes gases, ie. air. (aerodynamics is a sub-set of fluid dynamics).

The laws of fluid dynamics also govern things such as shockwaves etc.

Therefore to make a statement that fluid dynamics suddenly become apparent when the round enters a fluid such as blood is wrong.

Fluid dynamics was applicable for the flight of the bullet too, there was just a change in the fluid properties when the round impacted a different material.

Posted by: Vstress at June 6, 2007 11:15 AM


Unfortunately I doubt the Lawyers and especially the other numerous "we are the real enemy" people would allow such rounds, most especially if they were found to be effective. What pisses me off about the Geneva conventions is it’s a one way street. Our enemies totally disregard it and flaunt it yet we must hold our end of the contract. A contract is null and void unless both parties fulfill in good faith their obligations. Our enemies have no benefit or consequence for following or not the Geneva Convention. Our benefit is what a warm fuzzy? We should make it clear that we will hold to the Geneva Convention but if an enemy breaks his end of the bargain we will not be obligated to our end.

I like the idea although it sounds allot like the idea behind the soft tip ammo. Jacket with an open face filled with soft lead hence soft tip. Those things come out looking ugly not as ugly or fragmented as some of your deep hollow points but not pretty either.

Personally I think the 5.56 which is still illegal to use hunting anything larger than a coon with because it doesn't kill, it wounds, is woefully inadequate. In a terrorist/insurgent type warfare were wounded enemy just come back to fight another day, every shot should be either a kill or at least a cripple blow. The 5.56 fails this by all measure (shock wave or not) that is why it is illegal to hunt even mid sized game with because its inhumane to just wound a animal the goal is one shot drop em were they stand.

I think the new wave of frangible bullets are interesting. I don't buy the electro shock to the system or death shock stuff BUT if you blow the flesh off a mans calf he is either permanently crippled to a high degree or very likely to bleed to death. A 5.56 hit to the calf will slow a man down but if it misses the bone it will be negligible. I attached some vids at the bottom pretty cool idea. LeMas I believe is the company

(If you are squeamish don't go to first link its graphic)

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875

(On below vid it’s the blended medal vid (vid is clean seen it a hundred times, and yeah that was a ham that disappears into reddish mist)

http://armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/?s=2003_videos

The more we sanitize war the more war we will have.


Posted by: C-Low at June 6, 2007 10:54 AM


Take a minute and think about it guys. You are dealing with what the "press" tells you. I do not pretend to know about the press in Australia but I do know that the press in the U.S. will tell only the part of the story that sells the most papers or the greatest controversy. I spent a little time and believe that loosing the .45 was a big mistake simply because of the knock down power. Also the troops are getting frightened and excited which causes the expense of more ammo for the same job. This is only one Marine’s opinion.

Posted by: Woddy at June 6, 2007 10:44 AM


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Since then you've managed to get involved in one shitty little war after another, and almost always manage to drag your mates in with you. Americans are useful at finishing wars (eventually), but should never be allowed to start them. The US government clearly is lousy at it.

Oh how I long for a return to the days of American isolationism. That was a good policy for you guys. Nobody attacked you for the better part of your existance because you weren't out causing trouble in the rest of the world. Since WWII various US governments have managed to piss of a large proportion of the worlds population.

Stop it and maybe people will leave you alone.

To get to the point of this thread though, no the round does not comply with the Haggue convention. But then the US isn't at war either, so go for it if you think it'll help. More than likely, as suggested below, the military bean counters will keep issuing FMJ as there's warehouses full of the stuff.

Posted by: Noddy at June 6, 2007 10:28 AM


Back up weapon system Gi Zhou. That's why. Stoppage drills are the last thing I'm gonna due in a fight if I have a back up side arm.

Posted by: Erik at June 6, 2007 10:12 AM


Love the anti-european rhetoric! Makes me wonder why we're allies; we get slagged off by UK based jihadists, the Mahdi Army, the Taliban and now the US of A.
Our guys are dying out in the same countries for the same reasons so drop the attitude.

Posted by: Matt at June 6, 2007 08:22 AM


Seems a lot of esperts here taking things out of context. The US is bound by the hague and geneva Conventions by customary and convention law as a member of the United Nations.

The Black Talon rounds are for counter-terrorist operations not counter-insurgency (Iraq and Afghanistan) except in perhaps a hostage situation. Not for general use on the battlefield. The 'open tip' sniper rounds are for the 300 Winchester Magnum and the 'open tip' is for ballistic issues related to accuracy and does not expand on impact with tissue. The 5.56mm 'wounding' argument is a left over from Vietnam. AThere soldiers were presenting with multiple wounds from under 25 metres wheeras in previous wars they would have died. Doctors were seeing a lot more damage than shots from 50 metres because rifle calibre projectiles fired from rifling take around 25 metres to stabilise in yaw. Finally the 9mm new rounds, which I admitedly have not seen, break the Geneva Convention because they are admitedly designed to cause 'explosive type wounds' on impact with tissue. if yopu want to do this with a round just use a thinner jacket as the Germans and Swedes have done with the 7.62 x 51mm rounds.

The question that should be asked is why are soldiers using 9mm pistols when they have M4 and M16 rifles, shotguns, and the M249. The space and weight of a pistol will give you 90 rounds of 5.56mm. Even though i think the 5.56mm is a crap assault rifle round it is far more lethal and accurate from a M4/M16 than a 9mm from a Beretta.

Posted by: GI Zhou at June 6, 2007 08:09 AM


Johnathan is not Australian and could never hope to be one. Jim Sydney

Posted by: Jim Meade at June 6, 2007 07:57 AM


Niether, I am an Austrailian. If you care to look it up, our country rightly or wrongly is fighting and dying along side you in Iraq and Afghanistan as you read this. So stop your anti-European rhetoric and deal with the issues. What is this anyway...USA Uber Alles?. You can justify anything if you want, torture, detention without trial, secret renditions, concentration camps etc. My direct forefathers died fighting such tyranny. lighten up and respect treaties that are put in place to reduce suffering. A standard 9mm will kill anyone effectively( ask the 32 engineering students who were all killed with 9mm FMJ and .22s). The war was not lost because the standard rounds are not lethal, its simply because as in Vietnam, you can't identify the enemy. its 'warheads on foreheads' any warhead, on the RIGHT forehead. Now thats how you win wars. nothing, not even $110,000,000,000 a year can compensate for that. even a .22 is perfectly adequate if you can do that ( Trust me, I was hit by one when I was 15, it went through my mates neck first before hiting me 2 inches above my eye and nearly killed the both of us).

Maybe if you were shot you would be able to talk with some authority. Trust me, I could have sworn I was hit by a 20mm shell.

anyway what about the inability of holow point rounds to penetrate armour vests?

Posted by: johnathan at June 6, 2007 01:10 AM

You're are talking rubbish Johnathan, you don't even know how to spell Australian. And, we've only had a couple of combat casualties since the war began. Suggest you try passing yourself off as another nationality.

Posted by: Jim Meade at June 6, 2007 07:41 AM


You must be Spanish or French. For your ill informed information, these raghead camel jockey's get treated far better than our own troops do.

Now go sing some kumbaya with Bin Laden will ya.

Posted by: Europe Bites at June 5, 2007 05:38 PM

Niether, I am an Austrailian. If you care to look it up, our country rightly or wrongly is fighting and dying along side you in Iraq and Afghanistan as you read this. So stop your anti-European rhetoric and deal with the issues. What is this anyway...USA Uber Alles?. You can justify anything if you want, torture, detention without trial, secret renditions, concentration camps etc. My direct forefathers died fighting such tyranny. lighten up and respect treaties that are put in place to reduce suffering. A standard 9mm will kill anyone effectively( ask the 32 engineering students who were all killed with 9mm FMJ and .22s). The war was not lost because the standard rounds are not lethal, its simply because as in Vietnam, you can't identify the enemy. its 'warheads on foreheads' any warhead, on the RIGHT forehead. Now thats how you win wars. nothing, not even $110,000,000,000 a year can compensate for that. even a .22 is perfectly adequate if you can do that ( Trust me, I was hit by one when I was 15, it went through my mates neck first before hiting me 2 inches above my eye and nearly killed the both of us).

Maybe if you were shot you would be able to talk with some authority. Trust me, I could have sworn I was hit by a 20mm shell.

anyway what about the inability of holow point rounds to penetrate armour vests?

Posted by: johnathan at June 6, 2007 01:10 AM


Does anyone else think that it seems like JHP ammunition would be more in keeping with the "spirit" of the Geneva convention than the FMJ curently issued? Isn't this whole question about troops complaining that our current ammo wounds without killing more often than it's supposed to? Isn't that unnecessary suffering?

I think if anything the US military has done violates the geneva convention it's the adoption of the 5.56, or at least the change in the M16's rate of twist or the use of 5.56 in shorter barreled platforms with less muzzle energy.

Asking for hollowpoints or new calibers like 6.8SPC is a step in the right direction. Maybe then opponents (who for whatever reason must be killed) could be killed quickly without having to experience several wounds before losing consciousness.

Posted by: Dave Curtis at June 5, 2007 10:45 PM


The point is that the article presents the EFMJ as if it would violate neither the letter nor spirit of the rules of warfare or the Hague, when it infact fits the very exact definitions of what was banned. It is not, as the title states, one answer to hollow-tip bans.

That was the point _I_ tried to make, was a critique on the article itself, not the round, the treaties, or the moralities.

The fact is the US does, and likely will continue to honor the prohibition on expanding ammunition for some time, if for no other reason than they just happen to have lots of FMJ handy.

And there SHOULD be intelligent, reasoned debate by people several pay grades above us as to whether it is viable, if the DOD INSISTS on sticking with the 5.56, to field more lethal ammo for the GWOT, for all the reasons already stated. If a switch it made, go whole hog.

*This specific definition was argued against by the US and UK envoys at the time, who would have prefered a more broader ban on bullets designed to cause undu suffering as stated in other treaties, tham on a specific technology. Was one of the reeasons the Us chose not to sign.

Posted by: mrnitropb at June 5, 2007 10:23 PM


Mr. JD, Thank you for the "lesson" in history & government. The facts you've presented are I will assume correct. Be that as it may, you do state that we do not have to abide by it.
Now is the Genevea Convention, Hague I or Hague II ??? Seems awful strange we would simply "abide" by something these days, doesnt it?
What say you about the round itself and its useage in the M9 rather than FMJ??? Isn't that the real point here? The EFMJ gives us a (thinly veiled)opportunity to up the ammo for our troops and still "appear to be abiding by" whatever...The point is give lethality to the troops whom are asking for it. Let JAG worry themselves over the "perceptions". I for one vote YES on giving our troops EFMJ Ammo. You Sir? YES OR NO ? Look forward to your response, and thank you for engaging.

Posted by: David Woroner, Pres. SCI at June 5, 2007 07:49 PM


"The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power."

I really don't think either Al-Sadr or Al-Qeida are "Contracting Powers", so technically we could use anything we want on them (and should)...

Posted by: Ned at June 5, 2007 07:30 PM


well,Johnathan
I'm sure there are some european forums where you can bash America with your pseudo rhetoric.If you want to "reduce suffering",start in your own backyard.History shows Europe is hardly the leader when it comes to preventing such.

anyways,
On the issue with whichever treaties that would bar us from using such ammo;I say they should be ratified.Theres no use in having such restrictions on weapons and ammunition when your enemy doesn't follow them either.Some of these weapons treaties,with respect to the nuclear,and biological weapons disarmament,are REDICULOUS!

Posted by: Xander at June 5, 2007 05:58 PM


You must be Spanish or French. For your ill informed information, these raghead camel jockey's get treated far better than our own troops do.

Now go sing some kumbaya with Bin Laden will ya.

Posted by: Europe Bites at June 5, 2007 05:38 PM


Jonathan, you wrote-

"Well, you americans have broken every other treaty, including nuclear disarmamnet and the Geneva convention on torture, so what does it matter if youo break another one?. It comes as no suprise to your former supporters. Go for it, just remember what goes around, comes around."


Jonathan WHAT KIND OF CRACK ARE YOU TAKING?!? Yeah, our enemies are crashing airliners into buildings, beheading journalist and disembering prisoners and THE US IS THE BAD GUYS?!?!

Thanks moron-we don't want your support. Oh-I hope you never want out aid either.

Posted by: Max at June 5, 2007 05:36 PM


Well Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllleeee.

Jonathan, did you get your talking points from the self hating libs, Jacques Chirac, or Pukin I mean Putin?

Good way for the communist to blame us for breaking the treaty with new developments, wouldn't you say?

Hopefully us Americans will not assist you Euro-Pee-Ons the next time you all decide you hate each other which is well overdue.

Posted by: Europe Bites at June 5, 2007 05:35 PM


guess in an age where we an precision guide a 500lb bomb into the window of a truck, vaporising the occupants it is very important to not have bullets that will flatten out on impact!?

Posted by: Darren Ykema at June 5, 2007 03:44 PM

Well yes, we know all about bombs vaporising people in trucks, but to the rest of the world, they appear to be American soldiers and they don't seem to need much percision. You just wait untill they drive past because their vehicles are so heavy they can't travel off-road.

Now then, i certainly don't support Allen quada. but then I would not support a country that doesn't respect human rights either. These conventions were brought in to reduce suffering where ever possible. Don't you realise that, or is it OK if the Americans do it? You would be the first to cry, look at the big cry you are having regarding EFPs allegedly from Iran, or the new themboric warheads for the RPGs. What goes around, comes around

Posted by: Johnathan at June 5, 2007 05:34 PM


Well, you americans have broken every other treaty, including nuclear disarmamnet and the Geneva convention on torture, so what does it matter if youo break another one?. It comes as no suprise to your former supporters. Go for it, just remember what goes around, comes around.

Posted by: jonathan at June 5, 2007 05:22 PM


While thats nice you found the Geneva Convention for us all to read the simple fact is that the US Senate never ratified that treaty and as such the United States is not legally bound to it. Go back to college goverment 1301. One will see that just because the executive branch signs a treaty does not mean the US is bound to it in anyway shape or form. For the treaty to be law the US Senate must ratify the treaty as well which they did not in this case; we however follow the "spirit" of the agreement but do not be fooled for one second that we are legally bound to its provisions.

Posted by: JD from Austin at June 5, 2007 04:16 PM


Dear Sir, I always respect others opinions, however, in this case your are mistaken. Allow me to show you "real deal" so to speak. (thank you.)

THE HAGUE CONVENTION & THE UNITED STATES
“Untangling the web”

First Hague Convention, 1868

Based upon the first convention to govern warfare, bullets, projectiles, etc. has always come back to inflicting “suffering”.
Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868.

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
Although not a signatory of this policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one hundred years ago.


What we DID sign later onto was as follows;

ENTERED INTO FORCE: 26 January 1910
IV
CONVENTION RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND
OCTOBER 18th, 1907
SECTION II
HOSTILITIES
CHAPTER I
Means of Injuring the Enemy,
Sieges, and bombardments
Art. 22.
The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.
Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -
To employ poison or poisoned weapons;
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; DW
To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
To declare that no quarter will be given;
To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
DW
To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;
^END EXCERPT (source: Avalon, Yale Law)
JAG, 1985:
23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored by W. Hays Parks3, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major Hugh R. Overholt.

MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition
DATE: 23 September 1985
1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

And Finally, the straw that breaks the camels back!

In 1993, another Parks-authored opinion cleared the way for the U.S. Special Operations Command to procure a Winchester 230-grain JHP ("Black Talon," yet!) for issue with its H&K-manufactured Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol.

You have to admit, W. Hay Parks is a patriot and a soldiers friend!

Well I’ll be doggoned!
Thank you W. Hay Parks & Major Overholt, now pass the ammo!

It has always been a fact that politics and therefore how and what our military gets to utilize or not plays an important role.

To bridge this gap somewhat, looking at all available ammunition, there is a way to walk that thin line. It really should not be so thin, as we have not declared war on anyone. However, this should get some notice, and be followed up on, just out of common sense.

Posted by: David Woroner at June 5, 2007 04:16 PM


Dear Sir, I always respect others opinions, however, in this case your are mistaken. Allow me to show you "real deal" so to speak. (thank you.)

THE HAGUE CONVENTION & THE UNITED STATES
“Untangling the web”

First Hague Convention, 1868

Based upon the first convention to govern warfare, bullets, projectiles, etc. has always come back to inflicting “suffering”.
Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868.

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
Although not a signatory of this policy the United States has acknowledged and respected its applicability in conventional combat operations since its adoption more than one hundred years ago.


What we DID sign later onto was as follows;

ENTERED INTO FORCE: 26 January 1910
IV
CONVENTION RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND
OCTOBER 18th, 1907
SECTION II
HOSTILITIES
CHAPTER I
Means of Injuring the Enemy,
Sieges, and bombardments
Art. 22.
The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.
Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -
To employ poison or poisoned weapons;
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; DW
To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
To declare that no quarter will be given;
To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;
DW
To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;
^END EXCERPT (source: Avalon, Yale Law)
JAG, 1985:
23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored by W. Hays Parks3, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major Hugh R. Overholt.

MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition
DATE: 23 September 1985
1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

And Finally, the straw that breaks the camels back!

In 1993, another Parks-authored opinion cleared the way for the U.S. Special Operations Command to procure a Winchester 230-grain JHP ("Black Talon," yet!) for issue with its H&K-manufactured Mk 23 Mod 0 pistol.

You have to admit, W. Hay Parks is a patriot and a soldiers friend!

Well I’ll be doggoned!
Thank you W. Hay Parks & Major Overholt, now pass the ammo!

It has always been a fact that politics and therefore how and what our military gets to utilize or not plays an important role.

To bridge this gap somewhat, looking at all available ammunition, there is a way to walk that thin line. It really should not be so thin, as we have not declared war on anyone. However, this should get some notice, and be followed up on, just out of common sense.

Posted by: David Woroner, Pres. SCI at June 5, 2007 04:14 PM


I guess in an age where we an precision guide a 500lb bomb into the window of a truck, vaporising the occupants it is very important to not have bullets that will flatten out on impact!?

Posted by: Darren Ykema at June 5, 2007 03:44 PM


what are the manufacturing and cost concerns for these rounds? sounds like a magic bullet, but if it's not deemed "cost effective" (bang for the buck, so to speak) then it's going to stay in the realm of special operators and other units who can pick and choose their gear

Posted by: C at June 5, 2007 03:18 PM


"Declaration III, Hague Convention of 1899:

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers."

that's the direct wrding of the Hague convention that calls for FMJ rounds. Not the geneva accords. For those whos eyes glassed over, heres the pertinant part, again.
"agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Cannot use expanding, flattening, or bullets with a soft points, or the jacket cut (dum dums), or cut. The EFMJ falls uder most of those. It is actualy intednded NOT for military use, but for police and civilian use in precints that are finiky about the use of hollowpoint rounds.

Sorry.

Posted by: mrnitropb at June 5, 2007 02:54 PM


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