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Posted by: 121 at November 6, 2007 03:15 AM

we clearly need a certain minimum number of open ocean (read: nuclear powered) attack boats. Every carrier group should have at least 2 at all times.
this implies 24 ssn's just for carrier duty. 6* 2* 50% time on station.

we also could really use some smaller litoral subs.

but one of the problems is mission creep where the navy is trying to give everything a bazillion missions. in this case they are also supposed to deliver swimmers, and carry a dozen land attack missiles and carry enough torps to take out the whole chinese navy.

what we need is a new generation of attack boats that are as small, and quiet as possible, and have around 8 torpedoes, possibly in external launch tubes (one shot only no reload). that are fast and have good sensors. and a crew of 20-30 and that are litoral capable.
If the result was a non nuclear boat, then by all means lets still have a seperate open ocean force also.

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Posted by: rob at June 29, 2007 05:05 AM

Good Morning Folks,

In response to sgrover,everything you mention is true these and along with numerious unmentioned defects (such as not enought bunks for all the enlisted crewmen to have their own rack to sleep in) in the Los Angeles Class boats, were know in 1979 and nothing has changed in nearly fourty years, doesn't this tell you something, like maybe nobody really cares that we were putting inferior submarines to sea?

Even a man as pasionate about submarines as former CNO Adm. James "...there are submarines and everything else is a target." Watkins can't keep the for more profit American Defense Industry from putting out a shoddy product for Americans to go to war in.

The recent example of the current shortage of avable sumbarines is the recent surfacing of a Chinese diseal sub, for a Kodak Moment and to make some postcards to send to Bejing, with in the Kitty Hawk Battle Group in the Pacific. Although the Group was on a training exercise prior to deployment the fact that it appears that there was no U.S. Attack submarine in the neighborhood is very telling about the current scaracerty of submarines in the U.S. fleet. I have no doubt that Rogue nations or even goups who as considering add submarines to there menu of terrorists weapons took note.

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Posted by: Byron Skinner at June 27, 2007 12:36 PM

@ Davids, Diesel subs are just mines with the potential for human collateral damage. We don't do choke point control, we go through them.

@ Max, By the time you put in a new crappy S6G reactor core, upgrade the sonar, install a VLS system to make the thing useful, and etc. you might as well just buy a new one. 23 years is actually a pretty long time for these things. I did three years on one that was 30 years old and had been through a major overhaul only three years earlier; you wouldn't believe how much stuff broke (and how spectacularly).

Posted by: Jim S at June 26, 2007 09:05 PM

time to first start buying some advanced diseal electric subs. Then start building our own to support our nuclear subs. Advanced conventional subs are a lot cheaper to build and with naval bases in quam, deigo garcia and other bases around the world we would be able to support them.

Posted by: davids at June 26, 2007 01:40 PM

Er, what enemy subs, exactly, are you worrying about? The Russian fleet is a disaster, the Chinese fleet is a primitive joke, the Iranian fleet is worse... are you concerned that the Royal Navy is going to try to burn Washington again or something?

Posted by: ajay at June 26, 2007 01:24 PM

(former surface squid) I can scarcely believe that the Navy is retiring a perfectly good submarine after only 23 years of service. The only way to replace it is to spend probably twice as much or more for another one. How stupid is that? Why not extend the service life of the older subs and just not build new ones as fast if you want to save money? It reminds me of the folly of spending $2,000 every year for a brand new PC just so that you can have all the latest bells and whistles when the old one was working just fine, even if it might have needed a little updating.

Posted by: Max at June 26, 2007 12:57 PM

If we were to suddenly lose all our carriers in some future war, we would still possess these excellent underwater stealth boats to defend the nation, and take the war to the enemy.

Though not a perfect substitute for surface warships, in a future war involving the new precision bombs and cruise missiles, the attack sub may be our last hope for victory.

Posted by: Mike Burleson at June 26, 2007 12:45 PM

"Although the problems with the L.A. Class are many starting with a under powered reactor that hasn't changed in 40 years, the inability to lay under sea mines or to operate under the Polar Ice cap, where Russian Boomer will run in any time of crisis the big item is money."

Wow, the internet must be lagging today. This comment seems to have been posted round about 1979 or so..... One of the early ARPA experimental transmissions, maybe?

"The American pople have to be told and made aware that to maintain and adequate defense structure to maintain our way of life will cost a few bucks. A half trillion defense budget is simply to small buy a factor of 100%."

Beyond parody.

Posted by: sglover at June 26, 2007 12:42 PM

Good Morning Guys,

Although I agree that an attack submarine fleet of 48 boats is way to small, 72-84 attack boats seems to be a more reasonable number baised on current and the projected future world wide profileration of threat, but the Los Angeles Class simply must go.

Although the problems with the L.A. Class are many starting with a under powered reactor that hasn't changed in 40 years, the inability to lay under sea mines or to operate under the Polar Ice cap, where Russian Boomer will run in any time of crisis the big item is money. There Turkies are comming up for refueling at a cost of about $1.5 Billion a pop, thats about 60% of the cost of the far more capable Virginia Class that most likely won't need refueling during the projected 30-40 service life of each boat.

The American pople have to be told and made aware that to maintain and adequate defense structure to maintain our way of life will cost a few bucks. A half trillion defense budget is simply to small buy a factor of 100%.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

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one would suppose that significant progress has been made in underwater, robot forces...unmanned, to take up the slack?

to many quiet boats out there, especially Far East Pacific waters.....

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