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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Why the F-35 Will Smoke the Russians

Our friend Harold Hutchison posted another update to his F-35 coverage over at Strategy Page blog...We've cross posted here.

While the F-35 compares favorably to some of the latest European fighters, the natural question emerges: How does it fare against some of Russia's best, particularly the Su-27/30/33/35 and later versions of the MiG-29?

F35-cockpit.jpg

The Su-27 is roughly equivalent to the F-15. Like the F-15, it started out as an air-superiority fighter. However, as the years went on, it also proved to be very capable at ground attack. There have been very few combat tests of the Su-27 family to date. The only one known of is the Ethiopia/Eritrea conflict in 1999-2000, in which it scored at least five kills. The Su-27 family usually has ten weapons pylons, a 30-millimeter cannon, and a combat radius of 1,500 kilometers. The Su-30 is comparable to the F-15E, and has 12 weapons pylons. The Su-30 has been exported to a number of countries, including Venezuela, India, China, and Malaysia. It is arguably the best fighter that the Russians have been exporting, and one of the best in the world. Algeria is acquiring 28 of these planes.

The MiG-29 is a shorter-range fighter, with six weapons pylons, a 30-millimeter cannon, and a combat radius of 700 kilometers. Like the Su-27 family, it started as an air-superiority fighter/interceptor, but it also proved capable of carrying a lot of air-to-ground ordnance. The MiG-29 is flown by a number of countries, including Poland, Russia, India, North Korea, Cuba, and Iran.

What makes both of these planes interesting is their use of an infra-red tracking system. This is often used with the R-73/AA-11 air-to-air missile. The Archer has a range of 20-40 kilometers, depending on the version, and a 16-pound warhead. Another feature of the missile is the ability to work with a helmet-mounted sight (the missile goes for whatever the pilot is looking at). These are impressive systems, enabling a MiG-29 or Su-27 to get in a shot without having to use radar. Still, will they be enough to get a better chance against the F-35 in a fight?

The F-35 has one big advantage over these fighter families from Russia. Its visability, particularly with regards to its vulnerability to being picked up on radar, is very low. While the infra-red systems are an advantage, these fighters still need to be cued in via an airborne radar plane or a ground station, and they will still have trouble picking up the F-35.

The MiG-29 and Su-27, on the other hand, are much more visible on radar. In essence, the F-35 still retains the advantage it holds over the Eurofighter, Rafale, and Gripen: It will see its targets long before its targets see it. And that will enable it to get in the first shots. With missiles like the AMRAAM and AIM-9X, the F-35 will be very likely to kill its targets before they even know an F-35 is in the area. In essence, the F-35 will have the best Russian planes outperformed, and it gets worse when one realizes that the United States Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps will combine for more F-35s than there are Flankers and Fulcrums in service.

-- Harold Hutchison

Comments

WELL ALL I CAN SAY IS AUSTRALIA HAS SPENT BILLION ON USA RUBBISH AND STILL HASNT GOT AN AIRFORCE OF JETS THAT COULD FIGHT OFF A FLOCK OF SEAGULLS ,WE ALWAYS GET RUBBISH THAT IS HOPELESS FOR OUR NEEDS OF LONG DISTANCE AND WELL ARMED ,TIME WE BUILT OUR OWN I THINK .

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Posted by: luxury watch at April 21, 2009 04:15 AM


Well the newer SU-37 is roughly equal to the Eurofighter and possibly the F35. the su 27 the proginator of the su-37 to begin with is better then the F-15 for these reasons able to go at least 1200 miles with out external fuel stores versus the 700 miles of the F15 so the the su27 can stay on station longer. The russians are rather good at making upgrade packages for their older designs an example would be the mig21-93 package wich is roughly equal to the F18.The Mig 29 has the abiliy to operate from roads when runways are unavailable. If you look at their projects the russians are quite inmpressive in recent years like the SU-47 and Mig 1.44 projects.

Posted by: Chris S at April 2, 2009 02:28 PM


I keep hearing all of this BS about stealth this and stealth that, about how good this thing is as a fighter,and about how the F-35 JSF is such a wonderful high tech ultra modern marvel. Well from what I've seen so far it is just another high tech POS that the air farce (yes I said farce) is trying to shove down the Navy and Marine Corps's throats. High tech is all well and good, but not when it is the driving force behind the purchase of a replacement weapon system. When you replace a weapon you should replace it with a weapon that can perform the GIVEN mission better. Everyone is so fixated on how good of a fighter this this is, what about how versital of a strike aircraft is it????? Remember that this thing is slated to replace the AV-8 Harrier which is a DEDICATED stike aircraft with a secondary fighter capability. You don't replace a strike aircraft with an aircraft that has a strike capability as a SECONDARY capability, that's plain STUPID. Again this just shows the air farce's fixation on air to air engagements as their primary and ONLY concern, and to h_ll with the guys on the ground. I still find it hard to believe that ANY responsible military leader would replace an aircraft that performs a dedicated mission which has capabilities at one level with another that are at a considerablly reduced level just because it is more high tech. It sounds like some kid that just wants to be able to brag about having the most high tech toy, or someone is pocketing some extra money. Either of those scenerios speak VERY poorly of the currnet military leadership.
If they are going to replace the AV-8, the F/A-18, and the F-16 aircraft they should look at the capabilities and characteristics of those aircraft, compare them then evaluate what a replacement aircraft for each one should be able to do to be an IMPROVEMENT over the aircraft it is replacing. I still can't figure out how you can classify the capabilities and mission of ANY other aircraft in the same class as the AV-8 as it is utilized by the US by God Marine Corps. The last I heard the JSF will have a smaller and less diverse weapons load than the AV-8, not be able to operate from as primitive sites, and require a larger maintenance/support crew. Remember, Marine often have to operate well forward of established bases or in areas where the only base facilities they have are what they bring with them. What good is a 2000 Marine Marine Air/Ground Task Force (MAGTF) if you have to increase the percentage of it to over 40% or as high as 60% support personnel. The versitility of a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU)is in it's small, highly mobile size. It's not been uncommon for a MEU to have a fixed wing componet (2-4 Harriers) in the past. With this new JSF that ability to have a fixed wing componet will go away because of it's larger support personnel and equipment requirement and it's inability to operate in primitive forward area staging points. What ever happened to letting the fighters deal with the air to air threats, while the strike aircraft concentrate on ground targets with a SECONDARY air to air ability for self defense?
I once asked 20 air farce F-16 pilots a question and was really suprised by their answer: If you were flying a priority ground support mission to support a ground unit that was about to be over run and saw an enemy transport aircraft flying 10 to 15 miles away, what would you do? ALL but ONE pilot (who had previously been an Army infrantryman) said "I would drop my ground ordinance and go get that kill." This JSF program is just another symptom of the disease. The air farce is so centered on the air to air enviroment that all other missions are secondary.
Another problem with the JSF as currently envisioned. What about the requirement for all Naval Aircraft to has at least two (2) engines/propulsion power plants? Their is a valid reason for that requirement, learned in the crucible of war. If you loose one engine it's a LONG swim back to the carrier. Their are NO emergency airfields available to divert to in MOST of the places where Naval Aviation is called upon to preform their missions.
To sum it up, WHO CARES how the JSF stacks up against the latest foriegn fighter aircraft when it CAN NOT perform the mission of the aircraft it is replacing. Yes, aircraft/pilot survivablity is important, but you CAN NOT win a war/battle if your aircraft don't have any airfields to operate from because they couldn't adaquately support the ground troops who were defending the airfields and the airfield got over run. Remember what many great Generals throughout history have said "tanks (and aircraft) can destroy most any target, but it takes the man on the ground with a rifle to win a battle." The one thing that has allowed the U.S. military to be so successful in the later half of the 20th century is the fact that U.S. forces have had the ability to depend on ground support aircraft to effectively support them. All of this emphasis on the Air to Air abilities of the JSF forget that the aircraft is supposed to be a STRIKE fighter.
The original imputus of the JSF project. to provide a modern platform to replace the aging U.S. aircraft with an aircraft to perform the same missions better. It was also to do so with a single aircraft type to reduce the large amount of different parts required to supply the differnt aircraft types, there by saving long term cost. Whoever came up with the final list of aircraft to be replaced by this one aircraft over reached WAY to much. No one aircraft can possibly replace all of the current aircraft on the list of those to be replaced the the current F-35 project, and still perform the current (or currently envisioned future) missions of all of those aircraft at the same level of mission performance. Not at the level or foreseeable technology levels.
I think it's time to finally scrap the F-35 project or at least scale back what it is intended to accomplish. We need to stop thinking about having more high tech toys than anyone else, and remember that the PRIMARY purpose of military aviation is to support the men on the ground with the rifles. We need to remember the simple question: Which is better to have, an aircraft that when it gets to its target area has plenty of weapons to get the job done and can deliver those weapons on target in any weather conditions day or night or a super high tech aircraft that when it gets to the target has a limited amount of ordinance and is limited in the conditions that it can deliver that ordinance but has a good air to air ability. As a former ground troop I would have been real glad to see a A6E Intruder flying over with ordinance than to see an air farce F15E Strike Eagle, because I knew that A6 had plenty of ordinance onboard that it could deliver with pinpoint accuracy in any weather conditions and a pilot who knew his job was to support me. Where as that air farce pilot was primarily a fighter pilot flying a fighter modified to preform a ground strike mission and needed someone else to provide him with target designation, when he wasn't to busy looking for an air to air target. When are the brass hats going to remember the kids we are sending to war, and their responsibility support them with the BEST equipment to get the job done with the lowest friendly casualties we can. Remeber what General G.S. Patton used to tell his troop:
Your job is not to die for your country. It's to let the other guy die for his.

Posted by: J. Tanner at September 27, 2008 07:38 PM


russian radars-weapons-dogfightingtech-agility-have always been better then western fighters period.

Posted by: military analyst at August 27, 2008 04:34 PM


The F-35 is an excellent fighter but it is on par with current European fighters such as Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen. The F-35 might be on equal terms to the MIG-35. As for the MiG-29, an improved version may held on its own. It all boils down to pilot tactics and using technology which the F-35 may find weakness such as IRST.
In my view, if i was a leader of a country, I wouldnt want to share how my air force works and its tactics on joint exercises. These exercises are an excuse by western military to understand another's country's capability as well as seeking intelligence report on people. By not having exercise, it would prevent possible conflict because of uncertainty. The F-35 maybe a fine fighter but it is not ahead of the European fighters, it is on par. All is said, this is just a PR stunt by those concern. What a publicity. The US has always been a nation of sales people. They have terrific sales pitch to sell their planes.

Posted by: horseman at July 7, 2008 07:51 AM


nice to meet you

Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 16, 2008 04:02 AM


You are quite right Tuomas, this sounded very much like propaganda. The only way to know a superior craft is for the Top gun to pitch its very best using a russing craft against one of its own.

Posted by: Abdul at October 26, 2007 04:39 AM


As for the way the 117 was shot down, some may say that the lit up version you hold to added to the fact that they may have been on the same frequency is a good one. One more problem they seem to have with the configuration is the problem of air flow in heavy humidity or rainy conditions. It seems the radar actually "sees" the hole the plane is in and can actually discern the position and, in this instance, knew they were dealing with a stealth craft. Together, they tried to get as much as they could to sell to the highest bidders (Russia, China, etc.), but it was bombed before much if any of it was taken. The newest in the arsenel is better because of it's inherant design of absorbing radar waves instead of re-directing them.
I am curious about the need for all this considering the UCAV programs other countries will deploy just to get one of our pilots in their hands. I hope our country will use the same initiative to add this program to the table with some if not all the present stealth configurations. I am not happy that the new plane will not have thrust vectoring in the works as this gives the pilot more maneuvering capability and with that more chances of coming back the victor instead of a pile of wreckage and a lost soldier. Maybe one day the pilots will be the last to enter the fray to mop up instead of spear-heading the ops.
If our government has as much weight to bring to bear as our service men and women, we will prevail. If we adhere to our principles and remember to keep our fights on the side of good against evil, we will always prevail. God bless America and Semper Fi.

Posted by: dashinterhund at September 4, 2007 03:02 AM


by the way; the loss of a F-117 over Yugoslavia in 1999 tells nothing about the survivability of other stealth planes.
The F-117 with its polygonal surface design was stealthy by scattering the signal into any direction but not back to the sender.
Other stealth planes etc. use absorption as primary means for stealth (both concepts hide moving objects like turbines).

So how to shoot a F-117 down?

It could have been found and tracked because the shape was probably optimized for other bandwidths. That was often mentioned, but I don't believe it applies to the case.

It's known that the western air forces were in some aspects quite amateurish and used repetitive patterns and routes - and became predictable. So the Serbs knew where to lay the trap and hen to become active.

The F-117 had also no support (SEAD, ECM) - an old justification for stealth planes was that they need no support. Well, the concept failed in that case.

My scenario how it was done:
1. The Serbs built a cluster of radars and sent their radar signals into an airspace from different directions.
2. The F-117 happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (as predicted).
3. The radar signals were scattered away from the senders, but reached other radars that worked on the same frequency.
4. Using passive detection principles they figured out where the plane was and concentrated their radar power on that point.
5. Once tracked it was unable to break contact and the illumination radars simply needed to illuminate from different angles and different radars with high power.
6. A salvo of several missiles raised the chance of hit high enough to finally damage the plane (afaik it was not shot down directly, but damaged. A fighter finished it off).

Posted by: Sven Ortmann at August 26, 2007 07:47 PM


Ah, a reminder why I stopped reading defensetech.org.
Harold Hutchinson has gone onboard.

I already noted more than a year ago how much nonsense and no-news he wrote on Strategypage.com, compeltely devoid of publicly available info on the subject and presenting silly comparisons between equipment all the time ("Best MBT" and the like).

Abot the article; the Su-35 has lots of tricks and some tricks will be added until JDF is coming into play.
The Russians use an active warning system to detect incoming AMRAAMs, for example. That enables them to dodge those not very maneuverable missiles. They can furthermore shoot down an E-3 Sentry AWACS (AEW&C) from about 300km distance, forcing stealth fighters to rely on other radars to pick their targets (theirs, for example).

The Su-27 might have been a F-15 equivalent, the later Su-3x is judged by the publicly available information superior. There's always classified info on such stuff, but there's little reason to expect anyone who comments in public to know the classified info about both designs, so best we can do is to stick t the available info.

The JSF is a fighter-bomber, by the way. It's not an air superiority fighter. He'll have that role for the USN, but there's little reason to expect that its characteristics (incl. stealth) are oriented enough for air combat instead at surviving air defenses.
The Su-35 is a full-blown air superiority fighter with easy-to-have ground attack capabilities (Su-4 is the real ground attacker), and it follows a completely different design philosophy than the U.S. stealth supercruise designs.

Posted by: Sven Ortmann at August 26, 2007 05:17 PM


Kudos to the author for a VERY successful post. I haven't seen so many Computational Electro-Magnetics (CEM)experts gathered in one place since (redacted).

The reference by one commentor to Dr Kopp's spiel is particularly interesting. I seriously doubt Dr. Kopp is in an informed position or has the proper background to make an accurate assessment of the F-35's low observables. If he were, he sure wouldn't give one (a correct one anyway) in public.

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at August 25, 2007 07:41 PM


Few points:
Stealth works when no or very little active electronics is used otherwise it is a different ball game. Similar with multiple platforms in restricted airspace.
Anti AEW&C in future will use UCAV/UAV in passive mode as front guard. Latest conflicts were with country’s with vastly inferior tech and under prolonged embargos (maintenance and update problems) and that will not be always the case.
Su-30 derivatives are heavy machines with payload that can be in future traded for latest EW tech. And contrary to new platforms where R&D time is measured in decades the evolution/revolution in EW will probably continue to deliver new facts on future battlegrounds.


Posted by: Timid observer at August 25, 2007 04:46 PM


Matt: Your comments are very interesting, but your bad spelling makes them hard to read. I suggest you download a spell check for your browser or get a dictionary.

Posted by: Larry at August 25, 2007 03:15 PM


"Why the Messerschmitt Me 262 Will Smoke the Allies." Its Deja Vu all over again.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 25, 2007 02:44 PM


I forgot to mention the Japanese F-2 Fighter which is a licensed copy of the F-16.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 25, 2007 12:29 AM


Yeah,but they are still building & modernizing both F-16s & F-18s,we are just not buying them,only Greece,Poland,Israel,& the U.A.E. are buying these highly upgraded & advanced F-16s for one example.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 25, 2007 12:07 AM


One final reason for building the F-35 is that something is needed to replace all of the aging F-16s, F-18s, and Harriers. Old aircraft lose capability as they age and become increasingly difficult to support. Take a look at early model F-18s: the electronics suites are obsolete, there are fatigue problems in the airframe that impose limits on handling, and many of the parts suppliers have gone out of business or discontinued manufacture of subcomponents. Upgrades get increasingly expensive without completely restoring capability or updating the technology, and re-opening the production line is nearly as expensive as designing a new aircraft. So, we design a new aircraft, and in the process keep the fighter knowledge base alive by passing on experience to a new generation of engineers.

Posted by: George Skinner at August 24, 2007 12:15 PM


First Strike Capability is only good if one's command structure hasn't eliminated it from one's protocol of rules of engagement. Hmmmm? comes down to politics again.

Posted by: scotty at August 24, 2007 10:19 AM


One thing that is certanly overestimated is the value of 'stealth' ,as firstly all stealth aircraft are designed have a small RCS primarily head-on (even small deflections incerease RCS dramaticaly),second the planes are only paritaly stealthy compared to B-2 or F117 and even these aircraft can only operate in airspace with no fighter oposition,and even to do that these aircraft operate with help of of all sorts of suport aircraft ,jammers,fighters,tankers,awacs etc + they opreate on specific rutes avoiding known radar sites,an f117 was shot down in yugoslavia using 60s tehnology.Next big issue is the BWR combat as with every new weapon as new missles are built so are the countermeasures and in is quite posibile if not certain that many misslles can be defeated in near future remember helicopters us varius coutermeasures to defeat shoulder lauched missles ,the same can be done to air launched ones.
F35 is a bomb truck ,and primarily a ground attack plane not a dogfighter ,so it is not comparable to pure dogfighters like SU-27 ,electronics are not everything ,and they are obsolete every couple of years + for BWR you could fit same/beter one to a 747 or Learjet or to an old F4 Phantom but it still wouldnt make it a dogfighter.

Posted by: Mat at August 24, 2007 05:56 AM


If that "[electro-magnetic] window screen &/or screen door" does exist,then it doesn't matter if you are flying stealth(F-22 & B-2),hypersonic(B-70 Valkyrie),UAV,cruise or ballistic missile,or blimp,or even carrier pigeons(or bats with fire bombs attached),its gonna go down.If I heard a "Woodpecker" on the radio,I'd just send an unarmed UAV over towards Iran or wherever just to see if there was anything to a "Tesla Dome" or if it was all just total BS.I'm totally willing to accept the idea of a "Tesla Dome being BS.I mean there has to be a way to detect if an EMP type of weapon was being deployed or about to be deployed without waiting for your own equipment to burn out from the end result.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 24, 2007 12:10 AM


I read an article that the Ukraine has sold Iran an ESM system known as the Kolchuga Passive Sensor which is claimed to be able to pick up stealth aircraft.I'd say that unless the material that the F-22 & the B-2 are both made of is different from the F-117,then there could be some truth to this,especially since Russia could have taken possession of the F-117 wreckage from Serbia,studied & attempted to recreate the material for both their Skat UAV & to attempt to calculate their radar to detect it.Since Russia,along with China are Iran's major ally & supporter,they could have worked with Iran to be able to detect stealth aircraft.This only means that you still need electronic jamming aircraft working in concert with stealth planes.After all it doesn't hurt to wear both a belt AND suspenders.
Of course.....if Russia does have the ability to put up a[n] "[electro-magnetic]screen" figuratively speaking like the screens we have on our windows & doors to keep out bugs.....I mean,we don't wait until we see the bugs & then put the screens up,we have them up already as a precaution.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 23, 2007 11:52 PM


"We used a little innovation to update our 1960s-vintage SAMs to detect the Nighthawk," Dani said. He declined to discuss specifics, saying the exact nature of the modification to the warhead's guidance system remains a military secret.

It involved "electromagnetic waves," was all that Dani — who now owns a small bakery in this sleepy village just north of Belgrade — would divulge.

This what the Serbian commander who was involved with the shoot down of the F-117 over Serbia in 1999.Notice the part about "electromagnetic waves." This was pasted from a USA Today article.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 23, 2007 11:33 PM


Well,Putin is getting money from somewhere to both upgrade weapons & rearm his military.Spacewar.com just released a picture & an article about a stealth UAV that Russia is supposed to have built.
Here is another "sane" conspiracy theory,maybe Clinton allowed that F-117 to get shot down over Serbia.I never heard any stories that the Air Force tried to destroy the wreckage to keep stealth secrets from falling into "enemy" hands.Draw your own conclusions,but that "stealth" UAV called the Skat does have a slight resemblance
to a F-117,nothing obvious,but Russia & Serbia are allies.Of course you could say it slightly looks like a X-47 too.
Back on the electro-magnetic "Tesla Dome" kick,has Russian been using their "Steel Yard" Over-the-Horizon Radar system lately? Its the radar system that made that distinctive "Woodpecker" sound on shortwave radios during the 1980's.I'm asking because I don't have a shortwave radio anymore,but I remember hearing that "Russian Woodpecker" on shortwave radio in Germany when I was stationed there in the 80's.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 23, 2007 11:16 PM


Anyway these Countries lika Russia or anybody else they wish to have the capabilities and money or technology to countermeasure the armed forces of USA in other words they are almost broke

Posted by: Victor M Negrete at August 23, 2007 10:45 PM


Apart from stupidity or ignorance, two of the great pitfalls of analysis are a) jumping to conclusions, or b) tunnel vision. Both are hazards where the subject in controversy is poorly framed.

This article's title was guaranteed to start a dogfight. It's provocative, and X vs. Y comparisons can be interesting, but they very often don't get you too far beyond flame wars on game boards.

Another risk of framing the debate too tightly is, you're guaranteed some off-topic tangents. Like, say, this one. Or ruminations on acoustic air defense systems, or Tesla domes.

IMHO, the more interesting questions are about mission packages or fleet mixes. Forget what the F-35 can do by itself. What can it do with F-22s flying top cover, and UCAVs below? What can they all do running interference for F/A-18s, F-16s, F-15s, Rafales, Gripens, etc., etc., or vice versa?

I'm not sure, but I tend to believe someone gamed that out before they started to bend metal (or, layer composites) on this sucker.

Can a single F-35 lose to a single late model Sukhoi, Mig or European fighter in a one on one engagement? You bet. It depends on the circumstances.

Will a USAF/USN/USMC/allied forces mission package including F-35s lose to possible threats in all foreseeable scenarios, for the foreseeable future? I don't think so. The F-35 may be too much of a jack of all trades to be the best air to air machine for the money, but we've got other ways of skinning that cat.

Why don't we Keep It Simple? If the F-35's more than a match for other modern threats, we should buy it. If it's just barely a match, we pretty much HAVE to buy it, just to maintain parity.

The only argument for not buying it is that it's a POS, and our legacy aircraft are better.

Sorry, I just don't see that.

We started WW I without a single world class combat aircraft. Ditto WW II; the P-40, F4F and P-39 could survive with proper tactics, but we were a little slow on the uptake there, and the P-38, Corsair and P-47 weren't on line, yet. Ditto Korea: the F-86 was just hitting its stride, and it took a little while before we learned how to kill Mig 15s. Ditto Viet Nam; the F-8, F-105 and Phantom were great machines, but we lost some planes and pilots before we really learned how to use them.

By comparison, Gulf War I and II were turkey shoots. Somebody wants to keep it that way, and they think this is the way to do it. On present information, I'm inclined to agree with them.

Posted by: demophilus at August 23, 2007 10:24 PM


How about comparisons with the more maneuverable Su-37 and Su-47 variants? More importantly, it seems the argument's "what ifs" postulate Russia to be the future enemy. That's a reach!

Posted by: Chuck at August 23, 2007 09:13 PM


"Third: The actual shoot-down was with an unguided rocket such as an RPG or IR shoulder fired SAM without a lock."

That's nonsense. The F-117 shootdown has been very well documented. It was an SA-3.

Anyway, on to the topic. Dr. Carlo Kopp did a very detailed study of the F-35 against projected future Flankers (he got those projected future Flankers pretty right, given that the latest Su-35/ T-10BM [not the old canard equipped model Su-27M/Su-35/T-10M, this is an all new bird] was just revealed at the MAKS 07 airshow matched his projections in almost every respect) and it wasn't nearly so simple as "the F-35 won't be seen first so it will win".

But in any event, who cares if the F-35 could match late version Su-27 and MiG-29s? These are not aircraft of remotely the same generation. But I will say that anyone who thinks the procurement numbers for the F-35 are actually going to be close to whats actually purchased is on the wacky-tabbacy.

Posted by: Doz at August 23, 2007 09:05 PM


It also boils down to variables like cost efficiency and press effect, if a US or allied F-35/F-22/Eurofighter is shot down, what do you think the global press coverage will be relative to a “mere” F-16 Falcon, Mig or Sukhoi being shot down? An exponential effect just to push tawdry "gotcha" journalism agendas, stories which readily take a life of their own!

Cost? If you can afford a squadron of retred F-16's or Mig-29's (or their variants) for the price of a four new F-35's, which is truly better?

The Eurofighter (is perhaps the poster child for cost inflation relative to capability), the Typhoon is not stealthy, it is very high performance, yes, but for each Eurofighter ($118 million per aircraft!) one can purchase several F/A-18C's or sizable numbers of Mig-29's (particularly if Moscow cuts a special deal to build ties with your nation so to spite the west), which is better in function then?

Throw in the prospect of being better able to afford other force-multiplying features if you own a few squadrons of Hornets or Mig-29's instead of the more premium gear, you can afford a few more refuelling tankers, this too will immensely change "how" you fight, and most certainly will affect your civilian national leaderships willingness to use these aircraft in combat for one could reasonably argue that many nations (particularly continental European nations) refrain from aggressively deploying overseas in the harder combat areas simply because the embarrassment of the prospect of taking losses, for in socialized economic systems the very existence of these expensive weapons systems is a source of constant criticism and scorn. Spend a billion Euro on fighters that "could have gone to giving children better healthcare" plays back home, lose one of those posh jets?

Sending a few blue-helmeted peacekeepers in Land Rovers is one thing, sending a quarter billion Euro worth of fighters is quite another, for if you lose one (let alone a few) in a "controversial" war, or you have so few to start with due to tight budget constraints and then you dedicate these token few to anything outside the homeland leaving defense gaps at home, you might lose your job as Prime Minister!

Posted by: Bean counters still count at August 23, 2007 06:13 PM


heh heh! (just love playing devils' advocate)

Now, I'm no expert on tech, nor aircraft. my turf is somewhere else, where I AM expert.

All I'm saying, again and again and again is that the wisest response to those who decry a non-tech, simple idea like, oh, elephants over the alps, is:

you either gotta start thinking out of the box, or you'll come home in one.

Posted by: campbell at August 23, 2007 05:32 PM


First: Dogfighting, with each new technology that has come down the pike, experts have proclaimed it dead. Funny thing, at the start of every war since WWI pilots have had to relearn those skills in order to survive. I doubt anything has really changed in the last century!

Second: SOSUS for aircraft using cell phones? That's a hot one! I just barely got myself off the floor from laughing so hard! In theory aucustic detection is possible, but eyes on the ground would be better solution. And that depends on the aircraft (A/C) altitude and speed to work.

Third: the F-117 shoot-down. The notion that an "old style" radar can see them is quite quaint. Stealth depends on the reflectivity of various radar wave lengths or frequencies that are used against it, not the radar type, of which there are currently two. Neither "pulse-doppler" or analog radars have an advantage against stealth. The actual shoot-down was with an unguided rocket such as an RPG or IR shoulder fired SAM without a lock.

Fourth: We do not know whom the F-35 will face in air combat. But it is likely that they will eventually face Russian or Chinesse equipment, hopefully of their current or previous generation fighters. Both countries, as well as India and Japan, have announced that they are developing ingisinously developed fifth generation fighters which will incorporate at least some stealth charactoriztics. Will we be able to use our current missiles against them? I, for one, do not know. If we cannot, what does that leave us to counter them? The only answer is the F-35's gun and that, boys and girls, means DOG-FIGHTING!

Posted by: Majii at August 23, 2007 04:53 PM


The Japanese didn't prevail at Pearl Harbor because they had superior dog fighting skills.

The more clear it becomes that a dog fight is a bad idea, the more attractive alternatives, like pre-emptive attacks on air bases become to adversaries. In the same vein, simple IEDs can make the logistics of supplying forward air strip with fuel and spare parts extremely expensive, limiting the effective size of the force that can be deployed from forward bases. And, until we invent silent strike aircraft, or stealth aircraft that don't need to launch from an ground based air field (and hearing a takeoff doesn't require a spy to get very close to the air base so preventing this possibility is quite difficult), we have another stealth problem. The relatively simple, Serbian used method of having a spy inform people in the likely strike zone that a U.S. plane has taken off from Italy or some other ground based airbase used in operations against them can place a very narrow time window on when people in the strike zone can expect to be hit, allowing them to prepare while spending considerable time in an operational mode during safe intervals.

Also, apparently somebody hasn't woken up to the notion that dog fights with the Russians are not anywhere near the top of the threat list at the moment; they haven't been for the last 18 years. The Russians are busy reassembling their fallen empire in the face of insurgencies and political struggles. The Russians also have a much more powerful weapon with which to threaten Europe -- plumbers with great big wrenches that can shut off the natural gas supply to Europe in the midst of a bitterly cold winter.

Very few of our plausible enemies have advanced weapontry and reasonably well trained pilots. At least two of those plausible enemies -- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, can thank us for that privilege.

China may be gunning to replace Russia as the world's most heavily armed plausible opponent, and does buy and license advanced Russian aircraft, but that doesn't help China stop the biggest threat it faces in its most worrisome possible and plausible military scenario: a sea based invasion of Taiwan. No Russian jet can stop a barrage of anti-ship missiles and torpedoes from sinking a Chinese amphibious fleet.

Posted by: ohwilleke at August 23, 2007 01:14 PM


Sure, stealth works. It simply has limitations like any other technology. A stealthy aircraft has shorter detection range than normal aircraft, but can still be detected. For that reason, the repeated use of the same flight routes by planes attacking Serbia was kind of a giveaway in terms of where to site SAMs in order to increase probability of intercept.

Campbell, I think I first read about acoustic tracking Craig Thomas's novel Firefox. Nice idea, but I think there are going to be some big problems with signal locatization and noise filtering. Sound doesn't propagate nearly as well in air as it does in water, and there's a big difference in the relative speed of sound to target speed that you're trying to attack as well (nuclear submarine, 40 knots/21 m/s, Vsound in water, 1400 m/s. Aircraft, 140 m/s, speed of sound in air, 340 m/s.) That's going to make terminal guidance a big problem for any weapons system. If you just want to detect a target in your airspace, why not go back to the Britain's WW2 observer network?

Posted by: George Skinner at August 23, 2007 01:12 PM


here guys.....you have a "stealthy" aircraft. Ok. I'm the adversary. With no more cost and not much more complexity than a cell phone, I create thousands upon thousands of ACOUSTIC detectors, which I can then "sow" via chopper over vast areas.....which can then listen to you fly over, trangulate and FIND YOU. I can vector fighters in, or throw up SAMs....but I'll get you. You may be totaly invisable to my radar, you may have a smaller infra-red signature...but you cannot hide your acoustics. Period.

SOSUS for subs......same for your vaunted stealth aircraft.

You're toast.

Posted by: campbell at August 23, 2007 12:22 PM


Roy, lay off the drugs man. I'm about to propose a theory, what if, the Chinese, with the help of Atlantis, made an invisible lazer beam that could shoot down anything that it wanted to shoot anywhere in the world with just the mere thought of Edward Gein. If this holds true, obviously the F-35 and 22 will be a waste of our taxpayers money and we will have to re invent the wheel.

Posted by: Mike at August 23, 2007 11:55 AM


Are we really sure that "Stealth" really works. If anybody remembers,a F-117 Nighthawk was shot down over Serbia in the 90's.The Serbians claimed that they used old radar technology(stealth is only supposed to work against the modern radar) to shoot it down. I am about to propose a theory that is totally SciFi,what if,with the help of the Russians,the Serbians were able to erect a type of electro-magnetic field to prevent the F-117 from passing through? I've read articles that the Russians,since Stalin,have been working on Tesla theories that American scientists dismissed as nonsense.One theory is erecting an electro-magnetic field called a "Tesla Dome).If this ACTUALLY existed,then Stealth is useless because this "dome" would knock anything out of the sky.I'm sure there are people here who would think that Tom Bearden(for those who know who he is) is a total nut & maybe Stan Lee has more credibility than him,but lets assume he is right.
The F-22,the F-35,& our UAVs,long with B-2 Bombers would be doomed if this "science fiction" actually turned into "science fact."I'm not going to go into Bearden's other claims which would totally stretch the "credibility" of my question.This "Tesla Dome" doesn't have to see or know that a stealth plane is coming,it just has to be erected prophyllactically to stop ANYTHING from passing through.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 23, 2007 11:25 AM


I have a sneaky feeling that any prospective air combat opponent of the U.S. is going to take advantage of BVR targeting restrictions (at least during the initial phases of a conflict) to score some easy kills. In the initial stages of an honest-to-Bob war it seems almost a given that U.S. pilots will be required for political reasons to visually ID targets before firing. The conclusion is left to the reader as an exercise.

Posted by: TrustButVerify at August 23, 2007 10:40 AM


Isn't Harold repeating the same argument over again - that stealth makes the F-35 better than non-stealthy jets? He's repeating the same thing he said about the F-35 against the Rafale or Eurofighter.

Posted by: Benjamin Fan at August 23, 2007 09:53 AM


hehe, that last paragraph reads like a wishful prayer ;)

Posted by: fronten at August 23, 2007 09:47 AM


I think what the Americans have forgot is that Russia is working on plasma stealth technology.Besides,an F-22 or F-35 only plus point is its stealth.If a SU-35 or a SU-47 acquires stealth,then western fighter aircrafts will be matchless against their agility,manueverability.

Posted by: Bhareth at August 23, 2007 07:48 AM



It's sad to see so much effort going into justifying this kind of billion-dollar dinosaur.

Maybe we should be concentrating on systems that can actually win future wars of the type we're likely to be involved in? Or does anyone think the F-35 would have made any difference?

Posted by: Wembley at August 23, 2007 06:52 AM


There's a lot of uncertainty as to what the Indian Su-30 vs. US F-15 exercises actually demonstrated. The US F-15s had a lot of restrictions placed on their employment that sharply limited their effectiveness. This was largely to prevent others from gathering intelligence on the full capabilities of the platform, but of course, who knows if the Indians didn't do the same with their Su-30s? The USAF also had motivation to "demonstrate" the inadequacy of the current F-15 force in order to justify more F-22 orders.

The dogfighting capabilities of the latest Russian fighters are highly over-rated. With the new generation of helmet-targeted off-boresight short range missiles, the game is more about seeing the enemy first rather than turning- and burning with them. I'm also not convinced of the value of thrust vectoring. The US and Britain have had quite a bit of experience with thrust vectoring over the years (Harrier, F-15 SMTD, X-31, F-22), but still don't bother incorporating it on the latest generation of fighters. Even the ATF competition ended up dumping the requirements for thrust vectoring by the time of the flyoff, although the F-22 retained it anyway. This indicates that it's not all that it's cracked up to be.

Posted by: George Skinner at August 23, 2007 12:05 AM


Saying that the SU-27/30/33/34/35 are roughly equal to the F-16 or F-15 is not accurate.

Both American F-16's and F-15's have come up against the Indian Air Force SU-30 in mock combat and have lost! in

This family of Russian aircraft have evolved into dog-fighting champs with canards and thrust vectoring engines (which have not been taken seriously by the various US Aerospace firms).

Furthermore, AESA radar prototypes are already flying and in development for this family of Russian aircraft and with this technology the F-35 will not be invisible even with it's stealth technology.

The only US fighter aircraft capable of fighting it out at close range with the SU-30 is the F-22 Raptor which is a true air-dominance fighter .

The F-35 does not have the stealth, power (supercruise ability), or range to engage SU-30 as a fighter aircraft. It's AESA radar will not have the range to detect or fight beyond visual range weapons fielded by the Russian planes and it will have to be supported and protected by F-22 Raptor.

The US Navy is making F-35C it's front line fighter aircraft. This will seriously jeopardize naval carrier operations in the future when dealing with the many nations now flying the SU 27/30 variants.

Posted by: S. Foster at August 22, 2007 11:10 PM


Saying that the SU-27/30/33/34/35 are roughly equal to the F-16 or F-15 is not accurate.

Both American F-16's and F-15's have come up against the Indian Air Force SU-30 in mock combat and have lost! in

This family of Russian aircraft have evolved into dog-fighting champs with canards and thrust vectoring engines (which have not been taken seriously by the various US Aerospace firms).

Furthermore, AESA radar prototypes are already flying and in development for this family of Russian aircraft and with this technology the F-35 will not be invisible even with it's stealth technology.

The only US fighter aircraft capable of fighting it out at close range with the SU-30 is the F-22 Raptor which is a true air-dominance fighter .

The F-35 does not have the stealth, power (supercruise ability), or range to engage SU-30 as a fighter aircraft. It's AESA radar will not have the range to detect or fight beyond visual range weapons fielded by the Russian planes and it will have to be supported and protected by F-22 Raptor.

The US Navy is making F-35C it's front line fighter aircraft. This will seriously jeopardize naval carrier operations in the future when dealing with the many nations now flying the SU 27/30 variants.

Posted by: S. Foster at August 22, 2007 11:08 PM


Retire the U.S. Army,Navy,& Marine Corps,the Coast Guard,we don't need them any more.We have F-22s & UAVs. No more tanks,no more aircraft carriers,no more submarines,Why? We have F-22s & UAVs. Stand Down Gitmo(its not just a prison) & give the keys back to Cuba.You know why,we have F-22s & UAVs,woohoo.Russia,China,& Iran,your ICBMs & submarines have no effect on us,we have F-22s & UAVs,Bwahahahahahaha.We can retire our military lift aircraft,our helicopters,& in fact every other aircraft & weapons systems except for our F-22s & UAVs(we can even have a "UAV" air refueler).

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 22, 2007 10:09 PM


With a combination of attitudes like "the cold war's over(which I guess means we're living in peace & safety in a Kumbiya world),""we don't need new fighter aircraft because there's no fighter jets to threaten what we have now,""We can retire our old fighter jets(like the F-4 Phantom,F-14 Tomcat,A-6 Intruder,F-117 Nighthawk,& the AIM-54 Phoenix Missile) because 'the cold war's over,kumbiyah',"We have [a token amount of] the F-22 Raptor 'Stealth' jets & [we promise] UAVs(even the kind that fire weapons)." All together,this all adds up to "We're disarming the U.S. Military to integrate it into the U.N. & the New World Order,Kumbiyah."

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 22, 2007 09:40 PM


Interesting, and what's this about F-35 "comparing favorably to some of the European fighters."? That means, not so favorably to others? I didn't think they were all that great, but I am impressed with the Typhoon as I can watch on video, and the Gripen which I have seen in flight. It seems typical of the Russians to have the bigger bore cannon. Is that better than having more 20-25mm rounds, or not?

Posted by: Neil B. at August 22, 2007 08:29 PM


I would recommend looking at Carlo Kopp's analysis at Air Power Australia:

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

Scroll down to "Su-30 vs RAAF Alternatives":

Many visitors will be asking the obvious question of how the Sukhois stack up against the F/A-18A HUG, the JSF panacea and recently proposed interim fighters such as the F/A-18E/F.

Against all three types the Su-30 derivatives, especially with later engine subtypes, will always have a significant kinematic advantage - there is no substitute for thrust in the kinematic performance game. There is another factor to consider here, which is the superlative 10 tonnes of internal drag free fuel the Sukhoi carries. When not operating at extended combat radii, the Sukhoi driver has more fuel to convert into energy, and that energy can nearly always be used to an advantage.

With mutually competitive WVR missiles and Helmet Mounted Sights/Displays for close-in combat, all three types will live or die in a close in engagement with an advanced Su-30MK variant by pilot ability and good or bad luck. The Sukhoi combines high alpha manoeuvre capabilities with excellent thrust/weight performance, and is apt to have an energy advantage entering and prosecuting a close in fight. A JSF driver opting to engage a thrust vectoring late model Su-30MK in a knife fight may not survive to speak of the experience, unless the Sukhoi driver is unable to exploit his advantage properly.

In close in air combat terms the JSF qualifies as 'double inferior' against the later model Sukhois, since the Sukhois have an advantage in both thrust/weight ratio and in wing loading (interested visitors refer R.L. Shaw's Fighter Combat), and with its canard and thrust vectoring capability will generally be able to gain a firing solution quicker. Because the JSF is designed within the kinematic performance class of the F/A-18 and F-16, it is right in the middle of the performance envelope of aircraft the Sukhoi was designed to kill.

In Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat, the Sukhoi will again have a kinematic advantage, which may be exploitable at the bounds of engagement radii, as the Sukhoi can gain separation in and out of the missile envelope of the F/A-18's and JSF faster - it has the extra thrust and combat fuel to play kinematic games both smaller fighters cannot.

The BVR game is however dominated by sensor capabilities, both onboard and offboard the fighters, and long range missile capabilities. The F/A-18A HUG is wholly outclassed by an Su-30MK with an N011M phased array and R-77M ramjet missile. A late model F/A-18E with minimal external stores and the APG-79 AESA fares much better due to its radar signature reduction measures and better radar power-aperture performance, but with external stores its margin of survivability is eroded and it is likely to fall well within the engagement envelope of the Sukhoi and also come to grief (refer radar/missile plot). A post 2010 AESA equipped Sukhoi could almost certainly take on the F/A-18E with confidence as it will have much better power-aperture capability in the radar, enough to offset the radar signature reduction measures in the F/A-18E/F, with an advanced IRST to supplement radar data.

A clean JSF will have the advantage of a very low X-band radar signature in the forward quarter which will significantly degrade the Sukhoi's otherwise overwhelming radar power-aperture advantage over other types. However, the JSF is not designed to be a hot supersonic performer and like the F/A-18s will need to generously use afterburner to effect an intercept against a rapidly penetrating Sukhoi.

This exposes the JSF to detection and tracking by a newer technology IRST, and engagement by a long burn heatseeking or optically guided AAMs such as the R-27ET, R-77T or likely future variants with imaging seekers analogous to the AIM-9R and ASRAAM seekers. With the latter seekers an R-77/R-77M acquires many of the capabilities of the RAAF's superlative ASRAAM, especially jam resistance, but in a long range missile with datalink midcourse guidance. A new two-colour infrared seeker with 10.8 nautical mile acquisition range has been announced by the Arsenal infrared systems house, ostensibly for use on the R-77 series. Professionals might contemplate that these are not 1980s 36T series seekers.

Russia and the Ukraine have a competent infrared systems industry - e.g. Cyclone JSC recently described their QWIP single chip thermal imagers with 128x128 and 320x256 resolution, competitive against the latest EU technology and suitable for missile seekers and thermal imaging IRST detectors. Therefore an advanced derivative of the OLS-30/31 series with capabilities similar to the Eurofighter PIRATE thermal imaging IRST, but with better detection range, will be implementable with Russian hardware in the latter half of this decade given the current rate of evolution.

In the beam and aft sectors the JSF may be also quite vulnerable to an active or semiactive radar guided missile shot - its beam and aft sector radar signature reduction is much less refined than that in the forward sector. Another factor for the JSF is its radar emission - making it vulnerable to a long range shot with an anti-radiation seeker equipped R-27P, R-27EP, R-77P or when eventually deployed, ramjet R-77MP. While some Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) techniques may reduce vulnerability to anti-radiation missiles, radar modes for closing missile shots typically require high update rates and favour the anti-radiation seeker. Since the R-77/R-77M has a midcourse inertial package - Agat are developing FOG (fibre) gyro technology to avoid dependency on Western Ring Laser Gyro technology - transient loss of the JSF radar emission may not defeat the R-77P/R-77MP - or late model R-27P/EP.

Soviet and more recent Russian BVR doctrine has always emphasised firing pairs of missiles, one with heat-seeking guidance and one with radar guidance, to defeat countermeasures. With the option of active radar, heat-seeking and anti-radiation seekers, and by the end of the decade an imaging seeker, the result is a very lethal cocktail from a defensive countemeasures perspective - a defending fighter may only have datalink transmissions to provide warning and no indication of the seeker mix on the inbound missiles. With three of the four seeker technologies passive defeating such weapons is not trivial.

On publicly available data the JSF is likely to be detected and engaged by an N011M ESA equipped Su-30 inside the 10 to 20 nautical miles head on range envelope, unless the JSF can get the first shot off and successfully kill the Sukhoi. If the Sukhoi can close with the JSF, all bets are off on the JSF's ability to survive the close in engagement.

A view commonly heard in Canberra these days is that the use of the Wedgetail AEW&C to provide offboard targeting for the JSF will provide a decisive advantage over the Sukhois - 'Network Centric Warfare' will ostensibly offset all other deficiencies in the force structure and platform capabilities. This argument is clearly contingent upon a great many 'ifs' - if the Sukhois do not shoot very long range missiles at the Wedgetail to force it to shut down or indeed kill it, if the Wedgetail MESA is not jammed, if the JTIDS/MIDS or other datalinks to the fighters are not jammed, if the Sukhois are not carrying advanced IRSTs or X-band homing receivers, and if the Sukhois are not supported by HF or low VHF band radars.

If a JSF were deployed in 2005 with a supporting Wedgetail and existing Su-30 capabilities, then the argument probably holds most of the time. However, in a post 2010 environment it is most likely not going to hold up most of the time.

If Iraq could acquire smuggled Russian GPS jammers during a UN arms embargo, there is no guarantee that equipment like high power L-band jammers, advanced IRST, ESM receivers, long range ramjet powered anti-radiation missiles and low band radars will not proliferate into the region - the Kh-31P has been already been reported in use with the PLA-AF. Given the mistrust of the US and its allies we see in many regional players, be it the PRC or lesser nations, the odds are very good that the existing trend will persist and the most advanced Russian hardware, and indigenous equipment, will be widely used.

While this will not put a dent into the US Air Force's stealthy supercruising F-22A fleet, it is likely to make life very difficult for the USN with a planned force structure of F/A-18E/Fs and JSFs. If the RAAF opts for the JSF as its single type solution, and F/A-18F as an interim types, it is likely to experience similar grief.

In the long term the Russians will find a growing market for 'Counter-ISR' weapons - the 215 nautical mile R-172, 160 nautical mile R-37 and 60 nautical mile Kh-31 series. In any engagement against a Western air force, the first wave of Sukhois would shoot long range 'AWACS-killer' weapons such as the R-172, R-37, Kh-31 - or types as yet unknown - to either destroy the AEW&C/AWACS or force it to shut down and retreat - the 'AWACS-killer' theme is frequently seen in Russian marketing literature , statements and more recently promotoional video footage. The result is that forward defending CAPs have to then light up their radars to attempt to function autonomously - in turn making them vulnerable to detection by ESM and shots by anti-radiation missiles like the R-27EP or R-77P/MP. This Russian doctrine of a deluge of long range missiles is not new - it is a variation on their proven theme of attacking naval task forces with long range missiles. It is an evolutionary adaption to the growing dependency of Western air forces on large and vulnerable ISR platforms - the E-3 AWACS, RC-135V/W Rivet Joint, E-8 JSTARS, E-10 MC2A and of course the RAAF's new Wedgetail.
The reality is that of an evolving technological landscape in which advanced conventional weapons and supporting technologies proliferate often very rapidly. The rate of Su-30 uptake in the region is a good case study - any nation with the cash can acquire very quickly large numbers of top-tier combat aircraft often with the latest Western avionics and Russian weapons and sensors fitted.

Posted by: Enoch at August 22, 2007 08:10 PM


The Russian and Chinese 5th generation fighters don't exist yet, and are probably a long time coming. Russia has built a couple of technology demonstrators, but those are about as close to a production fighter as the YF-22 (or maybe even F-15/SMTD) was to a production F-22. There's not a lot of information on the latest Chinese fighters like the J-10, but it looks more like a 4th gen fighter (uncannily similar to the IAI Lavi, actually.)

It's also interesting to note that the US fighters are the only ones in the world to make heavy use of stealth technology. France has got some low observability features in the Rafale, but that's more like the B-1B bomber of the early 1980s. Assuming stealth won't be easily defeated by new technology, that's got to be a big advantage.

One last thought, and kind of off-topic: has anybody else noticed that just about all of the current generation European, Russian, and Chinese fighters bear similar characteristics to the advanced fighter technologies in the F-16 AFTI and F-15 SMTD demonstrators of the 1980s? Back then, canards and thrust vectoring seemed de rigeur for any new fighter. Then the ATF came along, and suddenly the name of the game was stealth, supercruise, and a quantum leap in electronics integration. Not being a military analyst or aerospace engineer, I'm not sure if this is accurate, but it just feels like the US fighter design paradigm is always at least 1/2 - 1 generations in technology ahead of the rest of the world.

Posted by: George Skinner at August 22, 2007 04:36 PM


Great- it will beat 20 year old fighters 3-5 years from now-

What about the Russian/Chinese 5th generation fighters?

Posted by: Mastro at August 22, 2007 03:50 PM


Without getting into the numbers game re: the F-35 and the MiG-29/Su-27 families' visibility, there's one factor that is missing from the above article. The primary advantage cited in the above is the F-35's stealth combined with long reach, in the form of the AMRAAM/AIM-9X. The problem is that even in wartime (DS I/II), the US has been reluctant to allow full use of OTH attack options for fear of either mistaken identity or target discrimination, often requiring U.S. pilots to close to well within AMRAAM range in order to engage targets.

This is not capricious; in the case of incidents outside of war, there is enormous pressure to be sure of target intentions and ID so as not to 'jump the gun'. In wartime where the U.S. has notional air superiority, or at the least a very very large friendly air presence, friendly fire mishaps have resonated strongly. Other than missions where the targets are known in advance and the US assets are sent in with prior targeting information, I'd be curious to know how often the full reach of the systems mentioned is used. If the answer is 'not that often' then how does the F-35 fare?

Posted by: The Phantom Analyst at August 22, 2007 03:08 PM


Malaysia also flies the Mig 29. I regularly watch them train out of Subang airport in KL.

Posted by: j house at August 22, 2007 02:42 PM


Hey

No offence, but I used to read strategypage a lot couple of years a go, nut I noticed that it is so hugely biased towards USA (this is just a feeling, no evidence) that it feels like propaganda tool. This article is very usual to SP style of which is better this or that.

So the Press Release is what I feel too.

Just my 5 cents.

TH

Posted by: Tuomas H at August 22, 2007 02:26 PM


Why does this read like a Lockheed-Martin press release?

Posted by: Pat Flannery at August 22, 2007 01:50 PM


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