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Posted by: patriot at October 26, 2007 08:24 PM

Found this new story from a local news station. Who says money is not a major factor in this whole thing?

By Erika Razo
Controversy surrounding the body armor supplied to American troops continues to deepen, as the former c.e.o. of the military's top producer of interceptor body armor is being indicted on charges of fraud, insider trading, and tax evasion.

The F-B-I says it is a case that is “fundamentally about "greed, excess, and deceit."

The arrest could benefit Fresno-based Pinnacle Armor, which has long maintained that corruption on the national level has kept its Dragon Skin body armor from getting a fair shot.

David h. Brooks made a fortune for DHB industries, the #1 producer of the body armor that protects the lives of American troops.

According to a 21-count indictment, he couldn't keep his hands off the money.

Brooks is said to have looted company funds to buy his family a $101,500 armored vehicle, a $101,190 belt buckle studded with jewels, and a $10,000,000 birthday party for his teenage daughter.

Retired Marine LT. Col. Roger Charles - president of the defense watchdog group "oldiers for the truth" - says this indictment should raise questions about Brooks' influence on Capitol Hill.

"Did he have lobbyists in Washington? Who were they? Did any members of congress attend these extravagant parties that Brooks threw?"

Brooks resigned from DHB industries in 2006.

The company changed its name to “Point Blank Solutions” earlier this month, and it remains one of the pentagon's top suppliers of interceptor armor.

As Point Blank retains its favored position, pinnacle armor continues to struggle for recognition of its dragon skin ballistic vests.

Today pinnacle armor provided ksee 24 news with a brief statement on Brooks' arrest.

"We're hoping this sheds light on what's going on in the procurement arena of the department of defense," said a company spokesperson.

Prosecutors say Brooks' crimes are so extensive, they're discovering new cases of fraud against him about once every two months.

Along with brooks, DHB's former chief operating officer is also being charged.

If convicted, they each face up to 75 years in prison and a combined 190-million dollars in fines.

both are pleading not guilty.

To see in original context, go here:

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/10829351.html

Posted by: patriot at October 26, 2007 08:20 PM

Patriot,
I know the weights of several Dragon Skin configurations. It was you who didn’t know. So I say again: They are always heavier than an equally sized IBA.

Air Force: That they didn’t break any written contract thus false labelling and not meeting the promised protection is in my eyes a result of poor procurement. That doesn’t improve their product nor their behaviour.

Posted by: dean at October 21, 2007 03:48 AM

dean,

I already explained by quoting Air Force testimony that DS did not fail written specifications. Yeah it was falsley labeled, but that has nothing to do with the ballistic characteristics of the vests. The argument here is did it fail NIJ level 3 testing done by the Air Force. The answer is no.

As far as weight is concered, call Pinnacle and ask them how much the vairous sizes of DS panels weigh.

Posted by: patriot at October 9, 2007 07:04 PM

Patriot,
you say the weight of Dragon Skin depends on size and configuration. Thus that you quote Pinnacle’s homepage that a SOV3000 with a large tactical panel weights 17,2lb. I’ve been aware of that information but it is irrelevant. Why? In this case large doesn’t mean the size of the panel, it’s the name of the insert. There is no size given. I guess it is S or XS. Why? Well, when you count up the coverage given by full torso against the large tactical panel (relations are on their page) with the given weight SOV3000 full torso wrap would weight about 23lb. Sounds great, huh? Sadly in Pinnacle’s “rebuttal to unofficial Army info paper” it is said that L Full torso wrap weights 41lb. That is somehow a difference. All you have to do is some thinking about the stuff you are reading and presenting as a “fact”.
So I wonder again what you want: Overweight full torso wrap or a heavier version of the coverage option offered by IBA?
And in how far is the ballistic performance of Dragon Skin better than IBA? In temperate climate SOV3000 should own a higher multi hit capability, you right there. But that was never classified by anyone. So, what data about SOV3000 was classified by the Army? The Army classifies information about ballistic performance of ESAPI because otherwise they could hand out lists with ammunition that penetrates currently used body armor. That is classified, nothing else. Also the results of Dragon Skin testing were released this year.

About Air Force testing: Yes, they didn’t break any contract. But it was bought “off the shelf” because of the NIJ certification. NIJ certification wasn’t approved back than and its protection relied on the word of the producer. But lying about NIJ and test firing showed that the word of the producer wasn’t worth anything. So SOV2000 was taken out of service. End of story.

Posted by: dean at October 5, 2007 04:29 AM

Dean,

The information I posted was not off a pinnacle press release it is off of Mr. Douglas Thomas' written testimony for the HASC. If you would like see for youself, take a look:
http://armedservices.house.gov/pdfs/FC060607/Thomas_Testimony060607.pdf

and yes this is relevant, because according to the information in this testimony, defeating 6 shots is pass, if you will look you will see he says it was penetrated "after six shots"

The Air Force said they were given verbal assurance that the SOV 2000 would stop specific level 4 theats. Verbal anything in business most often means nothing and carries no weight in a situation like this. On the other side I will say that Pinnacle's claim that they were given verbal permission to label their armor level 3 should be disregarded as well.

I am presenting facts on my posts, you on the other hand are simply speculating and forming your own conclusions based on those speculations.

I cannot speak about the false labeling about DS except that it happened. Why they did it? I have no idea but it happend, so slap them on the wrist and get on with it.
Also the weight of the SOV 3000 DS is listed on the website:
"The SOV-3000™ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed. The SOV-3000™ is manufactured with a ceramic composite."
all you have to do is look

To answer your question about advantages of DS over the current system, well to the best of my understanding the ballistic performace with respect to the weight of the system is apparently what the big deal is and why the Army classifed data on the SOV 3000 a few years ago.

Traslation: apparently Interceptor and DS are close in weight, but the ballistic peformance of DS is so much better than Interceptor that the data was classified by the Army.

Posted by: patriot at October 5, 2007 12:29 AM

Patriot,
I wonder what you want to proof. There is absolutely no doubt that a full torso wrap SOV3000 is between 10 and 20lb heavier (depending on sizes) than an IBA with side plates. So do you want full torso wrap? Then your load rises dramatically. Or do you want a Dragon Skin with same coverage like IBA? Maybe you can explain the advantage over the current system for me because I hardly understand why someone should carry 5lb or so more (side plates!) with nearly same protection.

And as you personally have no info about weights: The weight of SOV3000 panels vanished on Pinnacle’s homepage when the circus began. The information before was SOV2000 weight+ ~ 50%. That makes a 10x12 panel about 2lb heavier than a 10x12 IBA plate (ESAPI). Or compare with some other level IV plates: New level 4 plates that can take 6 hits in a 1” spacing weight 4,7 lb. That is less than a SOV2000 panel. So please tell me again that DS is not overweight.

Your Pinnacle press releases about Air Force testing are somehow irrelevant. During the big rush for BA the Air Force wanted to buy a limited number of vests off the shelf. That means they didn’t want to take care off large scale testing or development. So they bought Dragon Skin because it was said that it was NIJ certified and even exceeded their standards. Sadly the Air Force guys were too stupid to check out NIJ certifications and during test firing their SOV2000 did not stop those rounds that they were advertised to do. As a result Dragon Skin wasn’t used any more, because the quality of the vests was not NIJ controlled and Pinnacle’s claims about its protection were obviously false.

Posted by: dean at October 4, 2007 06:10 AM

I'm a lobbyist for Interceptor Vest & yes indeed,Dragon Skin sucks,just like a Ford man will tell you that Chevy sucks & vice versa.Keep giving Interceptor vests to our troops,air "persons(I'm trying to be politically correct)," sailors,& marines.Meanwhile,when I fly to Iraq & Afghanistan,I'll continue to wear my Dragon Skin vest because I'm the most important man in the world & I deserve to live(I just make sure that no boy scout troopers are on any plane I fly on to make sure that if the plane goes down,I'm grabbing the "real" parachute & not one of the boy scouts' rucksack,because I'm the most important man in the world & I deserve to live.Secret Masonic handshake).

Posted by: Roy Smith at October 1, 2007 03:13 PM

That is pretty interesting Patriot. I talked to Karl Masters on a web forum. He said that from now they are going to x-ray scalar armor, dragon skin like armor, after eviromental conditioning and shoot where they see failures. I wonder if they will x-ray sapi plates and shoot at cracks too? no idea maybe. Also to reiterate shooting where there is not intended to be rifle protection and calling it a failure needs to be reviewed that is very messed up.

Also I have found no evidence that Dragon Skin Failed any physical test of the NIJ. according to the NIJ dragon skins owners failed to provide adequate evidence it would survive it's 6 years warranties. Eventhough I have seen other reports that they tested 5-6 and a half year old vests at one of the two NIJ testing facilities and the vests passed but that wasn't good enough evidence as that was provided to the NIJ.

So it seems that pertaining to the NIJ, pencil pushers said other pencil pushers couldn't convince them with written evidence but no one at NIJ bothered to just test old vests. Somone show me where Dragon Skin failed an actual bullet test conducted by the NIJ and I will start to trust these type of guys more. They want their jobs. And look what shinseki got for rocking the boat and the reports from Brigadier General Mark Scheid's recollection about Donald Rumsfeld's response when Scheid said they ought to think about doing some postwar planning in Iraq: "I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that."

I am not saying they are going to put people in war with stuff that doesn't work, eventhough the m16 in it's start didn't have the best field data. But the thought of admitting they don't have the best and having to refit everyone for 20 percent better? 50 percent better? They said they wouldn't replace the M16 unless the replacement was 100 percent better. I mean does that really mean that someting 20 percent lights 20 percent more range and 50 percent better stopping power was still just 90 percent better and failed? Oh right yes because they decided exploding ammunition was the only thing that would make replacing the m16 worth it.

All that being said a lot of soldiers think the IBA is too heavy. I have read about generals asking if they can leave the side plates at home when the area of operation is calming down.

Posted by: txzen at September 30, 2007 12:10 PM

It is somewhat humorous to see people comment on the weight of DS. Just in this thread one has said it is two pounds heavier with equivalent coverage, and another has said it is four pounds heavier with equivalent coverage.
It seems as people don't do their own research to find out that the weight can vary greatly depending on the coverage of the ceramic discs. I have said before that the best way to compare would be a 10x12 ESAPI vs a 10x12 DS SOV3000 panel. I can't say I know for sure what these respective weights would be, but I would bet that they are extremely close in weight.
Someone has commented about about Air Force testing.
Yes there were penetrations of the level III DS vests, but there were after these 3 conditions.
1.) DS allowed a complete penetration after 6 shots, 6 shots is considered a pass in NIJ testing.
2.) The Air Force shot level IV rounds into a level III DS vest, but DS still defeated about half of these shots.
3.) The Air Force shot rounds into the sides were there were no ceramic discs.

The following are from Mr Douglas Thomas' written testimony for HASC:

"Because of this notification, and to confirm Pinnacle verbal claims of their SOV 2000 Level III “Plus” Dragon Skin Armor meeting key Level IV threats, AFOSI requested the Aberdeen Test Center fire the following Level IV rounds into the vests on 16 Feb 06.
1.) 7.62 x 54mm 147 GR, (LPS – light-ball ammo w/mild steel core) - PENETRATION despite Pinnacle Armor verbal assurance it would stop this threat.
2.) 7.62 x 39mm 120 GR, (BZ – armor piercing incendiary (API)) - PENETRATION despite Pinnacle Armor verbal assurance it would stop this threat.
3.) 7.62 x 39 mm 122 GR, (PS - steel case mild steel core) – PASSED as advertised on Pinnacle Armor website
According to the contract specifications, the Pinnacle Armor SOV 2000 Level III “Plus” Dragon Skin vests did not fail testing on written capabilities and was certified per contract specifications. However, it did fail the verbally stated capabilities discussed."

Now the Air Force saying that they were given "verbal" assurance, which means asbsolutely nothing as there is no way to confirm this.
Note they say DS passed written specs.

Here is a little bit more from that document:

"On 13 Jun 06, AFOSI directed HP White Labs to perform NIJ Level III ballistic testing on AFOSI procured Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV 2000 Armor. This testing was performed under supervision of a HQ AFOSI special agent and resulted in the Dragon Skin Armor failing. The tested vest experienced one penetration to the front panel after six shots and two penetrations to the rear panel after six shots. Additionally, the vest failed to stop Level III threats to the side panels, disproving the “full torso wrap protection” claim made by Pinnacle Armor."

Note they say DS was penetrated "after" 6 shots.
As I said earlier 6 shots is all that is required for an NIJ pass. Also as I stated earlier, these vests were not "full torso wrap" thus there were no ceramics in the sides.

What they did would be equivalent to shooting level III rounds into the Interceptor vest with no side inserts and calling that a "fail."

Posted by: patriot at September 29, 2007 09:01 PM

Come on! Dragon Skin did not only fail the Army test but also those by Air Force, Marines and several by NIJ. Only SOV2000 passed NIJ. Level IV Dragon Skin never had any kind of confirmed protection level. So I wonder why some people don't realize that Dragon Skin is not the magic vest as it is advertised.
Another point is its use for the military: The advertised advantage is its larger coverage. (full torso). But with that it is about 15 lb heavier than an IBA with side protection. (M Iba compared to L DS because of seizing).
With same coverage (a non defective) Dragon Skin would still increase weight about 4 lb, with nearly zero effect as protection is concerned. So why is ever B-class reporter so horny to pimp a heavier, more expensive and defective piece of body armor?
It is really funny because unlike what PBS says the rejection of Dragon Skin is an example where military procurement worked.

Posted by: dean at September 29, 2007 04:13 AM

The armor is "twenty pounds hevier" if you include thes ide protection.
Without it, Dragon skin is two pounds heavier than inteceptor.
Guys, if you think it is ok to leave the decisions about this stuff to people who know they are going to become "Vice Presidents" in the companies a year after they leave the service, I hope you do not have a random drug test anytime soon.
The rule should be if they decide on a contact, once they leave the military, they shouls NEVER be able to get a job with that company.
This way they will have to take large quanities of cash from undisclosed offshore accounts. It will be easier to send them to jail then......
Right now we just have a time deferred bribery system.....

Posted by: DennisBuller at September 28, 2007 03:33 PM

mega mega diddos SGT K

Posted by: 22lr at September 27, 2007 09:09 PM

Here's the deal:

The IBA works just fine. It does exactly what it's designed to do.
Maybe Dragonskin is slightly better in some areas - but too late, the IBA is already fielded.
End of Story.

Posted by: SGT K at September 27, 2007 04:48 PM

Why do a lot of people think that what ever that Army donst use, is because some money hungry geek is behind it? Why?

I would never wear dragon skin, beacuse it weighs so friking much. Honestly let the military decide what they want.

I hear people complain about how the army isnt spending enough in some areas, but the same people complain about the army spending money in others. Why are people so firm in there beliefe that dragon skin is so good. Ya if can take 50-100 hits (or so the TV shows) but if you heat it up, of soak it, the first round will penetrate. it was a good idea, that was not a good product.

Posted by: 22lr at September 27, 2007 12:01 PM

so much for all the honor and duty that they teach in OCS ROTC goes out the window when it comes to make a buck.

Posted by: slntax at September 27, 2007 10:24 AM

"Dragon skin is expensive, heavy, and the methods used to hold the disks in place are inadequate. "

For equivalent coverage, it's actually lighter. And for equivalent numbers, it might not be more expensive. The adhesive failures are open to debate - but if it's just a matter of improving the fixing, why not work on that rather than trashing the whole idea?

What we do know for sure is that DragonSkin is a lot more robust than ceramic plates and provides better protection - and that some people don't want a level playing field for the comparison.

Posted by: Wembley at September 27, 2007 08:22 AM

In regards to Siconik's posts- Is it worth considering that some of the military people who worked on the project while in uniform have knowledge and experience that make them valuable to continued successful development and improvement of the product? Proly not. Probably should not have cancer research carried out by the money grubbing laboratories who have been doing it for so long 'cuz they're on the "inside" too.

Posted by: Tom Atkins at September 27, 2007 07:41 AM

Hey, Shipmates, if you think that the Fifth Column folks over at PBS are going to objective about anything, I suggest you all need to take a long walk off the fantail.

There hasn't been anything objective in the way of reportage out of that bunch of raving moonbats as far back as I can remember. You wouldn't expect to get anything but scuttlebutt from The National Enquirer or The People's Worker Daily, would you? So why would you bite so hard on a story from PBS?

Seems to me that this ain't done yet, but it doesn't look so good for Dragon Skin. The design looks a little hinky to me. For all the extra weight, we might be better off adding some titanium plates to the Interceptor.

Cheers,
Chief B.

Posted by: Crusty Old Chief at September 27, 2007 04:38 AM

I agree: The best way to support our military is to turn the blind eye to the fact that people in charge of testing and awarding equipment contracts accidentally get high-paying jobs at the companies that tend to benefit from their decisions. Asking any questions about potential conflicts of interests is undermining our military. Those callous inquiries into the wisdom of revolving door policies are the number one cause of low morale amount our troops deployed overseas, I am sure.

Posted by: Siconik at September 27, 2007 02:06 AM

Yes, PROVEN. Proven by fair testing with the methods and results published for all to see.

Dragon skin is expensive, heavy, and the methods used to hold the disks in place are inadequate. The tests showed repeated penetrations because of adhesive failures.

Dragon skin is not super armor. There is no conspiracy against it. There are certain types who want to undermine our military and they are using dragon skin as a way to do that.

Posted by: Kaltes at September 27, 2007 01:42 AM

Proven by the people who ran the tests, awarded the contracts and then months later got the jobs with the firms that got the contracts? Gosh people, just take that the results at the face value, don't ask any questions and move on.

Posted by: Siconik at September 26, 2007 11:47 PM

Im sick of this issue, move on. Dragon armor sucks and that has been proven by Military testing. Move on poeple. Gosh

Posted by: 22lr at September 26, 2007 04:46 PM

And why did they get an "economics" reporter to cover this story? What's wrong with their defense correspondent? Too busy setting up his revolving door job at a defense contractor?

Posted by: Charlie Quidnunc at September 26, 2007 02:18 PM

Your friend Paul certainly has an axe to grind. He takes every word of the anti-Army at face value, and every innuendo of the Dragon Skin crowd as truth. The Army comes out of that hatchet job as a bunch of money grubbing nasties out to make a killing in the revolving door defense industry. Why did they leave any of the details of the Army tests out? If the Army says the sky is blue, this guy would bring out ten fools to say it was green.

Posted by: Charlie Quidnunc at September 26, 2007 02:12 PM