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Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 15, 2008 01:24 AM

38 Super; more rounds carried; very very similar 45 type foot pounds of energy on target.

What about the 5x7 (MP90); long range, armour defeat ability.

Then again; Why are the Northern European Countries going to the 4x6 SMG?

I do believe Steel Thunder 'IS" the future; just make it so; now, but until the technology is agreed to as a standard; we must evaluate existing accepted calibers. The ability to keep the enemy from engaging it's antagonizer "at the moment"; is the "Caliber" to use.

After all the B-52 is now HOW OLD?

The 1911 type frame is proven to be the starter; now fit the round to the most likely carrier to be used. The weapon is needed now; based on it's need. Stopping power! is the need now; whether 45cal, 5x7 or 4x6. Unless the carrier is dramatically changed(technology of the round to be accelerated; the small arm, is needed NOW! We know what works; for the sake of cost pick the size.

Let technology catch up with production cost and technical capability.

It's simple; there is NO ONE issued a 45 CAL ROUND; that worries about stopping the target. And there is no antagonist who doesn't think twice when the 45 is the preferred weapon of returning fire. Last bullet theory(lbt)? What is the round/weapon you'd trust your life with to defend your wife or child? This is the question, one round one kill or denying the attack; the "45"

Posted by: GARY OKUPANT at January 8, 2008 12:43 PM

38 Super; more rounds carried; very very similar 45 type foot pounds of energy on target.

What about the 5x7 (MP90); long range, armour defeat ability.

Then again; Why are the Northern European Countries going to the 4x6 SMG?

I do believe Steel Thunder 'IS" the future; just make it so; now, but until the technology is agreed to as a standard; we must evaluate existing accepted calibers. The ability to keep the enemy from engaging it's antagonizer "at the moment"; is the "Caliber" to use.

After all the B-52 is now HOW OLD?

The 1911 type frame is proven to be the starter; now fit the round to the most likely carrier to be used. The weapon is needed now; based on it's need. Stopping power! is the need now; whether 45cal, 5x7 or 4x6. Unless the carrier is dramatically changed(technology of the round to be accelerated; the small arm, is needed NOW! We know what works; for the sake of cost pick the size.

Let technology catch up with production cost and technical capability.

It's simple; there is NO ONE issued a 45 CAL ROUND; that worries about stopping the target. And there is no antagonist who doesn't think twice when the 45 is the preferred weapon of returning fire. Last bullet theory(lbt)? What is the round/weapon you'd trust your life with to defend your wife or child? This is the question, one round one kill or denying the attack; the "45"

Posted by: GARY OKUPANT at January 8, 2008 12:42 PM

38 Super; more rounds carried; very very similar 45 type foot pounds of energy on target.

What about the 5x7 (MP90); long range, armour defeat ability.

Then again; Why are the Northern European Countries going to the 4x6 SMG?

I do believe Steel Thunder 'IS" the future; just make it so; now, but until the technology is agreed to as a standard; we must evaluate existing accepted calibers. The ability to keep the enemy from engaging it's antagonizer "at the moment"; is the "Caliber" to use.

After all the B-52 is now HOW OLD?

The 1911 type frame is proven to be the starter; now fit the round to the most likely carrier to be used. The weapon is needed now; based on it's need. Stopping power! is the need now; whether 45cal, 5x7 or 4x6. Unless the carrier is dramatically changed(technology of the round to be accelerated; the small arm, is needed NOW! We know what works; for the sake of cost pick the size.

Let technology catch up with production cost and technical capability.

It's simple; there is NO ONE issued a 45 CAL ROUND; that worries about stopping the target. And there is no antagonist who doesn't think twice when the 45 is the preferred weapon of returning fire. Last bullet theory(lbt)? What is the round/weapon you'd trust your life with to defend your wife or child? This is the question, one round one kill or denying the attack; the "45"

Posted by: GARY OKUPANT at January 8, 2008 12:40 PM

38 Super; more rounds carried; very very similar 45 type foot pounds of energy on target.

What about the 5x7 (MP90); long range, armour defeat ability.

Then again; Why are the Northern European Countries going to the 4x6 SMG?

I do believe Steel Thunder 'IS" the future; just make it so; now, but until the technology is agreed to as a standard; we must evaluate existing accepted calibers. The ability to keep the enemy from engaging it's antagonizer "at the moment"; is the "Caliber" to use.

After all the B-52 is now HOW OLD?

The 1911 type frame is proven to be the starter; now fit the round to the most likely carrier to be used. The weapon is needed now; based on it's need. Stopping power! is the need now; whether 45cal, 5x7 or 4x6. Unless the carrier is dramatically changed(technology of the round to be accelerated; the small arm, is needed NOW! We know what works; for the sake of cost pick the size.

Let technology catch up with production cost and technical capability.

It's simple; there is NO ONE issued a 45 CAL ROUND; that worries about stopping the target. And there is no antagonist who doesn't think twice when the 45 is the preferred weapon of returning fire. Last bullet theory(lbt)? What is the round/weapon you'd trust your life with to defend your wife or child? This is the question, one round one kill or denying the attack; the "45"

Posted by: GARY OKUPANT at January 8, 2008 12:37 PM

I think the Kriss is an interesting concept but one that was unnessesary. We already have highly effective SMGs in service; most of which very few have problems with MP5, UMP, UZI, MAC-10 etc.

It's a good idea, but maybe there's little reinventing the wheel being done here. Enhance and improve concepts that are controversial and have many weaknesses.

Posted by: fmJK-47 at November 27, 2007 05:20 PM

I saw the Kriss fire. Good grouping evan at f/a. But, if it only can fit 15 rnds in a mag., wat good is that? It needs 20 to 30 to really make a difference. If they can fit 20,25,30 then damn a thats a lotta firepower. If not, i'll take the MP-5 or UMP. the UMP in .40 or .45, thank you.

Posted by: Rhyno327/lrsd at October 30, 2007 11:36 AM

In my opinion the Beretta 92 is more accurate and reliable than the GI 1911 that I used to shoot in the Navy. And as for .45 vs 9mm ...

From the June Defense Tech

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003530.html

"...So when I shot 9mm and 45cal. rounds through each, I was pleasantly surprised to find that although the rounds did penetrate the glass, the expanded as advertised. Having my caliper in back pocket told me that the 9mm expanded to .51 inches and the 45 cal. to .64 inches (all rounds being caught by foam and soft rubber) those numbers are an average for multiple shots on glass. The 9mm in my opinion in straight up head to head performance came out ahead of the .45, I’m sure only because of the higher velocity of the 9mm round.

On the drywall, I found more expansion but not by much, 9mm to .58 and the .45cal to .67 which for either surface, and the energy carried still after impact was surely enough to penetrate a solid 9-10 inches."

Posted by: JAFO at October 25, 2007 03:52 PM

Reading about this old debate about which hand gun is the best is still interesting. Being a retired 32 year vetern of law enforcement, and a retired military heavy weapons instructor, I have my own views of L/E weapons. My old agency carries 9mm, and have had no recorded problems so far, with the cal. From my experience, I agree with several of the other writers that it's where you shoot someone, and not "necessarily" with what. I also know of situtions where the bad guy was hit with one and sometimes two rounds from a .45 cal, and was able to return fire and in one case kill the shooter with the.45. The bad guy was carring a .357 revolver. Most good body armor will defeat most hand gun rounds, except maybe a .375 AP rounds. The main problems with the .45 cal is weight, and the amount of ammo you want carry around all day, also the range and the velocity of the round is a problem. As far as L/E being out gunned, well the bad guys have the advantange, mainly because they don't care who they kill, so spraying an automatic weapon around is okay for them, very bad P/R for cops to shoot up innocent civilians in the area.
One last note, just because someone is knocked down by a gun, does not mean they are out..

Posted by: Terry Knox at October 24, 2007 06:09 AM

All interesting feedback. Some stories a bit unbelievable. Everybody has an opinion and a preference but then beyond shooting skills and tactical actions, it all comes down to science and engineering. Do the math. multiply the bullet weight in grains by the target impact velocity in ft per sec squared; all divided by 450,000, which is the magic to give the answer in ft pounds of energy available to be deposited in the target. Now; if that bullet it designed so that it stays IN THE TARGET, and doesn't take some of those ft pounds down range, then you can really say which caliber is the best takerdowner. Actually, we need to open up on projectile design. By the way, Taser has some recent innovations of interest.

Posted by: childers at October 23, 2007 09:50 AM

I'm an le officer.All the talk about head shots is fine on a range.I shot expert in the mil,and shoot 98 and 99 now.A hp officer years ago shot a man center mast 12 times with a nine.the man died after he cut the officer'S throat.Faceing a man with an ak-47,or shotgun coming out of a house or car,you dont have time pulling a weapon and getting shot alignment for a head shot.A 45 or 40 can be close and buy you time,or cause enough trauma with a non fatal hit for the next round to hit.It would be nice to choose a 40 or 45 kriss.when they have cover,you dont,auto the way to go to get some.

Posted by: michael at October 22, 2007 02:23 PM

Yankee Medic, You have the right idea about SF doing in theater testing, but the Army won't let them until a full WSRB (Weapon Safety Review Board) battery of T&E is conducted at Picatenney, and that isn't in the budget. TDI played smart by trying to go around that and demo'ing at Blackwater. If the BW operators liked it, that would spread the word really quickly.

As for semi only to the public, if you want full rock and roll, pay the money and get your stamp. Personally, I think full auto is usually a waste of ammo. It only takes one .45 ACP for knock down, not a stack. The stack is only needed if you're in a very target rich environment.

Posted by: Oz at October 22, 2007 10:19 AM

For close quarter urban assault against insurgents/terrorists with his AK-47 & variants in tight environments of small rooms, stairs, roof tops, alleys and from wall to street, the next generation .45 caliber Kriss would allow once again the true knock down power without the collateral issues of unwanted rounds richocheting for blocks.
ONE well placed round in the leg, torso, abdomen or even hand
with a .45 caliber round and your adversary is out of the fight.
In the "run and gun" & "spray and pray" / hit and run tactics of our antagonists this is a DEFINITIVE answer. Let the SF cats test them in AFGN and on Black OPs in Iraq and forget about the Army testing them stateside. The ONLY true test of a personal
weapon system is in combat by professionals in all kinds of
firefights under the most demanding conditions there are.
Yes, extreme heat, cold, mud, sand, snow & ice have to be factored in -- but if the SF cadre like it and it holds up to THEIR
standards of maintenance and reliability, then its a winner.

Posted by: SSG Yankee Medic at October 21, 2007 07:44 PM

For close quarter urban assault against insurgents/terrorists with his AK-47 & variants in tight environments of small rooms, stairs, roof tops, alleys and from wall to street, the next generation .45 caliber Kriss would allow once again the true knock down power without the collateral issues of unwanted rounds richocheting for blocks.
ONE well placed round in the leg, torso, abdomen or even hand
with a .45 caliber round and your adversary is out of the fight.
In the "run and gun" & "spray and pray" / hit and run tactics of our antagonists this is a DEFINITIVE answer. Let the SF cats test them in AFGN and on Black OPs in Iraq and forget about the Army testing them stateside. The ONLY true test of a personal
weapon system is in combat by professionals in all kinds of
firefights under the most demanding conditions there are.
Yes, extreme heat, cold, mud, sand, snow & ice have to be factored in -- but if the SF cadre like it and it holds up to THEIR
standards of maintenance and reliability, then its a winner.

Posted by: SSG Yankee Medic at October 21, 2007 07:44 PM

All great comments. Many people have thier prefferences about 9mm because of the higher magazine capacity. Some of you prefer 10mm and .40 because of higher velocity. And I agree, shot placement is great if you have the time to make it. But take it from a retired Houston cop. It is all about stopping power. If you don't believe me, ask the LAPD officers that were involved in the bank heist in L.A. about ten or fifteen years ago. They were all carrying 9mm and they could not take down the bad guys. They lost three officers that day because they were outgunned.

In 1982 my partner and I answered a call to a liquor store robbery. When we pulled up the guy was just exiting the store. He turned and started shooting at us with a .30 cal carbine. He had us pinned behind our patrol car. I dove to the ground and placed one shot with my Colt .45ACP into the only thing I could see. His legs. I hit him and he went straight to the ground. The shot to his shin bone hit with such force that it broke is hip. Now that's stopping power. (Your 9mm won't do that!) My partner about a year later hit a guy in the hand and wrist with his .45 Commander and it almost tore the guys arm off. They had to amputate it. Again, it is all about stopping power.

I say bring it on and issue one to every law enforcement officer in the country.

Posted by: caribncwby at October 21, 2007 01:15 PM

I prefer the .45ACP over the 9x19mm as a sidearm/submachinegun cartridge, and the Kriss Super V seems to offer a very compact package for close quarters combat, but I question the logic of a limited magazine capacity. I do not consider the .45ACP difficult to control in full auto, and the subsonic round lends itself well to sound suppression. Since this firearm is in its eighth phase of development, we're looking at a work in progress that shows promise, not a finished product. It is one of several excellent choices for this role. Until I have the opportunity to examine it, work with it, I cannot offer an educated, experiential opinion so I remain objective, but I look forward to a test of the Kriss' reliability and handling in the (near) future.

Posted by: Edward J. Palumbo at October 20, 2007 11:26 PM

The CG animation shows a KRISS with a compensated fixed barrel with a tried and true blowback recoil feed cycle mechanism. This CG version of the gun should produce very little recoil. On the other hand, the live fire video shows an uncompensated gun being fired with more recoil and less control. Other U-tube video of KRISS being fired with a compensator shows much better recoil and tighter shot grouping. Point being, the rotating feed cycle mechanics of the KRISS is good more for compactness of the weapon and higher rate of fire than for recoil reduction, unfortunately at the expense of simplicity and perhaps reliability too.

IMO, a better gun overall would be: straight blowback instead of "toggle bolt", chambered in something such as 9 X 23, with silencer/compensator combo. End result is greater firepower (higher mag capacity), very easy to control, greater potential for instant incapacitation (esp with hollow points), greater penetration when needed, greater max range potential, and greater accuracy potential at longer ranges.

Posted by: firepower at October 20, 2007 04:38 PM

I always thought we were getting a "snow job" from DOD when they "introduced" the 9mm. The .45 round has that "knock down" power that is so very important. They lost sight of that fact. Now the .45 cal round is back where it belongs, in a reborn Thompson ! Whoaaaaah !

Posted by: Wes Herdeg at October 20, 2007 03:39 PM

The real, most important factor in take down is not whether you fire a 9mm or a .45 - it's where you hit the target. If you get hit in the core or head, you are going down and you are not getting up - it don't matter if it's a 9mm or a .45.

So given that, you can carry a lot more 9mm ammo than .45. Your typical 9mm is lighter and faster to bring on target; has more rounds in its magazine. I'm not convinced that there is so much to be gained in the heavier round.

Posted by: CaRteR at October 20, 2007 10:56 AM

It's about time someone brought back the .45. To put your life on the line with a 9mm just makes me cring.

Posted by: BironMiller at October 20, 2007 09:25 AM

Has anyone ever fired an M3 grease gun? Light, controlable, a lower rate of fire combined with straight vectored recoil in an extremely simple, utterly reliable system. I've seen nothing here thats better IMHO.

Posted by: Drydock at October 19, 2007 07:44 PM

My .17 Rem will swiss-cheese plate-type body armor. My self and a few buddies have tested it.
The real killer when it comes armor is Velocity!
Small hard bullets moving at 4200-4300 FPS.

Posted by: "yote" at October 19, 2007 03:43 PM

I believe we have overlooked the real issue. Basic Marksmanship! No matter what the round, a HEAD SHOT in any caliber will defeat your target! Learn to accurately shoot the weapon you have... Practice, practice, practice! Hit what you aim at, and the results will prove themselves!

Posted by: Fred at October 19, 2007 02:48 PM

During my time in the US Marine Corps as a cryptologic analyst, I was privileged to qualify with the Thompson SMG. That was the waepon that our security carried. I really enjoyed it. My son is currently a captain of Marines, He carried a 9mm pistol. As heavy load, large calibre wart hogs, he never received much comfort from that useless Eurpopean badge of an officer. :-( I am sure that he would jump at the chance to be issued one of your SMGs! :-)

After returning to civilian life, I acquired a Class III and used it a la John Bromfield to draw indian heads on plywood for the enjoyment of my friends, shooting club members and my family.

Now, at my somewhat advanced age, I am no longer as able to handle the recoil of full automatic fire well enough to maintain the accuracy that I desire. I sure would like to own one of your SMGs if ever it might become available to the public! :-)

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Posted by: jack torse at October 19, 2007 09:11 AM

OK, already. Love the .45 ACP round for any weapon, but GEEZ, guys. If you're talking self-defense for a CIVILIAN, my motto is hit the threat with ANY round at least twice.

Did you know that LEO's hit attacking cop killers at a LOWER HIT RATE than the PERPS hit them?

Given an average armed firefight on the street lasts 5 seconds or less, according to the largest studies ever conducted (FBI, John Lott, Force Science News, etc), all the discussion in the world makes no difference unless you can put multiple rouunds on a moving target (any caliber) while you yourself are moving to cover or concealment.

Posted by: GoCodeBravo at October 19, 2007 09:05 AM

Me Neanderthal...me LIKE big...

Oh, for crying out loud, I've shot the 1921 Thompson, the 1927, the '28, the MI, AND the BAR. If you're scared of recoil, go home and suck your thumb. ALL of them were controllable and quite easily so. This shootin' iron looks pretty cool. It's a HELL of a lot more practical than that HK in .308 that looked like an overgrown MP5 (now THAT baby danced like an ugly woman on uppers!). As for all that "40's better than Ten...and both are 'better' than .45"...talk to the SOCOM guys...they ain't buyin' it...Kimber's had a lot of sales lately...

Hu'ah...

Posted by: Enfield476 at October 19, 2007 04:27 AM

Looks good, but how easily will it jam & break under combat conditions?

Posted by: Asid at October 19, 2007 03:32 AM

Seems that the Kriss recoil mechanism could be logically adapted for sniper rifles like the 50 cal, where you could really reach out and touch someone.

Posted by: Marty at October 19, 2007 01:13 AM

Still looks like an excessive kicker.
Might be more effective and controllable in .40 or .357 SIG

Posted by: bobo at October 19, 2007 12:56 AM

Well, here it is people,the "re-revolution" of the .45 ACP,proven the best short range manstopper through decades of military "testing". When the military adopted the 9mm, a hue and cry went up over losing the .45 by people who had combat "tested" it.So much so by our Spec Op boys, they got it back,but made by a foreign company.Paratroopers in WWII valued their Thompsons for the stopping power,just as the round was valued against drugged up Moro pirates.An aged obsolete round? Ask those who are currently using it? An aged pistol design? Given the problems of the early M9,and the number of knockoff designs being sold,I don't see this either. As far as being "less effective" against armored targets, the transference of kinetic energy to target is what counts in stopping power,inherent in the slow velocity/high weight of the round. F=ma remember. Once again,ALL the Spec Op people,say differently.

Posted by: Carl at October 19, 2007 12:05 AM

Well if we're going back to oldies but goodies how about reviving the M1919. With the M2 armor piercing round I doubt that cinder blocks walls would stand for long. Heck Browning may have several hundred in storage and using the .30-06 round would help with the ammo shortage...heck I think that I have some around the house somewhere...

Posted by: Mr Phil at October 18, 2007 11:53 PM

The full Future Weapons bit on the Kriss does show it with larger clips as well as a vehicle mountable remote controlled turret, that fires two Kriss at the same time.

In addition they listed a variety of specialty rounds, including a mini grenade like round with stabilizer fins that pop out when it's launched.

As with anything reviewed on Future Weapons i take their gushing praise with a grain of salt, as they ten to gloss over most problems in favor of showing things go boom!

Posted by: Philip Shade at October 16, 2007 11:35 AM

.22lr, the feedback from the field (and criminals here at home) is that body armor for the OPFOR (either stolen or bought) is an increasing reality.

The .22lr is good for a few recognized military roles: Assasinations with surpressed pistols, shooting the testicles off protestors (see IDF) and knocking out light bulbs.

I highly doubt you will ever see it to penetrate armor. Your purile and purely anecdotal testing doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to real situations.

Posted by: Takeo at October 16, 2007 10:33 AM

How many terrorists in body armor have you seen? I have heard of a few, and they had old stuff. Like Vietnam era. They cant even afford medium range Kevlar, yet alone a class 3 plate system.

I thought most people new that 22lr could penetrate armor fairly easy. O well I guess i still have some learning to do. Go shoot a watermelon with a single 22lr soft point, it will make a nice little hole. take your 22lr and put a bipod on it, pop of 10 rounds as fast as you can wile still hitting the melon, it will blow up like it was hit by a .50. I have personally done that, believe me 22lr has very good anti armor capability, but to exploit them you need a gun that fires really fast, and you have to be within 30 yards of your target.

Posted by: 22lr at October 15, 2007 05:19 PM

"Taking down a soft target is all cool, but a lot of the time you have to get your lead though a car door, or a wall, and a 10mm doesn't do that as well as others."

No. Actually, the problem is that 10mm does it too well. Between that and controllability issues, .40 S&W was reverse engineered from the lighter 10mm loads.

As far as .22LR chewing through Kevlar and ceramic plates, I'll believe it when I see it. I've seen the YouTube footage of .22LR bursts chewing through trees, cinder blocks, etc., but 1) they weren't wrapped in Kevlar, and 2) trees and cinder blocks aren't made out of boron carbide.

Repeated hits will compromise a vest -- you can't hammer on them all day. However, if a few .22LR hits can do the job, it would happen quicker with 5.56mm NATO -- which brings us right back to the point Kevin and I were making. A .45 ACP SMG might find a niche as CQB weapon for unarmored combatants. Without a minor revolution in bullet construction, it's not a weapon for armored targets.

Posted by: demophilus at October 15, 2007 01:57 PM

22lr machine gun company's were shut down because the politics of selling a gun that can go though any body armor. Buck shot isn't hitting the same area, it is spread out, and lacks the velocity, and penetration power. A burst of 22lr just digs away at the armor until a bullet (or 2) can penetrate the target. They were never issued because a 22lr lacks any kind of combat range, maybe 30 yards at the most and it is by no means a bullets you want to have when dealing with a soft target. However they all had 100-200 round mags and were extremely controllable, so much that you can accurately draw a picture on your back stop. Kriss is taking that idea to a new level. The 22lr auto guns, while no longer made, are in extremely high demand in the shooting industry today. They sell for 10-20k. Ever hear of cutting a tree down with a MAG, or Ma deuce, same principle they just eat away at the tree until it falls. 22lr was never issued on a large scale because it just doesn't have any sort of useful range.

FBI uses the .40 because it does everything the 10mm can do, with more range and better ballistics. Of course the high end 10mm rounds will out preform the low end .40, but a good quality .40 offers more. The MP5-10 was not liked by all, as recoil was quite a bit stronger than 9mm. They use MP-5 in .40 now, although im not a bog fan of the MP-5 series, the .40 is much better than the 9mm.

The 10mm is a very useful cartridge, i know guys who carry it for bear protection, but a .40 is a much more useful combat round. Taking down a soft target is all cool, but a lot of the time you have to get your lead though a car door, or a wall, and a 10mm doesn't do that as well as others. 9mm was adopter by a lot of police for the penetration power. Also it is better to hit your target 2-3 times with a 9mm or a .40 than once with a 10mm.

Posted by: 22lr at October 15, 2007 09:17 AM

"You have to realize that no body armor will stand up to repeated hits over a small area."

So, that makes them worthless against shrap, or buckshot?

"Machine gun in 22lr are very deadly for that reason, you can put 10-20 bullets in a very controlled area, and defeat the persons armor."

Is that how it's done? I've only heard of two or three full auto .22lr SMGs, and AFAIK, none made it to general issue.

Oh well -- live and learn.

"The .40 offered more range, better ballistics, smaller size, and more penetration."

Smaller size, yes; less perceived recoil, yes. More range, better ballistics, and more penetration, no.

FYI, the FBI used the 10mm in the MP-5. They supposedly liked it a lot. Don't know what they're using now.

Posted by: demophilus at October 15, 2007 12:36 AM

You have to realize that no body armor will stand up to repeated hits over a small area. Less recoil mean you can hit your target with a burst of 5-6 rounds and defeat his amour, which kills him. Machine gun in 22lr are very deadly for that reason, you can put 10-20 bullets in a very controlled area, and defeat the persons armor. Also .45 is a heck of a stopper for unarmored targets. For 10mm did you know that the .40 was developed as a replacement for the 10mm. In fact the FBI used the 10mm until the .40 can out. The .40 offered more range, better ballistics, smaller size, and more penetration, all wrapped and tied with a gun that was smaller, and lighter. 10mm has really gotten a Hollywood name.

Posted by: 22lr at October 14, 2007 04:28 PM

There are .45s that can go through soft body armor -- e.g., KTWs, or Cyclones. IMHO, the big problem for .45 ACP is posed by hard body armor (boron carbide, etc.) and future plates that fit into the same pouches in present kevlar and other polyaramid carriers.

Getting through that sort of thing is tough -- some current plates will stop 7.62 NATO or Russian ball. Any pistol cartridge that can do it will have to be composed of very novel materials. As for that, mass, volume or payload may prove to play a role that diameter alone can't. If so, big bullets might come roaring back.

Maybe. Until then, pistol rounds like 9mm, .45 or 10mm will be limited to LIC against unarmored combatants.

Posted by: demophilus at October 14, 2007 12:43 AM

Looks like fun, but WTF? Given that nobody is going to invent a .45 that can go through soft body armor I have no idea what their planned market is. SWAT teams have largely abandoned MP5s for ARs because of body armor issues. Bullets that get stopped by the bad guys armor have really crappy "knock down power".

Posted by: Kevin at October 13, 2007 09:42 PM

45ACP is a good round, but 10mm is better.

Posted by: JH at October 13, 2007 06:43 PM

I would think A thompson would be handy to have in Irag. The fighting is close up and personal. The Enemy is known to be hoped up on Meth, Kot and other drugs. The same thing happened in the Phillipene around 1900. The army soon found out their new 38's would not stop a drug crazed Moral wrapt in wire. The 45 di the job just fine.

For that matter most of the buildings in those Irag towns are cinder Block, and I saw old BAR's tearing down Cinder Block walls like they were made of paper. Both the Thompson and the BAR suffered from the same problem, weight and weight of the amuntion.

But american troops don't go marching 10 to 20 miles to go to battle any more, so would weight still be the problem it was?

about that new BAR...any info on it, any testing being done?

Posted by: davids at October 13, 2007 06:27 PM

Ive never seen any data on the reliability of the Kriss, but I assume it is at least fairly good. I think it is a vast upgrade over the UMP because a user with much less training can still hit targets in full auto with a .45 bullet. I hear that .40 and even 9mm versions will eventually be offered, but id rather have a .45 version. A 28 round Mag is being developed, but they probably have it already.

It is Smaller than the UMP.
Higher rate of fire (by about 200 RPS).
A little lighter.
Same Effective range.
Has a much shorter barrel.
Has less recoil.
and Kriss offers changeable rate of fire.

All in all it is a smaller, lighter weapon that still has the same range, with greater accuracy.

Posted by: 22lr at October 13, 2007 12:09 PM

Is this weapon a substaintial upgrade to the already in use UMP .45?

Davids, I saw prototypes of a new generation BAR.

Posted by: mxpwr03 at October 13, 2007 09:43 AM

For room clearing and personal close up security like private convoys were your shooting from inside your vehicle I can see it as an awesome weapon in need of just a bigger clip, like a double drum style. Anything other then that I see limited use. When fighting street to street, why use that when you can a SAW or your M16. An automatic shotgun works good for room as well, but having that weapon would be more versatile then a shotgun, as you could just carry that instead of a shotgun, and M16.

Posted by: Mike at October 12, 2007 09:56 PM

For room clearing and personal close up security like private convoys were your shooting from inside your vehicle I can see it as an awesome weapon in need of just a bigger clip, like a double drum style. Anything other then that I see limited use. When fighting street to street, why use that when you can a SAW or your M16. An automatic shotgun works good for room as well, but having that weapon would be more versatile then a shotgun, as you could just carry that instead of a shotgun, and M16.

Posted by: Mike at October 12, 2007 09:01 PM

The article says "recoil is mitigated by diverting the spent gas from a fired round down and away from the gun's firing line." That's a little off. The Kriss has a rate reducer/delayed blowback/pivoting counterweight that directs the bolt's recoil energy down, rather than back into the operator.

It's not a new idea. The Czech Skorpion machine pistol had a similar rate/recoil mitigator in the grip. Ditto for the Bushman IDW/Parker-Hale PDW.

Hell, in a sense, the pivoting bolt delay/release is a different version of the toggle action on a Luger, or the Borchardt before that.

IIRC, the Kriss people have shown other layouts, including a bullpup configuration. IMHO, that might work even better than what they have now. That puts the dominant hand near the muzzle, which prevents muzzle whip even more; the recoil/rate reducer could stay in the stock, behind the magazine, pinned tight to the shooter's shoulder.

They might also consider putting a helical mag (like the Calico, Bizon or Chinese CFQ-9) on top of the weapon, over the bore, like the FN P-90, which would let it spit brass straight down like the Calico or P-90.

As for building it in .45 ACP, I see the fascination with that, but it's an old cartridge, and it pretty much tops out in a 5 inch barrel, just as designed by John Moses Browning. Other cartridges, like 9x19, 9x23, 10mm, or even .40 S&W, get a little more push and energy out of a longer barrel.

So if you did the KRISS as a bullpup, helical feed 10mm with a longer barrel, you'd have an entry weapon or PDW about the size of a P-90 or MP-7, shooting much heavier bullets at much higher energies. If the recoil reducer works as advertised, it would still be controllable.

After that, you give Ripley and the Master Chief some to fight Aliens, OR the Covenant. ;)

Posted by: demophilus at October 12, 2007 07:25 PM

Id carry an M-4 or M-16 any day of the week, id never carry something like an AK. The Kriss will not be marketed as a replacement for the M-4 a .45 bullet just don't have the range thats needed. However a .45 is the best weapon a soldier can carry when hes clearing a house. The M-4 only suffers from bad media, it is a good solid weapon, heck why do you think it is so popular with the people in the states that actually shoot them. The only reason it is getting replaced is because of people who think the Vietnam M-16 is the same thing as the latest M-4 which is most certainly not.

Posted by: 22lr at October 12, 2007 06:53 PM

Time for some sarcasm: Perhaps Kriss could invent something like a 50 found magazine that looks like a drum, or something.

I get the impression that the military, or various groups within the military, are almost desperate to find a replacement for the M-16 and variants.

The irony of going back to a .45 submachine gun / carbine is too thick.

Posted by: Jeff at October 12, 2007 06:28 PM

25-30 round clips are most likely in the works. The Kriss is a awesome concept, if it is reliable enough (I have no doubte that it isn't) I would love to carry one.

Posted by: 22lr at October 12, 2007 05:39 PM

What good does the Kriss do with only 15 rounds or so on tap? Need at least 25-30.

Posted by: Steven at October 12, 2007 04:50 PM

What's next....the come back of the B.A.R? Might beworth a look to give a few units in irag a few S.A.R'S And see how they do. There are plenty of brand new BAR'S in storage and museums that have never been issued. Only real problem would be if the troops say they prefer the old weapon over their modern ones. That would be a major embarrestment.

About the new 45 cal Sub Gun. If they solved the recoil problem and in turn the acuracy, The next thing they should do for great sales is to make look like a Thompson sub machine gun!

Posted by: davids at October 12, 2007 03:53 PM