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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Fighter Mafia Alumns on the Defense Budget

F-22ARaptor.jpg

Today, America spends more on defense than at any time since the end of World War II, based on the Pentagon's own official budget data. The previous high point in post-World War II defense spending was 1952 - during the Korean War - at $589 billion in today's dollars. The Pentagon's budget request for the current fiscal year totals $670 billion, or a substantial 14 percent above the previous high water mark.

U.S. defense spending is now also larger than the rest of the world - combined. The CIA's 2007 Word Fact Book estimates all other nations to spend about $400 billion on defense. That amount is for not just our potential opponents, whoever they might be; that's the entire rest of the world.

We are told we must worry about China and Russia and prepare against them; something we should really lose sleep over is how they can be such a major concern - to those who point them out as looming threats - with defense budgets of just $81 billion and $21 billion, respectively, according to the CIA.

A similar basis for worrying is why the Pentagon's budget has trended up over the decades, while its forces have been shrinking. Today, we have the smallest defense inventory since 1946. For example, with a spending level considerably higher than in 1985 when the Cold War raged and after Ronald Reagan increased the Defense Department's budget, we have now 10 active Army divisions, not the 17 we had in 1985; less than 300 naval combatants - compared to 542 in 1985, and we have just over 12 active Air Force tactical air wings, not 25.

A major reason is incompetence.

According to the "scorecard" of the Office of Management and Budget on how well U.S. agencies are run, the Pentagon has ranked among the worst since the ratings began. By bad management, don't think of just "waste, fraud, and abuse" and incompetent book-keeping - the measures OMB uses. Add to those the incessant decisions in the Pentagon and Congress that favor bureaucratic and selfish interests, rather than the needs of war. Those latter factors provide most of the explanation for why the Pentagon budget delivers less for more.

Consider just one example; the Air Force's F-22 fighter aircraft. It began in the early 1980s as the Air Force's solution to maintaining air superiority over the Soviet Union during the Cold War. However, a lot of history unfolded between the "Raptor's" conception back then and the Air Force's announcement on December 12, 2007 that after more than two decades of development the F-22 had finally reached "full operational capability," meaning that it was ready to go to war.

There is, however, no war for it to go to. While there are, of course, two very real ones in Iraq and Afghanistan, the F-22 is yet to fly a single sortie over the skies of either country. Nor has the Air Force announced any intention to send the F-22 to either theater.

The Air Force is quite right to keep the F-22 far away from those conflicts. The airplane is irrelevant to both, since its primary mission - to shoot down enemy aircraft - is useless against our opponents - al Qaeda, the Taliban, and other insurgents - who have no air force and don't want one. Worse, if the F-22 were it to appear in those theaters, it would almost certainly harm our war efforts. It is not just that its huge logistics tail would strain our already overstretched support forces in both theaters.

But also, the F-22 has operating limitations. While it can carry two medium sized bombs to attack ground targets, it is a capability so modest our opponents in Iraq and Afghanistan might not even notice. It would also be ungracious to compare the F-22 to the ridiculously cheap, simple A-10 close air support aircraft that is built specifically for the ground support role and that has been indispensable for supporting soldiers in combat in both wars. It would be even more bad-mannered to point out that each A-10 can deliver per day eight times, or more, the payload that an F-22 can.

More to the point, the F-22 would be counter-productive. Data from Afghanistan indicate that U.S. and allied forces may have killed more innocent civilians than the enemy has in the past year, and from Iraq we read report after report of civilians killed as a result of US action. A major part of those "collateral" civilian casualties come from aircraft flying too fast and too high to positively identify exactly what they are guiding their munitions to. As such, the F-22 is too "thin-skinned" to endure ground fire, even from assault rifles, and it is too expensive to risk flying close enough to the ground to identify targets. In a form of conflict where winning over the civilian population is key to success, F-22 participation - along with that of other high flying, high speed aircraft - may help the enemy more than us.

By keeping the F-22 at its US bases, the Air Force is doing our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan a great favor.

Counter-productivity in 21st century warfare notwithstanding, the F-22's advocates would leap to argue that in its intended role - shooting down enemy fighters - it is unsurpassed.

Let's pretend for the moment that there exists, or will soon, an enemy air force for which the F-22 would be relevant. How, then, could the F-22 help?

We contend that as an individual performer in real world air-to-air combat, the F-22 is a huge disappointment. The Air Force vociferously disagrees - based on its hypothesis that air wars can be fought and won by long range, radar-controlled missiles fired at enemies you cannot see or visually - that is, reliably - identify. This "beyond-visual-range," radar-missile hypothesis has been tested in real world combat, and it has failed repeatedly. If ever the F-22 finds itself in an air war against a serious opponent, all of us will find out who is right.

Here, we will focus on three issues about which there can be little argument and that explain how the F-22 contributes mightily to our shrinking, less ready-to-fight forces, while bringing vastly increased cost.

Force Size: Back in the 1980s, the U.S. Air Force planned to buy 750 F-22s to fight the Soviet air force. For development and procurement, Congress is generously providing $65.3 billion, a huge sum. However, because no stakeholder was interested in exercising discipline over the design, weight, and cost of each F-22, that $65.3 billion will only buy 184 aircraft, not enough to be a real threat to any major opposing air power.

Moreover, given the need to maintain a training base in the US and considering the demonstrated daily sortie rate of similarly complex aircraft already in our inventory, the Air Force will be lucky to be able to fly 60 F-22 sorties per day at the start of an overseas conflict against a major opponent. That number will shrink as inevitable combat attrition and maintenance down-time take their toll. The force size that the F-22 program generates is simply too puny to register against the major air threat the F-22 advocates hypothesize.

Pilot Skill: Unfortunately, we can expect that same tiny F-22 force to attrite all too rapidly in combat for the simple reason that the Air Force no longer adequately supports pilot training. F-22 pilots get only ten to twelve hours of flight training per month. When we provided 20 to 25 hours per month to train pilots for Vietnam, our pilots complained - rightly - it was inadequate. At the height of their prowess in the 1960s and '70s, the Israelis gave their fighter pilots 40 to 50 hours of flight training per month.

The history of air warfare shows all too clearly that the most important determinant of who wins and who dies in an aerial dogfight is pilot skill, not aircraft performance. Because they have raided pilot training accounts to feed increasingly voracious procurement programs (such as the F-22), Congress and the Air Force have virtually guaranteed high pilot losses for us in any hypothesized, large scale air war.

If the advocates of more air power for the U.S. were serious about winning and saving American pilots lives, they would double, then triple, the amount of money available for pilot flight training before spending a single penny on new aircraft. Revealing its real priorities, in help pay for the pork it added to the 2008 DOD appropriations act, Congress cut air force training by $400 million.

Unit Cost: The current plan to buy 184 F-22s for $65.3 billion calculates to $354.9 million per aircraft. The Air Force contends that such a calculation is unfair; it distributes the cost of all prior testing and development equally to every aircraft. The Air Force would rather use a calculation for prospective purchases - what it calls "flyaway" cost, which considers the development costs to have been sunk and that the only cost that should count now is the cost-to-go. Various estimates are circulating in the Pentagon to buy an additional 198 F-22s at a "flyaway" cost that varies from $176.8 million to $216.3 million per copy. (Even at the lower range, it would still make these new F-22s the most expensive fighter aircraft ever bought by any nation - except for, of course, earlier F-22s.)

The F-22's cost history makes it painfully obvious that we should consider the higher end of the currently advertised cost band to be a cost floor for any new purchase. At every stage, the F-22 has cost more than promised. For example, when Lockheed and the Air Force were pushing a three year contract to buy 60 aircraft now being delivered, "fact sheets" and lobbying materials widely distributed on Capitol Hill were promising a "flyaway" price of $130 million per aircraft; instead, Congress was required to actually appropriate approximately $180 million per copy. (In 1986, the Air Force originally promised a "flyaway" cost of $35 million.)

Time has not been kind to the F-22; neither to its costs, nor to its relevance. Even in the wars the F-22 advocates postulate against a Chinese or Russian air force, the F-22 is deeply flawed, and its ultimate impact is to degrade our most important assets in the air, our pilots and their skill.

The most prominent mission that Lockheed and the Air Force are currently pushing to buy more F-22s is demonstrated in recent newspaper articles and advertisements. Nowhere do these talk about a dangerous new air threat that explains the need for more F-22s. Instead, they focus on the 44 states that will receive corporate spending and jobs. Put another way, it is Congress' lust for pork and the perverted thinking that jobs and profits should drive defense spending, not the threat, that is driving the campaign to buy more F-22s.

The overall defense budget is stuffed to the gills with similar examples. Budget-inflating, war-irrelevant, dubious-performing, and pork-ridden examples in the other military services include the Navy's DDG-1000 destroyer, the Army's Future Combat System, and the Marines Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle. In fact, such programs are now the norm; it is the war-relevant, cost-effective ones that are scarce to the point of extinction.

There should be no doubt how we got to where we are.

-- Winslow Wheeler, Pierre Sprey, and James Stevenson

(Editor's note: Pierre Sprey was one of three designers who conceived and shaped the F-16; he also led the technical side of the US Air Force's A-10 design concept team. James Stevenson is former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School's Topgun Journal and author of The Pentagon Paradox and The $5 Billion Misunderstanding about the Navy's F-18 and A-12. Winslow Wheeler is the director of the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information in Washington. Previously, he worked for four U.S. senators from both political parties and the Government Accountability Office on national security issues.)

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Morpheus,
Yes and no.
What about global public phone carriers national
plans?

It is the policy of the United States to deploy as soon as is technologically possible an effective National Missile Defense system capable of defending the territory of the United States against limited ballistic missile attack (whether accidental, unauthorized, or deliberate) with funding subject to the annual authorization of appropriations and the annual appropriation of funds for National Missile Defense.

--National Missile Defense Act of 1999 (Public Law 106-38)

Posted by: navblk4 at February 15, 2008 12:14 PM


This article discusses the defense budget in
somewhat a negative fashion.

Appears time and money has been saved here.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123038314

In house seems to be one solution for effective
budgeting.

Posted by: navblk4 at February 13, 2008 09:28 PM


But Gates is concerned that each F-22 costs $140 million, while the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter "will be about half that, about $77 million a copy."

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
Seems to be some very large discreprencies?

Cole,
shorter range dog fighting here?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm
See per unit costs.

This seems very pricey for capability?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-120.htm
Price seems to be improved with capability?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM
AIM-120D: >180km (112 mi)

Posted by: navblk4 at February 13, 2008 07:30 PM


X-Version: militarycom 7.5.2333.0
X-SenderIP: 71.128.65.59
X-SenderID: 27082853
From: navblk4@military.com
Message-Id:
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:22:16 -0800
X-Priority: 3
Priority: Normal
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
To: noahmax@inch.com,Christian.Lowe@military-inc.com
Subject: http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003992.html
X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003992.html

Can you provide me a login to my post to either
delete them or edit them. Again I just posted to the subject and the post appears to be written to at the same I submitted it causing bad output to the appearance.

navblk4

Posted by: navblk4 at February 13, 2008 02:25 PM


Cole,
The reason I posted that, along with lower level
processing mentioned posted in the past was to
make engineers think about 24 bits? al,ah are
8 bit registers. ax is 16 bits and eax is 32
bits, and I don't know of a 24 bit register? I take these occurences and mistakes highly serious myself.

Yes iv'e heard the old joke, and from law it
appears it's not an old joke in the past. Those
being ordered at times to kill have been done so not following due process, and they themselves end
up damaged sometimes monetarily with prison or the same outcome to them. Falcon and the Snowman was due process, and of course i'm neither of those 2, and would have been pleased to prosecute them myself. I agree fully with you there.

AMRAAM I did not mention exact mileage though mileage is avaliable over the public internet.
I'm sure any classified aspects are not public
over the internet. This article appears to show
alleged spending problems, however no solutions.

Posted by: navblk4 at February 13, 2008 02:11 PM


According to JDW, the Defense Secretary, Mr. Gates, has stated that the F-22 is useless at the moment. It is operational in Iraq and Afghanistan, but, he said to JDW, not one sortie has been flown.
And he continued by saying that a peer-to-near-peer conflict is far away.
So methinks that, when India, Russia and China are up to snuff, then the Raptor might dive down on its smaller kin.
But when wil there be a war with any of these three?

Posted by: VNCCC-VHJM van Neerven, editor at February 13, 2008 01:05 PM


Insaint:

"@Vercingetorix

What country ever atacked the US, besides Japan at Pearl Harbor?"

* England in the war of 1812 -- they burned Washington.

* Mexico. 1840s.

* The Confederate State of America 1861.

* Germany (sabateurs during WWII forming the basis for the leading pre-GWB precedent on domestic enemy combatants).

Of course, U.S. forces have been fired upon far more often.


Posted by: ohwilleke at February 13, 2008 01:50 AM


so we have fewer aircraft with no current use. The F-15 fleet is slowly falling apart, and even a lot of the -16's are getting old now. This makes no sense.

Airlift capabities are becoming ever more limited and a 30 year old workhorse, the A-10 is one of the most useful platforms in the field.

It would seem our leaders and our planners are deeply out of touch with the nation's requiremenst for the next 5-10 years. Further, the infrastructure that brought us those cost effective platforms has been allowed to erode to the point that we are now reliant for many key technologies on overseas suppliers, of whom some are of questionable reliability.

Our defense procurement process has become a travesty.

Posted by: matt at February 12, 2008 03:43 PM


Well, I hope the dinasaurs known as the Fighter Mafia read these responses and figure out that they are relics of wars gone by. They seem to think we are still fighting in Vietnam. I appreciate Boyd for much of his fighting theory, it is very useful, and I appreciate Sprey as he help found the F-16, although he does not see the uses of the more modern versions which are excellent. But, they are really more of a nusiance lately.

If the F-22 costs approximately $140 million per copy, the figure I believe is most honest, especially if you factor out sunk research costs which were well spent as they do factor into the F-35 also. It stands to prove that each fighter is no more than $0.50 per person here in the US. That is a bargain for the incredible safety it brings to the table. A squadron of 20 then cost the average American a whopping $10. We certainly can afford to buy a squadron a year until we have at least 400 planes (although I would prefer more like 600).

The plane is the best there is. In close combat, it is reported that even our best fighters find it nearly impossible to even lock missiles onto the plane, including IR missiles. It will soon be launching as many as 8 Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs) as far as 65 or more miles from there target. Remember that the F-15C/D does not even have the ability to drop bombs, it is strickly air vs air. With its high Mach (Mach 1.7 has been reported) cruising speed, and high altitude (over 65,000 feet) the SDBs may reach ranges much farther than even that stated above. The F-22s can fire AMRAAMs from greater distance than the F-15 as it can be fired at Mach 1.7.

The AESA radar is expected to make all other air to air radars nearly obsolete. It is likely that the AESA will even be able to disable enemy air-to-air missiles with high power electronic attacks. It is able to find, track and attack enemy aircraft at ranges that will finally allow modern BVR missiles to excel.

The F-22s make every F-15 and F-35 even more deadly in air to air combat, by first disrupting the enemy, while providing intel to friendly fighters. (Note - unfortunately a critical datalink was not initially planned, but will be available to assist in this in future upgrades).

We certainly need to continue to produce this excellent aircraft as we can modify it for special purpose missions in the future, something we have not done mcuh in the past few years. The F-4 was modified into an excellent Wild Weasel, the F-111 was turned into the EF-111 Raven. Who knows what great adaptations we can give to the F-22. It would be excellent in a two seat version for controlling UCAVs for example.

While everyone was dumping on the B-2 bomber, they failed to see what it is today, a highly effective bomber that can target 80 separate targets today, and possible hundreds in the future. That is revolutionary, and keeps our enemies at bay, as they know how dangerous it really is. It is a travesty that we are no longer building updated B-2s today, but we at least seen the need and we will will spend billions building a new bomber for 2018.

Forget the Fighter Mafia, and lets get on with the work of building the best weapons in the world.

Posted by: wpnexp at February 11, 2008 03:02 AM


@Vercingetorix

What country ever atacked the US, besides Japan at Pearl Harbor?

Posted by: Insaint at February 10, 2008 04:53 AM


Been a good conversation so far:

"why would any nation try and fight us in the arenas in which we are strongest? The Maginot line of superior technology in which we trust will aid us very little in future conflicts."

That assumes that we are directly attacked and drawn into conflict. Historically, that is far and away the exception, not the rule to our wars.

It is far more common that we are drawn into an already raging war, such as WWI and II (Pearl Harbor of course was a direct attack, BUT the Japanese were already conquering Asia, so it holds), Korea, Vietnam, etc.

So, yes, few nations will attack us directly, just as few nations will directly attack Russia, India or China, just as it is unlikely that Russia will hit India or China or Europe or any combination thereof.

But Saudi Arabia might not hesitate to strike Ethiopia, or Ethiopia Eritrea, or Colombia against Venezuela, or even Brazil against Argentina, or Pakistan vs Iran, or wherever. Remember Desert Storm? Iraq didn't hit the US, it hit Kuwait, and we responded with half-million troops.

So the antes up to a major conflict are there. And, of course, small wars will continue to pop up and so we will fight more in the future.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 9, 2008 04:44 PM


Navblk04,

Appreciate the attempted clarification, but your link refers to a Feb 25, 1991 incident where a Patriot did not kill a SCUD and 28 died and 100 were wounded. That and the threat to Israel explains why the missile threat was taken so seriously 12 years later when the F/A-18 fratricide occured in OIF, near Karbala.

I'm sure you've heard the old joke, "I would tell you but then I would have to shoot you." That was my reference, and obviously, as Morpheous points out, there are many things we don't know in this discussion and SHOULDN'T know...or speculate about.

That is also part of the problem with the fighter mafia article. The historically poor performance of Viet Nam era Sparrow radar-guided missiles does not mirror the classified potential of AMRAAM and current/future threat radar missiles. Past capability of our non-stealthy aircraft using ECM against threat air defenses does not guarantee future success against newer systems.

Posted by: Cole at February 9, 2008 03:54 PM


Hi vertingentorex,

Here is a patriot mis-hap.
http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/

I did have a simplified diagram and code example
showing this, however it appears some persons
did not like it public and removed it from a
site even though I designed the diagram and I wrote the code.

I question AWAC feasibility comparing to per_se
Maritelar Radar or compatible systems, though I assume coverage is greater than current Drone ability.

There is really nothing further to say here or
debate with you, however being shot for knowing
how? AWAC probably uses the same algorithms or
parts of as does CJudy, Dane, PaveP and maybe
others. Perhaps to they add L or other band
sensors for a tracking signal which is not an
illuminating signal. Many away from AWAC's know
these things, so I don't know why others should
be shot.

Posted by: navblk4 at February 9, 2008 03:00 PM


Good comments Vertingetorex et all.

"my only concern as far as IFF is that our allies don't always comply. During OIF, Patriot missile batteries shot down at least one Brit fighter. From a guy in my old unit - I'm not going to the trouble of verifying the incident beside his word but he was at the airbase - after that incident, another battery locked on another Tornado, so the Brit pilot bombed the battery."
---------------------------------------

A Patriot PAC-2 downed a Brit Tornado 4 days into OIF, killing both pilots. The next day, an Air Force F-16 fired a HARM at a Patriot radar that locked onto him, but nobody was hurt. Finally, a pair of Patriot PAC-3s were launched at a F/A-18 mistaken for a missile(?), and killed the pilot even though he ejected.

Keep in mind that 40 Patriot batteries were in Iraq primarily to protect against the TBM threat, and 8 or 9 missiles were downed. Little time is available to engage a missile and the TTP then was to launch two Patriots against a missile...hence the two that killed the F/A-18. Obviously, there was a software problem and may have been an automated launch problem. The results and fixes were classified and never released, but a statement was released to the effect that fixes were made. We will see.

It was tragic to note no communication existed between whatever ground element was in charge of ground air defenses and AWACS which may or may not have solved some of the problem. A future Single Integrated Air Picture is planned and must be automatically kept current, or you are correct, there may be future incidents.

But two F-15s shot down two Blackhawks killing 26 friendlies in 1994 with "visual ID." Later in OIF, MLRS Batteries were engaged from the air, thought visually to be Iraqi air defenses. There have been many more such incidents on both air and ground.

Visual ID is often mistaken. We can't afford to discontinue use of AMD or air-to-air/air-to-ground assets because fratricide occurs. We MUST fix the fratricide problem, so our best missiles and TTP can be used as they were intended to maximize the benefits of stealth aircraft and long-distance acquisition of air and ground targets.

The tragic loss of friendly aircraft to Patriot missiles should, however, be a warning to the authors of this article and the "more-is-better" crowd who would prefer continued flight of many agile non-stealthy aircraft in the EARLY fight.

More non-stealthy aircraft in the air, no matter how agile, simply means more non-stealthy aircraft splashed by enemy air and ground missiles.

Likewise, more aircraft flying air interdiction missions, complicates the work of AWACS and ground/sea air defense systems to differentiate between returning friendlies and inbound threats.

Fewer stealth aircraft flying such missions will be flying known routes, and should hopefully have small enough signatures that accidental engagement would be difficult, because guidance and fuzing would be more difficult by mistaken friendly or deliberate threat engagements.

That does raise the interesting question of how AWACS tracks friendly stealth aircraft...but don't tell me because I don't want to be shot.;)
-------------------------------------

"Patriots might be quirky. But a few incidents like that could lead us to shorter detection ranges, especially if we are fighting on the side of an erstwhile ally, like say, Vietnam against a Chinese invasion (however that might happen), long distance IFF would ID both ally and enemy as potential threats."
--------------------------------------
You raise the specter of fighting alongside allies who have aircraft and ground systems similar to what the threat has. Examples: India air and ground systems, South Korea ground systems, Pakistan?

Something must be done in the combat ID and TTP arena to fix fratricide. For instance, FCS has a highly capable combat ID systems built into its vehicles. Maybe its time to upgrade air IFF, as well.

Posted by: Cole at February 9, 2008 02:31 PM


why would any nation try and fight us in the arenas in which we are strongest? The Maginot line of superior technology in which we trust will aid us very little in future conflicts.

A real bonus to our armed forces would be the sacrifice of a dozen F-22's - instead spending that money on broadening language and cultural training throughout the services.

Posted by: DC at February 9, 2008 01:23 PM


Grant, the reason none of us mentioned that there are three levels of international participation is because it's not true. There is one level of participation in the F-22. That level is: the US and the US alone.

There are 3 levels of international participation in the F-35 program. That is a different aircraft. Note the numbers difference: 22 vs 35.

Posted by: Brian at February 9, 2008 01:22 PM


Some of us WISH we spent about 25% on defense. It is actually less than 20% (a little more or a little less depending on which numbers you believe). And where the hell did they come up with $670 billion - according to every reliable source I can find it is "only" $585.4 billion ($515.4 discretionary defense spending + $70 to fund the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan). Also note that we spend more Social Security than defense & the projectd growth in Social Security is SIGNIFICNLTY faster than defense...

Posted by: pfcem at February 9, 2008 01:16 PM


Thank you for the comments, however I don't
necessarily agree with these.

8. National defense is job one for the national government. (I can't tell why it's not here.)

14. The A-10, F-16, and F15E are good but minor tools for this job. (We maintain these areas of
science and engineering are never bad and never
good. They are only characterized as such.)

19. Some of these mistakes have been with jets and missiles. (This I question. Accidents or
deliberate usage should not always characterize them as bad nor condemn the entire models nor classify them as mistakes.)

21. Honest debate is always healthy.(Depends, you
basicly already answered within these statements
that it may not be.)


22. Missile technology is getting better. (Possibly "improving" may be more proper.)

Of course I agree with much you say, though I'll
edit this, all has been stricken.

DoD is not a large entity and the military components themselves have not grown in comparison
to other government entities.

I was a memebr of IEEE and invited to a job dinner
with Thales. They were hiring 50 engineers. These
jobs are short term. A young woman with the IEEE I
spoke to at this dinner. She works at a large aeronautic company, and admittedly is not an engineer. Most jobs for engineers are aquired by
those in their 50's nowdays. I just saw this at
Boeing with less than a dozen jobs.

In 2005 I attended the 2 day mathworks aerospace and defense conference. Approximately 500 per day in attendance. Approximately 50% from the US and 50% foreign. In attendance were the scientist and engineers from Boeing, Grumman, Martin, NASA, Los
Alamos and very few private as myself.

Are there too many paper pushers on payrolls?


Posted by: navblk4 at February 9, 2008 01:10 PM


There obviously is a lot of opinion about these topics. But I think we all can agree on many things.

1. We need a superior A2A fighter.
2. We need enough of them to handle any foreseeable conflicts.
3. We need superior A2A missiles.
4. We need to engage enemies from a safe distance as possible.
5. We need to be able to win the dogfight if it comes to that though that should be our last resort.
6. We need a good balance of quality vs. quantity to maximize our spending.
7. We need a superior Air to Ground platform just like our A2A platform.
8. National defense is job one for the national government.
9. We should spend enough money to get this job done properly.
10. We should not spend more than we need to get the job done properly.
11. We need to plan for the Big War and for smaller conflicts.
12. Our current COIN responsibilities are important and need all the right tools for the job.
13. Our A2A superior fighter is not the right tool for this job.
14. The A-10, F-16, and F15E are good but minor tools for this job.
15. Our past short comings in Iraq and Afghanistan have had little to do with equipment.
16. Tactics are just as important than equipment.
17. In our current conflicts, we have adjusted our tactics and are having better success.
18. Throughout the history of our country, we have made big mistakes in the past on equipment and tactics. We eventually learn better and correct our mistakes.
19. Some of these mistakes have been with jets and missiles.
20. We don't want to repeat these mistakes.
21. Honest debate is always healthy.
22. Missile technology is getting better.
23. Dogfighting is not as important as it used to be.
24. Dogfighting should still be taught and practiced.
25. How good our missiles and tactics are should be kept secret.
26. Most of us debating here do not have the latest data on missiles and tactics.
27. Thus none of us can resolve this debate here.
28. Even if we could, things will change tomorrow and new conclusions will be different.
29. The biggest issue today is not jets, missiles, or tactics - it is government spending.
30. Our government spending is more of a threat to national security then any military foe.
31. We need good solutions to this problem.

I think we can all agree on these points. Ultimately, most of us are trying to solve the wrong end of the equation. We debate how many F-22s we should have rather than how to get the costs down.

I want to know why the F22 costs so much? Why is it like $300 million a copy rather than $50 million? There has to be creative ways to get the cost down. I'd love to see a breakdown of the plane by areas of cost. I bet that would be very interesting. I also bet most of us don't have a clue about this. Very few people do.

But even then, the bigger issue is our government spending on non-military issues. Our government spends only 25% of its budget on our military. About 73% of it is spent on social security, welfare, and Medicare/Medicaid. That is the real problem.

Posted by: morpheus at February 9, 2008 12:25 AM


> Any current and future budgets that are not weighted 70 percent toward COIN/Post-conflict is a waste of money...or worse.

BS

saying they need to change their tactics does NOT EQUAL saying they need a gigantic funding boost

in fact, a properly run COIN program doesn't need that much money at all (relatively speaking)

what people are realizing is that for COIN, it's NOT the weapons, it's the tactics

saying we should transform ourselves into a 'Small War' army is very, very dangerous

a 'Big War' army with proper tactics can successfully fight the 'Small War'. But the converse is definitely not the case.

Posted by: irtusk at February 8, 2008 08:02 PM


I guess the debate also rages in the Pentagon, with the high tech wonder weapons for mythical superpowers crowd vs the low tech/brains of the here and now and most likely future, COIN.

Any current and future budgets that are not weighted 70 percent toward COIN/Post-conflict is a waste of money...or worse.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/washington/08strategy.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=&oref=slogin

Posted by: Bryan2020 at February 8, 2008 07:42 PM


From:
navblk4@military.com
To:
Christian.lowe@military-inc.com
Subject:
Fwd: Sloppy format
Date:
Fri, Feb 8 2008 3:16:30 PM -0800

---- Begin Included Message ----

From: navblk4@military.com
Sent: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:11:43 -0800
To: noahmax@inch.com
Subject: Sloppy format


I just posted here.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003992.html

That is not how the text appeared in the
text area. Please delete the post or align
it.
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hop rtt rtt rtt ip address
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Posted by: navblk4 at February 8, 2008 06:43 PM


The F-22 and 35 are dogfighters more less from
the article. Dogfighting has just exceeded 100
miles with a sidewinder derivative.

Most dogfighters are approximately 100 miles
from "the coast were I live in a very populated
area". Intercept over this area could result in
significant casualties.

I question drones surveillance capabilty more so
than target recognition and guidance of the drone and payload. I feel surveillance over a large area
needs to be considered before going 100% drone as
so many say is happening.

I also question further budgeting for 35's when 22 projections and goals have not yet been met,
though there's probably not much difference.

Posted by: navblk4 at February 8, 2008 06:03 PM


Not one of you mentioned the fact that There are three levels of international participation. The levels generally reflect the financial stake in the program, the amount of technology transfer and subcontracts open for bid by national companies, and the order in which countries can obtain production aircraft. The United Kingdom is the sole "Level 1" partner, contributing US$2.5 billion, about 10% of the development costs[34] under the 1995 Memorandum of Understanding that brought the UK into the project.[35] Level 2 partners are Italy, which is contributing US$1 billion; and the Netherlands, US$800 million. Level 3 partners are Canada, US$440 million; Turkey, US$175 million; Australia, US$144 million; Norway, US$122 million; and Denmark, US$110 million. Israel and Singapore have joined as Security Cooperative Participants.

Posted by: Grant at February 8, 2008 05:38 PM


> The F-22 is almost useless outside of a cpntrolled fight where the outcome has already been pre-arranged

sure

> Yes, it is the most capable fighter out there

slightly contradictory is an understatement

> The flaw is the concept, not the aircraft itself.

so you're saying the F-22 isn't flawed?

> As with the F-4 back in the late 50's it was intended to be a stand-off fighter focussing on missiles to the extent of ignoring close-in capabilities.

pray tell how the F-22 ignores close-in capabilities

it is the most agile fighter in the world and has a cannon, i'm still not seeing the flaw

> So what's the flaw? Not the plane itself, but the concept that this needs to be a "One-plane-does-it-all" instead of an air-to-air fighter. The result would be a lighter, even more fuel-efficient airframe with even higher maneuverability against any opposition.

so even though it's the fastest, most manoueverable fighter with some of the longest range of any fighter, it's still not fast enough, manoueverable enough or long-legged enough

ooooooookay

actually it was designed just how you suggest. The motto of the design team was 'not one pound for air to ground'. The F-22 was designed soley as a no-compromise A2A weapon. Later, a (limited) A2G capability was tacked on to justify the program to congress, but make no mistake, it is a no-holds-barred dogfighter

> Honestly, expecting a mere 200 planes to protect US assets from potentially hundreds or even thousands of opponents is like expecting John Henry to beat the steam hammer 40 times in a row without rest.

the USAF had the exact same concern

fortunately, they put a plan in place to deal with it

you have heard of the F-35 yes? 1500+ of them should be plenty to satisfy any 'quantity concern'

(PS the F-15s and F-16s aren't going anywhere soon either)

> One of the major points of this insightful article is "What are we getting for all of this money that is being laid out?" Are we getting better technologies for countering IEDs which are killing our troops? Better equipment for counter insurgency/terrorist operations?

there is a danger in so totally focusing on COIN operations that we lose our ability to fight the 'Big War'. Just because boomer subs are irrelevant to Iraq doesn't mean they are irrelevant.

Posted by: irtusk at February 8, 2008 05:16 PM


How many 5th generation fighters are out there? If I recall corectly only the F-22 and the F-35 are qualified as such. The Su-37 may be if they ever get into full production. Putting a couple squadron of the finest fighters ever made into the hands of the finest pilots ever trained would be more than a match for most nations outside NATO. If any country attempts an air-war, the risk of sending dozens of their own aircraft up against a dozen of F-22's, they would take severe causualities.
Like most reasons we field and put to use for is because of deterence. To stop a war from happening. The F-22 is the pinnicle of modren aviation, that would be quite a deterent. I've definatly perfer paying the price to guantee the fact that the skies over the U.S. is guarded by aircraft that are unrivaled.
Now to add Future Combat Systems to the Army, and some new DD(X) stealth destoyers, then maybe we could hit a trillion dollars a year

Posted by: Alexander Lebsn at February 8, 2008 04:49 PM


CR,

Insightful article? That's crap. This is merely a rehash of the same tired arguments. We've seen all the arguments before, we'll see them all again.

No, the money for the F-22 does not stop IEDs. It doesn't stop tooth decay, program your DVR, or give you a handjob on a cold winter night, either. It provides guaranteed air superiority.

We have a lot of military programs that are in service only to prevent the worst possibilities. I have health insurance despite the fact that I'm not sick. Why? I don't have cancer. I have health insurance because if I didn't have it, and I got really sick, I'd be in real trouble. Why do we have nuclear subs? Why do we have ICBMs? Why do we have F-22s? We have them all for an entirely different purpose than having MRAP vehicles. We have those systems as a defense against some of the worst-case-scenarios. Because if we didn't have them, and something really bad happened, we'd be screwed.

Posted by: Brian at February 8, 2008 04:49 PM


RobS-

Your response is the typical conservative knee jerk reaction when confronted with something that does not fit your pre-conceived notion of what is "right"-

One of the major points of this insightful article is "What are we getting for all of this money that is being laid out?" Are we getting better technologies for countering IEDs which are killing our troops? Better equipment for counter insurgency/terrorist operations?

Instead of asking the hard, well thought out critical questions go ahead and rely on the standard conservative bullcrap..."its the media....it's the left wackos.....it's unions....blah, blah, blah...."

It's much harder to ask the tough questions and face reality.....good job

Posted by: CR at February 8, 2008 04:21 PM


In reply to irtusk: |quote|F-22 opponents keep calling it 'deeply flawed' but never quite manage to identify what exactly this mysterious flaw is|unquote|

The flaw is the concept, not the aircraft itself. As with the F-4 back in the late 50's it was intended to be a stand-off fighter focussing on missiles to the extent of ignoring close-in capabilities. As a result, it became a better bomber than it was a fighter. It could barely hold its own against the Mig 19 due to the fact that it honestly couldn't defend itself against guns. Sure, it could try to run away, but then they made themselves vulnerable to the MiG's missiles. It wasn't until the F-4E that they actually put in the plane.

Don't get me wrong, the F-4 did a great job as far as it went. It was far superior to the F-105 it was sent to support and protect. But as an air-to-air fighter, it took us from a 15:1 loss ratio against the VC to a 1:1 ratio... not very good considering Korea only 10 years before with a 30:1 win ratio against the MiG 15.

So what's the flaw? Not the plane itself, but the concept that this needs to be a "One-plane-does-it-all" instead of an air-to-air fighter. The result would be a lighter, even more fuel-efficient airframe with even higher maneuverability against any opposition. Ok, so in one exercise a single Raptor went up against a squadron of Eagles; no argument. You're also looking at a modern plane against a near-obsolete plane. Has anyone actually taken it up in an even, unrestricted match against a MiG 35? What about newer MiGs and Yaks? Is it really comparable? I don't know.

Honestly, expecting a mere 200 planes to protect US assets from potentially hundreds or even thousands of opponents is like expecting John Henry to beat the steam hammer 40 times in a row without rest. He might beat a few, but he can't win them all. Sure, fewer numbers can be effective; the F-15 with its 750 or so airframes replaced something over 2500 F-4s. But the F-15 was supported in turn by the F-16 and the A-10. With modern projections being what they are, the F-35 is hardly going to be able to replace both the -16 and the -10.

For that matter, how many people remember the F-20? How many remember what happened to it?

Posted by: David at February 8, 2008 03:44 PM


If we can buy F-22s for only $365 million per article, just think what we could buy at $1 billion per article. All we need to do is levy higher taxes on an already overtaxed population.

The F-22 is almost useless outside of a cpntrolled fight where the outcome has already been pre-arranged. Yes, it is the most capable fighter out there, but what real world value translate into? Should we maybe go pick a fight with China just to prove this point? China, BTW, is just fielding it's new J-10, fighter. While probably not as capable as the F-22, they could literally afford to buy seven of them for the cost of one F-22.

This thing is going to wind up being a very expenseive air show jet, with a role relegated solely to deterrence. having an irrelevant ground attack capability, it will remain useless in the current conflicts. While anyone with a lick of sense knows that a war with China or Russia is unlikely at best, it is a virtual certainty we will be fighting in asymmetrical theaters for years to come. Shouldn't we at least entertain the idea of developing platforms that can operate in this environment as well?

My personal opinion is that Merrill McPeak's fighter-centric legacy lives on, even in a time where there is no real need for these types of aircraft. The real value added by the fighter community has been in their ability to strike ground targets, a role that I beleive has even been passed on to the F-15C dudes. It seems odd to me that the Air Force would even entertain the thought of buying something with such a small air to ground capability.

I fly bombers, and I know that in a real world situation I will need some sort of air cover. That being said, I have no doubt that the job could be done just as effectively by some other platform. I would prefer to see the money spent on the F-22s go to a more value-added cause. For this price the Navy could purchase and equip six new carriers, holding more than 480 aircraft. I'm pretty sure that wpould be far more beneficial than 180 new F-22s. I would feel safer anyway.

Posted by: brknutz at February 8, 2008 03:36 PM


Unless thier Bio's are BS ONE of the people who wrote this was instrumental in two of the better and more cost effective large weapons systems procured in the last few decades ... the other one worked for the GAO among other things.

To say they know nothing of the subject and go ranting about social programs shows exactly how many thick headed closed minded axe grinding troglodytes can fit on a forum (the 21st century version of Angels dancing on pinheads I guess)

The article is about the weapons systems development and procurement process and how its broken. A B2 Bomber... of dubious value costs about $2billion and took decades to develop and field... the Osprey costs more than $65 million per copy .. the canceled OICW.. an infantry weapon too heavy to carry impossible to fire prone and and costing $30,000 per copy (estimated mass production cost) and 'not particularly air deployable' Stryker are two more examples...

This isnt working... lets talk about some stuff that did and you'll see the difference.
the M1911a1 pistol and the M2HB stayed in service for better than half a century and you still wouldnt feel too put out to bring EITHER of them to a modern battlefield... If you count the M1 and the M14 as continuous development of a single design that makes another weapon that more than half a century after its initial design that STILL isn't out of place on a modern battlefield and which you could stand next to the best arms of today and have rational proponents who could argue that its still a better weapon. THE JEEP for crying out loud.. from idea to prototype in two weeks .. cheap , simple, effective and loved for half a century.. until replace by the Hummer..not cheap, not simple, and only MARGINALLY more effective* not to mention the OICW , the Sergeant York, the Bradley it goes on....

We used to do better.

*I* think, on no evidence at all, that one problem is the last generation of American engineers to actually work with their hands on the materials.. who grew up around lathes and welders and soldering irons and breadboards just flat did better work... but the the bigger problem , the sickness that kills empires is when the organizational objective (profit, bureaucratic turf, congressional pork) trumps the nominal objective (engineering excellence in service of utility) AND when you REWARD adherence to the former SO HEAVILY with MORE money and promotions and protections and ignore or belittle those who autisticaly persevere in the latter then you will increasingly get what we are getting now and EVENTUALLY we are going to be BEATEN IN THE FIELD by a technologically superior enemy. And if you think its wrong to think or say that America COULD lose .. then you contribute to the blind pig headedness that will make it a future reality.

We need the best of our imaginations and talents working to field simple economical BRILLIANT designs that will stand the test of time...as we once did .. or America's soldiers (and our principles and ideals) WILL have the most expensive and complicated battlefield debris in the history of the world as their grave markers.


* digression on the Hummer: unless you feel the need to turn it into a bad armored car.. in which case.. maybe buy an ACTUAL armored car (probably at a lower cost and higher survivability than a 'kitted' Hummer) instead? Really what IS the difference between say an old M8 scoutcar and a kitted hummer?

Posted by: Scott Keyes at February 8, 2008 02:59 PM


> However, the execution of the concept as seen today is seriously flawed for the same reasons they were when the F-4 first came out.

ah, the notorious 'flaw'

F-22 opponents keep calling it 'deeply flawed' but never quite manage to identify what exactly this mysterious flaw is

Posted by: irtusk at February 8, 2008 02:43 PM


Cole, my only concern as far as IFF is that our allies don't always comply. During OIF, Patriot missile batteries shot down at least one Brit fighter. From a guy in my old unit - I'm not going to the trouble of verifying the incident beside his word but he was at the airbase - after that incident, another battery locked on another Tornado, so the Brit pilot bombed the battery.

Patriots might be quirky. But a few incidents like that could lead us to shorter detection ranges, especially if we are fighting on the side of an erstwhile ally, like say, Vietnam against a Chinese invasion (however that might happen), long distance IFF would ID both ally and enemy as potential threats.

I would not lean too heavily on technology. Most kills with a rifle happen not at maximum range, but within 200 ft, for the same reason; once crowded, you need better eyes on the target. In fact, the F-22's stealth could work against them, because that could seduce policymakers to close that safety gap without 'much' risk to pilots. Never underestimate political cowardice over skill, technology and planning.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 8, 2008 02:34 PM


Do I want to get into this discussion? Not really. But I'm going to anyway.

The purpose of the F-22 is valid, it's technology probably superior. However, the execution of the concept as seen today is seriously flawed for the same reasons they were when the F-4 first came out.

Ok, so the plane is essentially invisible to other airborne radars. A valid point when going against other fighter aircraft and maybe even avoiding ground-to-air missile radars--but not for long. The design is already essentially 20 years old even as brand new airframes are brought into active duty. The reasoning for this is at least partially for the reasons stated in the article.

On the other hand, the F-15 was conceived in 1965 as a true dogfighter because of the lessons learned from the F-4 and was in active duty by 1975. Why? Need outweighed pork. We saw our modern 'superior' fighter being outclassed by cheaper mass-produced planes due to a combination of lack of training and lack of air-to-air close-range capability. The F-16 quickly followed as a significantly cheaper replacement in the ground-attack role while still maintaining air-to-air capability and the A-10 arrived as a surprisingly inexpensive incomparable air-support aircraft that even now is being upgraded internally for higher accuracy against ground targets because there is NO suitable replacement in the works. The aging F-111 tactical bomber ended up being replaced by the F-15E strike fighter: a purpose-built variant of the F-15 designed for tactical bombing but retaining its air-to-air capability for self defense.

Today we have what? The F-15s are wearing out simply because they were the best planes for the job they were designed for and spent thousands of hours in the air supporting a number of conflicts in southern Europe and the Middle East as well as the training needed to maintain pilot skills. The F-16s are suffering a similar fate; mostly through crashes due to aging systems and 'normal' attrition. The A-10 itself is suffering attrition as well, since the last airframe was built over 20 years ago and even though it has the toughest airframe flying (that I know of) will start to show fatigue soon enough.

The inventory is shrinking and there are no real suitable replacements on the horizon. When you really consider it, the Russian MiGs and Yaks are much less expensive and easily as capable in many ways to our over-engineered projected fleet. Stop trying to make one airframe do the job of 6. Secretary McNamera's concepts were proven wrong back in the 60's; why are we trying to return to them? Air Superiority aircraft need to concentrate on Air-to-Air capability and essentially ignore any air-to-ground service except as a tertiary function. Air-to-ground aircraft need to be able to take ground fire and return like-for-like as the A-10 does now. By specializing airframes you can reduce costs enormously. Let the designers decide where to get their parts (as long as they are American) and stop trying to micro-manage every aspect of our military. Let the warriors decide what they need and get the civilians out of the process (and yes, I include Lawyers as civilians.) Yes, the Military needs oversight to limit spending, but that doesn't mean the oversight groups should tell the Military where to get their parts. That's like putting oil with water; they just don't mix.

Posted by: David at February 8, 2008 02:25 PM


I have zero heartburn about the F-22 and F-35 other than their cost...and the actual numbers required of both versus the realistic current/future air and air defense threat.

Found this Feb 2008 article illuminating in describing the author's personal encounters/knowledge about the "fighter mafia":

http://www.afa.org/magazine/feb2008/0208reformers.asp

A key article mention was that USAF developers saw the need for F-15 capabilities to fight air-to-air in the dark and in all-weather. In Germany it can be extremely hazy even when there are no clouds. We almost got run into once in our helicopter by a German fighter in thick haze, who probably had me on radar and just buzzed us.;) I've mentioned that China is very smoggy leading to similar situations of low visibility. Even F-22s at 50,000' must be able to shoot down at fighters/bombers trying to fly low-level under or through the weather/haze. And how do you see the enemy to dogfight in the dark?

The AFA article seems to reference that regardless whether you want to close-in dogfight to get visual ID, the Soviets or Chinese are likely to launch radar missiles at you if you aren't a stealth aircraft...so you better be prepared to launch an AMRAAM at them first if you are an F-35 turning away or are being approached from many sides revealing less LO aircraft aspects. If several salvoed AMRAAM don't work, which seems unlikely, then I guess you dogfight as a last resort. But the very fact that the typical F-22 basic load will be 6 AMRAAM and only 2 Sidewinders tells you something.

I also don't understand the worry about visual ID when AWACS and F-22 AESA can track enemy aircraft almost from take-off and well over enemy territory, where outbound friendlies shouldn't be unless AWACS knows about it.

Dogfighting also seems like a time issue, requiring more time for the kill, two friendlies involved if the wingman concept still applies, and leaving less time on station due to additional expenditure of fuel for both friendlies. If you are mixing it up in-close, doesn't that just prevent others from taking a long-range AMRAAM shot?

Just speculation, but check out the article link.

Posted by: Cole at February 8, 2008 01:53 PM


Roy said: "Prove that 183 F-22s have been bought & paid for,& that the check has been cashed."

As of July 31, 2007:

"Lockheed Martin Corp., Fort Worth, Texas, is being awarded a firm-fixed-price, firm-fixed-price w/economic price adjustment and cost-plus-fixed fee contract modification for $5,049,743,121.

This modification definitizes the F-22 multi-year aircraft advanced buy, Economic Ordering Quantity and Full Rate Production contract (sixty aircraft, Lots 7, 8 and 9).

At this time, $332,519.681 has been obligated. This work will be complete June 2012. For questions please call (937) 904-5340. Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8611-06-C-2899/no modification number at this time)."

There were 103 aircraft as of Oct 16, 2007. Don't know what quantity the above 60 aircraft multi-year buy brings you up to. Guess there will be at least 187 aircraft as of now, with additional builds deferred to the next administration.

Posted by: Cole at February 8, 2008 12:50 PM


Based on the last few comments it appears to be "opinion as truth" time so I guess I'll throw mine out there.

DOD weapons programs are getting so out of hand because of two primary factors:

1. Shrinking US manufacturing/engineering base - After years of manufacturing and engineering expertise effectively moving overseas, and with a general flow of US college graduates out of engineering disciplines, the engineering foundation on which cutting edge military rests has significantly narrowed. While the US is still capable of developing advanced systems, the number of active DOD programs has exceeded the MIC's (military industristrial complex) ability to deliver effectively on all of them. And don't even get me started on profiteerring...

2. No soldier want to be a program manager - As the systems specified by the DOD become more complex and are tasked with delivering larger feature sets, the number of variables in each program is increasing non linearly. This creates a oversight challenge for the Pentagon that the US military is not really designed to handle. As a result, more and more oversight is being subcontracted out to the companies doing the work and of course then you get the fox guarding the henhouse.

Posted by: hunter at February 8, 2008 12:18 PM


"Arial [sic] Dog Fighting is a pre-Gulf War tactic... or easily could be."

No, it isn't.

"With all the Micro/nano/SLR/xpnder technology available now, it is possible to spent just 10% of our budget in rear firing defensive weapons..."

Dude, just dude...are you serious?

"and add a "100% offensive" button on the pilot's joy stick that would automatically target anything and anyone in range that does not have the correct transponder signal,"

Why even have fighters anymore? Why not put Patriot/THAAD missiles with Phalanx PDS on C-5s, and haul hundreds of missiles over enemy territory?

I mean, just DUDE. This is just silly.

"dog fighting could be relegated to a footnote in the next Jane's edition."

It must be some sort of huge conspiracy that every country in the world has kept the fighter in such high prominence, when the answer was a XBox 360 away.

DUUUUUDE...

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 8, 2008 11:40 AM


History teaches us nothing, it seems. Arial Dog Fighting is a pre-Gulf War tactic... or easily could be. With all the Micro/nano/SLR/xpnder technology available now, it is possible to spent just 10% of our budget in rear firing defensive weapons, and add a "100% offensive" button on the pilot's joy stick that would automatically target anything and anyone in range that does not have the correct transponder signal, dog fighting could be relegated to a footnote in the next Jane's edition. To get a far better and vastly cheaper weapons platform, forget the 'fighter mafia' (and the US Gov't), and subcontract it all out to Sony!

Posted by: Bill at February 8, 2008 11:04 AM


Prove that 183 F-22s have been bought & paid for,& that the check has been cashed.

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 8, 2008 10:50 AM


The 183 figure for total number of F-22s is nothing more than a "line of credit." A "line of credit" that can either go up......or down.
Also,incompetence in procurement will be a moot point if we end up with a president only interested in "domestic issues" over international & who feels that the greatest terrorist threat is the domestic,American,non-Islamic "terrorist."

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 8, 2008 10:45 AM


This is the typical, bleeding-heart liberal, left-wing, wacko drivel written by Ivy Tower weenies who have probably never served a day in the Armed Forces.
They don't even mention the real problems driving defense costs to astronomical heights:
1. Uncontrolled litigation -- Makes the cost of doing business in this country absurd compared to the rest of the world.
2. Unions -- Drive personnel costs to absurd levels.
3. Near-mandatory employer provided health benefits -- Ditto. Third-party-payer systems always drive costs out of sight.
4. Dependence upon foreign oil for energy -- Because these same left-wing wackos labor to prevent development of nuclear energy and more domestic oil.
5. Left-wing politicians' influence on procurement -- Delays in efficient, cost-effective production.

Posted by: RobS at February 8, 2008 10:42 AM


...the US spends more on defense since WWII? ...Data shows that the US has killed more civilians than the enemy in Afghanistan? Come on.

The defense of the Republic is REQUIRED by the Constitution. All the other government powers/programs have been absconded, but that is getting off topic.

Should the Defense Dept spend money better? Yes, without question! The problem is with the former. The US Government wastes a large portion of the national treasure on Social programs and other "failures" that contribute nothing to society and this Republic. Most defense project cost / benefits should be measured beyond the product deliverable. Defense Tech contributions to this society are immeasurable.

Defense spending should measured relative to the budget, relative to the GDP (11+ trillion last time I checked). It should be required by law that it is x% of the budget. Even the novice economist would rip these guys a new one for comparing absolute values today with the past.

It doesn't take a social scientist (sic) to recognize the dubious numbers on Civilian deaths. While I agree with the authors that the Taliban and other groups are failure/losers, their assertions are bogus. You are "who you hang with". If people are running around with guns in your neighborhood, either eliminate them or get out of dodge. Simple.

Stop tying the war fighter"s hands and give them the tools they need. If the Government would let the war fighter fight, then we could accurately measure weather the F-22 or the Zumwalt DDG is worth the money. The real theme of this story is incompetence? It is obvious of whose!

Posted by: Blake at February 8, 2008 10:09 AM


Pierre and John Boyd are correct in the areas of energy manuverability and BFM but what was missed was requirements creep on the F-22. Too much airplane, too many bells and whistles. Look at the F-35 same thing. Augustine's Law will come true. One airplane shared by all. And the generation of "fighter Pilots" flying form a computer room at Nellis with a UAV.

Posted by: JimB at February 8, 2008 09:44 AM


The biggest problem with deciding how many F-22s we need versus how many we are actually going to get is that the Bush administration has totally punted the decision to the next administration to make.
"If" John McCain wins the presidency(because he looks like the front runner for the GOP),then the administration's theme will be international & the Air Force will have a greater chance of getting more F-22s(if congress is willing to fund it) & get their F-35s sooner(again,if congress is willing to fund it)."If" however Hillary Clinton or Barrack Obama becomes president,there is the very real possibility that we'll disengage from the "Global War on Terror",withdraw our forces from Iraq,Afghanistan,& maybe even Europe(bye bye nice built up Grafenwoehr,I'd loved that place & its Baskin Robbins Ice cream whenever I had to go there to train),South Korea,Japan,& Okinawa.
Forget Sprey,you better worry about who the next president is going to be & how much stronger a grip that the Democratic Party will have on congress.
Right now,our army is using tactics in the urbam areas that will be ideal for use as a domestic gendarmerie.If Hillary is elected(I believe she is our next president,the script just hasn't been written yet as to how she "accomplished" it),our armed forces will be no more than just that.Strykers will be ideal for such a task,F-22 Raptors & F-35 JSFs,not so much.She will cancel ALL programs that do not contribute to local crowd control when she finally uses all of those dictatorial powers given her by George W. Bush's Patriot Act legislation.
Anybody reading this,answer me this,how will the F-22 &/or the F-35 contribute to Hillary's "War on 'Domestic Terrorists'?" That my friends is what Hillary will concentrate on,"Domestic(not Islamofascist,but Neo-Nazi,KKK,Militias,anyone with a "swingin' richard" is a domestic terrorist in Hillary's eyes) Terrorism."
She will use the words of those who say that nobody poses a credible air threat(which has been said a lot here I might add) to us to justify continuing to fund & build more F-22s(she might even cut off funding for the F-22s that is part of the 183 originally planned that haven't been built yet & cancel them.Come on,you can't tell me that all 183 F-22s are already built? You can tell the ones who are in credit card debt by how they count planes NOT BUILT YET as part of the total figure.)
I'm going to start calling the "183 F-22 total",the "VISA/American Express" estimate,because they are counting in the figure,again,planes not built yet.

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 8, 2008 09:34 AM


I read your blog every day. All I can say is that your arguments echo mine exactly. I am VERY angry over this complete misuse of resources.

/Army

Posted by: ab at February 8, 2008 06:39 AM


"A major part of those "collateral" civilian casualties come from aircraft flying too fast and too high to positively identify exactly what they are guiding their munitions to."

-Bzzzzzzzzzzz! Wrong.

Posted by: ELP at February 8, 2008 06:15 AM


Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Posted by: frankie at February 8, 2008 04:48 AM


c-low, at roughly $1400 per ounce for an active service F22 (by the author's measure), the aircraft is considerably more expensive than you seem to think it is worth (given that today's closing for gold is a hair over $900 per ounce).

this is why I prefer not to look at the problem this way. I very much agree with the sentiment expressed by other respondents. the f22 program is a ~ $60 billion insurance program to guarantee air superiority.

the program may be expensive but it is not the reason America is in a recession. all the money spent on these planes, save for a few avionics parts, is spent in America.

think of it this way, its a welfare program that ends up leaving us with air superiority.

Posted by: Evangeline at February 8, 2008 03:05 AM


Seems to me that all the fighter pilots I've talked to that have actually had the opportunity to fight the F-22 have said that in ACM it's a completely unfair fight, they can't compete against it. In a recent exercise an F-22 went 1v12 against F-15's and killed them all, and the squadron had a 108-0 kill ratio. It can turn so hard that the pilot doesn't even have to maneuver for a kill, because he can just point the nose and turn inside of anything on the planet. The desk jockey's who wrote this piece of trash need to ask a real fighter pilot, or get back into their cubicles.

Posted by: Andrew at February 8, 2008 01:04 AM


I can't believe I'm still going on about this, but where would the F-16 be today had it not been for the F-117 stealth fighter, which can carry only two laser-guided bombs, just like the F-22? I seriously doubt the F-16 would have stood any kind of chance against the integrated air defense system of Saddam Hussein back in Desert Storm. Hundreds of pilots would have lost their lives without the stealth capabilities of the F-117, which, despite its small bomb load, was almost entirely responsible for destroying the system's command and control centers and rendering it ineffective.

What a bunch of morons.

Posted by: Arcane at February 8, 2008 12:31 AM


I'm very glad that SMSgt Mac pointed out that little fact about the F-16 and Sprey. If F-16 critics back then, like Sprey today on the F-22, had their way, the F-16 would have been cancelled and Sprey would have even less of a leg to stand on.

Even then, he doesn't actually stand on his leg. He just sits in front of a computer and spews out lies.

Posted by: Arcanea at February 8, 2008 12:26 AM


What a hock of crap. You should be ashamed of having posted this filthy piece of inaccurate propaganda that has nothing to do with the purpose of this blog. I could easily write a dozen page essay refuting most of the "points" made by these authors. But one statement that really hit a nerve was this:

"Unfortunately, we can expect that same tiny F-22 force to attrite all too rapidly in combat for the simple reason that the Air Force no longer adequately supports pilot training. F-22 pilots get only ten to twelve hours of flight training per month. When we provided 20 to 25 hours per month to train pilots for Vietnam, our pilots complained - rightly - it was inadequate. At the height of their prowess in the 1960s and '70s, the Israelis gave their fighter pilots 40 to 50 hours of flight training per month."

What they're saying is that we should ditch all these new aviation programs because we're supposedly cutting the amount of time spent on training, a statement that is absolutely false. I'm an aircraft maintenance officer in the Air Force who has worked on various aging airframes and worked with individuals who have worked on even more aging airframes. The reason pilots are getting so little training is because the airframes are so old it's damn near impossible to keep them in the air long enough to get effective training, and once they land they usually have so many issues that it takes countless man-hours to get the thing in a mission capable condition again. Manpower cuts directed by Congress have severely hurt my organization and individuals are regularly forced to work 12-14 hour shifts just to keep the damn things flying.

The number of effective training hours that crews receive will continue to decline until we get new airframes. Many of our crews can't even meet their RAP requirements.

This article is packed full of lies, absolute lies, but that was one of the worst and most hypocritical. Pathetic!

Posted by: Arcane at February 8, 2008 12:20 AM


I am sorry but for all the BS regulation and expenditure's the federal government does, the military defense and well being/benefit of THIS NATION is one of the few constitutionally required.

I am by no means ready to trade US lives to save money for social programs.

The US has so long stayed unchallengeable in the air, allowing our near absolute domination of the conventional battle field. That savings my friends is blood, US soldier blood.

True, a F-22 may be overkill for a insurgent war but we will never have a insurgent problem if we cannot dominate and win the conventional field.

If China tries Taiwan or say Russia tries Georgia those F-22's will be worth their wait in gold.

Peace is only achieved through overwhelming DOMINANCE. Think about it very simply for all to understand in school, who got picked on the scrawny kid or the big kid. Ever Wonder WHY??? Who was forced to fight MORE???

Posted by: C-Low at February 7, 2008 11:55 PM


so many LIES i don't even know where to start

> But also, the F-22 has operating limitations. While it can carry two medium sized bombs to attack ground targets

LIE

> each A-10 can deliver per day eight times, or more, the payload that an F-22 can

LIE

> A major part of those "collateral" civilian casualties come from aircraft flying too fast and too high to positively identify exactly what they are guiding their munitions to.

LIE

> As such, the F-22 is too "thin-skinned" to endure ground fire

FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST

the A-10 is receiving upgrades to allow it to attack from altitude, so even your heavily-armored A-10 isn't mucking around in the dirt

the future of CAS is altitude, period

> We contend that as an individual performer in real world air-to-air combat, the F-22 is a huge disappointment.

STUPIDLY IGNORANT OPINION

> The Air Force vociferously disagrees - based on its hypothesis that air wars can be fought and won by long range, radar-controlled missiles fired at enemies you cannot see or visually

LIE

the F-22 is built to have great in-close superiority

> This "beyond-visual-range," radar-missile hypothesis has been tested in real world combat, and it has failed repeatedly.

MISLEADING/IRRELEVANT

limited sample from 30+ years ago, electronics have improved greatly since then

> that $65.3 billion will only buy 184 aircraft, not enough to be a real threat to any major opposing air power.

LIE

that is more planes than all but a small handful of entire airforces in the world

MISLEADING

1500+ F-35s? hello? is that sufficient quantity for you?

> Various estimates are circulating in the Pentagon to buy an additional 198 F-22s at a "flyaway" cost that varies from $176.8 million to $216.3 million per copy.

LIE

(try closer to $140 million at the high end)

> Even in the wars the F-22 advocates postulate against a Chinese or Russian air force, the F-22 is deeply flawed

COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED

in what way is the F-22 deeply flawed? please share. It's one of the stealthiest planes in the world, it has world class radar and electronics, it has more 'useful' speed (ie that lasts more than 2 minutes) than any fighter in the world, it's as manoueverable as any fighter in the world, where is this deep flaw that you speak of?

> . Nowhere do these talk about a dangerous new air threat that explains the need for more F-22s. Instead, they focus on the 44 states that will receive corporate spending and jobs.

please share how that is different THAN ANY OTHER DEFENSE PROGRAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY

pandering to politicians is how the game is played

Posted by: irtusk at February 7, 2008 09:46 PM


Sure, pure propaganda. Reminds of the CDI's war against missile defense. Two little things, to add to all the good stuff above:

So we have now 183 airframes, and it is too few to be meaningful in an air-to-air conflict with a peer. On the other hand, the authors do not want us to buy any more of those. So what do you do with the existing stock - scrap it? Isn't it more efficient to keep buying to reach the "meaningful" number (which the authors never specify) than scrap what we have?

The authors complain that, even in its main role, in air-to-air, F-22 is no good, but they do not advance a single argument to support this statement. From what I know, every metrics that matter in a dogfight favors the F-22.

Posted by: Michael at February 7, 2008 09:12 PM


If I remember correctly, nobody liked the M-16 when it was being developed and released either. Look at the reputation it has today. With time and use, the cost per unit has dropped dramatically while the rifle itself has been refined to almost legendary status. As an old Gulf War Marine, In Kuwait, most of the CAS I saw came from helicopters anyway. I don't see the problem with the F-22 as an operational aircraft for the military. These guys just need to lighten up and give the airplane a chance to prove itself.

Posted by: C. Jackson at February 7, 2008 08:37 PM


Yawn. Good to see in the comments that I'm not the only one unimpressed.
This is the same dog in a different dress from good ole' CDI.
Expect this kind of output whenever there's talk of more F-22s. See http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2006/10/worth-money.html and http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/2006/10/f-22-critics-not-what-they-used-to-be.html
for comments on the LAST hit piece these guys put out in in a September '06 Jane's Defense Weekly.

I also thought at first that irt was my local paper that called Sprey 'one of the three designers'. Very disingenuous - he was one of the Mafia (a 'junior' member at that) who helped shape and sheppard the REQUIREMENTS for the Lightweight Fighter competition. Whoever ID'd him as a 'designer' (and I doubt very much Mr Sprey claims that title) must work in marketing.

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at February 7, 2008 08:11 PM


I would normally read all of the other comments first before making my own. HOWEVER, not today.

So our military and defense industry costs more than all other countries on the planet. SO WHAT!

Our defense industry engineers have base salaries in the 40K range. (A personal friend makes in the 80K range.) That income is well above anybody else on the planet. These engineers own wonderful homes, drive nice cars, and have the worlds best medical insurance - also partially paid for by their employers.

Our military is the best educated and best paid on the planet. Lets not forget that they are an ALL VOLUNTEER force. Curiously, the lowest ranks are actually paid below the official poverty level for this country.

Yes, our protection costs alot. SO DOES EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS COUNTRY.

Now lets compare GNP percent spent on defense compared to GNP spent on entitlements - i.e. all of those free-loaders suckling off of the government and who are unwilling to work.

Posted by: CTR1(SW) at February 7, 2008 06:23 PM


A couple of comments

In comparing home schooling with public ed, my costs included all the extra activities and such. As for supporting a teacher, most kids come with a mom. When the kids get older, they teach themselves. I don't want to take this discussion to far off topic but I stand by my analysis. I can do better with far less. So could most people.

There are situations where people have special needs. The rule is not to teach each student with the expensive solution, only those who need it. The same with childbirth. The same with military spending. I maintain we use a few force multipliers and then go with quantity. If we were really good, we can get both.

As for dogfighting, I teach hand-to-hand martial arts. I know what it is to dogfight without an airplane, particularly using wrestling. I have thousands of hours experience in this non-lethal combat. For somebody to tell me guns make hand-to-hand obsolete I would laugh at them.

But if I have a choice, I would prefer to shoot my enemy from 500 yards away while maintaining hidden. I never said dogfighting is never important, just if there is a better way to safely take out an opponent, do so from as far away as possible. Our missile technology in the past did not reliably do so.

But things change. At some point the missile technology becomes good enough to render the knife fight mostly obsolete. One always trains for every scenario, but we should prefer the safest one from the greatest distance.

The question is has that point been reached. I believe so. So do many others. It has been an evolution in technology to the present and in the future will even get better. The F-22 is designed for the future. It is a force multiplier.

But we must also be efficient. Having the right mix of quality to quality is straightforward economy of force with limited money. To debate this threshold is healthy. To test it in war games is proper. We get the feedback and see if we are right. I believe that data says the F-22 does indeed work.

We also need a variety of tools in our arsenal. We should use the right tool for the job. Clearly the F-22 is not the tool for Iraq and Afghanistan. A-10s are. We need both in the right numbers. I think most of us here all agree on these points.

One of Boyd's big beefs was that the military industrial complex is out of control. Is this not something else we all agree upon? If we can get costs down the whole F-22 debate, or whatever new system we happen to discuss, goes away.

That is why I brought up education and health care spending. We have to think outside the box to get true innovation. Solutions exists and we have to be able to kill sacred cows and reform them into better but different solutions. These new solutions are not based on opinion but on scientific principles.

This was the core of the fighter mafia revolution. The F16 and other solutions were not the starting point but the conclusion. As technology changes and needs change, so to the equations and so do the solutions. We have to adjust with a faster tempo to this changing needs and tech. While the F-16 might be the perfect solution for yesterday, it might not be today or tomorrow.

But costs are starting to be the limiting factor. We are approaching our nation's credit limit. We don't need better solutions as much as we need cheaper solutions. Since so much of our military technology is based on computers, this should be possible. We should get twice as much for half the cost.

Also, we really need to examine our starting premises too. I do not think the US should be the world's policeman and make alliances to throw our dog into every fight. Once we wise up, we will find our needs are much less.

When we do need to fight, we need to fight more efficiently and unconventionally. We tend to use the hammer rather than the surgeon's knife. Or let others be the hammer.

Personally, I'd give South Korea, Japan, and Tawain a few nukes and then bring all our troops home from the Pacific. I'd bring all our troops home from Europe. As soon as possible, I'd bring them home from the Middle East too.

If people want to fight and kill each other off, we don't stop them. We allow refugees to flee and help them get on their feet here or elsewhere. It would cost far less in the end and make us lots of friends not enemies.

Posted by: morpheus at February 7, 2008 06:02 PM


Is this a serious post? How can one ignore so many mitigating factors and solely focus on a number?

Posted by: Dark Horse at February 7, 2008 06:00 PM


As others point out. The raw # of defense dollars is meaningless and misleading.

An honest comparison is % of GDP. We are at 3.5% Not an extraordinary amount or historically very high, and we probably should be at 4%.

Posted by: jim at February 7, 2008 05:46 PM


Various thoughts:

* Raw numbers aren't everything. Much more accurate bombs, for example, should imply that we need fewer aircraft and less bomb load capacity. Faster air to air combat fighters that are significantly superior to potential opponents should make it possible to achieve our goals with fewer aircraft.

* In the same way, guided weapons and increased automation should reduce the need for Army soldiers with artillery specialties and the number of artillery batteries we need and the amount of ordinance we require.

* The area where technology provides the least room for force reduction with continued high capability is the infantry soldier. So, Army and Marine cuts have been more of a blow to our military power than Air Force cuts, for example.

* Despite efforts like the Littoral Combat Ship to rethink our naval strategy, the U.S. Navy simultaneously has intense shortfalls, in areas like ASW and mine warfare effectiveness and fast sealift, and massive overkill in areas like blue sea ship to ship combat capabilities where the U.S. faces few meaningful threats. The collapse of the Russian Navy has dramatically changed our needs, and one great thing about military naval planning is that major new developments that make your opponents stronger usually have lots of lead time.

* U.S. military planners are too detached from the notion that generally war is a team sport that needs to take into account the capabilities of our allies rather than assuming that we will go it alone.

* U.S. military planners do a poor job of specifically matching our capabilities to those needed to take on our most potent allies in the kinds of conflicts we are likely to face. For example, they should be asking "what do we need to do in a fight with China during a Taiwan invasion with Taiwan's cooperation?" and "What do we need to do to protect Japan and South Korea from Chinese and North Korean and Russian overtures, respectively (but probably not in concert) with assistance from Japan and South Koreea? To some extent this may be a product of overemphasizing conflict with the Soviet block which presented a very different kind of threat than the ones that Russia today, and other potential conflicts do now.

* We engaged in well meaning, but in hindsight excessive standardization efforts with the F-35 fighter acquisition at the expense of producing expensive one size fits solutions instead of multiple types of planes for different threats.

In point of fact, a couple hundred F-22s to replace almost three times as many F-15s probably isn't such a horrible decision, especially when you are looking at marginal costs now that R&D is a sunk cost.

But, the F-35 is a poor match for close air support, counterinsurgency and homeland defense roles, considering its cost. At $30 million a plane, one size fits for as many missions as possible almost makes sense. But as the F-35 has grown far more expensive per unit, chosing the F-35 over cheaper aircraft designed to be optimal in fewer situations to go up against tanks in situations when we have air superiority, against errant commercial and general aviation aircraft, and against insurgent troop camps in third world deserts and jungles looks like a bad idea (e.g. with its expensive to buy and maintain radar stealth for missions when the bad guys won't have radar, and large bomb bay capabilities in fighters that defend NYC, DC and Chicago).

Similarly, it looks like the Air Force would rather have the F-22 than the F-35A for air to air combat. This change of tune again is in part because cost blot in the F-35A. The F-35A looks much better when you are getting four to seven of them for each F-22 than it does when you are getting 3 F-35As for each 2 F-22.

In short, in retrospect, the number of missions for which the F-35A is the best choice given its current price looks much smaller than it used to.

Also, the notion that economies of scale are critical makes less sense for the largest military in the world than it does for a small country. We don't actually need commonality of maintenance between the Navy and the Air Force, for example. As it is, the F-35C, for example, will actually increase maintenance burdens within individual carriers where commonality of maintenance is valuable (hence the early demise of the F-14). Canning the F-35C variant at a time when the Navy is pretty happy with its F-18s and is looking seriously into a greater role for UCAVs would be a positive step.

Posted by: ohwilleke at February 7, 2008 05:33 PM


The real problem is with the politicians.If Hillary is elected,we'll more than likely stop fighting the War on Terror with the Islamic Terrorists & concentrate on the Domestic Terrorist(Neo-Nazi,KKK,Militia Groups,& anybody who dares to believe in the constitution & actually carries a copy of it around with it.Yes,as far a Hillary is concerned,anybody who believes in & carries around the constitution is no better than a racist).This way,she can cancel various weapons systems,because you don't need an F-22 or F-35 to fight domestic terrorists.Those of you who want to keep & see the F-22 & F-35 programs continue,you need to convince Hillary how they are good for bringing down privately owned Piper Cubs being flown by private citizens & you can obviously use a cheap Super Tucano for that.
With Hillary in office it will be pre-9/11 & the Clinton 90s all over again.I also read that Bill Clinton tried to get the F-22 cancelled.
Under Hillary,our armed forces will be reduced to being a domestic Gendarmerie supplied only with the equipment to keep an unarmed domestic populace in line.

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 7, 2008 05:24 PM


Maybe its just the politics getting in the way of everything.

Politicians following corrupt, indulgent, and ill-thought out agendas.
Top brass that where never mud dogs.
Analysts analyzing unscientifically.

People being fools in general.

In this case, it was also fools who wrote with an angry pen! You should never do that and publish it!
Unless its poetry.

Its true that we spend way too much; and its also true that we will need what we buy at some point.
And we need it at a reasonable price.
And we need a lot of it.

Maybe some Engineers should come in and re-structure the Pentagon... then they can give 'counseling sessions' to all the politicians...

Posted by: Patron Vectras at February 7, 2008 04:50 PM


Seeker6079,

The F-22 costs per aircraft are much higher than the F-35 for a few reasons. The first is that nearly half the cost of the F-22 comes from research and development. We spent 28 billion dollars on the F-22 before a single fighter was ever built. We started spending that money in the late 80s and through the 90s. It's already spent. You can't get that investment back. Much of the technology that was developed (at great cost) for the F-22 was then carried over and used in the F-35. So they did not have to spend nearly the same amount on development for the F-35 as they did for the Raptor. It's like Sherriff Bart says in Blazing Saddles: "The real bitch was inventing the candygram."

The F-22 will have a higher per-airplane cost the fewer you buy. Actually, that's true for any airplane. If it takes $28 billion to develop the tech for the Raptor, then if you only buy one airplane, it just cost $28 billion and change. If you buy two, then they cost $14 billion and change each. Congress (over time) cut the order for the F-22 from 750 initialy to about 180. This causes a HUGE increase in price-per-aircraft. You may be spending less money overall, but each one becomes more and more expensive. The F-35 never had the initial development cost that the Raptor did (basically being a stripped down version of the Raptor, most of the tech developed for the F-22 was used on the F-35), and it hasn't seen the massive numbers cuts that the F-22 has.

As far as superiority goes, the Raptor is without doubt the better aircraft. The only question is, is it better enough to justify the higher cost? Possibly. It really depends on what wars we fight in the future. It may be overkill, but we won't know that until another war happens.

Posted by: Brian at February 7, 2008 04:47 PM


In my last comment the 2nd paragraph is a quote from the main essay - my attempt to blockquote it was stripped out.

Posted by: Andy at February 7, 2008 04:27 PM


There are many problems with the analysis in this essay, but I will just point out a few:

A major part of those "collateral" civilian casualties come from aircraft flying too fast and too high to positively identify exactly what they are guiding their munitions to.

This, more than anything else, demonstrates the authors have no real understanding of air operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. I won't bother to ask for supporting documentation for this assertion because I know none exists. With very few exceptions, ordnance dropped is requested by, ordered, and coordinated with the ground force. There are very, very few situations where aircraft independently engage ground targets and those that do are almost always UAV's under very restricted ROE. The vast amount of ordnance dropped is ordered by the ground force and the authority to drop typically rests with their JTAC. The author's statement above is simply wrong - there is no other way to characterize it.

Furthermore, the authors make a commonly-heard argument and spend a lot of space on the efficacy of the F-22 in today's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their wording suggests to an uninformed reader that the F-22 has somehow been advertised to fill some role in these conflicts, but it has not. Also, the authors seem to buy into the simplistic and common argument that a system irrelevant to the current war should not be funded. Anyone who believes this should be the case would be forced to cease funding most of the military as useless to the current conflicts.

Someone else here suggested the author's are living in the 1970's and looking at their comments on BVR and dogfighting, I would have to agree. Air combat has fundamentally changed, even without the F-22. In their apparent era methods to ID targets BVR were limited or nonexistent and BVR weapons required flight profiles that resulted in an eventual merge and transition to a dogfight. None of these factors apply today and with the F-22 and it's supercruise and LO characteristics it is never forced to dogfight, unlike every previous generation of aircraft. If it chooses to dogfight it does so on its own terms. In short, with the F-22 the traditional transition from BVR to merge, to maneuvers to gain a shot is gone. The authors really should do some research on current technology and capabilities and how it's changed the tactical environment.

Finally, I would note that this essay is advertised as a treatise on defense spending corruption and/or incompetence but it really comes off as just another rehashed attack on the F-22. Be that as it may, I agree with the author's larger point on the rising costs of military systems and agree that something must change and greater accountability and cost controls must be implemented. It's unfortunate the authors spent the majority of their essay on the F-22 rather than exploring this larger issue further, much less proposing solutions to the serious and vexing problems in military procurement.

Posted by: Andy at February 7, 2008 04:25 PM


Morpheus,

You can't really compare the costs of educating your own child through home-schooling to the costs of educating a randomly-selected child in a public school. Of course it will cost more to educate a child in a school. The school has to pay teacher salaries, you don't. The school has to cover teacher health care, you don't. The school has to cover a wider range of subjects and provide a wider range of services. You don't have to provide special ed classes or gifted classes, or english as a second language classes unless those fit the needs of your children. You don't have to provide funding for after school activities, sports, clubs, or choir programs. You are able to tailor the education you provide to your children, and are able to cut out a lot of costs. Schools cannot.

The same thing goes with hiring midwives. The women in your family may be able to make due with those. The women in my family cannot have children without a c-section. Our costs are always going to be higher than $10K per birth. Merely because the average cost is higher than the cost you pay does not mean that the money is wasted. It just means that you are very capable of managing your own private finances.

The same applies to military technology and spending. Too often people look to place the blame for high costs on a particular weapon system. In reality, the blame lies elsewhere, and not always with a person. Sometimes it is simply bad circumstances that leads to high costs. The F-22 is a miracle of engineering. It is a quantum leap ahead of any other aircraft in the sky or on the drawing board. A high cost is a given. Beyond that, the cost of the airplane would be much more affordable had Congress not cut so much of the order in an attempt to pinch pennies.

Posted by: Brian at February 7, 2008 04:24 PM


This article expresses exactly how I feel about the current procurement strategy. We could write similar articles about many other programs. Basic issue is that instead of getting 80% of the capability at 20% of the cost, we get 90% of the promised capability at 300% of the cost. That is a fundamentally bad tradeoff. There is also the issue of carrying cost. A $1 bn ship will cost not only the typical (rule of thumb) cost of 25% of the cost of the ship over five years, but also a carrying cost of about 5% a year- (the price of debt), or about as much as it costs to operate.

The clear way to solve this problem is to charge the military budget for a capital carrying cost, just like in private industry. There is a real economic cost in carrying stuff 'just in case'. Not to say we shouldn't be prepared, just that there are real costs here which are not recognized in the budget.

Posted by: rIX at February 7, 2008 04:16 PM


"Is not a key question for the next decades, "how large a proportion of air combat can be done with different unmanned air platforms"?"

The technology is not there yet. Neither is the law. We don't know to what capacity UAVs and UCAVs can replace - if they can at all - manned platforms.

And it's not a trivial matter; there are large hurdles here. I'm confident they shall be overcome, but not blithely so.

So the key is decades. It will take decades to sort out the robots in combat issue.

Of course, that is another reason that we won't have to replace our current fighters 1:1 with the F-22/F-35. A 2:1 replacement, until the older fighters break altogether and can be supplemented with UCAVs, would work well. The key is having enough F-22s to meet worldwide commitments, which is more than the 100+ currently allotted.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 7, 2008 03:56 PM


I'm not as conversant with this debate as I could be, but two things leap out.

First, there is no mention of the F-35. Is the F-22 that much better that it merits the disproportionately huge investment and ongoing cost for such a small number of aircraft?

Second, and perhaps more importantly, there is no mention of unmanned air combat vehicles. Is not a key question for the next decades, "how large a proportion of air combat can be done with different unmanned air platforms"?

Posted by: seeker6079 at February 7, 2008 03:39 PM


Every time these "Fighter Mafia" guys open their mouths they prove once againt how they are stuck in the 1960-70's. The F-22 IS NOT INTENDED to fight today's war but TOMORROW'S! And tomorrow's war may be VERY different from today's...You fight wars with what you HAVE, not what you wish you had!

Sure the 2009 US defence budget is "more" than any previous & is more than the defence budgets of the rest of the world combined BUT that is only part the story. 1st: Just from inflation alone if you spent the same "constant dollar" amount of money every year, the actual $ would be higher from year to year. 2nd: The US economy (thankfully) & tax revenue is pretty much ALWAYS expanding/increasing so if you spent the same % of the GDP &/or tax revenue every year, the actual $ would be higher. 3rd: The US is now the world's lone superpower & the responsibilities of such REQUIRE more than if we were not a superpower OR if there was another (friendly) superpower to spread the costs around. How much of the US defense budget is ACTUALLY spent in the defense of countries other than the US?

And (of course) they fair to understand the REAL reasons why defense is so much more expensive today than it was in the past...

It is just LAME to dis a weapon system for not being what it was not intended to be. The F-22 is not & was never intended to be a COIN aircraft.

Posted by: pfcem at February 7, 2008 03:13 PM


What he forgot to mention is that in air to air tests against other aircraft such as the f-15 and f-16s is that the f-22 had a kill ration of 100-1. They would even stack 5 f-15s against one f-22 and the result was that all f-15 were defeated before they even knew where the f22 was. In addition an f22 even flew by the cockpit of the f-15 before the pilot knew the f-22 was there. So to say that it would perform poorly in an air to air fight is ridiculous. In addition, migs piloted by Indian pilots defeated American pilots flying f-15s in excersies. That shows the need for a next generation aircraft.

Posted by: Eddie at February 7, 2008 02:54 PM


"I think that their place now is as prominent members of our own armchair defense strategist community."

Heh. Cheers!

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 7, 2008 02:26 PM


Does anyone remember why we have less than we did in 1985? Can you say Surplus at the end of the Clinton Admin? It was the Clintons that said we didnt need so much.

Posted by: Carlos at February 7, 2008 02:15 PM


The DoD needs to re-learn a lesson from WW2. Using armor as an example, the American and Soviet armor overcame the Germans through sheer numbers - we simply out-produced them. As the War wore on, the Germans persisted in developing "state of the art" armor, but were unable to afford more than a small number.

Sounds kinda familiar.... We would be better served, IMHO, to build out the replacements for the fighter base (as an example) on a one-for-one basis based upon what we can afford to buy.

Developing a new fighter and then buying 20 of them is just plain stupid, I don't care how great they are. One "lucky bullet" destroying 5% of your fighter complement is inexcusable.
(almost as dumb as building combat aircraft with a MTBF of less than one flight)

Posted by: John at February 7, 2008 02:13 PM


Roy,

What are you talking about? Morpheus didn't claim that pilots don't need to know about dogfighting, he only said that it's possible that the dogfight is becoming outdated by advances in missile technology. And he's right: thrust vectoring and hyper-maneuverability in a fighter makes for a pretty airshow demonstration, but the human pilot imposes some hard limits on just how much you can maneuver the aircraft. The limit of +9/-3g hasn't changed much since the 1970s, and there are limits on how much angular rate a human can tolerate as well. In contrast, missiles are being designed that have no problems with 30+ g maneuvers. Why turn your ass off in a maneuvering contest if you've got excellent sensors and avionics and your missile can fly off the rail and turn 180° to hit the guy behind you? Add hypersonic capabilities to the missile, and your opponent doesn't even have time to react.

Sprey and the fighter mafia are wonderfully arrogant men who like to struggle against conventional wisdom. Their efforts in the 1970s provoked a revolution in aircraft systems, but their philosophy has some definite limitations. I think that their place now is as prominent members of our own armchair defense strategist community.

Posted by: George Skinner at February 7, 2008 02:05 PM


morpheus,
I'm not trying to criticize you or single you out.I just know that there are people out there who totally discount the need to know how to dogfight or what to do,if by chance,an enemy aircraft comes within visual range.They use the excuse of how we have better missiles(minus the AIM-54 Phoenix Missile[retired] & the AIM-155 Advanced Air-to-Air Missile/Outer Air battle Missile[canceled]) & when that argument is exposed as fraudulent,then they say that we have no credible air threats against us(because the US,Europe,Russia,Pakistan,China,& India are all having a big Kumbiya moment with each other).
Now,truthfully we won't need the F-22 when the New World Order One World Government comes into power because then,the only enemy will be unarmed,defenseless civilians,& you can use the Super Tucano to shoot them up,right?

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 7, 2008 02:05 PM


morpheus,
Never,Never,NEVER underestimate the importance of knowing how to dogfight.Its arrogance in downgrading the importance of such skills that will get our pilots killed.I don't give a damn how "great" our air-to-air missiles are.They are only medium range since the navy for one killed off all of their long range air-to-air missiles.
I can't help but think of the arrogance that the New England Patriots had in not kicking field goals against the Giants,or the arrogance that Rumsfeld & the Neo-Con "Artists" had in not sending enough troops into both Afghanistan & Iraq the first time in invading both countries.To pooh pooh the very valid threat instead of "expecting & planning for the worst" which really helped during Desert Storm & greatly reduced our casualties.
I don't want to be insulting to you or anybody else,so I won't say how stupid I think it is to discount the need to know how to dogfight & to use those thrust vectors in evasive maneuvers.I will put this as generalized "to whom it may concern" as I can(& if the shoe fits....) "ANYBODY" who believes that dog fighting is not important is a stupid idiot & any fighter pilot who listens to them is a "dead pilot flying." Any fighter pilots reading this,DO NOT LISTEN TO the idiots telling you that your beyond visual range missiles makes you learning how to dogfight necessary.Shoot,lets close down "Top Gun" & "Red Flag" then,since we obviously don't need either anymore.

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 7, 2008 01:45 PM


I'm glad this article came up.I read somewhere that the Bush Administration is punting the decision on F-22s to the next administration.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=39236&dcn=todaysnews
"Pentagon punts decision on future F-22, C-17 production"
Seriously take the time to read this article,its talking about the Pentagon averting a showdown with congress that would SHUT DOWN production of the F-22 Raptor & the C-17.If production of the F-22 is shut down,the last F-22 will be built in 2011.

Here it is
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,161498,00.html
"Next White House to Make Call on F-22s"
That means,like it or not(& forget all of this talk of being bankrupt & the Barrack Obama surge),Hillary Clinton WILL BE(its not what I want,but it's reality) the next president.So all of you who want more F-22s better put on your kneepads & start kissing Hillary's ass.

This article recognizes the inevitable that they won't get the F-22s that they desire.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20080207.aspx
"Must Have More F-35s Sooner"
This article is about getting the F-35 JSF much sooner than 2014(because 2014 is plenty enough time for Hillary to cancel the program altogether).

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 7, 2008 01:30 PM


Pierre's article has many good points but I don't think there are only two choices here. I think there is an option C, or even options D, E and F.

As for pilot training, we have much better simulators then they had back during Vietnam, so one cannot compare apples to apples here. Are we just comparing hours in the air or do simulators count too?

The whole question of firing missiles beyond visual range begs for real world current data. Yes there were problems in the past. But what about today? The experience of a fighter pilot forty years ago can become dated. The question is what about now? Obviously our missiles are better then in the past. The question is whether they are good enough today.

As for ROE dictating visual confirmation before firing, yes we do that now because we are not in a big bad WWIII fight. We take the time because we have the time. But if push ever came to shove, you can bet the ROE would change. Therefore, the need to dog fight has become less important.

Notice I never said not important, just less important. Even our soldiers, who can put rounds out 500 meters still train for the knife fight, because hand-to-hand still happens. However, I think the F-22 would be pretty good in a knife fight.

Of course quantity has a quality too. Think of how many F16s we could have in place of the F-22s. Add a few force multipliers and one has a potent mix. I think Sprey makes a good point with economy of force. I doubt he thinks we should have no F-22 type planes, just that most of our jets don't need to be one.

With beyond visual range, if our missiles don't work then it is not the jet's fault or the pilot's fault - we need better missiles. We shouldn't get different jets, just different missiles. There is no question firing standoff shots makes more sense if it works. I see nothing that shows this is an impossible task.

For example, if the Maverick missile can transmit video back to the firing platform, why not an air-to-air missile that the pilot can then use to id a target? He could always abort the shot if needed. So he does do visual id but doesn't have to stick his neck out. He gets visual id from beyond visual range. This is just one solution and I'm sure many others could be found.

Anyway, Pierre has many good points but leaves out some other counter points. People can argue all day on these complex issues. But there is one point that we should all agree on. We are taking too much time to develop new equipment and we are paying way to much for our military equipment.

Our country will never fall to foreign attacks, we will crumble financially from the inside. Happened to the USSR. It is happening to the US.

And it is not just a problem with our military industrial complex but with everything our government touches. I will give two examples that illustrate this.

I home school my kids. It costs me about $700 per kid per year to deliver a superior education than they would get in the public schools. The government schools average $7,000 per year per student. And that cost does not include the cost of the building and facilities. I'd estimate that would push the cost well over $10,000 per student per year, maybe closer to $14,000/yr. Conclusion - the government spends way too much on schools.

The second example is the medical costs of having kids. We use a midwife that costs just over $1,000 per birth. The average hospital birth costs about $10,000. Now what does this have to do with government? Government places restrictions on midwives and gives the doctors a monopoly in the name of our best interests. So the average childbirth cost 10 times what it should.

The fact is, everything the government touches turns to gold - the gold out of our pockets. Buying jets is no different. We have to solve this problem and it has nothing specifically to do with the military. The fact is the F-22 SHOULD cost $35 million. Then we could have our both quantity and quality.

We need the F-22, FCS, the EFV, and new destroyers but not at the price tags that are being offered. Since we are no longer in a cold war, we do need a revolution in military affairs - and that starts with price.

Posted by: morpheus at February 7, 2008 01:00 PM


"Sprey is a spurned lover who just can't get over it."

The fighter mafia had its day- basically they want us to fly something like the Gripen- great aircraft - but not suited to US needs.

Boyd and the other mafia were all about winning dogfights. Great- but we need to put bombs on target- so we need aircraft that might not be able to pull 9G's- but actually get to a target 500+ miles away with a decent bombload. That takes a larger plane- with wings not perfectly suited to airshow type manuevers.

Posted by: Mastro at February 7, 2008 12:14 PM


Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just re-open A-10 plants? Tried and true platform able to get in close.

As for advanced fighters..You can spend all that money, but if you have a pilot who flys 3 hours on the weekend, they won't be ready for a major conflict.

Talk about helping the troops..No one mentions the billions spent on Crusader, Comanche, the flying dorito. That doesn't include the billions spent on stuff we'll never use or which ended in abject failure in the black world.

The article is preachy, but the fact is we are spending more and getting less. More responsibility needs to be paid to the needs of our forces while balancing the expectaions of taxpayers, that's all.

Posted by: Jmuthaf'nT at February 7, 2008 12:06 PM


Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just re-open A-10 plants? Tried and true platform able to get in close.

As for advanced fighters..You can spend all that money, but if you have a pilot who flys 3 hours on the weekend, they won't be ready for a major conflict.

Talk about helping the troops..No one mentions the billions spent on Crusader, Comanche, the flying dorito. That doesn't include the billions spent on stuff we'll never use or which ended in abject failure in the black world.

The article is preachy, but the fact is we are spending more and getting less. More responsibility needs to be paid to the needs of our forces while balancing the expectaions of taxpayers, that's all.

Posted by: Jmuthf'nT at February 7, 2008 12:05 PM


The first part of the argument, what the ancients would call the exordium, is essentially undermined by two points immediately.

We spend more money than the entire rest of the world. Sure. We spend more much money than our allies do in any theatre, especially Africa, the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean Rims. Wherever there is conflict, we do all the heavy lifting (literally) and all the heavy combat.

That inevitable combination of distance overseas plus worldwide commitments means that to participate in any overseas theatre we would have to spend more than any two local combatants. Nation A fights Nation B. Neither Nation A or B need to spend money on a blue-water navy, a worldwide sat constellation, a multibillion dollar air fleet, etc. We do, just to put a division in place in a timely manner. As no other power can really project force far outside their borders (including China and Russia), we’d have that ‘advantage’ in spending over any other power, including all of them together.

So the first part is undermined by what that money buys: satellites, ships, aircraft, overseas bases, etc, etc, which are essential to the mission of projecting power overseas, versus what they buy on the enemy’s side.

Second, we cannot ignore the effect of casualties on our war-fighting capacity, and so we spend more money on top-of-the-line gear. I am under no delusions that it is all “THE BEST”. It isn’t. But our ships, our planes, our tanks, our IFVs, our APCs, our arty, our infantry weapons, our body armor, our supply trains, our sats, our nuclear triad, our subs are all in the top rank, regardless of position. And we have a lot of all of them.

Look at the threats we have to face: Nuclear deterrent against Russia; Regional war against North Korea; regional war against China over Taiwan; regional war in Central Asia; war in the middle east; counter-terror ops in the Horn of Africa; and commitments to allies from South America to East Timor (including backing Australia against Indonesia).

These operations require hundreds of thousands of assets from everything to ELINT to GI Joe, from carrier battle groups to hand-launched Ravens.

Criticizing one platform, such as the F-22, for not being perfectly designed to fight against an insurgency, is damn foolish. The exact same criticism can be made against aircraft carriers, against sat networks, against whole spy agencies, against destroyers, and as we’ve just seen, going back several articles, some people will even criticize or impugn air power as a whole as being counterproductive to COIN ops.

But they are not designed with COIN operations in mind, quite rightly so. I don’t want our Top Gun academies to revert to classes on splashing crop dusters. I don’t want our battle groups to focus on anti-speed boat formations. We have real-world threats that they need to face down.

After that, after setting the stage, by preparing the grand porches of deception that we should take as valid the point that there is something wrong with our defense expenditures being much higher than the rest of the world (and so by implication, perhaps, we should be better off, if not more secure, if our expenditures were at parity with our nearest competitor), the rest of the argument is hammering the F-22 round peg into the square hole of an ideal CAS platform during COIN.

And still, I hear behind that door the scratching that critics will lunge through and insist that CAS itself must be scrapped, as it ‘creates terrorism.’ For instance, this: “A major part of those "collateral" civilian casualties come from aircraft flying too fast and too high to positively identify exactly what they are guiding their munitions to.”

There is a scent here of the grand systemizers that Nietzche despised; the people who would ‘rationalize’ the world. Trendy verbiage such as “stakeholder”, a staple of NGOs and those who would contrive some mystical reason to limit corporations, merely reinforce that impression. But there is a real world mission for the F-22, despite the hand-wringing of the authors, just as there is for many of the programs they mentioned: the EFV, the Osprey (which they didn’t), the DDX, etc.

I happen to agree on a few points, but overall, I would distrust the wisdom of their recommendations, especially the absurd criticism of their chosen whipping-boy, the F-22, against the standards of COIN ops.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at February 7, 2008 12:02 PM


Gee 25 paragraphs on the value of the F-22 and notone mention of modern aid defenses. Where I come from such an oversight is the very definition of incompetence. If Winslow, Pierre, and James want to put thier money their mouth is, I suggest they jump intotheir beloved F-16's and try to put a couple of JDAM's on DMPI's defended by some SA-10, SA-15, and SA-20 sites. A simple look at the maps of potential advisaries will show where those sites are located at. And yes fighter mafia guys we all know the issues with airpower and insurgents, but only a truely incompetence leadership ignores future threats.

Posted by: NTV at February 7, 2008 11:44 AM


I greatly respect these gentlemen but I believe they ignore many things.

1. They seem to be PO'd that the F-22 was even developed. As with the V-22, that decision has been made.
2. Just because you are not presently at war does not mean you should not develop a replacement for existing A/C. (See A-10, British nimrod, F-15A thru D). We won't always be addressing squad & company sized jihadists (I hope).
3. The development costs have already been paid and cannot be recalled so get over it. The "flyaway costs" are a real number. And the same for the V-22. It's time to suck it up and make things work for the troops using these systems.

While I sympathize with their point of view they would be better engaged fighting for a really good substitute for the A-10 (the F-35 isn't a CAS aircraft). Or let the Army have A-10 and the mission.

Posted by: tipover at February 7, 2008 11:44 AM


You know, if you'd put Pierre Sprey's name on the article at the beginning, I could have saved myself a lot of time and just not read the thing. WASTE OF TIME. This is one of the worst written pieces I've ever seen on this site. It's merely a bitch session on the F-22. Sprey is a spurned lover who just can't get over it.

Posted by: Brian at February 7, 2008 11:17 AM


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