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Hey Christian,

It's a been a while and a long time coming, but we just hit a mile stone with our flexible rifle armor.

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Posted by: Allan D. Bain at October 10, 2008 01:41 AM

Um, I'd have to actually put on one of those vests, but from watching that guy throw on that new vest it looked a hell of a lot easier than putting on my old IBA. Your arms always got stuck in the damn thing, especially when they made you wear the FLICk with it. Why you'd wear that flick at all makes no sense to me since an IBA has MOLLE straps on it, but thats the Army. And why would it be heavier? Is it heavier or are people just talking out of there asses? LOL, an IBA with side daps, shoulder protectors, throat protector and the sapi plates, PLUS your basic load ammo and whatever else you had, NODs...etc. etc. you were pretty weighed down to begin with. I brought my full battle rattle home, IBA and Mich...minus my M4 of course, lol, and my friends and family where all like, holy shyt thats heavy. Thats what civilians say, but that was my gear and what else are you going to wear when you're waltzing down some street in Iraq waiting for some dink to set off an IED or take a pot shot at you? I felt safe at least, if not completely fricking miserable. I want them to come out with some body armor that doesn't over heat you. I loved my IBA in the winter, and I thought I was going to die in the summer wearing it.

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Posted by: aoc gold at May 18, 2008 01:51 AM

Kevlar for the same weight, is several times stronger than steel. Kevlar is soft armor and work differently than hard armor. Kevlar catches the round, and is really ineffective against rifle rounds. Rifle rounds are defeated by hard ceramics, but the problems with hard materials is that they are britle. The premise is to defeat rifle rounds with hard materials and control the cracking of the brittle ceramics when they are impacted.

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Posted by: wowpowerleveling at April 15, 2008 02:56 AM

I just talked to my son who is Corpsman with marines. Says his MYV weighs 65 lbs with plates. He can hardly move in it. Marines says it restricts their movements. Pain to put on etc.

Posted by: Mike at April 13, 2008 05:40 PM

I've always been puzzled at the fact that we use so much armor plating on our vehicles when we could be using more kevlar 15 layers if necessary for our vehicles. Isn't Kevlar 5 times stronger than steel?

Posted by: J R at March 8, 2008 09:40 AM

Plus Mike,
What would you rather be on; an ATV or the Growler? The thing fell over going around a turtle.
Not exacly an off-road superstar....

Posted by: Dennis at March 3, 2008 11:56 AM

Thanks for being open minded Mike:)
It is hard for me to argue since I am not a solder, just a guy who studies technology.
However, I would like to say that when someone is firing at you, you would get off of the ATV. At least some guys would, others would stay on and ride around to the backside of whoever is shooting at you, encircling them in a hurry.
Helicopters are very vulnerable. The farther away from the action they drop you the better.
Also Helicopters alert everyone that you are coming, losing the element of surprise. (See Mogadishu)
With ATV's you could patrol an area without roads or get to a target with a little more surprise, from a helicopter/Osprey/truck.
This is not new thinking. In WW2 lots of units used Jeeps to patrol open areas and to be exactly where the enemy did not want you to be, when they least expected it.
It only worked for open areas for Jeeps, whereas an ATV is much more flexible. (Horses and Donkeys are the ultimate flexible-see Jeb Stuart-. But they cannot go twenty MPH for two hours, and tend to freak out when shot.)
I am not saying this concept would be good for convoy duty.
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@dennis
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Posted by: Mike at March 2, 2008 05:44 PM

If we put the common solder on a mid-sized ATV, they could wear as much armor as they want and have great mobility.
Obviously they would have to stay off the main roads, to avoid the IED's. But for a bunch of guys on mid-sized ATV's this is not a problem.
These vehicles would also allow for ease of helicopter/Osprey/Parachute/truck transport.
Hell, it is a better idea than the "Growler".
Leave it to the military though. As soon as they start buying ATV's they design them to be HEAVIER than a standard ATV.
Since when is Heavy "high performance"? The reviews I have read suggest that the extra weight make them rollover-ready. How much crap does one ATV have to carry for a solder? The regular ATV's can carry 75 pounds in the front and 150 pounds on the back. These specs are for a mid sixed ATV, not one of the real big ones.
Unfortunately, it seems more and more the Top level officers have no idea what good technology is. Either they are ignorant, or being lied to by people who are lining up their retirement job.....or both.
It reminds me that Marine General Krulac went out with "his Marines" for a training expedition . After dealing with the crap equipment and waking up feeling like shit from the sleeping materials, he decided that things were going to change.
Where is that type of leadership now?
I have heard it referred to as "Management by walking around".

Posted by: Dennis at March 2, 2008 03:23 PM

"Over 80% of marine deaths are attributed to shoulder wounds.Enemy snipers are being trained to target these areas. " - MAX ANDERSON
The reason why they are getting hit in the shoulders is because they are mostly lying in a prone position when firing and being fired at.
also if you think about that and think about the way the scales of the DS armour are layered you realise they are up side down.
why this armour doesnt have protection for the shoulder is anyones guess.

Posted by: mat at March 2, 2008 11:31 AM

Hm, kinda funny. Before that article the Army got bashed because they were "too slow" for fielding IOTV, while the Marines already fielded MTV, thus it was 5 pounds heavier...
But honestly the MTV is not that bad.

Posted by: Dave at March 2, 2008 04:30 AM

This kinda thing drives me batsh!t. How is it possible that the marines didn't do a field trial of, say, 300 units before ordering 84,000 of them?!

And no one will lose their job or be demoted because, hey, who cares? There's always more tax dollars we can fleece from the public, it's a bottomless pit.

Posted by: John at March 1, 2008 12:07 PM

I called Pinnacle and asked the customer service/sales rep how much a large full torso wrap level IV, I did say out of curiosity because I didn't lie and say I was buying for a military purpose, and weight they quoted me wasn't 45 lbs. I wish someone who can buy level IV armor would ask and see if they are false advertising or not. But how crappy you can't put on your own armor? and how crappy that marines don't like it. How hard is it to ask some troops?

Posted by: txzen at February 29, 2008 08:44 PM

IOTV ~ 27lb
MTV ~ 31lb
DS ~ 45lb

Posted by: Mike at February 29, 2008 07:26 PM

I can imagine how hard that thing would be to put on over your head when it has 50 more pounds of gear strapped to it, like ammo and whatnot. Weight is the obvious problem, and this weighs around 30lbs while the Dragon skin weighs around 45 to 50lbs. So if this is the major problem, how can anyone argue that the military needs the Dragon skin? Crazy.

Posted by: Mike at February 29, 2008 06:53 PM

Aaggh! The world is at an end. I agree with freefallingbomb. At some point, there will be a failure of surveillance and something will slip through.

I would be all for spending lots of extra money on body armor if it meant we'd have significantly better protection. However, I think that without some major advance, we're at the point where trade-offs are the only thing we can do. It's the same with rifles. We can make a rifle shoot farther, but that increases barrel length and makes it unweildy at closer ranges. We can make them hit harder, but that means bigger bullets and fewer rounds. We can make body armor that protects more, but that means its heavier and more bulky.

There's going to have to be some sort of advance made, some new material developed, before we can really move on to a set of armor that is measurably superior to what we have today.

Posted by: Brian at February 29, 2008 02:02 PM

I didn't mean it that way. I just think they weigh the costs a bit too much. No armor is going to protect you from everything, but, you can better the odds.My point was more along the lines of, even if an armor system cost a lot more than the current ones, if the protection was better it would actually save limb, lives and money in the long run.

Posted by: steve at February 29, 2008 01:17 PM

The poster "Campbell" wrote: "how much for a little ol cell phone? what would it cost to put a fricken cell phone camera up on a pole, on every damn corner of any town? no need for body armor at all, if you can SEE whats' going down, and avoid fire in the first place."

The principle is sound, maybe it needs a bit of adaptation to reality (by choosing any better adapted surveillance technologies for that), but my question to you is: You ALREADY HAVE such a situation in Police State "Great Britain", prison camp London, where millions of C.C.T.V, cameras watch over EVERY SINGLE street corner for 24 / 7 / 365,25, yet they were still unable to guarantee public safety and to predict and thwart the 7 / 7 / 2005 bus and subway bombings. Why? Because - and that's the Achilles heel of your system - it is humanely impossible to observe all those millions of monitors in REAL TIME !

As Napoléon already observed, when musing about public safety and crowd control: "It is impossible to put a soldier right next to every civilian."

Posted by: freefallingbomb at February 29, 2008 01:17 PM

Steve,

Really, despite what you might think, materials science is only so advanced. Making better armor isn't simply a matter of throwing money at the problem and having it suddenly appear.

Posted by: Brian at February 29, 2008 01:10 PM

Campbell: Your theory is beyond stupid. Other than getting great video footage of being shot, you're idea has few merits. How the @#$% do you think a camera is better than armor?
Granted, extra surveilance would be nice, but, to say it would be better than providing armor is about the dumbest thing I have read here(hell, I've written some doozies). What happens when the enemy figures out the cameras(I don't know, maybe looking up and seeing that thing that looks like a camera) and disables it?
My two cents on topic even: I wish we could convince the beancounters that even if you dump thousands upon thousands into armor protection, it would pay for itself by the reduction in deaths and injuries. I think I'm seeing two many this or that choices being made in armor design. Why can't Dragonskin type armor be combined with plate and maybe that newer flexible design? Why can't we design a better modular system that can readily be changed from something you'd wear hanging out of a vehicle turret or going on a patrol? That MTV design looks really unwieldly.

Posted by: steve at February 29, 2008 11:44 AM

I wonder if light Inf units who do a lot of street patrols prefer this over the Interceptor. I know it is 3lbs heaver, but it distributes the weight better.

Posted by: Mike at February 29, 2008 11:44 AM

Just give it to guys riding shotgun on Hummers etc.

At least that way we wont lose the money spent.

Posted by: Vstress at February 29, 2008 11:33 AM

(sublety not a strong suit around here) okay, try this....you're going to enter a ring for a fistfight......you can have all the body armor you want, but you gotta be blindfolded if you choose it.

any takers?

in this day, when we have the tech available to monitor every street corner in america to see if someone is paying a toll, running a light......we can do so somewhere else. anything less than doing so....is stupid. Mucho macho perhaps....but stupid for certain.

Posted by: campbell at February 29, 2008 10:53 AM

Hey! Cuirassiers!

At this point, we might as well put them in Maximillian Full Plate.

Posted by: Grandjester at February 29, 2008 10:26 AM

Damn it marines!!! This "armor" is a matter of survival,the survival of craven politicians who don't give a serious damn about our troops or marines,but want to pretend they do to their constituents.There will be morale!!!! There will be no more complaints about the quite beneficent & magnanimous gifts of [obviously total shit] body armor given to you by your [un]caring Neo-Con "Artist",(might as well say it) Crypto-Jewish masters,who rank up there with the likes of Ehud Olmert in terms of "caring & compassion" for the common people(just ask Sderot about the compassion & caring of Olmert).Thumbs up for our government being just as caring,& for "brilliant military minds" like Richard Pearle,Bill Kristol,Charles Krauthammer,& Paul Wolfowitz,who got us into the mess we are in,in Iraq today.
Now somebody explain to me why I'm wrong & completely off base,because there is difinateely NO DEFENSE of Pearle,Kristol,Krauthammer,&/or Wolfowitz(who as a reward for his misadventures in Iraq,was made "Head Money Changer" for the IMF).So no,there's absolutely NO LOVE for those scum in my heart.

Posted by: Roy Smith at February 29, 2008 08:29 AM

Max,

I agree with you 100 percent. I used an armor system designed by Blackhawk for my recent embed in Iraq -- with, by the way, ultralight Level III plates designed by Protective Products. I'll have a full review to come, but I'll say this: the Army IOTV is the best allround vest I've seen in the zone...one that balances protection, weight, fit and feel. I wish I had gotten one of those instead (but I'm not sure I could've because so many are on order for the Army)...

Posted by: Christian Lowe at February 29, 2008 08:15 AM

No doubt as mentioned the body armor has no covering of the shoulders areas. The neck yes. But I have a solution for the upper part of the neck, a fold down liquid armor, that when in a non firing zone, could be rolled up to ventilate the neck area, but in a hot zone will give extra ballistic support to the neck. Also a newer shoulder insert that velcroes to the body flack vest. Over 80% of marine deaths are attributed to shoulder wounds. Enemy snipers are being trained to target these areas.
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-O1ahRPI8er4gvVWAGF6W_kZB?p=325
As for E-bay issues, ther is more data later.

Posted by: Max Anderson at February 29, 2008 03:27 AM

I was with the first battalion in the Corps to adopt these vests - we had to go to classes to learn how to assemble them and wear them (not kidding). The company rep for the armor told us that these things were based on the buddy system, he didn't seem to see whats wrong with the fact that its impossible to don by yourself, its slow to put on, and restricts your mobility. I sure am glad my contract ended before I had to wear that stupid thing in combat.

Posted by: Sterling at February 29, 2008 12:33 AM

Well.. I still think the MTV is better then the brits osprey armor. I do not understand though why the Marines did not do something like the army did, where they cut weight and added protection, instead of adding both. My humble opinion is that the Marines should have just adopted the IOTV like the Army, got it in "fox brown" color, (Good choice btw on the Marines... it goes good with Desert and woodlands MARPAT), and renamed it the MOTV or MTV.. whatever.

Posted by: Mike at February 28, 2008 10:30 PM

campbell, your stupid, stupid, stupid.

Posted by: Mike at February 28, 2008 10:25 PM

I heard from a very reliable source that they don't like the MTV armor because it doesn't play videos anymore, just crappy reality tv shows.

Posted by: Brian at February 28, 2008 09:38 PM

campbell,......so your solution is to put camera phones to poles....thank god your not in charge of anything.

as for the topic, in the pic...that thing looks way to big and combersome. I dont know why they think they need to bid it out, why dont they do some research from a large number of cops and swat guys, and eventually you can narrow it down to pick the best one.

Posted by: murc at February 28, 2008 08:36 PM

this stuff really annoys me. what does all this gear cost? how much for a little ol cell phone? what would it cost to put a fricken cell phone camera up on a pole, on every damn corner of any town? no need for body armor at all, if you can SEE whats' going down, and avoid fire in the first place.

stupid, stupid, stupid

Posted by: campbell at February 28, 2008 07:17 PM

When I see this, I wonder why I even bother driving myself insane trying to figure out how to make armor? really? i hold 3 patents on armor, and none of them are like this PB/AH/BAE hunk of junk... Im not surprised.
I hold Marines in very high esteem (as well as others in the Mil.) I just gotta smile when the Cmndt. of the USMC starts yellin' < yikes!
Well, I don't quit because i am not working for a dod contract, im working for the guys who gotta wear armor. one day.......... good one Christian.
DW

Posted by: David Woroner at February 28, 2008 06:26 PM

if your sayin its fine cause he wore it?....
well somethin that weights 30pounds is fine for sittin in a vehicle all day but when your on patrol and expect to be able to take cover fast enough....also add the other equipment. looks like we find another lighter armor,think about gene enginering the troops, or we must have mecha!!!

no seriously good job listening to the troops for a change though Fox is better than CNN and other MSM on that ...

and whats this i hear about obama canceling the missile defense program, cutting FCS, and his retarded nuke free world thing? plus he says he wants to end fissionable materials....doesnt that also include the fuel for nuke reactors? Say the vid on Black 5 site? why is he even a candidate if he wants to neuter the US....then whos gonna do the UN's dirty work?

Posted by: James at February 28, 2008 06:00 PM

You think prince Harry was wearing one of those vests during his stay in Afcan? See the film of him behind a 50 cal. blasting away? Ma duce and the little prince. A twenty somthing young man and a 80 year old weapon, looks to me they both can kick Ass.

Posted by: david at February 28, 2008 04:50 PM