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Posted by: jana at April 10, 2008 09:22 AM

The V-22 has also performed aeroscout missions.

Has anyone bothered to talk to the guys in
VMM-263 other than Christian?
Has anyone bothered to read anything
at The Thunder Chickens website?

Might be good to wait til they get home and write up their after action reports before speculating.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Posted by: Rich at April 3, 2008 02:04 AM

I've seen a lot of interesting comments. I think the $62 mil VIP taxi is being taken out of context, while it is still hyperbolic there is some truth to the comment. There have been past reports of how the V-22's that have been used in Iraq have been used mostly for a while for trash hauling, resupply, and it is a favorite of various senior officers when it comes to traveling to more remote bases. Iraq is big, it can land at bases w/o airstrips and its faster than a helicopter. Making it a natural choice for VIPs who want to squeeze in visits into their schedules.

Someone else mentioned that it's slow on landing and approach, which seems to be true by some accounts. However the mini-gun that is in the works to be mounted where the hell holes are now seem to help cover itself for landing in addition to the gunner on the ramp.

AFSOC plans has put various countermeasures on their V-22's per SOF's higher requirements.

It behooves the USMC to do the same, but funding it is easier said than done. The development costs are very high because of decades of budget cuts, then adjustments, and requirements being added. From what I understand the USMC's original requirements were very basic, compared to what the Air Force wanted and reconciling the differences set project back for years.

It's going to change a lot of things for the better, it does has it's own limitations. As mentioned the footprint is too big for certain missions. But it's not meant to do all things. It's terrible for maritime rescue, but will probably do well at high mountain insertions/extractions, etc. The chinook has done better in Afghanistan at very high altitudes compared to the MH-53 and H-60 family.

At the end of the day, the Air Force will have their MH-53 fleet fully deactivated by the end of next year if I remember right. Production has been very slow and will not meet this need at it's current rate. The unit cost needs to come down and the pace needs to be picked up.

S10 mil off per frame isn't a bad first step, but there's a lot to be done.

Posted by: DCPhoto at April 1, 2008 04:23 PM

The Osprey can stay aloft - or under power, at least - with a single engine.

The auto-rotational ability is a perk - it's saved the life of two of my friends, plus their crews, in at least two occasions - but it is not exactly a major flaw either.

Helicopters have to fly low to the ground and are at great risk of bird and - most dangerous - wire strikes. Autorotation helps, but I know people that have survived two crashes (one a CH-46 in 1998, another a H-53 some years later, different folk) and others that didn't survive. In those cases, autorotation wouldn't have helped them at all.

So it's a balance: the general danger of rotary wing flight versus the safety of fixed wing regimens. I rather consider the Osprey ahead of the safety game on that general score.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at April 1, 2008 03:55 PM

One other thing: Yes, the lack of autorotational capability would be a definate drawback (are you certain that it does not indeed have the ability?); however, having said that, Turbine engine technology has progressed amazingly in recent years. It is pretty rare that a turbine engine fails (they do...that is for sure, but not that often anymore). Besides, the Osprey must certainly have some sort of combining gear so that both engines would actually have to fail to bring it down hard. Of course, bad fuel would do that, but I know they're being really careful with that. The long and short of it is, this is a bold step in aviation. I'm really excited about it and I'm glad they didn't pull the plug on the program...I wonder when they will pull off the rotors and put in a couple of turbo-fans (yes, for sure, the auto capability would be gone).

Posted by: Done and Dusted at April 1, 2008 03:29 PM

OK, to the guy who thinks that "UH"-60's are not used to tranport VIP's: I have flown 2 Secretaries of Defense, most of the Secretaries of the Army (and undersecretaries) over the past 10 years, and several celebrity guests of the DoD, in a plain old UH-60. Hell, I even did it back in the plain old UH-1's, so plase disabuse yourself of the notion that it is exclusive to the VH's. Second...for goodness' sake people, this is all new technology. Yes it has growing pains, which airframe hasn't; and in most cases, they were just variations on an old theme...the V-22 is a whole new ball-game. There is no question that the Osprey has already yielded gains that will benefit future designs of rotorcraft; not to mention pushing the field of what is possible with engineering as applicable to other technologies. I wonder, if the Wright Brothers or Uncle Igor had listened to the bulk of the pundits, where we would be today.

Posted by: Done and Dusted at April 1, 2008 03:17 PM

I thought I read in a resent story that the V-22 had engine problems and were to be re-engined. Was this resolved at the contractor's expence? With a major defect as this, one would hope it is fixed before any new contracts are placed on the table. Also, will this new "lot" of V-22's have the new mini-gun mounted on it?

Posted by: F-22 Flight Tester at April 1, 2008 08:27 AM

UH-60 blackhawks are not used to transport VIPs. VH-60 models are specialized VIP aircraft. The V in V-22 does not designate VIP transport; there is only one model.

When all is said and done, the lack of autorotation seems like a bad idea to this heli engineer. Hovering OGE, vulnerable, tends to make me think there would not be time nor altitude to convert to airplane mode and gain sufficient lift to prevent a disaster should debilitating damage be sustained.

Posted by: C. Foskey at April 1, 2008 08:14 AM

It isnt the total force transformer people want it to be. It's just a great piece of kit that opens up new options. If you could just bend your head around that you'll see that its a great machine. Also: you shouldn't try to argument your own agenda (money/jobs etc) by talking down the capabilities.

Posted by: Macaca at April 1, 2008 05:42 AM

"while the ARG is safe,..."

Tired.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at March 31, 2008 09:48 PM

It's not just for record amphib assaults into Central Wherever. With helicopters, you really have to hold the ship no more than 100 miles off the coast, which puts the naval ships in range of missile batteries, air craft, and, especially, submarines; which could conceivably hide near port in mined-in pens. If you can deploy twice as fast and twice as far, you've given the fleet much more room to maneuver and so those threats decrease.

That's not to say the USMC is going to abandon helos. They are vital, still. But with the Osprey you can quickly deploy troops while the ARG OVER the range of many SAM systems, land them in the enemy rear where they can play CHester Chester Child Molester with his C3 networks, supply, whatever. And keep them resupplied.

It's a game changer.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at March 31, 2008 09:47 PM

thanks "Camp" for the info, I'll be sure to watch.

I like the V-22, and think its a step in the right direction.

While I wouldn't call it "the workhorse" for the Marines, I do think its a good thing that its there. It needs to get battlefield tested, and its a good thing their easing it into the fight.

I'm anxious to see how it looks * performs after it gets it long awaited gun.

Posted by: murc at March 31, 2008 09:20 PM

With attention currently focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan I understand why the brass are attached to the concept of not having to stage in or drive through other countries. The Marine Corps set a record of a 600 mile "amphibious assault" in Afghanistan but I think that billions of dollars spent for every service to switch to tilt rotor may be a bit over zealous.

Getting past the curret Iraqi and Afghan wars, the majority of people live closer to the coasts of all continents. It it more probable that in future conflicts a sea port will be taken as will available airstrips closer to civil infrastructure.

The Army is the big ground contingent and I believe should stick to more efficient heavy lift fixed wing aircraft and merchant marine assets.

Smaller, more effective specialized units like the Marine Corps, Special Forces, SeALs, and ParaRescue (PJ's) are already slated to receive V-22's for their light and medium waged battles.

Posted by: G at March 31, 2008 06:56 PM

I talked to some Marines out of New River and they gave me some serious insight to the aircraft and some of its former shortcomings. While it may be faster than helicopters heading in for assault, watching it come in for a landing until it touches down leaves it vulnerable and draws some serious attention.....not to mention, the things is huge! My Marine Corps has gotten the short end of the stick (and gotten used to it) when it comes to the latest and greatest, so I guess my Marines are going to do what they have always done...make it work! I dont trust it, but if the pilots who fly it and the crews who service it speak highly of it, then who am I to judge? Lets just see what happens when the belly mounted gun puts some of the enemy on their backs and the plane sustains some major hits...then we can render verdict.

Posted by: Maurice at March 31, 2008 06:38 PM

I ran into this earlier...

"Set the TiVo: V-22 documentary scheduled"
http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_talk/2008/03/set-the-tivo-v.html

"Public affairs staff at Bell Helicopter informs us that the Military Channel will feature a one-hour documentary program on the history and development of the V-22 Osprey on Monday, April 7.
The show airs at 10 pm EDT, 9 p.m Central. Bell says the program covers the Osprey from its inception following the failed Desert One hostage rescue attempt to current operations with Marine squadron VMM-263 in Al Asad, Iraq."

Posted by: Camp at March 31, 2008 04:58 PM

Nessuno,

With only TEN in Country (Iraq), I find your "workhorse of the Marine Corps" line to be a bit of a stretch, and those of us "paying attention" know that one ALWAYS capitalizes "Marine Corps".

No Sir, you are the one who left his brains at the door.

Posted by: Grandjester at March 31, 2008 03:02 PM

These things are going to replace helicopters before to long, for the standard battlefield taxi. Awesome platform.

Posted by: 22lr at March 31, 2008 02:40 PM

VIP Taxi? Have you people not been paying attention? The thing is the workhorse of the marine corps. Everyone wants to use it for everything they can.

I guess when Blackhawks are used to transport VIPs, you people use that as proof that the helicopter is useless for everything else, right?

Right?

It's ok to be skeptical, but you people have left your brains at the door.

Posted by: Nessuno at March 31, 2008 02:18 PM

Remember way back when it was going to be an assault transport? Too fragile for combat, it's turned into an expensive toy for those who get a chance to try it.
.
I hope US taxpayers think their $15bn in R&D were well spent!

Posted by: Wembley at March 31, 2008 12:52 PM

"reaching ambitions 10 years late and grossly overbudget defines failure."

Both of which are nonsequiturs to mission accomplishment.

Posted by: Vercingetorix at March 31, 2008 12:49 PM

McCain has paid his dues... but any "VIP" that hasn't served should drop to the deck and knock out some push-ups, before & after the ride. :-P

Are the Joint Heavy Lift (JHL) and Advanced Joint Air Combat System (AJACS) projects still ongoing, with a demonstrator date of 2015?

"Aiming for first flights by 2015, the AATD hopes to build competitive "near full-scale" X-plane demonstrators - "three-quarters scale or bigger, and within the capability of existing engines", he says, although they could be converted from available turbofans."

"Heavy duty: US Army backs tiltrotor as future battlefield airlifter"
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/14/220796/heavy-duty-us-army-backs-tiltrotor-as-future-battlefield.html

"Bell Boeing Quad TiltRotor"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_Quad_TiltRotor

Posted by: Camp at March 31, 2008 12:01 PM

How can they sign a deal when the engines have proven inadequate? Certainly we want the best, but not quite reaching ambitions 10 years late and grossly overbudget defines failure.

Posted by: lance d. logue at March 31, 2008 11:05 AM

How can they sign a deal when the engines have proven inadequate? Certainly we want the best, but not quite reaching ambitions 10 years late and grossly overbudget defines failure.

Posted by: lance d. logue at March 31, 2008 11:03 AM

At 62 Million per, shouldn't it be more than a VIP Taxi?

Posted by: Grandjester at March 31, 2008 08:34 AM