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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

An Objective View of Tankers?

kc45.jpg

Is it un-American to want the U.S. Air Force to purchase the primarily European-built EADS Airbus A330 aircraft for its next-generation tanker aircraft? Speaker of the House Ms Nancy Pelosi and several members of Congress, Republicans as well as Democrats, believe that to procure a foreign aircraft is reprehensible.

The A330MRTT was selected in a second competition for the next-generation tanker -- to be designated KC-45 -- winning out against the Boeing KC-767. There was great irony when the Air Force announced selection of the A330MRTT in late February 2008. Boeing had been awarded a contract for its KC-767AT to serve as the next-generation tanker in a 2002 lease-buy agreement. That deal was to provide 100 tankers at a cost of more than $20 billion.

But several members of Congress as well as Department of Defense officials and analysts questioned that deal. It unraveled with the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition -- who took a job with Boeing shortly after the contract award -- going to jail and several Boeing officials stepping down. 

A new competition for the tanker contract was held with a rigorous and transparent process. The A330MRTT was selected on the basis of cost and, in most selection categories, superior performance. The A330MRTT has operated as a tanker and has been selected for that role by Great Britain (14 aircraft), Australia (5), the United Arab Emirates (3), and Saudi Arabia (3).

(While the KC-767AT has not yet operated as a tanker, four have been ordered by Italy and Japan has ordered four convertible freighter variants.)

Boeing has protested the tanker award and several members of Congress have declared that the foreign buy (1) would cost American jobs,(2) was possible only because of European governments subsidizing the aircraft’s development, and (3) secret American technology would be lost. These issues dominate the debate as this blog is written.

Yes, American jobs will be lost. Boeing would have to work harder to sell more aircraft to compensate for the loss of tanker aircraft. Airbus, owned by EADS, and its American partner -- Northrop Grumman -- will assemble the aircraft in Mobile, Alabama, creating new jobs in what the firm calls "a new aerospace manufacturing corridor in the southeastern United States." This could strengthen the overall U.S. aerospace base.

The argument that European nations, especially France, help pay for the lower-cost A330 is great. An aircraft that costs less for the same (or superior) performance is good for American taxpayers. We have previously procured foreign-developed and even foreign-built aircraft in the past-the British AV-8 Harrier, the French HU-25 Guardian and HH-65 Dolphin, and the Italian MH-68 Stingray; the U.S. services have also bought foreign-developed missiles, fire control systems, uniforms, and even ships. At the same time, foreign nations -- often under "buy-back" agreements -- use American-built aircraft, missiles, torpedoes, communications gear, and more. Indeed, the French Air Force flies Boeing-built KC-135 tankers as does Turkey and Singapore.

It is difficult to understand what "secret" American technology would be lost if the U.S. Air Force uses foreign-built tankers. Today the U.S. Air Force refuels foreign tactical aircraft, and the U.S. military aircraft regularly refuel from foreign tankers. And, the various services have regular personnel exchanges and share technical data on their tankers.

The KC-45 tanker buy will see the procurement of up to 179 aircraft for approximately $35 billion.

The Air Force selection used a "best value" determination to select a winner on the basis of mission capability, proposal risk, past performance, cost/price, and an integrated fleet air refueling assessment. The Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force, General Duncan J. McNabb, has said, "The tanker is the number one procurement priority for us right now."

The new aircraft is needed. The competition was fair and transparent. For several reasons, the A330MRTT was the right selection. Time to move on.

-- Norman Polmar

Comments

> It was an article written by Jed Babbin after a CAPITAL HILL
> meeting he attended. There is ZERO indication that the meeting
> was with Boeing OR that the information that came out of the
> meeting was sourced from Boeing

let us review the 'discussion' so far

you: here's info from someone OTHER THAN BOEING
me: you can't say that since you don't know who it was from
you: there's no proof it was Boeing
me: i didn't say it was Boeing, i said you can't say it was someone other than Boeing
you: there's no proof it was Boeing
me: i realize that. there is also no proof it wasn't Boeing
you: there's no proof it was Boeing
me: . . .

> The KC-30 DOES NOT meet or exceed all requirements by more than the KC-767AT!

that's funny, the AF found otherwise

> You DO NOT understand computer simulation programs!
> They DO NOT give the same result every time.

if you have found a non-deterministic program, go claim your Nobel prize

granted very small, seemingly insignificant differences can result in large differences in output

but if all the inputs are exactly the same, the program MUST return the same result

anything else would violate all basic tentants of computer science

Posted by: irtusk at April 22, 2008 10:06 PM


irtusk,

It was an article written by Jed Babbin after a CAPITAL HILL meeting he attended. There is ZERO indication that the meeting was with Boeing OR that the information that came out of the meeting was sourced from Boeing (aside from specific points where Mr. Babbin SPECIFICALLY cited Boeing as the source - he also SPECIFICALLY cited NG/EADS as the source on specific points).

The KC-30 DOES NOT meet or exceed all requirements by more than the KC-767AT! It has greater fuel & cargo capacity BUT in REAL WORLD situations it does not necessarily have greater capability.

You DO NOT understand computer simulation programs! They DO NOT give the same result every time. We are not talking about some simple logic circuit but a VERY complex (yet not complex enough - aka not enough variabls to accurately represent reality) computer model.

Posted by: pfcem at April 22, 2008 03:05 PM


> I never said you said must be Boeing

ok, i took a second look at what you were saying, and . . .

i'm not really sure wtf you are saying

any possible interpretation i can come up with is so ludicrously wrong i can't imagine that even you would say it

Posted by: irtusk at April 21, 2008 05:37 PM


> YOU are the one who claims that Mr. Babbin attended a meeting with Boeing

STOP LYING ABOUT WHAT I SAID

i said that you can't claim it was a source other than Boeing

you don't know who the source was, hence that that is an invalid/DISHONEST claim to make

> I never said you said must be Boeing

you capability to deny the obvious is truly astounding

let me refresh your memory (for about the 6th time this thread)

> Here is a link to someone OTHER THAN Boeing

i see no hedging, just a very simple clear claim that it was NOT Boeing

and once again, that is a claim you are not in a position to make

> If the meeting was with Boeing Mr. Babbin would have likely said it was.

that's some good stuff you're on

> Not indicating who the meeting was with in his article IS NOT the same a refusing to..

it's not like he 'overlooked' or 'forgot' to mention who the meeting was with

it was a very deliberate obfuscation, which means . . . drumroll please . . . he REFUSED to identify who sponsored the meeting

> The NG/EADS CMARPS model alterations to reality ARE unrealistic. It is unfortunate that you are so
> ignorant as to not realize/understand that.

it's unfortunate you can't offer any evidence besides your word (which keeps becoming less and less credible).

> The point is that the KC-767AT meets or exceeds ALL requirements

no, the point is that the KC-30 meets or exceeds them by even more

> I see you don't undersatd computer simulation programs either. ;)

i understand that if you run a computer program with the exact same input you will get the exact same output every single time (excepting some strike by a cosmic ray)

if you say multiple runs didn't generate the same result, that is only because the inputs weren't exactly the same

computers are deterministic

if you know the inputs you know the outputs

even a random number generator is deterministic

hence why they're called PSEUDO random number generators

if you could actually create a non-deterministic program you would win a nobel prize

Posted by: irtusk at April 21, 2008 05:19 PM


irtusk,

No the burden of proof is on you. YOU are the one who claims that Mr. Babbin attended a meeting with Boeing when there is NO indication that it was meeting with Boeing. If the meeting was with Boeing Mr. Babbin would have likely said it was. Not indicating who the meeting was with in his article IS NOT the same a refusing to...

I never said you said must be Boeing. I said because you are a KC-30/NG/EADS Kool-Aid drinker you (consciously or unconsciously) ASSUME it does despite NO evidence that indicate so.

The NG/EADS CMARPS model alterations to reality ARE unrealistic. It is unfortunate that you are so ignorant as to not realize/understand that.

Stop lying about the KC-767AT take-off performance. It meet or exceeded the requirement to take-off from a 7000' runway. Even the "basic" KC-767A (lower thrust & less lift) procured by Italy & Japan meets the THRESHOLD & ALMOST meets the OBJECTIVE.

The point is that the KC-767AT meets or exceeds ALL requirements & when you use REAL WORLD data/comnditions to evaltuate the relative capabilites of the KC-767AT & KC-30 to perform REAL WORLD tanker missions/scenarios, the KC-767AT it the better KC-135 replacement. Greater capacity DOES NOT necessarily mean better - there ARE other factors.

I see you don't undersatd computer simulation programs either. ;)

Posted by: pfcem at April 21, 2008 04:17 PM


> There is absoluteley NO evidence that the meeting Mr. Babbin attended
> was with ANYONE affiliated with Boeing in any way.

you are confused

you said
> Here is a link to someone OTHER THAN Boeing

hence the burden of proof is on YOU to show that it was NOT Boeing

you CANNOT say it was someone other than Boeing when you know no such thing

i can't prove it was Boeing, but i never claimed that i could

on the other hand you are the one making the claim that requires proof

proof you don't have

> You just assume it "must"

talk about misrepresenting what people said

i never said it 'must' be Boeing

i said it was 'very likely' Boeing

those are 2 very different things

> And just because YOU did not attend the meeting or through you obviously
> limited information channels know of the meeting does not make it a "secret
> propaganda" meeting

what makes it secret is that he refuses to name who sponsored the meeting

hence the source is secret

do you know who the source is? no. thus it is a secret

there's a lot of meetings i'm not invited to, but i still know which parties are involved, hence they are not secret.

> The USAF, NG/EADS, Boeing, the DOD, the list goes on & on of those
> who know & have stated that the NG/EADS CMARPS model was altered/manuiplated
> . . . &/or because of limitations of the program.

we've been through this a few times

yes we know the program was altered because of limitations in its design

the question is: were those alterations realistic or not?

> but they do ALL indicate quite clearly that smaller/lighter tankers
> CAN operate from more bases & in larger numbers than larger/heavier tankers

it sounds like those are based of purely hypothetical planes that don't take into account the actual characteristics of the planes in question (such as the KC-767s sucky takeoff performance, the KC-30s midline landing gear, etc)

> You are STILL missing it. If the TRS-05/MCS-05 studies had found
> the KC-10 ("large" tanker) to be better than the KC-135 ("medium" tanker)
> in most scenarios/operation then they would have concluded that the USAF
> needed 257-308 & 267-318 KC-10A equivalent tankers respectively

sorry, you're the one that's clueless about how this works

thank you for continuing to demonstrate it

> The KC-X is a KC-135 replacement program!

yes

> So how a possible replacement compares to the KC-135 is of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE.

the requirement was that it be at least as capable as the KC-135R, yes

> Even the NG/EADS CMARPS model judged/compared the KC-767 & KC-30 vs a KC-135R equivalent.

and your point is?

> The NG/EADS CMARPS model scores used for the KC-X decision were each
> KC-767 was equal to 1.79 KC-135R & each KC-30 was equal to 1.9 KC-135R

ah, your point is that the KC-30 is a better KC-135R replacement than the KC-767

> And for those you don't know jack about such models, the score will
> in fact be different each time the program is run even without any changes.

whatever you say champ

> The fact is that the KC-767 has MORE than enough capacity (as a tanker & as a SOMETIMES cargo/people hauler) to replace the KC-135

and the fact is THE KC-767 IS COMPETING AGAINST THE KC-30, NOT THE KC-135R

Posted by: irtusk at April 20, 2008 11:58 PM


irtusk,

I see you have NO idea how things work on capital hill either. There is absoluteley NO evidence that the meeting Mr. Babbin attended was with ANYONE affiliated with Boeing in any way. You just assume it "must" since the information happens to agree with Boeing's position that there were things wrong with the (NG/EADS CMARPS model in particular) selection process. And just because YOU did not attend the meeting or through you obviously limited information channels know of the meeting does not make it a "secret propaganda" meeting. So, not only do YOU (or anyone else) not know it came from Boeing it most likely did not otherwise the author would have indicated so.

The USAF, NG/EADS, Boeing, the DOD, the list goes on & on of those who know & have stated that the NG/EADS CMARPS model was altered/manuiplated & that it was done so that the KC-30 COULD be competative so that ther WOULD be a competition &/or because of limitations of the program.

The 25' distance is ONLY acceptable when the aircraft are NON OPERATIONAL. As indicated there are situations where 35' is "acceptable" but NOWHERE in any USAF documentation/protocal is 25' acceptable for tankers in operational status.

The TRS-05/MCS-05, Rand & the Boeing studies DO support the position that the KC-767 can operate from more airfields than the KC-30! Aside from the Boeing study (the only one specifically oriented to compare the KC-767 vs the KC-30) they just don't say "KC-767 vs KC-30" but they do ALL indicate quite clearly that smaller/lighter tankers CAN operate from more bases & in larger numbers than larger/heavier tankers. So bigger/greater capacity DOES NOT necessarily mean better!

You are STILL missing it. If the TRS-05/MCS-05 studies had found the KC-10 ("large" tanker) to be better than the KC-135 ("medium" tanker) in most scenarios/operation then they would have concluded that the USAF needed 257-308 & 267-318 KC-10A equivalent tankers respectively.

The KC-X is a KC-135 replacement program! So how a possible replacement compares to the KC-135 is of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE. Even the NG/EADS CMARPS model judged/compared the KC-767 & KC-30 vs a KC-135R equivalent. The NG/EADS CMARPS model scores used for the KC-X decision were each KC-767 was equal to 1.79 KC-135R & each KC-30 was equal to 1.9 KC-135R. So even with the manipulated data the KC-30 is not THAT much "better" (a whopping 6%) than the KC-767. Note that the respective scores of the KC-767 & KC-30 changed each time there was a change to the NG/EADS CMARPS model...And for those you don't know jack about such models, the score will in fact be different each time the program is run even without any changes. Who knows how many times the program was run by the KC-X selection team or why they chose to use the scores they did use instead of any of the other scores.

The fact is that the KC-767 has MORE than enough capacity (as a tanker & as a SOMETIMES cargo/people hauler) to replace the KC-135. It is a matter of the RIGHT tool (tanker) for the job, not which is the biggest or has the greatest capacity (otherwise we should stop fooling around wth the KC-767 vs KC-30 & go with KC-B747x vs KC-A380x).

Posted by: pfcem at April 20, 2008 11:31 PM


> But since you are a KC-30/NG/EADS Kool-Aid drinker you automatically assume anything "pro KC-767/Boeing" is Boeing propaganda

when someone holds a secret meeting for the press to push out their propaganda about flaws in the process, it's a pretty safe bet that it is Boeing

but the point that i was addressing here was this:

> Here is a link to someone OTHER THAN Boeing who has leanered the TRUTH about the flaws of the IFARA computer model.

1. you were WRONG to claim it was someone other than Boeing when you know no such thing
2. not only do you not know it wasn't Boeing, it is very likely that it was Boeing

> even AFTER it has been shown to be FALSE

except it hasn't been shown to be false

> Thus the use of 25' distance (which was itself a change from reality/normal procedure)

except you yourself say 25' is acceptable for parking

> I NEVER said TRS-05, MCS-05 or the RAND studies said ANYTHING directly about the KC-767 vs KC-30 (quit misrepresenting what I have posted). But they ALL did indicate that smaller/lighter aircraft can operate from more airfields (& in greater numbers)

um, WTF

let me quote you directly:

> TRS-05/MCS-05, RAND & a study commissioned by Boeing all indicate that a KC-767 or
> similar size/weight tanker can operate from MANY more airfields (potential tanker
> bases) that the KC-30 or similar size/weight tanker.

you can play silly word games about 'directly' but the point is pretty clear:
you were claiming TRS-05/MCS-05, Rand & the Boeing study support your position that the KC-767 can operate from more airfields than the KC-30

i asked you to back up such a claim

so far you have been
1) unwilling
2) unable
3) claimed i'm lazy
4) claimed i misrepresented what you wrote

we are left with the inescapable conclusion that you were WRONG yet again

when you keep being wrong on so many things we know, it's hard to consider you credible on the things we don't know

> THE most important thing to come out of TRS-05/MCS-05 (in terms of KC-767 vs KC-30) was "KC-135R equvalent" rather than "KC-10A equivalent"

LOLOLOL

the 'most important' thing to come out of the study was what they used as their baseline? never mind any conclusions of, you know, the study. The only thing that mattered was what they used as the baseline in the study. That's the silliest thing i've ever heard

the KC-135R is the backbone of the fleet, to use it as the baseline is a given

> MANY tanker operations/scenarios a KC-135R tanker force is SUPERIOR to a KC-10A tanker force DESPITE the KC-10A's MUCH greater capacity.

i think you are confusing 'many' with 'a few exceptional circumstances'

nevertheless, neither the KC-135R nor the KC-10A are in this competition, so stop throwing out red herrings, oh master of the red herrings

> AKA when the USAF conducted studies on its own (in 2000) WITHOUT political interference it found that MEDIUM (KC-135R equvalent) tankers, not LARGE (KC-10A equivalent) tanker, is what it needed.

just because the KC-135R was used as a baseline means nothing of the sort

> Also keep in mind that as a cargo hauler the KC-767 is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over the KC-135.

well that would be interesting . . . IF THE KC-767 WAS COMPETING AGAINST THE KC-135R . . . which it isn't, oh herring master

> As I have said before, the USAF is looking to replace its KC-135s NOT
> because of a lack of capacity of the KC-135 (in fact even the KC-135's
> full capacity is not used much of the time) but because they are old &
> worn out (aka we can not keep operating them forever) & we "need" to
> start replacing them soon so that they can ALL be replaced by ~2040.

yet another herring for my dinner

yes the KC-135s need to start to be replaced

the real question is:
what is the right plane to do it?

Posted by: irtusk at April 20, 2008 12:24 PM


irtusk,

There are HUNDREDS of people on capital hill that are prevy to information about the KC-X program/decision that the public is not (& the VAST MAJORITY of them have NO affiliation directly or indirectly with Boeing). But since you are a KC-30/NG/EADS Kool-Aid drinker you automatically assume anything "pro KC-767/Boeing" is Boeing propaganda (yet not amazingly readily accept anything "pro NG/EADS/KC-30" - even AFTER it has been shown to be FALSE).

The NG/EADS CMARPS model could only accept one variable. Thus the use of 25' distance (which was itself a change from reality/normal procedure) ALL AROUND (& the use of the strongest tarmac to an ENTIRE base & the "fixed" turnaround time) when in reality it is only 25' when defueled & parked (aka non-operational), in ALL other instances the distance is greater. There is a contingency which allows (when they HAVE to due to limited space but then additional safety vehicles & protocals MUST be used) a reduction from 50' to 35' (NOT 25').

I NEVER said TRS-05, MCS-05 or the RAND studies said ANYTHING directly about the KC-767 vs KC-30 (quit misrepresenting what I have posted). But they ALL did indicate that smaller/lighter aircraft can operate from more airfields (& in greater numbers) than larger/heavier aircraft. THE most important thing to come out of TRS-05/MCS-05 (in terms of KC-767 vs KC-30) was "KC-135R equvalent" rather than "KC-10A equivalent" & that for MANY tanker operations/scenarios a KC-135R tanker force is SUPERIOR to a KC-10A tanker force DESPITE the KC-10A's MUCH greater capacity. ;) AKA when the USAF conducted studies on its own (in 2000) WITHOUT political interference it found that MEDIUM (KC-135R equvalent) tankers, not LARGE (KC-10A equivalent) tanker, is what it needed.

Also keep in mind that as a cargo hauler the KC-767 is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over the KC-135.
passengers = 2.375 KC-135
patients = 4.5 KC-135
463L pallets = 3.17 KC-135

As I have said before, the USAF is looking to replace its KC-135s NOT because of a lack of capacity of the KC-135 (in fact even the KC-135's full capacity is not used much of the time) but because they are old & worn out (aka we can not keep operating them forever) & we "need" to start replacing them soon so that they can ALL be replaced by ~2040.

Posted by: pfcem at April 20, 2008 12:53 AM


> A) Mr. Babbin said "I learned in a Capitol Hill meeting earlier this week." THAT DOES NOT MEAN BOEING.

don't be naive

who else
1) would have that sort of information
2) would be interested in disseminating it
3) would he not want to credit in even the most oblique way (not 'an official in the procurement process', not 'an analyst at a think tank'

> B) Even IF the information came (directly or indirectly) from Boeing THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT UNTRUE.

you're the one that said to 'wake up' because here was information 'that didn't come from Boeing!'

> Due to the fire hazards associated with hot defueling op-erations

would they do hot defuelling while 'parked'? I would think they would defuel and then send it to its parking spot

> NG/EADS CMARPS model used 25 for ALL [That is not accurate/realistic]

did it? i only saw the claim about 25' for parking

> Same with tarmac stength, the NG/EADS CMARPS model used the STRONGEST tarmac at the base as the strength of tarmac for the ENTIRE base

yes we've been over this, this is one of the 2 i'm awaiting an explanation on

> On turnaround time...someone as ignorant as you is easily fooled by the USAF "explination"

but you have no source, no credibility

it is simply your word against theirs

i'll take theirs, thank you very much

> but the reality is that during high tempo operations (when
> turnaround time is MOST important) ALL aircraft (tanker or otherwise)
> are turned around as quickly as possible

and the AF said 'as quickly as possible' often involves constraints OTHER than refuelling

now, even if it is constrained by refuelling time, you don't have to fill the plane completely, and as such you could turn around a KC-30 with the same amount of fuel as a KC-767 in the same amount of time

> TRS-05 concluded that to meet the National Military Strategy,
> DoD required 500-600 KC-135R equivalents, with an 85% Mission Capable
> Rate, and 900-1,000
> aircrews, for a crew ratio of 1.66 crews per aircraft to1.92
> aircrews per aircraft.

in other words it said nothing about which plane had access to more airfields

as you may recall, you said it found that the KC-767 could operate from more airfields than the KC-30

a claim you have yet to substantiate

> The Mobility Capabilities Study reportedly recommended theacquisition
> of 520 - 640 KC-135R model equivalents.

ditto

Posted by: irtusk at April 19, 2008 05:44 PM


irtusk,

If KC-30/NG/EADS Kool-Aid drinkers like yourself would stop lying about the A330-200 "killing" the 767-200 & (even if it were true) that somehow proves it is superior then I would not have to continue to set the record straight as to the truth of the matter.

It would also help if you would actually do some research &/or even read what has already been linked to. A) Mr. Babbin said "I learned in a Capitol Hill meeting earlier this week." THAT DOES NOT MEAN BOEING. B) Even IF the information came (directly or indirectly) from Boeing THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT UNTRUE.

***

Due to the fire hazards associated with hot defueling op-erations, the preferred distance between aircraft wingtips is 50 feet. However, at those installations where aircraft parking space is limited, therefore not permitting a 50 foot wing tip clearance, the wing tip separation distance can be reduced to a minimum of 35 feet. Whenever adistance of less than 50 feet is maintained between aircraft, wing tips a crash fire rescue vehicle must be at the aircraft during hot defueling operations. [That is a MINIMUM of 35' not 25']

RFP Parking Ramp Rules
25 ft wingtip clearance while parked
30 ft wing tip clearance on the interior taxiway
50 ft wingtip clearance on the peripheral taxiway

NG/EADS CMARPS model used 25 for ALL [That is not accurate/realistic]

Same with tarmac stength, the NG/EADS CMARPS model used the STRONGEST tarmac at the base as the strength of tarmac for the ENTIRE base - thus allowing the larger & heavier KC-30 to FULLY operate at bases where it could not in reality do so.

***

On turnaround time...someone as ignorant as you is easily fooled by the USAF "explination" but the reality is that during high tempo operations (when turnaround time is MOST important) ALL aircraft (tanker or otherwise) are turned around as quickly as possible so many/most of the "other factors" are negated/dealt with in such a way that for tankers, the time to fuel the aircraft is THE most time consuming.

***

TRS-05 concluded that to meet the National Military Strategy, DoD required 500-600 KC-135R equivalents, with an 85% Mission Capable Rate, and 900-1,000 aircrews, for a crew ratio of 1.66 crews per aircraft to1.92 aircrews per aircraft.

The Mobility Capabilities Study reportedly recommended theacquisition of 520 - 640 KC-135R model equivalents.

Posted by: pfcem at April 18, 2008 02:20 AM


> YOU are the one confusing the issue with red herrings! How A330
> airliners sell/have sold vs 767 airliners sell/have sold says
> NOTHING about their respective merits as military tankers or even as airliners

you sure spent a lot of time arguing about that 'red herring'

> I am surprised nobody picked up on this but I have actually provided
> a link to an article from SOMEBODY OTHER THAN BOEING that appears
> to explain how/why for some of the "changes"

i'm surprised you didn't see my reply that it was obvious he was regurgitating the information straight from Boeing

> Two of those five are questionable (aka can be "reasoned" away
> sufficiently to satisfy the ignorant such as yourself)

1. if the GAO rejects those claim will you call them 'ignorant' too?
2. if we're ignorant, please illuminate us with your knowledge, why aren't their explanations credible?
3. those 2 SOUNDED compelling too . . . until I heard the explanation

hence my hesitation in putting too much weight in the others that also SOUND compelling until I get the full story

PS- STILL waiting for your link to the conclusions of TRS-05/MCS-05, the RAND study and the methodology of the Boeing study

Posted by: irtusk at April 15, 2008 05:26 PM


irtusk,

YOU are the one confusing the issue with red herrings! How A330 airliners sell/have sold vs 767 airliners sell/have sold says NOTHING about their respective merits as military tankers or even as airliners. Despite what ignorant people like yourself WANT people to believe they ARE NOT in the same class (253/293/380 passengers vs 181/224/255).

Boeing claims MANY things are wrong with the NG/EADS CMARPS model. Note that the public "summary" version of the Boeing protest states "Among other changes, the reviced model:" then lists FIVE changes made to the model. Two of those five are questionable (aka can be "reasoned" away sufficiently to satisfy the ignorant such as yourself) & the other three are COMPLETELY unrealistic (unless the KC-X program is to include untold $billions in infrastructure improvemnts around the world which would still only PARTAILLY address them). The Air Forces said that these changes were "necesary in order for the larger KC-30 to even complete the mission scenarios specified."

I am surprised nobody picked up on this but I have actually provided a link to an article from SOMEBODY OTHER THAN BOEING that appears to explain how/why for some of the "changes". That is for all the complexity of the NG/EADS CMARPS model, it was in fact NOT COMPLEX ENOUGH! "The IFARA computer model could only accept one variable on the issue of airfield capability" & "the Air Force rounded up the data on each airfield’s capacity". This appears to explain 3 (possibly 4) of the 5 changes Boeing listed (tarmaq strength, aircraft spacing & turn around time - possibly even number of tankers per base).

Posted by: pfcem at April 15, 2008 12:14 AM


and while we're at it

> none of them are KNOWN to have used inaccurate data/assumptions

there is a difference between what Boeing CLAIMS and what we KNOW

we KNOW they claimed 4 things were wrong and we KNOW they were WRONG on at least 2 of them

the other 2 are pending explanation

Posted by: irtusk at April 12, 2008 10:32 AM


> Sorry but I am not doing your research for you since you claim to be so informed

nope, i can only go by what i've seen

'not doing your research' sounds a lot like 'they don't exactly back up my position like i claim'

yes the numbers Boeing claims are public, but anything about methodology certainly isn't

> It is truly pathetic how you disreguard information provided by/from people who were there

EXCEPT YOU DON'T FREAKING PROVIDE IT

you just wave your hands and say 'obviously you're wrong'

i've looked for them, i can't find them, obviously you know where they are, please provide some links so we can move on instead of trading insults back and forth

> also LOVE how you continue to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how the airline industry/market works.

you keep confusing the issue with this red herring

disagreeing about a factual matter (where one side refuses to provide their evidence) has nothing to do with understanding 'how the industry/market works'

Posted by: irtusk at April 11, 2008 10:59 PM


irtusk,

Sorry but I am not doing your research for you since you claim to be so informed. The conclusions of the TRS-05/MCS-05, RAND & Boeing commissioned study are all public & unlike the the NG/EADS CMARPS program none of them are KNOWN to have used inaccurate data/assumptions. ;)

It is truly pathetic how you disreguard information provided by/from people who were there (aka at the meeting/debreifing) simply because it contradicts your BS.

I also LOVE how you continue to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how the airline industry/market works.

Posted by: pfcem at April 11, 2008 01:46 AM


> (even AFTER it has been proved inaccurate)

except you prove squat

you keep making statements and then not providing any evidence to back them up

> Just a link to a powerpoint document

the cutest part was slide 9

"On Schedule to Deliver Remaining 2 Aircraft to Japan"

LOLOLOLOLOL

what schedule is that? like the 11th new one?

> Here is a link to someone OTHER THAN Boeing who has leanered the TRUTH
> about the flaws of the IFARA computer model.

no, that's someone who learned BOEING'S SPIN on the matter

let us see where he got his (mis)information

"a Capitol Hill meeting earlier this week"

who was the meeting with?

"A well-informed person who attended that meeting"

ie Boeing spokesdrone

the ONLY reason he wants to give zero background on the person is because they are from Boeing

if it was someone in the AF he would say something like "an Air Force official involved with tanker operations"

> I am not saying that the A330 did not CONTRIBUTE TO the decline of the
> 767 but it DID NOT kill the 767

so the A330 'contributed to the decline of' the 767 but didn't 'kill' it

well i guess that's technically true since the 767 line is still (barely) open

if you want to play your word games, fine
but in the real world, the A330 squashed it flat

> Anticipation of the 787 has done more to "kill" the 767 in more recent
> years that the A330 could ever dream of.

'anticipation of the 787' didn't seem to hurt the A330 at all, which is enjoying a record backlog

funny how that works

> Stop fooling yourself that the NG/EADS CMARPS program with all the
> inaccurate data & assumptions it used JUST SO THE KC-30 COULD BE
> COMPETATIVE got it right but other studies (using REAL WORLD data)
> over the past decade or so got it wrong.

that's what you keep saying, but you'll have to excuse us for not believing you without some better evidence than some report of a secret meeting with some anonymous person

Posted by: irtusk at April 10, 2008 05:51 PM


> TRS-05/MCS-05

1. 'conveniently' these are classified so who knows what they actually say

2. this was done in 2000 before the center-line landing gear was added

> RAND

um, which RAND study?

closest i can find is:
http://rand.org/pubs/monographs/2006/RAND_MG495.pdf
"the parking area required differs among alternatives
by about 30 percent, depending on the theater scenario. How much
to weigh this characteristic in choosing among alternatives is a
matter of military judgment."

> a study commissioned by Boeing

where is this study? can we examine it?

Posted by: irtusk at April 10, 2008 05:05 PM


JJ,

I don't get my information from Boeing BUT as I have indicated before I can't help it if Boeing information coinsides with mine. Perhaps you should write Boeing & tell them to stop getting all their information from me. ;)

It is the PUBLISHED airline industry data which states that the 767-200ER burns 24% less fuel than the A330-200. Boeing go it from Conklin & de Decker, an independent aviation research company...

Don't confuse the 767-300ER with the 767-200ER. Although I would not put it past someone like you to PURPOSELY compare the wrong aircraft to try & fool people into believing YOUR LIES. The 767-300ER & 767-400ER trade range for greater capacity. The 767-200ER can fly ANYWHERE the A330-200 can. In fact, do a search for "twinjet world distance record" & you will find records set (several times) by the 767-200ER that were later broken by the 777-200LR (no record for the A330-200).

Stop fooling yourself that the NG/EADS CMARPS program with all the inaccurate data & assumptions it used JUST SO THE KC-30 COULD BE COMPETATIVE got it right but other studies (using REAL WORLD data) over the past decade or so got it wrong.

You obviously don't know how tankers actually operate or else you would not continue your foolish BS 1-vs-1 comparision &/or that the KC-30's ~20% greater capacity is a huge advantage.

Posted by: pfcem at April 9, 2008 02:26 AM


irtusk,

TRS-05/MCS-05, RAND & a study commissioned by Boeing all indicate that a KC-767 or similar size/weight tanker can operate from MANY more airfields (potential tanker bases) that the KC-30 or similar size/weight tanker.

Here is a link to someone OTHER THAN Boeing who has leanered the TRUTH about the flaws of the IFARA computer model.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25851

I am not saying that the A330 did not CONTRIBUTE TO the decline of the 767 but it DID NOT kill the 767. The fact is it was the evolution of the market which REALLY leand to the "demise" of the 767 just as it did for the 757.

IF there were not A330 then the demands of the market would have "created" an A330 equivalent. The 767-300 & 767-400 would no doubt have sold more & the proposed 777-100 would most likely have beed developed to fill the niche the A330 filled - not to mention that Airbus WOULD (if it wanted to stay in business) have introduced SOMETHING similar to the A330.

First delivery: A330-300 December 30, 1993 to Air Inter.

Anticipation of the 787 has done more to "kill" the 767 in more recent years that the A330 could ever dream of.

Posted by: pfcem at April 9, 2008 01:54 AM


Before I respond to the KC-30 NG/EADS Kool-Aid drinkers who automatically accept anything pro-KC-30 NG/EADS &/or anti-KC-767 Boeing (even AFTER it has been proved inaccurate) & automatically reject anything con-KC-30 NG/EADS &/or pro-KC-767 Boeing...

Just a link to a powerpoint document (YES IT IS FROM BOEING) that puts some of the points of the Boeing protest into a format other than the 22 page PUBLIC "summery" of the 133 page protest.

http://www.boeing.com/ids/globaltanker/files/KC-767_100DayProtestBriefing.ppt

Posted by: pfcem at April 9, 2008 12:44 AM


"You are hopeless. You need to get your facts straight."

The hopeless person is the one who gets his "facts" straight from Boeing. =D

"Funny how you consider the fuel capacity/offload difference to be "HUGE" yet the fuel economy difference is "not significant" when as a % they are quite close..."

Not funny at all, since I do not accept the lying Boeing claim about A330 fuel efficiency.

"The 767-200ER is 24% more fuel efficient than the A330-200... THOSE ARE AIRLINE INDUSTRY FACTS!"

Nope, that is a Boeing lie. Here is an airline industry fact:

http://www.aviation.com/business/071130-hawaiian-airbus-service-plans.html

"Mark Dunkerley, Hawaiian Airlines' CEO.... said Hawaiian's A330-200s and A350-800s would offer higher seat capacity, better fuel-efficiency, lower seat-mile costs and longer range than the airline's 767-300ERs."

Think an airline CEO does his homework? Think he knows more than you about cost effectiveness and fuel efficiency?

"Carring more "stuff" does not translate to greater endurance."

Are you really this ignorant? Payload and endurance trade against each other. The A330 can fly a much greater payload over the same range as the 767, and thus the A330 can fly the same payload as the 767 over a much greater range. However, the A330 in fact has a longer range, as the Hawaiian CEO said.

"For airlines it is not about lbs of fuel per hour as BUT total operational costs PER PASSENGER."

For the A330 this is number is LESS than for the 767!

"The A330-200 DID NOT kill the 767 commercially."

Yes, it did. Boeing's own paper says so!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/272256_tankerupdate01.html

"The newer A330-200 has clobbered Boeing's 767 in commercial sales and will remain in production for some time."

And I see Irtusk has found some other good quotes.

"In fact between 1995 & 2005 the same number (375) of 767 were delivered as A330."

You want to look at the order backlog for each aircraft, chief. A330 backlog, over 400 planes, 767 backlog, a handful.

"And again you are still neglecting to take into account how tankers are actually employed in operations."

My friend, that is exactly what you are doing. I've said enough about this already, I'm not going to repeat myself, however many times you do. Your claim that the A330's larger range offload is "essentially a null factor" is simply ridiculous.

"Due to is smaller size & lower weight, the KC-767AT WILL be able to operate from bases closer to refueling points."

Look at ANY military operation in the past 20 years, and tell me how many KC-135s were based close to the fight, and how many were based far away. In every case, the majority of the KC-135s were based far away because they wanted to put fighters close.

"The fuel offload difference SHRINKS to just 6% when the KC-767AT operates 500nm away but the KC-30 HAS to operate 1000nm away."

The KC-30 will not HAVE to operate 1000nm away. It can get as close to the fight as the KC-767. The only issue is HOW MANY can get closer, and the KC-767 has a minor advantage in number per base. The superior offload capability of the KC-30 easily negates this advantage.

"Or in order for the KC-30 to operate from the same base as the KC-767 it HAS to carry LESS fuel than the KC-767AT."

Flat out wrong.

"Tanker have been put back historically because they needed a 10,000+' (~8000 for the KC-135R) runway!"

Also flat out wrong. They have been put back historically because there was a more urgent need, in every real-world case, to put more fighters and short-range aircraft forward instead of tankers.

Your flailing is pretty amusing. There is literally NO conceivable real-world scenario where the KC-767 would be able to operate from 500nm away but the KC-30 would have to operate from 1000nm away. You are truly desperate if that's your best line of argument.

Posted by: JJ at April 8, 2008 11:22 PM


> Other studies (ones that use REAL WORLD data) found more-or-less
> the opposite numbers for the number of bases the KC-767AT & KC-30 could use...

which studies are those?

> That is the fact & it debunks the BS claim

hardly

1. it took time for the A330 to prove itself to potential customers
2. fleet commonality- a lot of existing 767 operators weren't just going to switch overnight
3. it was the A330-200 in particular that really hurt the 767, and its first delivery wasn't until 1998

i don't know why you take such a suicidal position. Even Boeing apologists acknowledge the obvious here

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/272256_tankerupdate01.html
"The newer A330-200 has clobbered Boeing's 767 in commercial sales and
will remain in production for some time."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0501120278jan12,0,2095789.story
"The 7E7 is intended to replace the company's aging 767, which has been
trampled in recent years by the A330"

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_26/b3839065_mz014.htm
"Its intermediate-size A330, which carries 200 to 250 passengers, has
essentially killed off the Boeing 767 with its greater fuel efficiency
and longer flying range."

(what was that you were saying about the FACT of the 767s longer range?)

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/EADS02298.xml&headline=Northrop%20Grumman/EADS%20Win%20USAF%20Tanker%20Award&channel=defense#

"The far newer A330 design continues to outpace the 767 in commercial orders."

let me ask you a question:
If the A330 didn't exist, would 767 sales be far higher than they are now?

yes or no

i dare you to say no, i really do ;)

Posted by: irtusk at April 8, 2008 08:43 PM


irtusk,

Yes I acknowledge that the Global Airfield Availability "spider chart" is flawed/innaccurate/misleading. I only mentioned it as "proof" that even NG/EADS acknowledges that the KC-767 can operaate from a 7000' runway with 202,000 lbs of fuel.

Other studies (ones that use REAL WORLD data) found more-or-less the opposite numbers for the number of bases the KC-767AT & KC-30 could use...

The BS claim is that the A330 killed the 767 yet the 767 sold JUST AS WELL as the A330 (both selling an average of ~40 per year for a DECADE). That is the fact & it debunks the BS claim. If the A330 had killed the 767 then 767 sales would not have remained steady at a rate ~equal to what it had sold prior to the 1990-1992 peak.

Posted by: pfcem at April 8, 2008 04:20 PM


> Even NG/EADS's BS "spider chart" CLEARY shows that the KC-767 could
> take-off from a 7000' runway with 202,000 lbs of fuel.

1. thank you for FINALLY answering the question
2. LOL at referring to the spider chart as an authority

i'm glad you recognize the accuracy of the spider chart, including its Global Airfield Availability stat which shows that the KC-30 can operate from 838 airfields with 200+K lbs fuel while the KC-767 can only operate from 465 of those fields

what was that you were you saying about the KC-767 operating from more fields?

"Global Airfield Availability reflects how many airfields a tanker
can operate from while carrying a useful load of fuel and provides
insights into future basing flexibility. The axis on the chart compares
the number of airfields in Air Mobility Command's airfield data base
that each tanker can operate from carrying at least 200,000 pounds
of fuel. The calculation uses military planning factors and
incorporates runway length, strength, and elevation."

> Runway length is not/would not be an issue for EITHER the KC-30 or KC-767AT

why thank you for your assurances that runway length is now irrelevant

(for some reason i feel that it's irrelevance is directly linked to Boeing's poor showing in this stat)

> Tarmac strength, ramp/parking space & other such infrastucture limitations WILL.

Global Airfield Availability took into account tarmac strength and other infrastructure limitation and guess what? The KC-767 LOSES

> The A330-200 DID NOT kill the 767 commercially

LOL, stick with arguments that have at least a slim chance of winning

if the A330 did not exist, the 767 line would be humming

ergo, the A330 killed the 767

call it 'changing the market' or whatever you want, the facts remain

> In fact between 1995 & 2005 the same number (375) of 767 were delivered as A330

1. looking at deliveries is irrelevant, you should be looking at ORDERS. The 767 had a lot of orders from before the A330 arrived and proved its worth that took a while to deliver
2. you want to look at deliveries? fine lets look at deliveries the last 4 years (2004-2007)
767 - 42
A330 - 233

> Due to is smaller size & lower weight, the KC-767AT WILL be
> able to operate from bases closer to refueling points

the Global Airfield Availability results say otherwise

> The fuel offload difference SHRINKS to just 6% when the KC-767AT
> operates 500nm away but the KC-30 HAS to operate 1000nm away.

so what you're saying is that the KC-30 has the option of operating from further away to free up bases for the exclusive use of combat aircraft and STILL offload more fuel

wow, sounds like the KC-30 has some pretty powerful flexibility

> Or in order for the KC-30 to operate from the same base as the
> KC-767 it HAS to carry LESS fuel than the KC-767AT

which theoretical base would that be?

(and evidence to back up your claim if you please)

i don't know, maybe you can find 1 or 2 where the tarmac strength is just exactly right to make such a difference

on the other hand, the Global Airfield Availability results found 373 airfields where the KC-767 would be more limited than the KC-30

Posted by: irtusk at April 7, 2008 08:59 PM


JJ,

You are hopeless. You need to get your facts straight.

Funny how you consider the fuel capacity/offload difference to be "HUGE" yet the fuel economy difference is "not significant" when as a % they are quite close...

The 767-200ER is 24% more fuel efficient than the A330-200. That is a difference of ~2800 lbs of fuel per hour AT CRUISING. And the commercial 767-200ER with "just" ~160,000 lbs/24,000 gal of fuel has essentially the same range (various sources give different numbers but they are within 2.5%) as the commercial A330-200 with ~245,000 lbs/36,750 gal of fuel. THOSE ARE AIRLINE INDUSTRY FACTS! Carring more "stuff" does not translate to greater endurance.

For airlines it is not about lbs of fuel per hour as BUT total operational costs PER PASSENGER. And the choice of aircraft is determined more by the number of projected passengers per flight than ANYHTING ELSE - that is why there are different sized arliners. Much of the market grew beyong the capacity of the 767-200 (ever notice how MOST of the time later models of airliners are LARGER than previous/existing models) but had not reached the capacity of the 777-200. Thus MUCH of the A330's success stems from it have greater capacity that the 767 but not as much as the 777. It is kind of like the Dodge Dakota - bigger than a Ford Ranger/Chevy S10 but smaller than a Ford F-150/Chevy Silverado thus it fills that niche between them (it just so happens that for the A330 that niche has been quite significant). Note how the 787 has more capacity than the 767 it will replace & how the A350 has more capacity than the A330 it will replace... Oh have fun telling all those airlines that operate 767-200s at places where the A330-200 can't (or can but at GREATLY reduced weight) that they are wrong & they can actually operate A330-200 where thay can not operate 767-200. :)

The A330-200 DID NOT kill the 767 commercially. In fact between 1995 & 2005 the same number (375) of 767 were delivered as A330. Deliveries of 767 peaked from 1990-1992 at 60+ per year, decreased & leveled off to pre-90/92 levels at ~40 per year from 1993-2002 then declined again beginning in 2003. Yes the A330 continues to sell but it is the CHANGING MARKET (& the upcomming 787) that has caused the 767 decline MUCH more than the A330. The same will happen to the A330 when the 787 hits full stride & the A350 comes closer to being delivered.

And again you are still neglecting to take into account how tankers are actually employed in operations. The KC-767AT is able to offload MORE than enoungh fuel to do the job (even the KC-135 was able to offload more fuel than it has historically been asked to). When you look at how tankers actually operate, the greater fuel capacity of the KC-30 becomes essentially null.

Due to is smaller size & lower weight, the KC-767AT WILL be able to operate from bases closer to refueling points. The fuel offload difference SHRINKS to just 6% when the KC-767AT operates 500nm away but the KC-30 HAS to operate 1000nm away. Or in order for the KC-30 to operate from the same base as the KC-767 it HAS to carry LESS fuel than the KC-767AT. Number booms in the air has ALWAYS been more important for shorter/"tactical" missions (both the KC-767AT & KC-30 SUCK compared to the KC-10 for longer/"strategic"/bomber missions) than max fuel capacity per tanker - that is one of the reasons why even KC-135 don't take-off with a full load of fuel much. Tanker have been put back historically because they needed a 10,000+' (~8000 for the KC-135R) runway! IF we still intended to operate tankers from 1000+nm away why the hell would there be a REQUIREMENT for the KC-X to operate from a 7000' runway or have ANY "survivability" requirements?

Posted by: pfcem at April 7, 2008 07:05 PM


irtusk,

The KC-767AT met or exceeded all performance criteria. Among the performance criteria...

3.2.1.1.4.1 The KC-X shall be capable of operating from a 7,000 ft dry, hard-surface runway at sea level (THRESHOLD) using FAA ground rules.
3.2.1.1.4.2 The KC-X should be capable of operating from a 7,000 ft dry, hard-surface runway at sea level at maximum weight for takeoff (OBJECTIVE) using FAA ground rules.

Even NG/EADS's BS "spider chart" CLEARY shows that the KC-767 could take-off from a 7000' runway with 202,000 lbs of fuel.

Besides your whole focus on runway length just continues to show you don't know what you are talking about. Runway length is not/would not be an issue for EITHER the KC-30 or KC-767AT. Tarmac strength, ramp/parking space & other such infrastucture limitations WILL.

Posted by: pfcem at April 7, 2008 05:35 PM


Boeing will limit its hiring of local engineers for design of the 747-8, the new derivative of its iconic jumbo jet, and give a major role to engineers at Boeing's Moscow Design Center and at outside suppliers.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003034046_boeing02.html?syndication=rss


--------------------------------------------------

So , Boeing , that all-american company , is hiring red russian engineers to design its all new aircraft.


oh how ironic given there arguement that the KC-767` is an all american tanker....

Posted by: Harlequin at April 7, 2008 12:37 PM


"Boeing HAS made a strong case to the GAO (Much stronger than you have any idea since you have not seen the actual 133 page protest document nor the FOUR additional protest documents."

How can you know how strong it is? You haven't seen the documents either. Boeing's case could be much WEAKER than you know. The fact that Boeing has filed a lot of documents does not indicate anything about how "strong" their case is. Most likely they are taking the shotgun

approach - protest anything and everything and hope some of it works.

You shouldn't criticize someone for making claims without having seen the documents when you yourself haven't seen them!

"The KC-30 is not THAT much better than the KC-767AT at unloading fuel at a given range."

Yes, it is. At 1000nm from base, the KC-30 can offload 153,000lbs, while the KC-767 can only offload 119,000lbs, a 28% difference, which is HUGE.

"the lbs of fuel difference actually SHRINKS as distance increases due to the KC-30's higher fuel consumption."

The fuel efficiency of the 767 is not significantly greater than the A330, and certainly not enough to counterbalance the difference in range offload. Your claim (uncritically regurgitating Boeing lies as usual) that the 767 is greatly more efficient is clearly absurd. If this were true, no airline

in the world would have bought the A330 over the 767 - and the two aircraft directly compete with each other - yet many airlines have done so. In fact, the A330 has KILLED the 767 in the commercial market, and nobody counts dollars like they do! Shouldn't that tell anyone with an ounce of common sense that Boeing is lying and the fuel efficiency of the 767 is not much greater than that of the A330?

"The KC-30 DOES NOT have greater indurance."

Yes, it does.

"Commercial 767-200ER with ~160,000 lbs/24,000 gal of fuel has essentially the same range (various sources give different numbers but they are within 2.5%) as the commercial A330-200 with ~245,000 lbs/36,750 gal of fuel. The KC-767AT carries more than 200,000 lbs/30,000 gal of

fuel."

Uh, hello, even if one accepts the range claim, the A330 carries A LOT MORE STUFF. Like, 30% more passengers or cargo. Thus, fuel cost per passenger or pound of cargo carried will be less for the A330 than the 767. Ya think the airlines haven't figured this out? That's why the

A330 has killed the 767 commercially! When we're talking about tankers, if you calculate fuel offloaded divided by fuel offloaded plus fuel consumed, the KC-30 will beat the KC-767 hands down, a fact that the USAF, the RAF, the RAAF, and others obviously understand.

"Yes operating from smaller airfields is a HUGE advantage. It is the tanker that can operate from smaller airfields which is more flexible because it can not only operate from larger airfields but it can operate from smaller airfields also. Operating from smaller airfields closer to action saves

HUGE amounts of fuel & time... And it is not just being able to operate from smaller airfields but also being able to operate in larger numbers (or taking up less space) at any given airfield."

By this logic the USAF should have bought the KC-737! Gee, that would have been incredibly flexible.

There are not that many airfields that the 767 can operate from that the A330 can't. In fact, for a variety of reasons, the A330 can operate from a LOT more airfields worldwide than the 767, and thus the A330 is more "flexible" even though it is a larger plane.

What does actual operational experience tell us? The fact is, the Air Force usually does not put the tankers forward. It puts as many fighters forward as possible and puts the tankers back. This was even true in Allied Force, where the number of available airfields was about as high as

it could possibly be in any remotely conceivable scenario, and yet they put most of the tankers back in Germany, France, Spain, and Britain, and put the fighters forward. Thus, not only does the supposed "advantage" of being able to base forward never actually result in any advantage in the real world, but the A330 is superior in the real world because it can be based further back and still offload more fuel at the forward tanker tracks.

"Yes the operating from closer airfields & consuming less fuel DOES negate or reverse fuel capacity advantage. The fuel offload difference between the KC-767AT & KC-30 is not THAT big to begin with"

The range offload difference between them is HUGE, and the fuel efficiency difference is small, as noted above, so these factors do NOT negate the A330 advantage in fuel capacity.

Posted by: JJ at April 6, 2008 09:04 PM


RE: See Figure 3.1 from the SRD: the THRESHOLD (3.2.1.1.1.1) for Fuel Offload vs. Radius Range runs from 117,000 lbs @ 500nm to 20,000 lbs @ 2500nm. The OBJECTIVE (3.2.1.1.1.2) is simply to exceed that. Clearly that is an indication for the desire for a "medium" tanker as opposed to a "large" tanker or the THRESHOLD would have been higher (both lbs & distance) & an indication of some desired OBJECTIVE even higher would have been indicated.
In laymens terms THRESHOLD is the MINIMUM requirement & OBJECTIVE is the MAXIMUM requirement. In other words the THRESHOLD is the MINIMUM being asked for & the OBJECTIVE is the MAXIMUM hoped for. Just one of the many things which makes the KC-X RFP/SRD rather odd is that typically the THRESHOLD is something believed to be obtainable & the OBJECTIVE is more of a "pie in the sky" that is quite difficult to achieve. But with the KC-X BOTH teams handily exceeded the Fuel Offload vs. Radius Range THRESHOLD (which everyone who knew anything about it knew they would) & the OBJECTIVE was in essence not even give since it was simply to exceed the THRESHOLD. The RFP/SRD is also VERY vague about airlift capability (cargo capacity) as well.
-------------
Geez,
Your unfamiliarity with aircraft design principles, RFPs, and contracting in general is glaring, and you obviously didn’t read my post at: http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/2008/04/boeings-kc-45-protest-that-dog-wont_05.html before picking that one. (apologies to DT for link-dropping my own stuff.)

First: your perception of Thresholds and Objectives is, simply stated WRONG. The Gov’t does not set individual thresholds and objectives in a vacuum. Both types are considered achievable, and ALL of the thresholds must be achieved as a minimum unless you can convince the Gov’t otherwise (also a provision in this RFP). Objectives should be considered achievable goals (the Gov’t cannot set an objective they do not believe is achievable – now THAT is grounds for a protest!) as standalones but achieving each of them may come at the cost elsewhere in the design. Among the first things they teach you in any system or aircraft design program is that there is no such thing as a ‘perfect design’: there are always tradeoffs. One contractor might give up range for payload and another might give up speed for range for the very same mission. It all depends upon what the contractor believes the ‘sweet spot’ is. Boeing evidently convinced themselves that a KC-767 size was best in the face of a larger competitor. As I note in my referenced post, Boeing is claiming the sentences in the RFP that stated:
---------
Depending on substantiating rationale, positive consideration will be provided for performance above the stated KPP thresholds up to the KPP objective level. [And here comes Boeing's 'money shot'!] No consideration will be provided for exceeding KPP objectives.
------------
As the basis for much of their ‘smaller’ tanker argument - which you also attempt to use as a basis for discounting more capability. Unfortunately for Boeing and your argument, the VERY next sentences in the same paragraph and paragraph that follows also add:
-----------
If there is no stated objective and, depending on substantiating rationale, positive consideration will be provided when the specified capability above the KPP threshold is viewed as advantageous to the Government.

b.All SRD requirements in paragraphs 2.2.1.2a through 2.2.1.2e below that are not KPP thresholds are desired, but are considered part of the offeror's design trade space. For non-KPP requirements, the Government may give consideration for alternate proposed solutions or capabilities below the stated SRD requirement, depending on substantiating rationale. [and here comes Boeing’s 767 downfall…] The Government may give additional consideration if the offeror proposes to meet (or exceed if there is an objective) the SRD threshold or requirement, depending on substantiating rationale.
---------
And in those paragraphs that follow (2.2.1.2a through 2.2.1.2e) includes a reference (#1 priority) to the refueling capability (again that are NOT KPP thresholds (and therefore can be given credit for exceeding):
---------
a. Aerial Refueling: The Government will evaluate the offeror's approach to meeting requirements related to aerial refueling. This evaluation will include: tanker aerial refueling, receiver aerial refueling, fuel offload versus radius range, drogue refueling systems (including simultaneous multipoint refueling), the operationally effective size of the boom envelope, the aerial refueling operator station and aircraft fuel efficiency.
---------
Therefore ANYTHING having to do with aerial refueling capability in the above paragraph (like, oh I don’t know, maybe fuel offload vs. radius range?), clearly opens the door to a larger aircraft if a larger aircraft provides a better capability.

BTW: This POV was pretty much put forth by Sue Payton this week in front of Boeing's proxy-arranged hearings in Congress, only she added that this was made clear to both competitors in meetings on several occasions as well.

Is that all ya' got?

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at April 6, 2008 12:50 AM


> The KC-767AT met or exceeded all performance
> criteria so it therefor MUST has met or exceeded
> the 7000' runway requirement...

lol, now i see where you're coming from

is that what's been confusing you this whole time?

well let me clarify

from the SRD:
3.2.1.1.4.1 - The KC-X shall be capable of operating from a 7,000 ft dry, hard-surface runway at sea level (THRESHOLD) using FAA ground rules.

3.2.1.1.4.2 - The KC-X should be capable of operating from a 7,000 ft dry, hard-surface runway at sea level at maximum weight for takeoff (OBJECTIVE) using FAA ground rules.

as you can see the only requirement is that it can takeoff in 7000'

sure the KC-767AT can do that . . . when it's empty

so yes it meets the requirement

the objective is that it can takeoff in 7000' at MTOW and so far i have seen zero evidence that it can do such a thing

Posted by: irtusk at April 5, 2008 11:33 PM


> That is the thing about getting your information from the internet (actually just about any source). You really SHOULD check the facts for yourself.

and where should i check the facts?

boeing's site seems like a fairly official source, no?

> unfortunately even many
> "Boeing sources" still use the old requirement
> data.

so what you're saying is that you have absolutely zero evidence that the KC-767AT can takeoff at MTOW from a 7000' runway

you said both the USAF & NG/EADS have said that it could, all i'm looking for is a reference to where they said it

Posted by: irtusk at April 5, 2008 11:28 PM


irtusk,

It helps to realize that the program to replace the KC-135s has been around since BEFORE 2006.

It is unfortunate that people working on public websites don't even take the time to use updated information.

That is the thing about getting your information from the internet (actually just about any source). You really SHOULD check the facts for yourself.

As I said, "The ability to take off at near maximum gross weights from an 8,000-foot runway" is an old (as in 20th century/Cold War) USAF (actually NATO "standard runway") requirement. It was used as the basis of the previous tanker lease requirements & unfortunately even many "Boeing sources" still use the old requirement data.

The KC-767AT met or exceeded all performance criteria so it therefor MUST has met or exceeded the 7000' runway requirement...

Posted by: pfcem at April 5, 2008 10:38 PM


> BOTH the USAF & NG/EADS have indicated that the
> KC-767AT can take-off from a 7000' runway with a
> full load of fuel.

link please?

> The "ability to take off at near maximum gross
> weights from an 8000-foot runway" comes from an
> old USAF requirement

do you have any, ah, evidence to support this claim?

the Boeing page seems fairly straightforward:
http://www.boeing.com/ids/globaltanker/usaf/KC_767/performance.html

"The ability to take off at near maximum gross weights from an 8,000-foot runway"

a plain reading indicates that that is it's capability

if you have some evidence to the contrary, by all means please share

Posted by: irtusk at April 5, 2008 07:00 PM


SMSgt Mac,

Like I said, I can't help it if Boeing has come up with the same arguments as I have.

Boeing has submitted additioal documents as additiaon evidence is found in the MOUNTAINS of documents made available to it after the decision debreifing.

Boeing HAS made a strong case to the GAO (Much stronger than you have any idea since you have not seen the actual 133 page protest document nor the FOUR additional protest documents. Boeing IS letting the facts speak for themselves but it is informing the public of the facts instead of letting the blaitantly false NG/EADS PR campaign fool the public.

Oh goody I have been just waiting for the right opportunity to bring this up...

See Figure 3.1 from the SRD: the THRESHOLD (3.2.1.1.1.1) for Fuel Offload vs. Radius Range runs from 117,000 lbs @ 500nm to 20,000 lbs @ 2500nm. The OBJECTIVE (3.2.1.1.1.2) is simply to exceed that. Clearly that is an indication for the desire for a "medium" tanker as opposed to a "large" tanker or the THRESHOLD would have been higher (both lbs & distance) & an indication of some desired OBJECTIVE even higher would have been indicated.

In laymens terms THRESHOLD is the MINIMUM requirement & OBJECTIVE is the MAXIMUM requirement. In other words the THRESHOLD is the MINIMUM being asked for & the OBJECTIVE is the MAXIMUM hoped for. Just one of the many things which makes the KC-X RFP/SRD rather odd is that typically the THRESHOLD is something believed to be obtainable & the OBJECTIVE is more of a "pie in the sky" that is quite difficult to achieve. But with the KC-X BOTH teams handily exceeded the Fuel Offload vs. Radius Range THRESHOLD (which everyone who knew anything about it knew they would) & the OBJECTIVE was in essence not even give since it was simply to exceed the THRESHOLD. The RFP/SRD is also VERY vague about airlift capability (cargo capacity) as well. I could go on & on but no doubt most anything/everything I mention one could possibly find where Boeing stated similar...

Posted by: pfcem at April 5, 2008 06:28 PM


irtusk,

Get your facts straight. BOTH the USAF & NG/EADS have indicated that the KC-767AT can take-off from a 7000' runway with a full load of fuel.

No doubt you are just ignorant & have no desire to discover the truth because it would debunk your precious (although incorrect) argument. But I will enlighten you. The "ability to take off at near maximum gross weights from an 8000-foot runway" comes from an old USAF requirement. Even the KC-767 Tanker Transport Aircraft (essentially a 767-200ER with an auxiliary fuel tank to bring total fuel capacity up from ~160,000 lbs/24,000 gal to ~202,000 lbs/30,150 gal & became the KC-767A for Italy & Japan) exceeded that requirement (but would not quite meet the 7000' KC-X objective) & as I know you are fully aware the KC-767AT Boeing proposed for the KC-X contract is not the same aircraft. It has higher lift wings/flaps & engines with greater thrust.

Posted by: pfcem at April 5, 2008 05:42 PM


RE: I can't help it if what Boeing is saying (or has said) is pretty much the same as what I had concluded BEFORE they said it. Go ahead check for yourself. I have been saying this BEFORE it was "released" by Boeing.

I wasn't referring to their 'protest' 'summary' as a standalone. I am stating you haven't said anything that didn't come out of the mouth of a Boeing representative or Boeing shill. the statement still stands.

RE: And no I do not work for Boeing & do not have access to any "confidential" sources that would allow me to see what is to be released before it is released.

RE: By the way, Boeing plans to file a fourth supplemental protest document today [April 4]. So in addition to the full 133 page protest document you have not seen, Boeing has (or will counting the latest) submitted four ADDITIONAL protest documents with ADDITIONAL evidence of its claims.

Translation: Boeing has been fishing for any possible controversey in their target areas to build a public case since they have no technical one.

Doesn't the fact that Boeing is making their case more in the public eye and is laying it on thicker than ANY protest the world has ever seen speak volumes to you? If Boeing had a strong case to provide the GAO, they would have done so, made the obligatory public statement and then stood back to let the facts speak for themselves. Instead, they opened with a PR campaign to get Congress to intervene and followed it up with a dog-and-pony show 'protest' to provide cover for the maneuver. For the record. they have not given ANY evidence in support of their claims: only more claims to pile on earlier claims.

They can revise and update the 'protest' all they want and all they're doing is putting a different dress on the same dog.

Tell you what. Provide any data that gives their contention that the KC-45 'excess' capability shouldn't have been counted and I'll slap it down using the RFP. Oh wait. I just did that at my place in 'Part III'.
Pick another key Boeing 'allegation' (don't waste our time with one of the minor supporting arguments) then: I'll smack it down too right after I finish with their 'wrong size' BS.

Yes, that is part one of the challenge. Part two is stop regurgitating unsupported Boeing claims as fact until you respond to part one ;-)

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at April 5, 2008 05:42 PM


> The KC-30 DOES NOT have greater indurance.

bald face LIE

> It is the tanker that can operate from smaller
> airfields which is more flexible because it can
> not only operate from larger airfields but it can
> operate from smaller airfields also

advantage KC-30 which can fly out of shorter fields

Posted by: irtusk at April 5, 2008 05:34 PM


JJ,

You are WAY off the mark. The KC-30 is not THAT much better than the KC-767AT at unloading fuel at a given range. In a oversimplitic 1-vs-1 comparison from a base which both can operate with max fuel the difference while not insignificant is not HUGE & the lbs of fuel difference actually SHRINKS as distance increases due to the KC-30's higher fuel consumption). But when you look at how tankers are actually employed in operations that comparision is only one of MANY factors.

The KC-30 DOES NOT have greater indurance. It carries more fuel but also burns more fuel. Commercial 767-200ER with ~160,000 lbs/24,000 gal of fuel has essentially the same range (various sources give different numbers but they are within 2.5%) as the commercial A330-200 with ~245,000 lbs/36,750 gal of fuel. The KC-767AT carries more than 200,000 lbs/30,000 gal of fuel...

Some more interesting facts. Average fuel offload per sortie. One thing to keep in mind is that the KC-135s need to be replaced because they are old & worn out, NOT because they can not offload enough fuel...

Operation Desert Storm: 47,500 lbs
Operation Allied Force: 48,700 lbs
Operation Enduring Freedom: 75,400 lbs
Operation Iraqi Freedom: 60,800 lbs

Yes operating from smaller airfields is a HUGE advantage. It is the tanker that can operate from smaller airfields which is more flexible because it can not only operate from larger airfields but it can operate from smaller airfields also. Operating from smaller airfields closer to action saves HUGE amounts of fuel & time... And it is not just being able to operate from smaller airfields but also being able to operate in larger numbers (or taking up less space) at any given airfield.

Yes the operating from closer airfields & consuming less fuel DOES negate or reverse fuel capacity advantage. The fuel offload difference between the KC-767AT & KC-30 is not THAT big to begin with (we are not talking KC-135 vs KC-10 here) & it get SMALLER the longer they are in the air. To see how fuel consumption makes a difference just compare the KC-135R to the KC-135A (yes the R carries a bit more fuel than the A but it can offload MORE than just the capacity increase). For distance take a look at the fuel offload at range for ANY tanker & see how greater range effects how much fuel can be offloaded.

Posted by: pfcem at April 5, 2008 05:17 PM


> . The KC-767AT can operate from smaller airfields closer to the action

in fact this is often NOT TRUE

namely its takeoff performance SUCKS

and thus needs a long runway that often isn't available

Posted by: irtusk at April 5, 2008 09:32 AM


"The only real advantage the KC-30 has is in cargo capacity which IS NOT the primary job of a tanker."

The real advantage of the KC-30 is in range offload - how much fuel it can offload a given distance from its base. The KC-30 is FAR better than the KC-767 at this, and this IS the primary job of a tanker. The KC-30 also has a better overall endurance, meaning it can fly to its refueling orbit and loiter there for longer than the KC-767. Better overall endurance also means the KC-30 is better at escorting fighters across the ocean than the KC-767 (which would have to be refueled itself more often than the KC-30 in this role) and also better at refueling strategic bombers and strategic airlift on long-range missions.

You say the KC-767AT can operate from smaller airfields closer to the action. That is not necessarily an advantage - you want to put short-range tactical aircraft (fighters, A-10s) close to the action, not tankers. This is especially true in places like the Middle East where basing is limited close to the action. A tanker that can operate from more distant bases is more flexible (you don't HAVE to put it forward) and thus more desirable in a lot of scenarios. Also, as I said, there are a lot of scenarios (refueling long-range bomber and strategic airlift missions, escorting fighters across the ocean) where the range advantage of the KC-330 over the KC-767 is critically important.

Last but not least, the ability of the KC-767 to operate from smaller bases does NOT, in fact, "negate or reverse the KC-30 fuel capacity advantage". The KC-30 is just not so much larger than the KC-767 that this would be true. The KC-330 would be able to refuel more fighters per day than the KC-767, even when operating from more distant bases.

Posted by: JJ at April 4, 2008 09:25 PM



"Best assault rifle:"
No-one outside of the US (and few inside) who know about small arms well even thinks of the M16 if asked about top 10 assault rifles of the world. Ask them about mediocre ones and you might hear that type.
Superior examples: HK416, FN SCAR, G36E
-G36? Are you serious? There are issues with the G36, like the receiver cracking. The SCAR isn't out yet, and the HK416 is a limited production weapon. M16 variants are in service with UK, Israeli and other special forces units. I wouldn't argue that it is the best assault weapon, however. Guys like Larry Vickers have said that the more they learn about their business the more they respect the AK-47. I'll take the man's word on it.
The SCAR, while being built by FN is being developed where? Oh yeah, here in the US.

"Best tank: not american
Wow, ever heard of Leopard2 winning in all trials against Leclerq, Challenger2 and Abrams? Abrams is not competitive due to its engine. It can only be sold to the closest "friends" that pay with U.S. military aid dollars (Egypt) or buy American arms to pay for protection (Saudis).
-What does that have to do with being the best. The two combat proven and best tanks are the M1A1/A2 and the Challenger II. The Leopard 2 doesn't even have true Chobam armor. Abrams is not competitive to be sold on the open market, but that does not mean it isn't the best.
Not to mention the German government has been selling Leopards at fire sale prices...even then Australia picked the M1A1.

"Best AT weapon: not American
Kornet>Hellfire,
Spike>Javelin/TOW,
RPG-29>M3 and AT-4 (which are Swedish in origin anyways)
-Kornet better than Hellfire? Only if you're smoking crack.
Spike may be better than Javelin IF you only count the long range version. TOW is long in the tooth and the fire and forget mode of the Spike-ER theoretically makes it better than TOW.

"Best Airdefense system: not American
When talking about Air defense, almost everyone thinks of land-based AD first (and Aegis has its serious shortcomings anyway).
Russians are way ahead in long-range air defense and the U.S. has no modern short-range SAM at all (only the ManPads Stinger that's not better than Starstreak2).
-Almost everyone isn't everyone. And please, school me on the shortcomings of Aegis.
The Russians are not ahead in long-range air defense. Just because the US does not advertise our abilities does not mean the US is somehow lagging. And the Russians are known for over-selling their gear to get foreign sales. I'll stick with THAAD, Patriot, SL-AMRAAM, and Avenger.
Starstreak better than Stinger. I should hope so, it came out twenty years afterwards.
But you said air defense system. When you talk about a system designed for air defense you have to talk about Aegis, it's the gold standard.

Best howitser: not American
Neither nor. U.S. 155mm guns of WW2 were pretty good. Quality of employment is worth a long debate. Let's say that U.S. artillery has yet to prove itself under ammunition shortage conditions.
-*Cough*Bastogne*Cough*
Ammunition shortage conditions, what a bunch of crap. You think that all batteries get all the ammo they can handle? No.
To which 155 are you referring the Long Tom or the M114?
The best US piece of WWII is the M7 Priest. Not the biggest, but mobile. And that's what really counted.
"Do i need to continue?
-You shouldn't. You embarrass yourself."

Stop staring at the mirror, the monitor is straight ahead.

Posted by: DopplerDave at April 4, 2008 05:32 PM


Christopher Lozaga,

The KC-767AT is a superior KC-135 replacement to the KC-30. The KC-767AT can operate from smaller airfields closer to the action which combined with its significatnly better "fuel mileage" negates & even reverses the KC-30 fuel capacity advantage.

The only real advantage the KC-30 has is in cargo capacity which IS NOT the primary job of a tanker. But even as a cargo carrier the KC-767AT is a major improvement over the KC-135.

KC-135
080 passengers
024 patients
006 463L pallets

KC-767AT
190 passengers (= 2.375 KC-135)
108 patients (= 4.5 KC-135)
019 463L pallets (= 3.17 KC-135)

The KC-X is SUPPOSED to be a tanker which is sometimes used to cary some cargo NOT a cargo carrier that is sometimes used as a tanker...


***


pas,

For the benefit of the warfighter we need get politics out of defence procurement to get them what the Air Force felt was the best plane - the KC-767. :)

Posted by: pfcem at April 4, 2008 04:26 PM


SMSgt Mac,

I can't help it if what Boeing is saying (or has said) is pretty much the same as what I had concluded BEFORE they said it. Go ahead check for yourself. I have been saying this BEFORE it was "released" by Boeing. And no I do not work for Boeing & do not have access to any "confidential" sources that would allow me to see what is to be released before it is released.

By the way, Boeing plans to file a fourth supplemental protest document today [April 4]. So in addition to the full 133 page protest document you have not seen, Boeing has (or will counting the latest) submitted four ADDITIONAL protest documents with ADDITIONAL evidence of its claims.

Posted by: pfcem at April 4, 2008 03:23 PM


ST. LOUIS,-- While the U.S. Air Force awarded a contract to build the next aerial refueling airplane to the team of Northrop Grumman and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), Air Force evaluators found the Boeing KC-767 Advanced Tanker offers more mission capability and has a better chance of surviving combat than the larger Northrop-EADS KC-30 tanker.


--------------------------------------------------


So now they are saying that a 767 is better at surviving COMBAT than an A330 - well gee lets look at all the tankers that have been shot down.ever.

Posted by: Harlequin at April 4, 2008 02:58 PM


"You'll have to run two tool kits at all bases and all mobility kits,"

Oh gee, the Air Force has NEVER had more than one type of fighter at the same time... or more than one type of bomber... or more than one type of tanker... or more than one type of cargo aircraft... they just don't know how to do that! Too hard, unthinkable!

"Again Airbus aircraft will be built using the metric measurement system, so this will lead to all kinds of problems, accidents and maybe deaths, because someone messed up and selected a wrong size/measurement, also this will increase the supply inventory."

Gee, then this deadly threat also exists for the 767, which is partly built in Italy and Japan (both of which use the metric system).

How often do we hear of commercial airliners crashing because the airline in question has a mixed fleets of Boeing and Airbus aircraft, as many airlines do, and mixed up metric and english parts? Answer, never, because this problem simply does not exist. How often do we hear of Boeing aircraft - which have many, many European and Asian-built components - crashing because of a mixup between the metric and the english system? Again, never, because this "problem" is a bunch of baloney.

"do you really image that the parts will be shipped over and then 10,000s of American workers will build an aircraft, or what the reality will be is it will be built overseas, by other nations citizens and then flown over (maybe "green") and American workers will put the FINISHING touches on the aircraft. "

That "reality" is precisely how Boeing intends to build the 787 and all its future commercial aircraft. But now Boeing wants to wrap itself in the American flag and tell us to "buy American". What amazing hypocrisy!

"when there is an American system/platform which meets &/or exceeds all criteria (& in fact is arguably superior to any foreign system/platform)..."

The 767 is clearly NOT superior to any foreign system / platform! It is a piece of garbage from the 1970s, not some brand new cutting-edge technology, fer chrissake.

"the US government will be help enabling EADS/Airbus in their efforts to build civilian A330 assembly plants in the US - thus helping a foreign company (partly owned by foreign governmetns) compete better in the US against America's only civilian (and privately owned) aircraft company."

Boeing outsources a lot of its production to Japan and China, where the aviation industries are either government-owned or heavily government-subsidized, so it is entirely disingenuous to represent Boeing as a "privately-owned company" not beholden to any foreign government. For example, the Japanese government covered about half of the costs of developing parts built by the Japanese companies for the Boeing 767, and the Japanese government spent ~$500 million to help Japanese companies develop parts for the 777. Boeing is even more beholden to foreign governments for support in building the 787. So, when the US government buys the 767, it is helping Japanese industries compete better against American industries.

"if and when future war happens with the EU, the US will be screwed for not buying domestically when Airbus, as the war's enemy, cuts all supply. (And I work for one of Boeing's competitors.)"

ROFLMAO!!! What a preposterous scenario. Hey, you realize we won't be able to use the F-35, either, since those aircraft are going to have a significant European content? And you realize we will also be screwed on parts for our Boeing aircraft, since Boeing buys billions of dollars worth of parts from Europe every year?

Posted by: Lugo at April 4, 2008 01:09 PM


@ WR: a future war between u.s. and eu? i dunno what u take but take less!

im sure u.s. airforce has good reasons to chose airbus over boeing: airforce wants airbus because its the better plane (tanker can be converted into freighter) with more value for taxmoney and it will be build on american soil by u.s. workers: sounds like a win-win-situation to me... and dont cry for boeing, the 787 dreamliner is a winner...

Posted by: old europe at April 4, 2008 11:34 AM


Unlike Irtusk and a few others, pfcern is the one that make the simplest and most sense and has the greatest unadulterated basis. Being an engineer, I assert and maintain that what he says is NOT Boeing propaganda but has a sound logistical and engineering basis. Further, if and when future war happens with the EU, the US will be screwed for not buying domestically when Airbus, as the war's enemy, cuts all supply. (And I work for one of Boeing's competitors.)

Posted by: WR at April 4, 2008 11:01 AM


One concern one could have about Air Force Tankers partially assembled/tested/finalized in former East Germany is that the work force there may not be as carefully scrutinized re security concerns as compared to the whole process taking place in the United States, but maybe this is a non-issue.

Posted by: Michael Volk at April 4, 2008 10:01 AM


PFCEM,

Bottomline...Boeing DID accept the playing field and in doing so made certain assumptions that were incorrect which lead to them losing the proposal.

For the benefit of the warfighter we need to move forward get them what the Air Force felt was the best plane

Posted by: pas at April 4, 2008 07:15 AM


I think that all of the metrics are balogne and the procurement team simply looked at politics. They are picking the larger aircraft, because they know that Congress will inevitably cut the procurement target well below what the USAF needs.

Eventually the Air Force would like to replace all 600 or so tankers. What is the actual likely hood of Congress approving this over the next 20 years, given parallel procurement of the 2018 bomber, F-35, etc.

If congress cuts off the KC-X program at say, 400 tankers, and the military had chosen the smaller 767 tanker, the AF would he royally screwed. With the A330, they would only badly screwed.

I had a similar suspicion with the CSAR-X decision, the military is simply afraid they will not get the numbers of aircraft they need, so they go with the craft with longest range and capability.

Posted by: Christopher Lozaga at April 4, 2008 02:24 AM


What's with all the apocalyptic moanings about using the KC-30? It's the same type of inaccurate pessimistic groaning that says American manufacturing is dead (which is alive and well) and there is nothing worth buying overseas. It's inaccurate and damaging to everyone to carry on like that.

I'm in the USAF and I'm looking forward to the KC-45 - it will be a credit to the service and a great airplane.

And Boeing is not going to fold because of it. In terms of Boeing and Airbus, the USAF tanker order is not that big. United Airlines alone has a bigger heavy-haul fleet than this order, and after you subtract the take of the myraid of militay subcontractors (mostly American in this case!) the final take-home pay for the airframe manufacturer is a pittance. And the delivery schedule of one airframe per month is not enough to keep any widebody production line open if it is the only thing it has going, which is the case for the 767.

And I live here in Boeingland and home of the 767, and my advice for my friends working on the 767 line is simple - projects come and go. If the 767 goes, then find the next project that replaces it (cough*787*cough). Gone is the day of single-position employment for 30 years - people must be adaptable in the global economy. It is in that process you become a better worker and more valuable asset to the country.

Posted by: Smith at April 3, 2008 09:00 PM


C'mon guys - defense is global. We rent AN-172s for transport, our handguns are FN designs, the M777 (which, by the way, is the best 155 in the field) was British in origin, as was the Mustang, angled decks on aircraft carriers, and GCA landing systems, the AT-4, which the Marines love, is Swedish, and so on.

The crux of the matter is - NG won the competition, after a fair contest, and the Air Force needs the tankers now. We need to shut up and build. Period. End of report.

Posted by: GJP at April 3, 2008 05:38 PM


For Sale: a SIG 552 in well kept condition. reason for sale: inferior to a m-16.
Buy a hundred and i throw in a BIL agtm system, a Leopard 2A6, some Merkavas and a S-300 airdefense sytem.

Posted by: Solifugid at April 3, 2008 04:36 PM


I better don't reply to pfcem, as he's 150% biased - his statements are almost predictable (except the invented arguments, of course).

I'll rather have fun with a reply to DopplerDave:

"Best assault rifle:"
No-one outside of the US (and few inside) who know about small arms well even thinks of the M16 if asked about top 10 assault rifles of the world. Ask them about mediocre ones and you might hear that type.
Superior examples: HK416, FN SCAR, G36E

"Best tank: not american
-Last I checked the M1A2 is American. The Challenger II is tied with it."

Wow, ever heard of Leopard2 winning in all trials against Leclerq, Challenger2 and Abrams? Abrams is not competitive due to its engine. It can only be sold to the closest "friends" that pay with U.S. military aid dollars (Egypt) or buy American arms to pay for protection (Saudis).

"Best AT weapon: not American
-Hellfire? American. TOW? American. Javelin? American."
Kornet>Hellfire,
Spike>Javelin/TOW,
RPG-29>M3 and AT-4 (which are Swedish in origin anyways)

"Best Airdefense system: not American
-Aegis? American."

When talking about Air defense, almost everyone thinks of land-based AD first (and Aegis has its serious shortcomings anyway).
Russians are way ahead in long-range air defense and the U.S. has no modern short-range SAM at all (only the ManPads Stinger that's not better than Starstreak2).

Best howitser: not American
-Probably not. Our guns have almost always been inferior in some way, but our employment has been superior.

Neither nor. U.S. 155mm guns of WW2 were pretty good. Quality of employment is worth a long debate. Let's say that U.S. artillery has yet to prove itself under ammunition shortage conditions.

"Do i need to continue?
-You shouldn't. You embarrass yourself."

Stop staring at the mirror, the monitor is straight ahead.

Posted by: Sven Ortmann at April 3, 2008 04:31 PM


Rarely mentioned:
1) The USAF tanker people have long established supply lines, contacts, and processes with Boeing. EADS does not. Not to mention that the NG/EADS duo thing may complicate this.

2) In the process of this, the US government will be help enabling EADS/Airbus in their efforts to build civilian A330 assembly plants in the US - thus helping a foreign company (partly owned by foreign governmetns) compete better in the US against America's only civilian (and privately owned) aircraft company. This is a bit of an annoying side effect for many. I personally support this deal only if all foreign governments were to divest all their shares in EADS/Airbus and stop directly pouring money into their civilian programs (at least as directly as they've been doing...)

Posted by: nb at April 3, 2008 04:23 PM


> he said he THINKS it's inevitable

Your right, Program managers/VP's dont just say things like that without a good reason. Now do they?

> odd or not, it doesn't matter what he thinks, only what he can convince the AF to go along with

Sure, but you could actually answer the question. Its a usefull line of thought. Of course its easy to make the AF go along with your wishes when you are the sole suplier.

Posted by: NTV at April 3, 2008 04:16 PM


pfcem -
I'm still waiting for you to say ANYTHING (opinion, analyses, reference) that isn't part of a Boeing PR release. No matter how many times you say it - it doesn't make it true: it is still JUST, (now I repeat!) JUST Boeing propaganda.

The KC767 Boeing proposed for the competition HASN'T been built yet. Other configurations have been but th KC-X proposal IS a unique configuration. Look it up and get over the frustration(Hope your eyes are still all right)

PS: Would it be too much to ask DT to NOT post these red meat pieces before the working stiffs get off work? ;-)

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at April 3, 2008 04:09 PM