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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Robot Targets Men in Iraq

predator-balad.jpg

Yesterday afternoon we ran a story on Military.com about a U.S. drone strike that killed four Shiite "militants" in Basra.

An unmanned U.S. drone fired two Hellfire missiles at militants attacking Iraqi soldiers in a Shiite militia stronghold in the southern city of Basra on Wednesday, killing four of the gunmen, the military said.

The airstrike in Basra occurred about 1 a.m. after militiamen attacked an Iraqi army patrol with rocket-propelled grenades on the eastern side of the Hayaniyah district, the U.S. military said. A vehicle suspected of containing more weapons and ammunition also was destroyed.

To me this strike seemed interesting for it's "close air support" flavor. Up until only recently, the armed Predators and Reapers have been used primarly for strategic and infrastructure strikes. We all know about drones going after HVTs in a "surgical" hit, but this time it seems they were used to support Iraqi troops on the ground.

We also saw reports of drones being used in this way during last week's fighting in Sadr City.

Does this signal a paradigm shift in the use of combat drones? I'd be interested to know what the coordination for CAS is with this kind of asset -- what's the response time? Seems to me it's a good idea in a place where US assets are thinly distributed like Basra. And as the US withdraws more and more troops over the coming years, we could see a lot more of this kind of drone-kills-man scenario.

-- Christian

Comments

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"The Fighter Pilot Generals have become the Battleship Admirals of the 21st century."

Quote of the day, Sir!

Posted by: Grandjester at April 18, 2008 10:13 PM


Perhaps I've mis-stated. I LOVE THE idea of ROBOT attack aircraft that can be sent into very hot LZ's. However, I still strongly believe in the Mk 1 Eyeball and the processor that contains it to make final decisions!

I do not want or think anyone should EVER eliminate "ON SITE" TAQ AIR! It takes a very certain type of individual to fly those missions. Few have ever met them. They are as close to gods as you will find in uniform.

Perhaps, the idea of keeping an A-10 type AC in service to follow-on observation, after some of the heat is reduced, and a evaluator and gunship is needed on site, might be a way to go. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. Others, way smarter than I, will make those decisions.

I only hope that the decision is REALLY based upon what is the very best for our forces rather that an upcomming RETIREMENT JOB! We've seen so often in this "system" where "leaders" suddenly find jobs at the XYZ company or a nice CD shows up in their name at some bank! THAT isn't service, it's treason for personal profit.

I believe it PROFIT for we live in a Capitolist type economy and it's the best in the world! However, when someone is willing to sacrifice his honor for personal profit and looses his perspective, as we have seen so many times, it's our kids that will die to pay his country club membership.

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JD

Posted by: Jeff Dulin at April 18, 2008 09:01 PM


The reality is that UAVs are taking over the close air support and aerial reconnaissance roles.

Defense budget will soon follow that fact.

If the USAF brass does not head these trends off and fast, their existance as a seperate service is at stake.

Previously, the USAF was arguing that jet fighters with JDAM bombs could replace US Army tube and rocket artillary.

That was tried and failed at Tora Bora in Afghanistan.

The arrival of the Guided MLRS and Excalibur 155mm guided shells has turned that debate on its head. US Army artillery with PGMs and UAV support is cheaper and more tactically useful than jets in urban combat.

The arrival of GPS fuzes for tube artillery is less than 18 months away, which will make every US Army artillery shell "smart."

Consider this passage from strategypage.com about the 2006 history of close air support in Iraq.

"Note that the air force only dropped 177 smart bombs in Iraq last year, and only fired 52 Hellfire (from Predators) or Maverick missiles. Activity is up this year, but still minuscule compared to past wars. So every smart bomb or missile counts, and accuracy is very important. Meanwhile, army and marine helicopters fired ten times as many missiles, as well as over 10,000 70mm unguided rockets and over 10 million rounds of cannon and machine-gun ammunition. This year, the air forces is using a lot more Maverick missiles, and is borrowing laser guided versions from the navy."

at this link:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20070820.aspx

The USAF has to get UAV control ASAP, or it never will. If it does not, it will lose the close air support and tactical recce missions with the budget$ that go with them.

This current fight between the USAF and the Army over the procurement and control of the next generation of Predator/Reaper drones is just the latest institutional skirmish in this turf war.

See this link:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20070702.aspx

and this text about the turf fights over air traffic control over the battle field:

"You Can't Take The Sky From Me

July 2, 2007: The battle, between the U.S. Army and Air Force, over who controls the air space over the battlefield, continues to heat up. What's happened, in effect, is that that, because of UAVs and smart bombs, most of the aircraft over the battlefield belong to the army. As a result, the army wants to have control over that air space, even though, traditionally, the air force has been in charge. The army is pushing the fact that most of the aerial vehicles (UAVs, helicopters, artillery shells, rockets) at low altitudes (under 20,000 feet) are army. For example, the army currently has over 1,300 UAVs in Iraq, over 200 helicopters, and dozens of rocket launchers and 155mm guns. In effect, over 95 percent of the aircraft at low altitudes belong to the army. It makes no sense to have the air force calling the shots. To handle all this traffic, the army has developed an air traffic control system (TAIS, or Tactical Airspace Integration System) which uses a laptop screen to show all air traffic in a several hundred square kilometer area. TAIS systems cost about $3 million each, and draws data from many sources, to allow army commanders to have a 3-D view of what's up there. The army has TAIS link to air force ATC (air traffic control), but the air force attitude is that they have always called the shots over who does what up there, and that's the way it should stay."

This is a very wise comment I was sent on the USAF versus US Army UAV debate. People would do well to think on it:

"One reason manned aircraft are so expensive is that they have to come back to base, and bring the expensive and hard-to-replace pilot back with it. Making the aircraft survivable enough to bring back the pilot also makes it robust enough to upgrade, and keep it flying for decades. Cf. B-52.

Expensive, long-lived aircraft demand officers in command. Yet even the USAF is starting to think of NCO UAV pilots. You only need video game skills because your ass isn't on the line. The cheaper the vehicle, the less likely it will be an officers-only toy.

The only exception is in mass-casualty situations, like the RAF in WW2, where they had lots of Flight Sergeants flying the same aircraft as officers. But with an expected lifetime of about a half-dozen missions, why make someone "an officer and a gentleman", especially if they come from the lower classes?

The cheaper and more common UAVs become, the more they will be flown by NCO Bubba, and not some Academy grad. It also means flying no longer becomes the preferred career path in the Service that exists to fly. Gold-plated UAVs that cost as much as manned aircraft help to postpone that day.

Technology long ago put armored vehicles and artillery in the hands of the EM. Officers can advance by leading large numbers of these EM-piloted vehicles, but they don't need any special skill of their own to "fly" one. Fighter pilots see themselves as the last armored knights on their costly steeds. As with the old mounted aristocracy, they'd rather fight other aristocrats than support the commoner scum on the ground.

If they can't stop the UAV, they can at least gold-plate it, and try to control every last one out there, even the overgrown RC model in some E-4s backpack. UAVs in the hands of ground forces such as Army and Marines are as much a threat to the pilot/aristocrat as the musket was to the knight. We know how that one ended.

If the Air Force wants to keep the silk-scarf fraternity functioning, they need to look down the road another 20 years, and find a niche that won't be filled soon by remotely-piloted vehicles. Perhaps they shouldn't bank so much on the F-22 and F-35 (fewer will be needed as UCAV capabilities increase), and go back to concepts of the early 1960s of manned orbital/suborbital strike/recon."

Smart betting men will not place their chips behind the Fighter Pilot generals.

The Fighter Pilot Generals have become the Battleship Admirals of the 21st century.

Posted by: Trent Telenko at April 18, 2008 04:33 PM


Dear Sir: Thanks to Bush who is a CIA officer like his father and his brother we have enemies all over the world thanks to our elected officials who had no idea on how to do their job. They had all the time in the world to come up with a common decent way of dealing with 9-11. Bush has lied to us from day one. He came to office with an agenda to find a way to steal Iraq's oil. He thinks inside every Iraqi is an American who wants to be a Republican to get out. We have defeat Iraq before we fired our first bombs. The US Army orders was to pacify Iraq to make them love us. We are spending 2 million dollars to kill a bunch of goat herders sitting in a $500 dollar house, who are having tea wondering when Bush is leaving. Bush is not leaving until he gets his cut from Iraqi oil. Like Allen Dulles,who had learned how to hide all of the wealth he stole from all of Europe and the Nazi Vatican Ratline. Both him and his brother stole from America during the Savings and Loans Industry but was never prosecutected from all the companies he deliberatly bankrupted where he ended up with stealing all of the investers money.
Considering their relation with Kuwait, I would not be suprized if Bush and Cheny as a gold mine their in Kuwaits Banks just waiting for him to come out of the White House. His Presidency was about a bankrobbery of this nations treaury by using his powers as the President and who is a member of the CIA who can transferee the gold to other banks protected by the Bush clan CIA.

Posted by: matt hood at April 18, 2008 12:55 PM


I honestly believe we need to build more A-10's. It's a fantastic aircraft for ground support of all kinds as well as the SAR mission.
I would even go so far as to say if the Air Force doesn't want to keep them around let Army aviators have them. Yep the Army supporting the Army just as the Apache does now. Of course the Air Force would never go for that but I believe it would work very well.

Posted by: Gunner at April 18, 2008 12:26 PM


wpnexp,

Funny name, since you didn't get my point. F-35 is uneeded for many reason, but my point was about how unnecessary it is in the close support role, which pred/reap is great for (yes Ed, I agree, NOTHING matches the A-10 but they wont last forever OR re-open the line and with HiDef imaging upgrades, they will be better than a pilots eyes) and CAS usually takes place after Air superiority and SEAD have been achived. Again, placing these assest DIRECTLY under the control of the ground commanders makes the most sense.

Posted by: Grandjester at April 18, 2008 09:08 AM


I think its awesome that an article like this for an unmanned air vehicle is praised as a breakthrough in modern warfare, but the second you put it on the ground it becomes some terrible nightmare. What is up with that?

I am all for putting more distance between our service members and danger. The Reaper/Predator program is making great strides in the unmanned combat arena. Hopefully John Q Public will see that providing our military with these types of tools will do more to support our troops than those "support your troops" ribbon stickers that are so popular.

Posted by: Kale at April 18, 2008 08:51 AM


Grandjester and Skinner,

Don't think we will be seeing Predators down many enemy fighters, more like the other way around, they are very vulnerable to enemy aircraft and SAMs, which we haven't seen in Iraq, but we may see in another war soon. Even if no pilot is lost when a Predator is shot down, they are expensive as well and we can't afford to have many of them shot out of the sky. The F-35 will also carry a much larger and more varied payload. Trust me, the F-35 is needed more than ever as the F-22 is not being bought in the numbers it should be.

Posted by: wpnexp at April 18, 2008 08:33 AM


I agree. Further development of this type of close air support system is a great way to go. Eliminating the pilot and replacing him with fuel, ordnance and reduced size gives a longer TOT at a what SHOULD be a lower cost. SHOULD but WON'T! The guys in charge of making sure the contractors make lot$ of MONEY will gold plate these things till they cost more than an F-22, you watch 'em!!

The Army SHOUULD take over some of this role also. Along with the Marines. After all, it is usually THEIR people who are being supported isn't it? The AF needs to take it's lead in Space, Fast Movers (for as long as they continue to exist) and Moving cargo/people. That's what they do best.

Perhaps a SWARM type of Attack/Defense system with these things would make future fighters obsolete, for any country. These could even, eventually, become fast enough to provide a missile defense if they could be placed in low orbit. (Screw the "treaty")

Pilots are good but the cost of the equipmet and the high loss/capture factor needs to be considered. The only thing I worry about is that the Army is full of ham handed generals that are NOT Aviators. They really never will understand the best employment of aviation assets because of thier attitudes toward pilots in general. It's always been that way. I also doubt that the A&D of these aircraft would be as good as if it were done by the Air Force. So far, they have done a really great job!


My Son is a an AF pilot and really is NOT going to appreciate me saying this but: GO ROBOT!

JD

Posted by: Jeff Dulin at April 18, 2008 08:26 AM


I saw a show on the Military channel about a Special Forces team that was discovered early in the war and had to be extracted. They were under attack by several hundred men and only through the efforts of the air force providing close air support did they make it out. There was so much one-on-one communications between the airmen and the ground forces to make split second decisions that only a live pilot could make. I don't think drones will ever totally replace live pilots.

Posted by: Rick, USA at April 18, 2008 08:19 AM


Hood Morning Folks,

I'm with you Grandjester. The longer it takes to bring on line there very expensive Air Force weapons systems (F-22's and F-35's) the more they are not needed.

Create a Defense Transport Command and let the Navy, Marines and Army provide and CONTROL there own air attack assets and let the Air Force slip in memory. The Navy has already seen the future with wanting to put UAV Squdrons on carriers by 2013.

The Air to Air imterceptor role, watch the X-47B in the next few months.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at April 17, 2008 01:41 PM


Damn,I thought this was the article about the Talon SWORDS robot that had to be shut down because it was aiming its weapon at its own men,shades of Skynet,my bad.

Posted by: Roy Smith at April 17, 2008 11:33 AM


These have been used for a while now in the Close Air Support role. They intended it for that role when they gave it lethality by arming it with a hellfire. The reaper is even more suited for such a role as it has a longer rnage and loiter time coupled with a heavier payload.

I must disagree with these being the replacement for the A-10. I know troops can trust a pilot's vision better than that of a UAV camera operator and this is crucial for close air support of the type the A-10 delivers to you.

These UAVs even uparmed to the extent you mention would be sitting ducks to a country with modern air defense capabilities, whereas an A-10 or F-35, they have reaction time that makes them far more suitable for this role than a slower UAV.

I do like the idea of using one or more of these as an armed escort for the V-22. That would enable the marines to not worry as much about the added weight and lowered payload that encompasses adding a self defense gun to the aircraft. Coupled by the enhanced sensors in a UAV, they would do much better, especially at night to fend off an ambush or enemy attacks in all conditions.

Posted by: Ed at April 17, 2008 11:04 AM


I was watching just this sort of operation in real time several months ago from Creech AFB, the center for UAV operations. You can read about it here:
http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/C1311122445/E20080222191015/index.html

Posted by: BWJones at April 17, 2008 10:29 AM


Goes to show that F-35 is completely unnecessary for the close support role. Give the Predators and Reapers to the Army already!

Posted by: Grandjester at April 17, 2008 08:53 AM


This could be a good opportunity to replace one of the best manned close air support aircraft, the A-10. Imagine a drone, with all its vunerable electronics, encased in some lightweight armor, like the A-10 titanium bath tub around the pilot. Mount a gun on the drone, and it could be just as deadly as an A-10. Even better yet, use a design similar to the Bell Eagle Eye tilt-rotor drone, and modify it with the lethal feature of the A-10. Then you would have a excellent CAS drone as well as a proper escort for the V-22 Osprey. I like the A-10, but the Airforce will not replace it properly, except with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which doesn't have the loiter time the A-10 has.

Posted by: Bill at April 17, 2008 08:38 AM


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