Subscribe via RSS

Archives by Date
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008

See all Archives
Archives by Category
'Canes
Afghan Update
Ammo and Munitions
Armor
Around the Globe
Av Week Extra
Axe in Iraq (and Elsewhere)
Bizarro
Blimps
Blog Bidness
Body Armor Blues
Bomb Squad
Brownshoes in Action
Bubbleheads, etc.
Cammo Green
Catch the "Buzz"
Chem-Bio
Civilian Apps
Cloak and Dagger
Commandos
Comms
Contingency Ops
Cops and Robbers
Cyber-warfare
Data Diving
Defense Tech Poll
Dissent Tech
Door Kickers
Drones
DT Administrivia
Eat DT's Dust
Extra! Extra!
Eye on China
Fast Movers
FCS Watch
Fire for Effect
FOS Files
Friday Funnies
Gadgets and Gear
Going Green
Grand Ole Osprey
Ground Vehicles
Guns
Homeland Security
In the Weeds with Eric
Info War
Iraq Diary
Jarhead Jazz
JSF Watch
Just War Theories
Lasers and Ray Guns
Less-lethal
Logistics
Los Alamos and Labs
M4 Monopoly
Medic!
Mercs
Missiles
Money Money Money
Most Wanted
MRAP Edge
Net-Centric
Nukes
Old Skool
Our Shrinking Planet
Planes, Copters, Blimps
Politricks
Polmar's Perspective
Popular Mechanics
Rapid Fire
Raptor Watch
Red Team
Retro-Futuro
Robots
Roll Your Own
Sabra Tech
Ships and Subs
Snipertech
Space
Special Ops
Star Wars
Strategery
Stray Trons
Tactical Development
Terror Tech
The Deadlies
The Defense Biz
The Peoples' Site
The Sunday Paper
The Tanker Tango
The View from Av Week
Those Nutty Norks
Training and Sims
Trimble on the Case
Video Lounge
War Update
Ward'z Wonderz
You can run...

See all Archives
Newsletters

Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Boeing and Air Force In Lovers Spat

kc-45-b1.jpg

A great analysis on the tanker deal from my old friend Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute who's name is "Mud" to pro-Boeing lawmakers...

If you want to understand how former allies end up going to war -- or former lovers end up getting divorced -- take a look at how Boeing and the Air Force are treating each other in their angry confrontation over the award of a next-generation tanker program to Northrop Grumman. Boeing expected to win the contract, and now finds itself facing the prospect of losing a 50-year aerial refueling franchise (and $100 billion in sales) while its main rival in the commercial airliner business sets up shop on Boeing's home turf. Boeing is convinced it should have won, and is spending millions of dollars on lawyers and advertising to press its case in a formal complaint to the Government Accountability Office.

Air Force leaders, on the other hand, believe that Boeing is willfully mis-stating the facts in a bid to obscure the inferior performance of the plane it proposed. A marathon session of Air Force acquisition experts two weeks ago concluded that none of the 200 issues raised by Boeing in its complaint to GAO was likely to be upheld, and that whatever minor problems the accountability office might uncover would be far from sufficient to overturn a competitive outcome the service says was not close. Beyond the merits of Boeing's case, Air Force officials are insulted by the tone of the company's public statements, which have used phrases such as "deeply flawed" and "severely prejudiced" to describe the tanker selection process.

The deterioration of Boeing's relationship with its biggest government customer hit a new low last week, when Air Force insiders began hinting darkly that the company had encouraged Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill to question the ethics of the service's chief of staff in a letter concerning an unrelated contracting matter. The notion that Boeing would do such a thing seems exceedingly unlikely, since the chief was widely believed to favor Boeing's tanker bid and the company's relationship with McCaskill is lukewarm at best (even though its defense unit is headquartered in her state). But the tone of Boeing's tanker campaign has led at least some service officials to believe the worst about the company, a feeling that is spreading far beyond tankers. For instance, the service has probably delayed announcing award of the GPS III satellite contract in part because it fears another Boeing protest.

What's fascinating about this confrontation is that the two parties embrace completely contradictory views of reality, and yet the partisans on each side are absolutely convinced that their version of the facts is the only true account. If there's anyone inside Boeing who thinks the tanker competition was rigorous and transparent, I can't find them. And if there's anyone inside the Air Force that thinks Boeing's protest has any merit, they're hiding from me. The stark difference in how the combatants see the same events seems more like a case study in Balkan politics than the button-down world of defense acquisition.

A sage observer of human nature commented in the Wall Street Journal some years ago that the great achievement of American capitalism was to channel impulses that led to rape and pillage during earlier civilizations into constructive forces for economic progress. That's an important insight, but sometimes in the rough and tumble of competition we see hints of how recently mankind emerged from the jungle. When rival cultures begin hating each other, their behavior can easily spill beyond the bounds of rationality. So Boeing and the Air Force need to catch their breath, tone down their rhetoric, and realize that they both still need each other to succeed.

And Reuters reports the same day Boeing exec agrees to shave down the "sharp elbows."

-- Christian

Comments

There is a very good reason all the recent Boeing contract awards have been contested by other firms.

It is straight from Military Procurement 101, “…recent contract performance on the same, or similar, products is a performance factor in the award of new contracts.”

In closely fought major defense procurements, the contract usually goes to the Defense contractor with the least issues with recent contract performance.

This is nothing new.

The award to Lockheed of the F-22 was heavily influenced by issues with contract performance by Northrop on the B-2 bomber program and McDonnell Douglas on the A-12 Avenger.

The word I had from engineers involved with the decision, about 7 years after the F22 award, was that the YF-23 was half a mach number faster in “super-cruise” performance than the F22, had 30db better all aspect stealth performance, and could do sustained supersonic turns. All things these are things that the F-22 cannot do. Yet the USAF went with the F-22 because it met the minimum contract requirements, and the execution of the F-22 design was seen as less of a risk, because of the then current performance of the YF-23 contractors on other stealth combat aircraft.

The Airbus tanker contract victory was a repetition of that same pattern.

Boeing was caught in corrupt business practices with senior civilian and uniformed USAF officials by Congressional investigators.

Boeing partisans are being disingenuous – at best – making their claims about the Airbus tanker deal when they have Defense Inspector General Joseph Schmitz’s report on the original tanker leaseing deal sitting on the desk of all the USAF officials who made the Airbus decision. Especially when former top Air Force contract negotiator and later Boeing executive Darleen Druyun and former Boeing Chief Financial Officer Michael Sears went to jail for playing favoritism games for Boeing when the previous contract was awarded.

Given what was in the Schmitz’s report, the wonder of the previous deal was that more Boeing and USAF officials didn’t go to jail.

The political appointees, civil servants and uniformed officers that replaced those corrupt USAF officials on the last deal were going to weight against Boeing in a very closely fought contract based on that bad past performence, if only to cover their career back sides.

That is the angle that is missing from all the reporting and debates here I have seen to date.

Reviewing the Schmitz’s report will provide all interested parties deep insight into the mind set of the current USAF officials who made the current Airbus decision.

Posted by: Trent Telenko at May 2, 2008 07:43 AM


The way things are going now, today, with the “talk” of the next generation bomber, the attitude of the A/F and those in charge of making the decisions on who gets the contracts, Boeing should send EADS/Airbus a congratulations letter for this next bomber.

Every contract Boeing has won recently has been or is being contested. That includes the new helicopter for the President and the SOS forces. The entire process should be examined from identification of specifications to source selection to contract award. The GAO or an impartial outside agency should examine what has happened and is happening and publicly publish their finding to the tax payers at the same time the DoD and A/F gets the final report.

As one on the outside looks on, it appears there is something wrong ongoing and it is not in the best interest of those who are charged with using and maintaining these weapon systems and to the tax payer who foots the bill and should hold the entire DoD acquisition team accountable for that is ongoing. There are too many special interests with their hand in the cookie jar and there are hidden agendas in play that resemble vendetta’s that have no place in the process.

Posted by: Reader Bob at May 2, 2008 12:53 AM


A friend, Lee Trenholm, who is a retired 767 captain said that with a Boeing you can slip (cross-control) the plane for a crosswind landing, which the Airbus computer won't allow. I've only seen this mentioned occasionally, but appears to be a gripe of Airbus captains, like Lee's son.

Posted by: charles warren at May 1, 2008 11:08 PM


andy,

Nobody is forgetting that Boeing already had the tanker deal sewed up but just HOW were tax payers being taken for a ride that would cost them and fatten the pockets of Boeing? Some enlightenment for those you continue to bee fooled by this BS claim.

May 23, 2003
Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Edward C. "Pete" Aldridge
"
The agreement provides for leasing 100 KC-767 aircraft from the Boeing Co. for six years starting in 2006, at a cost of $131 million lease price plus an additional $7 million in lease-unique costs per aircraft. The total cost will be less than $16 billion. The initiative also includes a provision to purchase the aircraft for about $4 billion at the end of the lease 2017.
"

So that would have been a total cost of ~$20 billion for 100 tankers with Boeing taking on all developement risk & cost. That translates to ~$200 million per tanker. Compare that to the "current" deal of ~$35-40 billion for 179 tankers & you get ~$195.5-223.5 million per tanker. With the previous deal (assuming it stayed on schedule) we would have 100 tankers by 2014, with the current deal we won't even get the 1st tanker until 2013. Include the cost savings from not having to maintain 136 KC-135E the previous deal would replace 10 years sooner PLUS extensive maintenance & logistical support from Boeing at substantially reduced costs & the cost per tanker of the previous drops even lower compared to the "current" deal. AND with a significant portion of the previous deal cost NOT having to come from the USAF procurement budget & the previous deal begins to look like steal FOR THE USAF!

But since there were those who just could not get the lease deal it was modified to leasing 20 (with, as before, the option to purchase at the end of the lease) [$2.4 billion] & purchase 80 [$14.8 billion] which increased up-front costs but was to have saved ~$4 billion over the life of the aircraft.

The USAF DOES NOT NEED something that can compare to the KC-10 in cargo and offload flexibility (although it will eventually when it looks to replace its KC-10's). What it NEEDS (according to its own studies) is a KC-135R equivalent. Of course the USAF has increased its requirements since its 2000 studies. The requirement for which Boeing won the previous tanker deal was BAICALLY for a tanker with fuel offload capabilities at least equal to the KC-135R but with the ability to operate from 8000' runways with a full load of fuel.

Part of the problem with the KC-X requirement is that while it adds greater emphasis on cargo capability than the USAF has previously required OR REQUESTED, it does not indicate specifics as to what/how much cargo capability.

Boeing elected not to offer a KC-777 because the USAF told them they did not want a KC-777.

What dream are you living in where 1 KC-330 can do the one mission of 3 KC-767?

Posted by: pfcem at May 1, 2008 11:23 AM


I predict that the next President will cancel this contract for the new tankers.

Posted by: LES Tenold at May 1, 2008 07:37 AM


Everyone seems to forget that Boeing already had the tanker deal sewed up until someone discovered that the tax payers were being taken for a ride that would cost them and fatten the pockets of Boeing. Lest we forget just a few short years before a certain company got caught with their hands in the cookie jar on the KC-135 heavy maintenance contract. It cost 2 Vp's and 1 CEO there jobs. Also a little jail time for the VP's.
Both companies have parts from overseas but both would also have final assembly in the US.
Boeing needs to be honest with their statements and get out of the grey areas that turn to little white mistruths. When the exectutive part of Boeing gets caught it is always the lower workers in the company that suffer by having to go thru ethics training over and over again.
Boeing had a chanced to offer up the 777 but elected not to do so. The Air Force needs something that can compare to the KC-10 in cargo and offload flexibility. Instead of having three 767's to do one mission you can have 1 A330. To me that means more fuel savings and more ramp space, also fewer flight crew and maintenance support people.

Posted by: andy at May 1, 2008 07:35 AM


Why all this crying about a French aircraft, it's a European aircraft in design ( UK, France, Germany amonst them), but with parts being buildt throughout the world, just like Boeing's effort. It's illegal to subsidise aircraft building in the E.U., the cash is loans which must be paid back.
It's a good job European nations don't act the same way many of you do when buying USA aircraft. Grow up and accept Boeing mucked up big and treated the American taxpayers as a easy way to make bucks.
As for the Presidential helicopter deal all the problems are caused on the USA side with constant changes in design's, ect.

Posted by: Alistair at April 30, 2008 02:38 PM


SMSgt Mac,

Hopefully the anti-Boeing/KC-767 pro-NG/EADS/KC-30 crowd will listen to you about how they should not "dismiss an argument based upon the source as a way of not addressing the argument or issue". ;)

Posted by: pfcem at April 30, 2008 12:51 PM


so why is it that none of the bork the french faction answer the question about the european subsidies?

again, why is it a problem if europe pays for a part of the tanler fleet.

as far as the loss of american expertise if boeing doesn't get the contract, if b. needs more experience building their old 767, thn it's a lost cause anyway.

and why does boeing think that it and not another american manufacturer should get the contract? afaik b. is not building a new factory for the contract. ng/eads (eads, not airbus) is.

Posted by: unmentionable at April 30, 2008 10:28 AM


Boeing-McDonnell Douglas has a history of telling their customers what they will build; not what the customer wants and they result has been numerous losses. They never seem to learn. Ask John McCain.

Posted by: Steve at April 30, 2008 08:48 AM


I was saving this for my blog, but all this talk of 'French' KC-45 content by the newbies is too sweet to pass up.

I estimate that the current Boeing KC-135R has a far higher 'French' content with the CFM-56 engines (50% 'French') than the KC-45.

How does all this xenophobia for the KC-45 square with the 'Foreign' content of thr B767? --Especially as it applies to the Chinese vertical stabilizer?

Good point about the French stepping up on the NATO commitment. I was surprised to read there are French fighters flying ADIZ patrols out of Iceland. (A yeoman's job performed most admirably by the 57FIS for decades, and of course done best when I was there in 80-82.;-)

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at April 30, 2008 08:00 AM


some facts :

- Airbus is not french (French, German, Spanish and british)
- Northrop is american
- major parts of the Boeing tanker will be made in japan and Italia
- assembly of both planes will be made in USA
- Boeing proposed a thirty years old and soon to be replaced aircraft
- Boeing is the most subsidised company of USA (check Google)
- Airbus gov. subsidies are launch loans only...

Posted by: abe at April 30, 2008 07:00 AM


I had written a blog post on the subject - perhaps I credited Boeing with much more smarts than they seem to have.

http://manoffewwords.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/boeing-flies-on-fumes-as-northrop-grumman-eads-tops-it-up-more-to-kc-x-kc-45-deal-than-meets-the-eye/

Lets not forget that they perhaps are protesting as well for effect, else they could be accused of not doing enough to make their case in the next analyst call.

To the last comment about the French not supporting us - well they do seem to have turned around big time under Sarkozy. And are rengaging with the Nato chain of command.

Posted by: Deepak at April 30, 2008 01:19 AM


Irregardless of the Spat between Boeing and The USAF, I think we need to look at the broader picture here. FRANCE has not supported the US in Iraq Yet here we are Rewarding them with millions of dollars and jobs that mostly will benifit Airbus and France. What is wrong with this picture?? OUR elected officials have not a clue what they are doing!

THEY ARE SELLING OUT AMERICA AND FORCING NATIONAL DEFENSE TO BE RELIANT ON FOREIGN EQUIPMENT AND PARTS.

Boeing designed, and perfected Aerial Refueling NOT AIRBUS. But to me the main issue is SELLING OUT AMERICA and American jobs to foreign countries. I do work for a major defense contractor and its scary to see the foreign part we have to deal with. I say BUY BOEING and Screw France and Airbus! I am also a USAF Vietnam Veteran!

Posted by: Dennis T at April 30, 2008 12:26 AM


I'm wondering what the Borg (Boeing) are up to behind the scenes, and I suspect Loren Thompson has some insight beyond what he's revealed so far (protect your sources y'know). It is interesting how some people will dismiss an argument based upon the source as a way of not addressing the argument or issue.

Back to Boeing's game plan now. Have they decided their scorched earth approach was counter-productive?...or are they just catching their breath? I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop before the GAO rules on the protest.

Posted by: SMSgt Mac at April 29, 2008 11:51 PM


WOW! Sounds an AWFULLY lot like 2003-2004 when some people did not like Boeing getting THAT contract & questioned the ethics of the award...

And to play the game SOME here like to play...Dr. Thompson is a WELL-KNOWN anti-Boeing/KC-767 pro-NG/EADS/KC-30 individual (in fact if was Dr. Thompson who put out the FALSE claim that "Northrop-EADS KC-30 bested Boeing’s 767 tanker version in four of five categories") so we must consider ANYTHING that even APPEARS to come from this source (or any source even remotely affiliated with it) as propaganda. ;)

***


Dennis,

What world do you live in. Boeing tried VERY hard to get this contract. As the anti-Boeing/KC-767 pro-NG/EADS/KC-30 people love to point out (as if it is a negative for Boeing & the KC-767AT), Boeing essentially designed a new 767 varient SPECIFICALLY for this contract when it could have "been complacent" & offered essentially the same exact aircraft as it was already building for Italy & Japan. Boeing considered the 767-300 but “the business case just did not justify carrying around an extra 19 feet of aluminum” in the 767-300. Hell, Boeing even considered developing a KC-777 (possibly to even offer a KC-767/KC-777 combo) until the USAF told Boeing it did not want a KC-777 for the KC-X.

Posted by: pfcem at April 29, 2008 10:47 PM


I'm just a working Joe, and have no inside information but I do read the papers. I read that Jim Albaugh CEO of Boeing felt the 767 tanker was the best bet because the 767 clearly met the requirements of what the Air force Tanker program, requested in it's first bid. The 767 (as reported by Albaugh and his VP of Mark McGraw), that the 767 had great advantages in fuel savings, as it was lighter than the Northrop Gruman much larger A330 tanker. Plus the Air Bus would be made partly in Europe. In a real-world scenario the Boing tankers would use less space than the block buster size at the Air Buss, that transposed into the fact that the large A330 would have to use more bases overseas. Yes size does matter
because in war terms, fewer bases available for figher/bombers and other aircraft would cause a bottle neck! I am a Army Viet Nam Vet and don't know much about Air Tanker's but when the chips were down on the ground it was a good feeling to see those fast movers Up there above for close air support. I feel Boeing did not get a fair hearing as yet. Hey! who knows how long this debate will go on? How long will this new delay take and how will this efect current war efforts?

Posted by: Greg Stoner, MSG Ret. at April 29, 2008 10:30 PM


Christian,

We share your respect for Dr. Thompson's work but if you really want to know why some people have issues with his briefs on the tanker issue please read our post at: http://tankerblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/thanks-for-clarification.html

Or just stop by wwww.tankerwarblog.com

Posted by: TankerWarBlog at April 29, 2008 10:17 PM


I don't understand how Airbus being subsidized by European governments hurts in their selection for the tanker award. They have a good number of industrial offsets that will be implemented in the United States, and just because Boeing may have assembled the planes doesn't mean the plane is 100% American.

Now, from one standpoint, don't you find it a bit amusing that European governments and taxpayers are subsidizing Airbus so that they can build cheaper tankers for the USAF? Aren't you glad that the French government is donating us 10-20 KC-45s? I think somebody has decided to start paying back those Marshall plan loans...

Posted by: um...hi at April 29, 2008 10:09 PM


So you guys do not want our military to have the best equipment you just want them to accept any P.O.S as long as it is built in the USA. Competition boys and girls. Boeing needs to step and stop taking our military for granted. If they had offered what the USAF had wanted they would have won the contract.

Posted by: craig at April 29, 2008 09:52 PM


American SHOULD SUPPORT ITS OWN DEFENSE INDUSTRY.
How do you expect your military industry, research and development to progress if your own military forces do not support it.
There is definately no substitute to it and its military content and development stay within its own border. Not only the military retain the industry, the people and nation will benefit from it.
Stay American and BUY AMERICAN.

Posted by: Yeo at April 29, 2008 08:41 PM


The actions of people close to us cut the deepest....
The whole affair is pathetic. Boeing is not going to go bankrupt and the next time there is competition, maybe they will actually work at it.
They got complacent with all of the paid off Air Force personnel, and congressman. They thought they had it in the bag, so they did not really try.
To admit that to themselves, they would have to admit they screwed up, and that they didn't earn their pay.
So they blame the Air Force. Who did not stay bought.

Posted by: Dennis at April 29, 2008 07:40 PM


yes, I am a smart American and sure he would be preventing a loss of jobs and an increase. But his arguements for lost revenues across the board are a pretty good assessment of how this affects our US economy. Read it on his website and evaluate it for yourself!

Posted by: JKO at April 29, 2008 04:12 PM


Wow but look at all of Boeings other projects that are billions of dollars over budget!! Let's not get ahead of ourselves by thinking Boeing is some God among contractors. Now I'm not saying that Airbus should get the contract. I think the best aircraft should. But please let's not be naive and think Boeing comes in on budget and contract date

Posted by: Chris at April 29, 2008 04:07 PM


Is that the same Kansas congressman who would gain a couple thousands jobs from the boeing deal? Because that is where the tankers are modified. But a smart american such as yourself already knew that, right?

Posted by: f at April 29, 2008 03:57 PM


No awarding the contract to Boeing is NOT a subsidy. AIRBUS is subsidized by 3 EU governments. All corporations have some corruption and this one included the air force who wanted a job for her and her daughter(or did yoou forget that!) Seems to me Boeing outed itself in this as well, and has strenghtened it's in house ethics trainig.
As far as the contract, yes the Air force changed their direction every step of the way, large air fields, bigger plane, etc, etc. Our tax dollars being spent to prop up the EU in military spending is outrageous and I hope all Americans protest/revolt over this award. Boeing has been doing this function for the AF for 50 years and if you don't think they are extremely qualified and tested over AIRBUS, you need relook at the no record they have. Their design in questionable at best. Look at the lost revenues(taxes,etc) analysis done by the Congressman from Kansas, maybe then you will change your mind. Also Boeing plane is more fuel economical. Look at the state of the Eurocopter award to the EU, it is already 1yr behind schedule and 25 million over budget, with yet a helo delivered and more money requested. What a joke!!
I would also like to see all memos John McCain wrote to the Pentagon be supenoed. he has pushed this contract to Northrup/eads the entire way. Coincidence that he employees three ex-EADs lobbyist on his congrerssional staff, as well as now running his campaign. Even as a staunch Republican, I will NOT vote for McCain! Missouri is a battleground state and with his vendetta against Boeing(which he proudly boasts about) he will never win, therefor loosing the White
House!!

Posted by: JKO at April 29, 2008 03:45 PM


Wow American, you really put some thought into that statement.

As has been discussed here ad nauseum, every defense contractor in the world receives tax benefits in some manner from their home country. And damn near every defense contractor in the world relies on other countries for material or labor support. As I understand it, Boeing's tanker proposal gets parts or assembly from China, Japan, Russia, and at least half a dozen other countries. Northrup Grumman's tanker gets the same support from France, Germany, Britain, and probably some of the same vendors as Boeing. If anyone can supply it, I'd like to see a side by side list of suppliers and dollar amounts of both planes to truly compare for those making the "buy american" argument.

My $.02 on that argument, the purpose of the defense industry is to make the best weapons available to our military - NOT to subsidize a contractor that loses a competitive bid or artificially create jobs in some congressman's hometown. For those who argue about how many jobs the defense industry provides, keep in mind these are paid for with federal dollars. Take that dollar amount and figure out how many teachers or nurses could be hired with the same amount of money. You'd be amazed how expensive a defense contractor laborer is.

Back to the current article, I find it hilarious that a company convicted of bribery and corruption (on this very contract!) would use words like "flawed" and "prejudiced".

Posted by: TB at April 29, 2008 03:19 PM


Last time I looked, Boeing didn'tseemed to be hurting in reporting huge profits.

Posted by: pas at April 29, 2008 03:12 PM


And Boeing receives no "subsidies" at all? Wouldn't awarding the contract to Boeing BECAUSE IT IS AN AMERICAN COMPANY be de facto subsidization?

Posted by: Christian at April 29, 2008 03:10 PM


AIRBUTT IS AN ILLEGALLY GOVERNMENT-SUBSIDIZED PIECE OF SHIT. EVERY OTHER CONSIDERATION IS MOOT !!!!!!!
EVERY PLANE THE PRODUCE ILLEGALLY BENEFITS FROM THESE PHRENCH AND EURO SUBSIDIES. BOEING HAS BEEN FIGHTING AGAINST THE SUBSIDIES FOR YEARS.

Posted by: American at April 29, 2008 03:02 PM


Post a comment




Remember Me?


Please enter the code as seen in the image below to post your comment.