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Posted by: geetha at August 9, 2008 05:57 AM

I say give Iraq Their Free Country & move our military to border regions in both Iraq and in Afghanistan. Drop all sanctions to boost world economy when it needs it.

We have Russia and Iran upset & Israel is more vulnerable then ever. China & NorthKorea neutral all as whole on us.

If we stay in Iraq, To The Eastern world it is no different then new Isreal. A Theme Park in The GreenZone come on! It's their land.

I am American love this country. Respect theirs!

We rid Sadaam. Victory. If Sadr becomes top next election we in same boat.
We killed alot of those filled with hatred for us. Victory.
We took many losses But could have been much worse & still could be as well.
We set Iraq somewhat free. Victory. Finish it!

Now goto phase 3. Protect them from outsiders as they need. Keep at Israel's back. We got to Baghdad in what ~30 hours. Use American power to take get out of their rightful place to be.

I support our troops. Job well done so far overall. Get to borders & underground entrances. Then come home.

Posted by: Rob N. at May 15, 2008 11:50 PM

While due diligence is very good in any task, total paranoia is a strong form of insanity.

Posted by: WR at May 13, 2008 03:47 PM

"You see victory, I see "Stalingrad."

Roy, you are delusional.

Posted by: Brad at May 13, 2008 01:02 PM

Brian
You see victory,I see "Stalingrad." I also see Muqtada al-Sadr & his militia demanding,from a position of strength & post "Dien Bien Phu" type victory,that we immediately leave Iraq.....WITHOUT our equipment AND weaponry(just like the Eritrean government is demanding that the UN Peacekeepers there do).

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 13, 2008 12:31 PM

Brian
To the extreme conspiracy theorist,Osama Bin Laden is a myth & a "strawman." They feel he is already dead,if he ever really existed at all.The "War on Terror" is a very vague term for a very vague war against a very vague enemy.Yes,9/11 REALLY happened,but the extreme conspiracy theorist greatly questions who was REALLY behind it.Unlike previous wars,excluding the Korean War & the Vietnam War which were both fought with as vague & illusive goals for victory as the current War on Terror,today's war has no discernable yardsticks for victory.Instead,we are told that this war could go on for decades,if not generations.We are also told that the Islamist Terrorist is not the only "terrorist threat" we face.We also face domestic terrorists who "spout off about the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights,are animal rights & environmental rights advocates,who home school their children,are members of the NRA,advocate the expulsion of illegal aliens,etc." Anybody who has a legitimate concern about the direction of our government & who is concerned that the "Continuity of Government" plan in place by our president(who,by the way,feels that the U.S. Constitution is just a "God damn piece of paper",kind of like our worthless U.S. dollar right now,huh?) usurps both civil & human rights of all Americans.We are supposed to be willing to surrender our civil rights for the good of our nation in this "mythical" Global War on Terror.We are also supposed to be silent when our government's "jack booted thugs" in tanks breaks down our neighbor's door because [according to government lies] he or she's a pedophile(well,that just about covers it.This is the new charge that a totalitarian society accuses its citizens of in order to lock them up in their FEMA detention centers/concentration/labor camps/"Trailer Parks").
Our military is practically disbanding our U.S. Army Special Forces(Green Beret),the very soldiers trained in counter insurgency tactics & pulling all of our special forces assets to the U.S. & sending them out in special packages like carrier task forces or expeditionary strike forces/Marine expeditionary units.They are taking away the green beret's missions & giving it to the new marine special forces units. What made Afghanistan successful with the Green Beret leading the Northern Alliance to victory against the Taliban is being discarded.They are purposely creating situations where there will be more(not less) My Lai type massacres to happen in Iraq.I think somebody would just love to see an uprising against our troops like what happened in Mogadishu during "Black Hawk Down".People concentrate on what happened to the Rangers & Delta Force during this fiasco,but it is completely ignored that 1000s of Somalis,including women & children,were mowed down & slaughtered in this blood bath.
I foresee a combination Tet/Mogadishu type uprising coupled with Hezbollah/Hamas tactics of RPGs,mortars,snipers,& extensive use buried,hardened bunkers & massive tunnel systems being used against our troops....& it will happen very soon.Maybe just before our November Presidential Election to help defeat John McCain & put either Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton in office.Maybe there will even be a "Dien Bien Phu" incident getting ready to happen in Iraq before the election.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 13, 2008 12:26 PM

Roy, let me explain how this insurgent thing works. American soldiers are operating in an urban area with a greater population density than New York City. Imagine trying to go off-road in downtown New York. Not gonna happen (sure, I guess you could free-wheel around Central Park for a while, but where you gonna go?).

Baghdad has over 7 million people in it. It is big. So now our soldiers have to patrol New York, except everybody is dressed in turbans and our soldiers don't speak the language. That guy standing there by the camel, the one who stands in the same place every day at lunch and watches the soldiers drive by? He might be a terrorist. He might be watching and plotting to blow up our people. He might, on the other hand, be a guy on his lunch hour. Our soldiers don't know for sure because there are 7 million other people just like him, standing there watching as the trucks go by. Then one day the camel explodes.

This is an area with millions of possible spies. They dress like normal people. They act like normal people. Sure, in America, we can spot the terrorist because he's wearing a turban and starts screaming out "Derka derka derka, Mohammed Jihad!" But in Iraq? They all do that. Less than a fraction of one percent are actually planning to blow you up.

How do they know when and where our patrols will go? Because our military uses patterns. They don't just drive out and say "Hey, you know, let's hit this neighborhood over here today. They got good waffles there." Of course our guys try to mix it up. They don't want to get blown up any more than you or I do. But eventually the terrorists will guess right. Some days the terrorists guess wrong. They plant bombs on the wrong road and they wait nearby, chuckling with evil glee, rubbing their hands together. And then our boys go to the other side of the city. And once night falls, the terrorist says "You know, maybe I put this bomb in the wrong place. Satan Americans!"

I find it much more plausible that the terrorists, you know, actually kinda know what they're doing, rather than to believe that some of our military contractors are meeting in secret with Osama bin Laden like some cartoon villains.

Posted by: Brian at May 13, 2008 10:23 AM

Roy Smith,

A couple other corrections...

Coalition forces did not pull down the Saddam statute (& there was no "mission" for them to do so), IRAQI CITIZENS DID (something they could not possibly have done while Saddam was in control of the country).

The "mission accomplished" statement was in relation to & addressed to the sailers & airmen of the USS Abraham Lincoln who's deployment was over (aka THIER mission WAS accomplished & THEY were going home). During that speach he took the opportunity to ALSO announced the "end of major combat operations in Iraq". In hindsight it may have been better to have announced the "end of major combat operations in Iraq" is a separate speech to avoid the confusion caused by the misrepresentation by the main steam media.

OF COURSE those very smart bombers operate from knowledge in advance of what kind of vehicle is operating both where & when. You HAVE to patrol certain ares & travel on certian roads on a regular basis! It is not like the type of vehicle one may wish to attack can ONLY be attacked at ONE specific location at ONE specific moment...

You actually believe that the insurgents could take out the U.S. Commander of Forces in Iraq at any time & place but have not yet done so out of the kindness of their hearts...

Posted by: pfcem at May 13, 2008 12:58 AM

[Gates said 6 percent of troops have been injured or killed while in the Mine Resistant Ambush Protection vehicles in 150 attacks, USA Today reported Tuesday. Six troops died.]

[The military's main ground transport, Humvees, have a 22 percent casualty rate, Gates said, while attacks on Abrams tanks are more likely to incur casualties than attacks on MRAPs.]

UPI-May 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/05/12/gates_mine-resistant_vehicles_save_lives/7555/

Posted by: HumanPestControl at May 12, 2008 11:22 PM

Maybe they are getting help from blond hair,blue eyed "Crypto-Muslims" enlisted in the military & who both operate on & provide maintenance for military vehicles.After all,our military leaders cannot even control the infestation of gang members,like the Bloods & Crips,into our military.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 06:41 PM

"the headline-producing-abrams flipping events are carefully planned and executed by smart people"

THAT is EXACTLY my "paranoid" point.Those very smart bombers operate from knowledge in advance of what kind of vehicle is operating both where & when.Its like stealing signs from the pitcher in order to know what the next pitch is or how the New England Patriots spied on their oponents in advance of the games they played against them. The "insurgents" are operating on "insider" knowledge.They most likely even know when the U.S. Commander of Forces in Iraq is leaving the Green Zone & in what vehicle.They could blow him up any time they wanted to,like Yamamoto was taken out in WWII.Perhaps,with the aide of "allies",they can even plant triggering devices on said vehicles to detonate the IED when said vehicle drives over it.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 06:36 PM

Roy,

Its not fate or chance. Its called both sides knowing how to take notes and make improvements to their TTPs.

I wish I could explain to you how the IED-emplacing process works (its mostly classified and probably above your paranoid understanding), but put it this way, the headline-producing-abrams flipping events are carefully planned and executed by smart people.

Posted by: TB at May 12, 2008 06:00 PM

Excellent examples of counter-insurgency are the French in Algeria(before they decided to just give up & walk out of Algeria,which,if I understand correctly,was considered part of France itself),the British in Northern Ireland & Malaysia,& Israel in the West Bank & Gaza.Israel building a wall to separate the Israelis from the Palestinians(another concept our government just doesn't get or understand) has helped decrease the suicide bombers in Israel.As far as tracked vehicles in urban environments go,you don't need speed versus "hauling ass" in the countryside like the "Left Hook" during Desert Storm,or the racing from Kuwait to pull down the statue in Baghdad.A 152mm gun(like on the Sheridan),which was useless in the open fields in taking out enemy tanks from long distances,would work just fine in urban areas for knocking down buildings housing enemy insurgent snipers.Or how about the much bigger 165mm demolition gun to knock down enemy held buildings? 120mm gun for the countryside to knock out enemy tanks(which,the threat of has not diminished,we still have enemies & potential enemies with tanks),& 152mm/165mm gun to knock down buildings in the city.Small dismounted foot patrols in "Indian Country" works also.
Being totally paranoid & obsessively/compulsively checking over,under,& inside your vehicle for "bugs" or triggering devices(like the meth head "tweaker" who takes his TV,toaster,& microwave oven apart to look for listening devices &/or to see who's hiding inside it) before you pull out on convoy can also save lives.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 05:26 PM

Roy Smith,

The "M1A2s" sold to Saudi Arabia & Kuwait were NEW BUILD tanks. The M1A1 kits sold to Egypt are/were NEW MANUFACTURE kits assembled at the the Egyptian Tank Plant. Only the Austrailian M1A1s came for surplus US stocks. We have LOTS of Abrams (M1 & M1A1) sitting in fields waiting to become M1A1 AIM or M1A2 SEP!

Posted by: pfcem at May 12, 2008 03:58 PM

"near the green zone in a m1a2 at 60-50 mph all the time. plus with tracks REALLY GO OFF ROAD"

In an M1A2, sintax, not an M60, as others suggested (and hopefully, I buried). World o' difference between them.

Can't avoid the roads in Baghdad. It's a city.

What is needed is not a new anything at all. Go back to CAPs: stick small units out in the population instead of fortified bases, with ocassional patrols in fortified vehicles. That is part of the surge strategy and it is working.

More armor is good, more offense, better.

Posted by: Brad at May 12, 2008 03:09 PM

what are you talking about tracks are slower then wheels? i used to drive on the Baghdad highways near the green zone in a m1a2 at 60-50 mph all the time. plus with tracks REALLY GO OFF ROAD. instead of sticking to roads and getting hit by ieds less so in urban envrioment but in places like afgan you can avoid ieds all together by not using the roads at all. putting all this armor on wheel trucks is foolish you are more inefficent with fuel, more stress on engine, more stress on axles, and more likey to do a roll over. imo whats really need is a new type of tracked apc for the infantry boys the m113 armor is too weak.

Posted by: slntax at May 12, 2008 02:31 PM

I believe the Marines had great success in the Al Anbar province when they bought donkeys to haul suppllies and got away from the roads alltogether.

Posted by: Jeff at May 12, 2008 02:11 PM

There are some 20K tanks that are sitting in storage in the US, like the aircraft boneyards. Still, you'd have to recondition them, unpreserve the engines, check them up, get them out, reopen their supply system, etc. Then take off their turrets and modify their bodies as troop carriers. Then comes the reactive armor plus EFP protection, etc, etc.

Plus, if the issue is weight, now we have 45 ton transports versus 20 ton, which are much slower and, because of tracks, more maintenance prone. The cost will probably exceed the MRAP buy for something with much lower utility (not to mention speed of acquisition).

Reconditioned tanks are a red herring. If Roy Smith is on your side, like Twain said about being in the majority, you need to rethink your position.

Posted by: Brad at May 12, 2008 01:58 PM

Personally,because the IEDs seem to be getting "bigger" & "more sophisticated",I still wonder if specific vehicles are getting "tagged(bugged with triggering devices to set off pre-determined IEDs)" in advance & planned convoy routes leaked out so that the enemy knows what kind of IED to create for what specific vehicle to create maximum shock.I mean,I believe that there is more going on here than just "Russian Roulette" games of fate or chance.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 11:42 AM

Thought some NG units were still using M60's...

The MC deployed M60's for Desert Storm, wonder where they are now. Don't think the government would scrap them all so quickly, probably rotting away in a warehouse somewhere.

If turrets are needed, there are LAV turrets. I don't think we need 120mm cannon like on the Brazilian Cascavels, for example...

Posted by: Charlie Seto at May 12, 2008 11:03 AM

Seriously,what about logical upgrades like the "Urban-Fighter" cage concept for M113s? HMMWVs should be used primarily for off-road duties,especially since their tires can be replaced with track systems like MATTRACKS.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 10:44 AM

is it just me or does the DOD only do half solutions to problems? just so they can ask for more money from congress. like getting 1114 instead of maybe a heavy apc. i can think of other examples but spending has gotten out of control over that at dod.

Posted by: slntax at May 12, 2008 10:00 AM

After all,you don't go to war with the army you wish you had,you go with the army(& Blackwater,DynCorps,Triple Canopy,KBR,& Fluor) you have already.

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 09:50 AM

Old Sailor,
Now wait a minute,Donald Rumsfeld is a "genius." After all,he took 10,000 men into Iraq,bypassing enemy troops(completely),so that he could go into Baghdad,pull down a statue,& have Pres. Bush land on an Aircraft Carrier in a flight suit & declare "Mission Accomplished." He backed up our 10,000 troops with Blackwater USA,DynCorps,& Triple Canopy,& with KBR & Fluor to provide "logistical support(?)". I read this in the book "Fiasco." how can you argue with such "military 'genius'(especially if you are a Blackwater,DynCorps,Triple Canopy,KBR,&/or Fluor stock holder)."

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 09:46 AM

We can take the turrets off of our surplus M60 & M48 tanks & use them like Israel does.Oh wait a minute,we don't have any surplus M60 &/or M48 tanks anymore.....anywhere.We don't even have any old surplus IPM1 tanks anymore(I know,because we made them all M1A1s & M1A2s....& sold them all to Egypt,Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,& now Australia).Way to go,now thats "vision" & foresight.Do we have ANY surplus weapons we can fall back on or did we sell,sink,scrap,&/or blow them all up?

Posted by: Roy Smith at May 12, 2008 09:36 AM

But wait, sintax, didn't you know that Rumsfeld has decreed that tracks are outmoded and that faster and lighter to the fight is the mantra now? My, my, how quickly bad ideas are proven wrong.

I just wish that turkey had never been Secretary of Defense. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of our now-dead heros in Iraq probably would have been far better off (and alive).

Both he and his mentor Cheney have a lot to answer for. Bush, too, for being so hard-headed to keep him on for so long when it was clear his knuckle-headed policies weren't working.

McCain gets it. I wish he had won in 2000 or 2004 rather than Bush.

Posted by: Old Sailor at May 12, 2008 09:16 AM

they should switch from wheels to tracks. putting all that armor on those axles will just wear out the engine and truck. i know that the israelis use mbt's without the turrents for troop carriers those would work better then an mrap.

Posted by: slntax at May 12, 2008 08:33 AM

Anyone have any idea if the Army will move forward with their plan to purchase up to 15k MRAPs?

Posted by: Jim at May 12, 2008 08:24 AM

The new add-on will not provide complete protection against all EFPs, just enhanced protection against the current models.
A much larger EFP will just punch right through.
That doesn't mean the protection isn't worth having or that it won't save lives, but we have to remember there are no magic solutions.

Posted by: Wembley at May 12, 2008 07:46 AM