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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Iran's Natanz Tough Nut to Crack

IDF-air-force.jpg

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak is in town this week to discuss with White House and Pentagon officials what to do about Iran’s nuclear program. Accompanying Barak is Israeli Transport Minister Shaul Mofaz; he’s the former IDF chief who set off a firestorm recently when he said an Israeli military strike against Iran is “unavoidable.” Current IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi was here last week and met with his Pentagon counterpart, Admiral Michael Mullen. Ashkenazi reportedly said he favors a diplomatic solution, but also issued the standard declaration that “all options must be prepared” for stopping Iran’s nuclear program.

There has been considerable debate about whether Israel could even carry out an effective air strike against Iran’s nuclear program. Analysts say there are too many factories, labs and reactor sites dispersed too widely across the country. According to a 2006 paper published by two MIT doctoral candidates (one of the most thorough pieces of analysis available), it would be impossible for Israel to knock out the entire Iranian nuclear program but the target set could be narrowed to the most critical facilities. They identify the critical nodes as: the Esfahan uranium conversion facility, the gas centrifuges at the Natanz enrichment facility and the heavy water plant and future plutonium production reactors at Arak.

The MIT analysts identify Natanz as the most difficult target because much of the facility is buried deep and covered with layers of concrete. Israeli bombs would have to penetrate the earth covering, bore through the concrete layers and then dump enough bombs into the hole to generate blast pressures that could damage or destroy the equipment inside. They figure the strike package would have to drop a combination of roughly 24 BLU-109 2,000 lb. and BLU-113 5,000 lb. bunker busters on Natanz. The facilities at Esfahan are not buried and those at Arak are not hardened, so those targets sets would be relatively simple to destroy with no more than 24 2,000 pound GPS guided bombs.

What does Israel have as far as deep strike weapons? The MIT folks count at least 25 F-15I (the Israeli version of the F-15E Strike Eagle) and 20-50 F-16I, both airframes configured specifically for deep strike missions. Israel also has a large number of F-16s that could be fitted as strike aircraft, Wild Weasel jamming aircraft and over 40 F-15A and C versions to escort the bombers. Developments in precision targeting, specifically GPS guided bombs, means all Israeli aircraft carry bombs considerably more accurate than those used in the Osirak raid. They envision a 50 plane strike package evenly split between F-15I and F-16I aircraft.

Then the question becomes how well can Iran defend its airspace. Iranian aircraft are a mix of the old and the very old. Iran’s most modern fighter is the Mig-29, of which they have maybe 40. They also have a large number of 1970s era F-4, F-14, F-5 and some newer Chinese built F-7M and F-6. Iranian fighters would be operating over friendly territory, advantageous when they need to refuel or rearm. They could also draw on ground control radar to guide them into favorable attack positions against IDF aircraft roaming Iranian air space. If the Iranian aircraft could get into firing position against Israeli bombers, which is admittedly a big if, they have sufficiently modern air-to-air missiles that they could probably down a few.

It’s not Iran’s fighter jets that could pose the real challenge, as the Iranian air force is more of an “antique show,” says David Ochmanek, an analyst with RAND who directs an ongoing study for the U.S. Air Force that examines future threats from Iran. The real threat to an attacker, he says, are Iranian surface-to-air missiles. There are reports that the Iranians field some of the newer Russian-built double digit SAMs, such as the SA-10, though not the newer and more potent SA-20 (the newer Russian designation is S-300 and S-400). The S-300 is considered by some accounts to be comparable to the U.S.-built Patriot air defense missile.

Ochmanek says the double digit SAMs are far more capable than the earlier SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6. The newer systems have high powered radars that are difficult to jam and more powerful, faster missiles. Barry Watts, an analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington thinktank, and a Vietnam-era fighter pilot, says if pilots could spot the smoke trails of the earlier generation of SAMs they could outmaneuver them because of the G-force limitations of those older missiles. With the latest generation SAMs outmaneuvering doesn’t work. “Those missiles went from ten G missiles, to about thirty or forty G’s,” which means the missile’s turn rates are vastly improved, he said. Coupled with the new powerful radars, “if the missile is locked up on you and it’s guiding, the only thing you can do is pull the ejection handles and get out of the airplane.”

Iran has also reportedly bought the fairly sophisticated Tor-M1 SA-15 Gauntlet, a short-range mobile SAM system. The Tor M-1’s greatest strength is its mobility, which, because of Iran’s sizeable and mountainous terrain, could make for a very difficult target because it can pop-up almost anywhere. Iran lacks the resources to protect all of its air space, so it relies on “point defense,” deploying its anti-aircraft guns and missiles around strategically important sites, Ochmanek says.

The MIT folks figured that to carry out an effective strike, twelve F-15Is would have to arrive over Natanz, six F-16I over Esfahan and five F-16I over Arak. Their analysis said that a 50 plane strike package would provide the Israelis significant attrition cushion. The paper’s authors note that to cause the operation to fail, Iranian air defenses would have to down close to 40% of the attacking Israeli jets, an attrition rate that would exceed even the disastrous U.S. raid on Ploesti in Word War II. The MIT analysts conclude that largely because of advances in precision weaponry, “Israeli leaders have access to the technical capability to carry out the attack,” and that it would be no more risky than that of the 1981 raid on Osirak.

If a couple of students from MIT came up with that conclusion, the Israeli intelligence and military communities probably have a fairly high degree of confidence in the success of air strikes. The Israelis likely believe they can set back any progress the Iranians have made in nuclear enrichment by at least five years. What that would buy Israel and the rest of the world in terms of changing Tehran’s policies is anybody’s guess.

-- Greg Grant

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Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 08:09 PM


Roy Roy Roy... you're not listening to common sense. The powers that be in this world want you to know what's going on, you don't have to look beneath the surface of everything, most of what you see is how things really are.

I just read a great essay today at the bookstore, if you can get through the whole thing maybe things will make more sense to you. This woman should be running for President:

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080701faessay87401-p0/condoleezza-rice/rethinking-the-national-interest.html

Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 08:07 PM


Another "hairbrain" question,why doesn't the DHS AND New York City not want "Joe Average Citizen" to carry around Geiger Counters & other detection devices,especially around New York City? Don't you trust your completely loyal,patriotic,& law abiding [Goyim] citizens with such tools?

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 2, 2008 10:04 AM


Come on,we also know that the so called "suit case nuke" is a misnomer.The "suitcase nuke" would at least be as small as the foot lockers we had in army basic training.Also,155mm shells aren't exactly small.
Also,"small nuclear bombs" opens up another "conspiracy theory" can of worms.You see,suit case bombs are advertised as both being small AND as powerful as the bombs used in Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Have you heard the "rumor" that the 2002 Bali Bombing was a compact nuclear device? If it wasn't a compact nuclear device,it sure acted like a thermobaric device. The injuries from people close by matched flash burns you'd see after a "small" nuclear explosion.
Let's go to the 9/11 conspiracy theories,some believe that "well placed" compact nuclear devices brought down the Twin Towers & Building Seven.They base that on the intense heat that melted metal & stayed hot(the metal stayed molten) for months,even down to the lower underground levels,with the fire department unable to cool it down with water.
You see,people are expecting "tiny" nuclear devices,like your 155mm shell,to act like "traditional" atomic/nuclear bombs with mushroom cloud & widespread damage like Hiroshima,but wouldn't it be more reasonable that the flash & damage of a "compact" device would be limited to a city block or two like the 2002 Bali bombing & wouldn't the radiation quickly dissipate?

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 2, 2008 10:00 AM


"Milstar satellite constellation consists of five satellites positioned around the Earth in geosynchronous orbits."

I think we can lay that BS article to rest now.

Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 05:04 AM


Here Roy,

Visuals, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeydrHKvpYM

You can see the alpha particles flying off of that chunk of material, they travel a few inches on average. Now imagine how many of those particles would hit a 5 ton satellite in space. A satellite in low-earth orbit, rotating the earth at high speed is maybe 200 miles up, a stationary satellite in GEO orbit is 22,236 miles above sea level.

Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 05:00 AM


Another thing Roy, that article says no such suitcase-sized device could exist, but that is total BS also. They built plenty of nuclear weapon that fit into a 155mm artillery shell. Critical mass for plutonium is 10kg using a beryllium reflector, add a few kg of high explosives and you have a suitcase bomb. The only devices big enough to need an 18 wheeled tractor trailer are hydrogen bombs. Pretty much any sized plutonium weapon could be made to fit into the trunk of a honda civic. This demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge on the part of this source.

Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 04:45 AM


Roy,

These tiny high velocity particles they refer to in this dumbed down article you're quoting are called alpha particles, and can be shielded pretty easily.

"Because of their charge and large mass, alpha particles are easily absorbed by materials and can travel only a few centimeters in air. They can be absorbed by tissue paper or the outer layers of human skin (about 40 micrometres, equivalent to a few cells deep)"

Other types of nuclear decay behave similarly. Radiological detectors depend on detecting ionized air, not the alpha particles directly.

Here's an authoritative source on the topic of radiological detection:

www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/congress/oxford_dndo_21jun05.pdf

Be skeptical of this complete bullshit you're buying into, someone has made you into a "useful idiot". So you can't trust your government, that government is made up of ordinary people who relinquish control voluntarily at the end of their term, this is not GI Joe and GW Bush is not the Cobra Commander, hell bent on destroying earth. This article you quote sounds like a transcription of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell, it sites no sources. It is such total rubbish.

Ask yourself this, Roy: if these particles can't be shielded against, then how do you detect them? This paradox should be a tell-tale sign that something is not right with this article.

Furthermore, throw rense.com OUT of your list of trustworthy sources, here it is, their disclaimer at the bottom of their homepage:

"The myriad of facts, conjecture, perspectives, viewpoints, opinions, analyses, and information in the articles, stories and commentaries posted on this site range from cutting edge hard news and comment to extreme and unusual perspectives. We choose not to sweep uncomfortable material under the rug - where it can grow and fester. We choose not to censor skewed logic and uncomfortable rhetoric. These things reflect the world as it now is - for better and worse. We present multiple facts, perspectives, viewpoints, opinions, analyses, and information.

Journalism is (or used to be) the profession of gathering and presenting a broad panorama of news about the events of our times and presenting it to readers for their own consideration. We believe in the intelligence, judgment and wisdom of our readers to discern for themselves among the data which appears on this site that which is valid and worthy...or otherwise. See full legal disclaimer"

Posted by: Jeff M at August 2, 2008 04:35 AM


NUCLEAR SENSING CAPABILITY

NEWS BRIEF: " US Satellite Detection Of Portable Nuclear Weapons", Rense.com, 11-7-2001, http://www.rense.com/general16/nucla.htm

"If an internal nuclear attack ever occurs in this country without a major failure of our satellite assets...perhaps we should rethink just who the enemy really is..."

These opening words are shocking, and they are intended to be. The writer wanted all of us to know that America has the technical capability to stop any terrorist in his tracks if he ever dares try to sneak nuclear weapons into this country. Let us now review the "rest of the story".

"As you have probably heard from the major news networks, there is some concern about the so-called portable nuclear devices developed by the old USSR. Their former head of the KGB has confirmed the existence of 150 portable devices: 100 of which are presently unaccounted for ... none of these devices are missing; We know exactly where these devices are located at any given point in time.

"This is how we know: During the 1980's I worked as a Senior Systems Engineer for several DOD companies in San Diego (Advanced Digital Systems and SAIC). While in this position I was tasked with developing a 'Fleet Satellite Catastrophic Restoral Plan' for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. My group was to develop a method for satellite intelligence restoral in the event of a space born nuclear strike by the Soviet Union. In the course of this study, we had to review all satellite capabilities and characteristics: both current and projected through the early ninety's. A series of satellites planned to begin deployment in 1989 ... They carry special sensor devices (Developed by SAIC) that can detect high-velocity spin-off particles from enriched uranium (necessary for nuclear devices). Due to the small size and velocity of these particles, no amount of shielding can block them: not lead, not earth (sub-terrainian). Radiation hazards from these particles are minimal due to limited quantity. Our satellites are fool-proof in detecting and pin-pointing the locations of enriched uranium throughout the world." (Ibid., Emphasis added)

Did you realize our satellites had this capability? They can accurately sense the "high-velocity spin-off particles from enriched uranium", even if the device is encased in lead or buried in the earth! This capability means that we know the exact location of every nuclear warhead in the world. We know where every single Russian warhead is, and we knew that Saddam Hussein did not have nuclear warheads!

This news is simply staggering in its implications. The current news breaking all over the world is now telling us that the British MI6 and the American CIA were guilty of massive "intelligence failures" in their pre-war assessment of Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction. But, this revelation tells us that such 'intelligence failure' is impossible, for we have the capability to pinpoint the exact location of every nuclear warhead on earth at any moment of time! "Rogue States" who are said to be developing their own nuclear capability would be giving up their nuclear devices quickly, for they would know that we know the location of each and every warhead.

Destroying an enemy's capability depends largely on several factors: 1) Knowing the exact location of the target; 2) Having the weapons that can destroy the targets before the enemy can move them; 3) Possessing weapons accurate enough to destroy the target.

Our satellite capability to sense even minute high-velocity particles emanating from even the smallest nuclear device gives us the most important factor of all: Knowing the exact location of the target.

Since this information is so unbelievable, are there any other sources to which we can turn to gain verification? As President Reagan used to say often, "Trust, but Verify".

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 1, 2008 11:40 PM


Roy,

You can shield nukes with lead. Besides, detection in outer space would never work, it's hard enough to detect a nuke passing through a border crossing, let alone from 200 miles above, in the pool of radiation that is outer space, when the entire earth below is emitting radiation as well as the massive sun. It's not like a radio signal.

Posted by: Jeff M at August 1, 2008 10:21 PM


TO PANTERA

Win a few lose few-lose a few- There has been too much noticeable reality to be simply coincidental with the instructions in the POEZ. Obviously you have read them also. As I wrote earlier respect is variable and conditional. Credibility has the same characteristics.

The Jews especially the Zionists declare them fake and forgeries. Being an Anti Zionist Goy, naturally I am suspicious but willing to listen to any contrary evidence to what I consider to be fact

We have to dig for historical evidence that happened to the Palestinian village DEIR YASSAN Massacre by the IRGUN ZAVAI LEUMI, lead by Menachem Begin on April 10, 1948. His rap sheet started in 1913 and was Appointed Israeli Prime Minister and invited to the White house by Jimmy Carter in 1977 and again in 1981 by Ronald Reagan.

John Spooner Sr
Ghost Trooper

Posted by: Jphn Spooner Sr at August 1, 2008 12:51 PM


"Fortress Iran is Virtually Impregnable to a Successful Invasion"
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5606.html

This article is saying exactly what I & anybody who can still read a map & understand basic geography knows & has been saying all along,Iran is a natural fortress nearly impossible to invade.
Iran is not hurting anybody.It is being turned into a boogeyman just like a 6 foot tall bearded Arab man living in a primitive cave,no doubt without indoor plumbing & for sure without electricity,has been turned into the biggest boogeyman ever. Please tell me how one man living more primitively than New Guinea tribesmen,Amazon Indians,or African bush men/pygmies has this awesome power to mastermind terrorist attacks anywhere in the world. What is he using,carrier pigeons? Why aren't we banning the domestic use of pigeons then? Come on DHS,you aren't doing your job.

Anyway Jeff M,
Do you seriously doubt our nation's "god-like powers" to monitor every radioactive isotope on this big blue marble? Are you saying that the NSA & our satellites ARE NOT THAT GOOD?
Our nation could probably monitor each time a portable X-Ray machine moves from floor to floor in our hospitals.
So,we have the greatest military in the world & Iran should be shaking in their boots at the mere mention of our name,but we have absolutely NO WAY to monitor the movement of radioactive material ANYWHERE in the world? Sounds like a contradiction to me. Knowing that we have this capability,it is obvious that our government would be complicit in any "terrorist" nuclear attack in our nation because of the capability to both monitor & stop any nuclear material from moving around in our nation's borders. Forget On-Star or Lo-Jack,if you have ANYTHING radioactive in your vehicle,you can be successfully tracked anywhere you go. Our government can also tell where that radioactive material originated,what country it came from originally.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 1, 2008 12:01 PM


Thanks Brian,

Brian

Posted by: Brian at August 1, 2008 10:34 AM


Continue to monitor, assist the development of Democracy in Iran, be less sensitive to verbal insults by the Iranian government, and do not strike until there is honest to god/allah evidence it's necessary. The Iranian rhetoric sounds so deliberately hostile, wanting for a confrontation, that later "dirty" retaliation would be a plausibly self-justified move on Iran's part. Iran has a secondary motive, I just sense it. Can we hurt them more with their economy than with bombs. The Iranian people will bond to the religious clerics if an attack it done too soon. They will do the opposite if their economy is hit as hard as the bunker bombs could hit the reactor sites. The clerics want to be attacked. They want their people to feel victimized. It's just a matter of whom they Iranians perceive as their enemy. The clerics or the country that physically attacks them. Economic attacks are not as easily identified by the public. Attack Iran economically with the economy. Provide all the necessary means for Iranians to complain, organize and become angry with their leaders.

Posted by: Bob at August 1, 2008 12:26 AM


Yeah I'm the only "Jeff M" here.

Roy, take your pills. The sad thing is that you take your "theories" so seriously. If a nuke goes off in our country you automatically think it's the US government, and try to create more wildly imaginative "theories" around that belief. I see a lot of people with your condition these days.

Posted by: Jeff M at July 31, 2008 09:34 PM


I'd just like to point out that there are two Brians here. Not that I necessarily disagree with the other guy, but in case he says anything crazy later, I want plausible deniability.

Posted by: Brian at July 31, 2008 08:09 PM


Monitoring radioactive isotopes is not unique to us.You just cannot adequately shield the isotopes from detection.The amount of lead needed is too impractical to be able transport the radioactive material undetected.Russia,China,& the European Union can also monitor radioactive material like this.All radioactive material is cataloged with each having their own unique signature or identifying markers,point of origin,& country in possession of said materials.All radioactive material being transported,legally & illegally,can be monitored by satellite surveillance.

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 31, 2008 07:49 PM


Joe said, "Wow. Quacks and Nutters in spades. Where'd they come from?" ROFLMAO!! 8O)

That made my day... Thanks.

Posted by: Camp at July 31, 2008 07:08 PM


Roy,

I wish that were true. The Roman empire was too great to fall too.

Posted by: Brian at July 31, 2008 05:09 PM


We have the ability to monitor every radioactive material on the planet.Each radioactive material,whatever it is,has its own identification signature,just like the retina of an eye or a fingerprint.Any nuclear "bomb" can be monitored right from the point departure & can be stopped at any point of its destination.In fact,they can even tell you where the radioactive isotope originated,what part of the earth it was dug up.They can tell you if that isotope is Russian,Chinese,South African,etc. Our satellites are THAT GOOD. It can tell when isotopes "go off the grid(is placed in a lead container,which has to be pretty big & heavy to keep satellites from picking it up). We know what nuclear devices Iran has,how many,where they are,& where they got them. With "god-like knowledge" we know if they move anything radioactive from Iran to Lebanon(the same way we can "track" a nuclear device moving around in the U.S. We can stop ANY dirty bomb or "terrorist" nuclear attack on any of our cities.Keep that totally in mind if a nuclear bomb explodes in Middle America.Knowing how radioactive isotopes can be easily traced,any nuclear bomb exploding in any American city is an inside job,a "false flag" event). To test my theory,just steal some nuclear material & see just how far you get(or don't get) before SWAT is all over your ass.
So all of this "fear-mongering" over evil Iran sending nuclear bombs to Lebanon or the U.S. is pure bulls**t.

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 31, 2008 04:56 PM


Are you guys freaking insane? Have you heard of hezzbollah? where do you think they get all thier ammo? have you heard of hamas? where do they get all their stuff? I-freaking-Ran. Taking out the delivery methods of nukes form Iran? You'd have to kill 70% of the population of Lebanon and Palestine. I can't believe people here can't see the difference between Israel and Iran. Oh, and we sure want Iran giving nukes to al-qeda people to don't we?

Sorry to have to point this out, but there really are good guys and bad guys. Its about time the good guys stop listening to all these feel good types and start kicking some bad guy a**

Posted by: Brian at July 31, 2008 04:02 PM


Come on,haven't we all commented on how weak Iran's army is? Besides,Iran was voted to head the 100 nation non-aligned movement,which is also backed by Russia & China,which seems to me to be a vote of confidence for Iran. Iran's missiles CANNOT reach Israel(but Israel has a diesel submarine off the coast of Iran).
Iran's army,by itself,cannot go into & through Iraq & maneuver through Jordan to attack Israel.WHO EVER SAID THAT THEY COULD? look at Iran's fighter jets,they are all hopelessly outdated,plus they do not have the parts to keep them air worthy.
They also already have nuclear warheads from that Khan dude in Pakistan. So,almost all of you would agree that Iran is no threat at all,why do we need to bomb them then? People contradict themselves when they talk about how backward Iran is & then what a threat Iran is also.Come on,it's either/or.
I stand by my statement 100% that Russia has Iran's back,even to the point of placing Russian troops in Iran to protect her from Israel & the U.S. Russia has already said that an attack on Iran is an attack on Russia.The Shanghai Cooperation Organization(which China is also a member of) also has Iran's back.Turkey & Iran are already cooperating on attacking Kurdish rebels in Northern Iraq.Turkey is also thisclose to shooting the bird at NATO & the European Union & becoming an Islamic Republic & spitting on the grave of Ataturk & his "secular dream."
Either by supporting China in the second wave,or Iran & Russia in the first,Pakistan is close to overthrowing Musharrif(or however you spell his name) & becoming a radical Islamic Republic(those Pakistani Deobandis started the Taliban,& they are as radical AND zealous as the Saudi Wahhabis.I had one "witness" to me when I was in the army in Denver,CO back in the early 80s).
Israel better worry about the Palestinians,Lebanon,Syria,Jordan,& Egypt first before worrying about Iran.

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 31, 2008 02:54 PM


That SPICE kit really gives an edge to Israel.

The Python 5 alone makes any Iran aircraft a sitting duck.

Posted by: Vitor at July 31, 2008 02:43 PM


Roy, you are an idiot. Your comments are so flippantly ridiculous, I won't even respond point by point. Iran has no allies in this world but Syria, and we've all seen how Syria stands up to Israel.

Posted by: Jeff M at July 31, 2008 02:07 PM


>Fifth,Pakistan will most likely move her army
>into Afghanistan in support of the Taliban to
>put them back in power.The former Soviet Central
>Asian States will also close bases off to the
>U.S. & NATO & Afghanistan will be totally cut
>off from resupply & troop reinforcements

And maybe we would all turn inside out and explode as well, Roy.

Posted by: Trent Telenko at July 31, 2008 02:02 PM


Attacking Iran has no legitimate military value.There is nothing whatsoever to be gained by attacking Iran.First off,Israel & the U.S. will be going it alone & become pariahs in the world.Second,Russia has both promised & committed its military resources to the protection of Iran,that also includes putting Russian soldiers in Iran to protect her.Third,an attack will not only cause Iran to close of the Strait of Hormuz,but Russia will cut off all of her oil & natural gas to Europe.Fourth,Turkey will join Russia & Iran in any retaliatory action against Israel,the U.S.,& the West.Fifth,Pakistan will most likely move her army into Afghanistan in support of the Taliban to put them back in power.The former Soviet Central Asian States will also close bases off to the U.S. & NATO & Afghanistan will be totally cut off from resupply & troop reinforcements.
For all of you who think that Iran is the pariah state,you better look again at who Russia & China are standing behind(hint,it's not the U.S. &/or Israel).Israel,you better worry more about Beirut,Damascus,Amman,& Cairo & less about Tehran(because Moscow,Ankara,& Islamabad,plus Beijing are standing behind her).

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 31, 2008 01:20 PM


Greg,

All that pre-strike analysis presupposes that Israel has not added range extending glide bomb kits to it's JDAM bombs.

Simple glide bomb kits can extend the range of JDAMs to 40 miles and take the F-15I & F-16I strike fighters out of the range of the SA-15 and in some cases the S300.

Two examples from Global security web site:

(1) Diamondback glide bomb kit:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/diamond-back.htm

>When a bomb like the GPS-guided JDAM (Joint
>Direct Attack Munition), equipped with a DIAMOND
>BACK ® kit, is released at an altitude of 25,000
>ft (7 600 m), its range changes from 18.5km to
>65 km.
>
>Diamond Back®, when integrated with a tail
>controlled weapon such as JDAM or the SSB,
>provides standoff and cross track
>maneuverability for a significantly expanded
>footprint. The larger footprint not only
>provides additional survivability for the
>delivery aircraft, but also allows the attack of
>multiple, widely separated targets from a single
>release point. Diamond Back® is designed to meet
>the demanding space requirements for rotary
>launchers in the B-1 and B-2 as well as for
>internal carriage on the JSF and F-22 for 1,000-
>pound, 500-pound and SSB versions.

(2) Longshot Glide bomb kit

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/longshot.htm

>The wings, which extend from a compact folded
>position upon deployment, give the bomb a great
>deal of maneuverability, as well as glide ratio
>of 8:1 or higher, depending on the model. This
>translates into the ability to attack from an
>altitude of 30,000 feet and hit a point target
>more than 40 miles away with an accuracy of
>better than 15 meters. The guidance system,
>which uses GPS data for navigation, can be pre-
>programmed for targeting prior to launch, or as
>an option, can be re-targeted as needed by the
>flight crew using the small knee-mounted data
>pad, which transmits over the aircraft's common
>UHF comm radios, alleviating the need to provide
>hardwire communications to the weapon.


This also leaves out a host of Israeli designed weapons that include:

(a) MSOV Modular Stand off Vehicle gliding dispenser:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/msov/MSOV.html

(b) Popeye, Popeye Lite & Popeye Turbo family of missiles:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/popeye/Popeye.html
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/popeye/Popeye_Lite.html
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/delilah2/Delilah2.html

(c) Delilah 1 & 2 missiles
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/delilah/Delilah.html
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/delilah2/Delilah2.html

(d) Spice Guided bombs

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/spice/Spice.htm

>SPICE has an effective drop range of 60 km,
>which allows the attacking aircraft to destroy
>the target without getting into the threat zone.
>Any aircraft can carry several bombs, and select
>the targets at the course of flight.

and

(e) TALD unpowered & ITALD powered radar decoys.

Anyone saying Israel will take a 40% loss rate in a strike on Iran is playing political games.

Posted by: Trent Telenko at July 31, 2008 01:20 PM


Quite possibly the worst thread in DefenseTech history.

Posted by: Rob1855 at July 31, 2008 12:40 PM


you should bow to jews..or be killed. we are the chosen one. time is on our side. you all gonna be next.

Posted by: moe at July 31, 2008 11:45 AM


Excluding using little boys to clear minefields,Iran has never really had a history of being suicide bombers,at least not like what's being used in Lebanon,Iraq,Afghanistan,etc. It may just be my opinion,but I think that Iran would be a more honorable opponent in battle than what we are facing now. It's hard to twist Iranians into monstrous boogeymen. To me,they are equal to the Argentines of the 70s & the Falkland War as far as despotic regime goes.
Anyway,like I said before,Israel needs to worry more about the Palestinians,Lebanon(Hezbollah),Syria,Jordan(especially if the king gets overthrown),& (ally or not,) Egypt.Egypt & Syria both have missiles that can reach all of Israel. Lebanon & Jordan both have sizable Palestinian populations who could join with the Palestinians in the occupied territories & in Israel itself to sabotage Israel's infrastructure & throw up roadblocks for Israel's reservists to reach their units & equipment.
Iran currently has nothing to threaten Israel with.Israel needs to confront the above mentioned local threats before they even talk about doing anything to Iran(by that time,Iran will most likely be joined up in a military alliance with Russia,Turkey,the Central Asian (former Soviet) Republics,maybe even Pakistan with combined troops already in place to run through Iraq,a dried up Euphrates River,& onwards to the Megiddo Valley with Libya & the Sudan(along with fellow African Union allies) advancing from the south through a bombed out Egypt.Don't get me started on China & her allies bringing up the rear after Russia-Iran-Turkey.

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 31, 2008 11:01 AM


Wow. Quacks and Nutters in spades. Where'd they come from? I look forward to the Israelis spanking the Iranians, probably sometime in October. Mazoltov!

Posted by: Joe at July 31, 2008 10:46 AM


John Spooner,

Did you just refer to the Protocols of Zion as a legitimate resource? I sure hope not because that would destroy any credibility you had left.

Posted by: Pantera at July 31, 2008 10:04 AM


Pleuris,

1. In my book respect is conditional and variable. One condition being respect has to be earned. The variable is is it has to be earned by action, not by verbal flatulent.

2. Developing nuclear powered electrical services what s country uses after they have sold all their crude oil. Poverty is a result of being in debt to the world bank ore of it subsidiaries like the USA Inc.generated debt to the Federal Reserve System.

3. If you don't like the Iranian government don't live in that country. Have you read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? You may not like living here in the North American Union when they take over!

John Spooner
Ghost Trooper

Posted by: John Spooner Sr. at July 31, 2008 09:41 AM


I've been reading for a couple of years now that a military strike against Iran's Nuke program will be of "limited" effect. If you only concentrate on the sites that is correct. BUT if you hit the personnel-chemists/physicist/engineers, then you'll be much more effective. It's simple math, 2-5 years to build a reactor-24 years to grow/educate a scientist. And you don't have to get all of them, just enough to scare the rest away. Remember Mr. Bull-the Canadia supergun builder?

Posted by: scott at July 31, 2008 08:58 AM


You have to remember that at this point we have no actual evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons -- and that misinterpretation of the old Khomeini quote has been going around far too long.
.
An unprovoked attack on another state is not something that would be taken lightly, and would push Israel further into paraiah territory. It would also strongly encourage others to start developing nuclesr weapons, since, as with North Korea, that seems to be the only way to forestall an attack.
.
You also have to ask what the other consequences of such an attack would be. $200 a barrel is just the start, ad the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan might deteriorate rather seriously.
.
We can only hope it never happens.

Posted by: Wembley at July 31, 2008 07:48 AM


Let's bear in mind that Iran isn't limited to SCUDs and fighter-bombers as delivery platforms. Are you going to sink every merchant ship, destroy every aircraft, and strafe every donkey herd? A country with the capability and intent to use suicide attacks doesn't have to rely on "conventional" delivery systems.
Israel knows this, and it probably informs their intent to keep nuclear weapons out of Iranian hands.

Posted by: TrustButVerify at July 31, 2008 07:38 AM


The difference between Israel and Iran is that Israel has had nukes for 20 years and never used and would not use them except in the case of a "broken arrow" situation in defense of their very existence. Iran has threatened to erase Israel from the map. Does anyone not see the difference in those two stances? Sure are a lot of Israel haters around here. I guess the US can only be friendly with democratic countries that are not Jews. Jihadists and religious dictators are okay though. Hmm. Interesting.

Posted by: WJS at July 31, 2008 06:30 AM


I don't think anybody is saying that nobody in the region can have nukes, Pakistan has nukes but they have a government that participates in international politics. The incentive package offered to Iran includes membership in world government organizations, it would be a fix for their problems, it would make their citizens happier than they have ever been, the world wants them to open the door and start being a citizen of the world. Iran just wants to hole up like the unabomber and build bombs. That's the problem. It is the powers that be in Iran that demonize western politics because it is a threat to their stranglehold on the country. If you want to know how the Iranians feel, why don't you check the Iranian blogs...

http://blogsbyiranians.com/

Posted by: Jeff M at July 31, 2008 02:24 AM


I call ¨red herring¨

Assume Irans´nuclear progress to be the equvalent of the U.S. 1944. One bomb, two, perhaps a half dozen.
Then, assume that there is huge politcal opportunity hidden in PERMITTING Iran to develop nuclear "engergy"; if the DANGER can be eliminated.

Cure?

Do not attack the production faciities. not doing this gain political brownie points across the globe and across all parties arguments.

Instead, destroy Iran's ability to DELIVER weapons.

That is the way to "win", in tactics and strategy.
It is the way the U.S. failed to do, re: Iraq, and now is mired for six years.

Hit missle sites, airfields, harbors. Easy targets, effectual. Back it up with destruction of oil assets of Iran, and you end up with a very likely good outcome....which is DO-ABLE

Posted by: campbell at July 31, 2008 02:05 AM


Israel had nukes before the Yom Kippur war in 73. Threats of nuclear warfare is what motivated the US to back israel to the hilt and even a standoff with the russians.

Just ask Vanunu about the ISraeli nuke program. Oh yeah, he is forbiddent to speak with foreigners.

Posted by: Joe at July 31, 2008 12:28 AM


Sam:

Israel has had nuclear weapons for the past 20-30 years.

Posted by: Rob1855 at July 30, 2008 11:50 PM


The Iranians should have launched a preemptive strike on Israel by now. Perhaps they do not have the capability but they are definitely justified in ding so. Israel has been threatening to attack Iran and has been training for it for a long time.

I hope that Israel tries to attack Iran and that it is a complete failure. I don't want to see any country have nuclear weapons, especially not Israel.

Posted by: Sam at July 30, 2008 11:43 PM


Iran would want nukes whether Israel had them or not. And the reason is very simple. Iran is Islamic and Israel is Jewish. Religious differences is the driving force.

Posted by: Mike at July 30, 2008 11:31 PM


Israel brought it upon themselves by having nukes. What did it expect it's neighbors to do? Nothing. If I was a leader of a country with a neighbor that had nukes I sure as hell would do everything I could to get nukes. It's a leaders duty to protect his people.

Jeff

Posted by: jeff at July 30, 2008 11:16 PM


Blowing up the plants will not help. Israel will have to take out the scientists behind the project in order to put a stop to it. A few key kidnappings would be far more damaging then any bomb strike.

Posted by: James at July 30, 2008 10:55 PM


I read somewhere that Iran is no threat to Israel. Iran's missiles cannot reach Israel & Israel has an excellent anti-missile defense anyway. Also,Iran's military is perfect for defending Iran's unique terrain,but not very good for offensive operations. I read that Iran already has nuclear weapons thanks to Pakistan selling them warheads,so all of this preventing Iran from enriching uranium is just bulls**t.
Israel needs to worry more about the Palestinians,Lebanon,Syria,Jordan,& Egypt attacking them(very,very 100% likely) than Iran attacking them(very UNLIKELY). This is all a red herring & just a "rumour of war" to keep oil prices sky high.

Posted by: Roy Smith at July 30, 2008 10:30 PM


Maybe Israel could disarm its nukes or the US can then

1. Cut off all aid to Israel saving thew american taxpayer a few billion a year to, say buy planes and guns for our own military

then

2. Bomb the crap out of the Iranians if they then refuse to disarm.

It was not the Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians, or Pakastanis who introduced nukes to south-west asia.

I say de nuke the WHOLE area. It is not as if the israelis cannot militarily dominate any combination of their neighbors at will. I just do not see why I have to pay for it.

Posted by: Joe at July 30, 2008 09:42 PM


The Iranian military has some very smart leaders. They aren't stupid like alot of their neighbors. They still have some generals and high ranking officals who were trained in the US and know western tactics very well. To think this attack would be a cake walk for either the US or Israel would be a mistake.

Iran will not sit back and take an attack like Iraq did time and again. There will probably be a price to pay for whoever attacks them. And who would blame them for trying to defend themselves....

J

Posted by: Jeff at July 30, 2008 09:40 PM


Florida, Georgia, Ohio & Michigan.

SPOONER: You might find THIS LINK useful.

Posted by: Rob1855 at July 30, 2008 09:30 PM


The question is whether a single large package would suffice, or a week or two of continuous attack is required.

A short attack would be entirely dependent on intel of the moment without chance of follow-up. The losses to the strike package would probably be low, but it also takes a lot to hit the correct targets the first time. Israel is very capable of this attack, and it worked against Iraq, but still has serious limitations.

A sustained attack could benefit from special ops, intel gathered during the attack, and lots of opportunity for follow-up for missed and new targets. But it would have to continue in the face of the inevitable political demands for the raid to stop once it has started.

I am doubtful that Israel can sustain a prolonged attack, for both military and political reasons. Only the USA could sustain a durable attack. The other neighbors in the region are hardly capable of anything. But Israel has the most political freedom in pulling the trigger. We shall see what happens.

Posted by: Smith at July 30, 2008 07:56 PM


John Spooner:

First, I want to ask you to treat everybody with respect. My believe is that a lot of the world's problems can be solved by treating other people with respect, maybe even moreso if they are your advisaries.

Secondly, maybe you can explain to me why a oil rich country like Iran puts billions of dollars in a nuclear project, when Iran has a screaming inflation, and lots of people live in poverty.

Third, I do not like the Iranian political system at all. I recent every bit of it. I favor Trias Politica. But I also know that the Iranian system also gives a calm in a volatil middle east. So I don't like the idea of bombing a country if you don't know what the future of the country is going to bring. My believe is that you cannot bomb a country to submission if you not follow up with a ground campaign of some sort. Especially when the country you are attacking a country that totally is controlling the public believes/minds.

Posted by: pleuris at July 30, 2008 07:32 PM


It's my opinion that the Zionist terrorist government Israel has created enough commotion in the on this planet and currently in the middle east that it is time for the American people to unite and declare political, commercial, financial and diplomatic ties. We should demand that the collection of pompous primadonas that were voted into office and the sorriest collection of government officials this nation has ever had, according to polls published does not speak for a majority of Americans. They speak for Democrat and Republican parties that are infected with Council of Foreign Relations, Tri-lateral Commission, Bilderberg stooges and other Domestic enemies who do not comply with the provisions of our constitution or respect and abide by the laws they legislate.

I've been hearing about attacking Iran for as long as there was talk about invading Afghanistan, then invading and occupying Iraq. After all the mammal manure is boiled down, it's not about terrorism, it's not about oil. It's about money, getting the Islamic countries into the Rothschild debt system like out Federal Reserve System; it's about establishing flunky governments into those countries and to reduce the threat to Israel. Americans probably don't remember when the Shah was installed in Iran, I'm sure thr Iranians do. Which side did wall street and the world bank finance during the Iran Iraq war, both sides.

If Israel Zionists attack Iran it's time for American voters and tax payers to cut the umbilical of foreign relations. For the USA Inc to assist would be the biggest of the four mistakes they have made so far in instigating military action and using 911 "Pearl Harbor" incident to generate permission from said voters and tax payers. Iran has treaties with both Russia and China.

John Spooner
Ghost Trooper

Posted by: John Spooner Sr at July 30, 2008 06:51 PM


I don't think they'd use medium range missiles on Iran, something about that reeks of hypocrisy.

Posted by: Jeff M at July 30, 2008 06:50 PM


I know it won't happen but it would be something to see Israel throw a wild card and use a few conventionally tipped ballistic missile in a decapitation strike.

It would throw one hell of a marker out there (especially if successful). No I don't really think the current crop of Israeli leadership has the sack to go there. The benefit would be letting Iran know that strikes could continue at will/unstoppable as fast as Israel could pump out the missiles. Would let the world know Israel would not allow tin horns talking about there goal/version of holocaust.

Sometimes when you are the little guy trapped in a box with a bunch of predators your only hope is to be understood as a little crazy and quick with the steel just lookin for it. Not good to actually be crazy but just give the impression of being so to the predators looking for some prey.

Posted by: C-Low at July 30, 2008 06:46 PM


Also, Israel has also demonstrated publicly capabilities that far exceed what this analysis suggest.

-DA

Posted by: DarthAmerica at July 30, 2008 06:17 PM


This analysis is completely inaccurate. Iran doesn't have S-300 systems. Somebody didn't do their homework...


BTW, the MIT students are not qualified to do the analysis although it's not too bad. It's just dated and doesn't consider some very important strategic, technical and political factors. Google Osiral Redux to find it or click here:

web.mit.edu/ssp/Publications/working_papers/wp_06-1.pdf

-DA

Posted by: DarthAmerica at July 30, 2008 06:14 PM


There is also one more possible target... Iranian refineries. Irans military & economy could possibly grind to a halt. Potentially resulting in less funding for Irans nuclear project. And while civil outrage towards Israel might be harsh in the short term... economic hardship & anger for incompetence, could cause feelings of revolt amongst the Iranian populace.

Posted by: Camp at July 30, 2008 05:10 PM


My guess is that the Israeli's won't just bomb nuclear sites, but they will attack the command structure in Iran as well, turn the country upside down. It will take weeks of bombing and will stop only after the international community has screamed and cried as loud as they can. That is the best way to deal with Iran, turn them upside down like Iraq during desert storm, cause widespread social distress, and come back in a decade to clean up the mess. This is the only way to fix the middle east. If they were to only bomb the nuclear sites, they would be rebuilt in a matter of years and the country would be harder to break. If they can destroy the command structure of the country they will set them back decades. Oil wil be $300/barrel.

Posted by: Jeff M at July 30, 2008 04:46 PM


I doubt we would directly act in support of Israel. It is far too useful to turn a blind eye to their activities and say "Hey, what do you want us to do about it? Those Israelis... they so crazy."

Posted by: Brian at July 30, 2008 03:31 PM


Don't discount commando raids to disprupt SAM and AAA sites as well as sub launched cruise missiles.

Posted by: RPB at July 30, 2008 03:22 PM


My guess would be that the Americans use their long range cruise missiles to take out SAM sites, radar sites, ect and use B-2s to take out the deep targets while Israel takes out the fighters and the non buried targets.

Jack

Posted by: Jack at July 30, 2008 03:14 PM


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