Subscribe via RSS

Archives by Date
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009

See all Archives
Archives by Category
'Canes
Afghan Update
Ammo and Munitions
Armor
Around the Globe
Av Week Extra
Axe in Iraq (and Elsewhere)
Bizarro
Blimps
Blog Bidness
Body Armor Blues
Bomb Squad
Brownshoes in Action
Bubbleheads, etc.
Cammo Green
Catch the "Buzz"
Chem-Bio
Civilian Apps
Cloak and Dagger
Commandos
Comms
Contingency Ops
Cops and Robbers
Cyber-warfare
Data Diving
Defense Tech Poll
Defense Tech Radio
Dissent Tech
Door Kickers
Drones
DT Administrivia
Eat DT's Dust
Extra! Extra!
Eye on China
Fast Movers
FCS Watch
Fire for Effect
FOS Files
Friday Funnies
Gadgets and Gear
Going Green
Grand Ole Osprey
Ground Vehicles
Guns
Homeland Security
In the Weeds with Eric
Info War
Iraq Diary
Jarhead Jazz
JSF Watch
Just War Theories
Lasers and Ray Guns
Less-lethal
Logistics
Los Alamos and Labs
M4 Monopoly
Medic!
Mercs
Missiles
Money Money Money
Most Wanted
MRAP Edge
Net-Centric
Nukes
Old Skool
Our Shrinking Planet
Planes, Copters, Blimps
Podcast
Politricks
Polmar's Perspective
Popular Mechanics
Rapid Fire
Raptor Watch
Red Team
Retro-Futuro
Robots
Roll Your Own
Sabra Tech
Ships and Subs
Snipertech
Soldier Systems
Space
Special Ops
Star Wars
Strategery
Stray Trons
Tactical Development
Terror Tech
The Deadlies
The Defense Biz
The Peoples' Site
The Sunday Paper
The Tanker Tango
The View from Av Week
Those Nutty Norks
Training and Sims
Trimble on the Case
Video Lounge
War Update
Ward'z Wonderz
You can run...

See all Archives
Newsletters

Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

War and Peace -- Russian Style

georgia-troops.jpg

The massive Russian air, ground, and naval assault against the country of Georgia is certainly reminiscent of the earlier Soviet assaults against East Germany and Hungry, and, to some degree, the Russian campaign in Chechnya. But there are major differences in the cause of the current conflict and in the world political-military situation from those earlier military operations.

At this writing there were strong indications that the odd situation in the Georgian provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia could have only led to conflict. The border provinces appear to have had Russian “peacekeepers” in them to “protect” the interests of the local populations that include many Russian citizens and sympathizers. According to Russian sources, Georgian troops attacked those Russian troops, although the exact circumstances of the initial exchange are unknown.

In response, after a brief delay, Russian forces invaded the two provinces, taking control after inflicting heavy civilian casualties -- some press reports cited approximately 2,000 deaths. But the Russian troops, carried in armored personnel carriers and supported by aircraft and helicopters, continued into Georgia, reportedly coming within 12 miles of the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.

In addition to civilian (and military casualties), Georgia has suffered perhaps 100,000 people being uprooted, and severe damage to towns and cities.

Georgian troops -- trained and partially equipped by the United States -- were unable to withstand the Russian onslaught. As this blog was written it appears that the Russian government has accepted the truce, brokered in part by the French government.

Why did the Kremlin order the land-air-sea assault on its weaker neighbor? Obviously, the Russian regime is concerned about South Ossetia and Abkhazia and their large Russian populations. There were certainly other factors. American influence in Georgia has been increasing over the past few years; when the Russian assault began there were 35 U.S. civilian contractors and almost 100 military personnel in Georgia to help train the army. More than 1,000 U.S. troops -- including reservists and national guardsmen -- were recently in Georgia for a joint exercise.

Further, Georgia has been seeking full membership in NATO. The continued expansion of NATO since the end of the Cold War, especially including Eastern European states, has particularly been a concern of the Russian government. This situation has been exacerbated by recent U.S. proposals to build advanced X-band ballistic missile detection radar in the Czech Republic and base ten interceptor missiles in Poland. The stated rationale for these installations is to protect Western European countries from long-range missiles launched by rogue states, including Iran. The perspective from the Kremlin, however, is that these defenses -- and other U.S.-sponsored military activities -- as well as the missile defenses are part of an American campaign to encircle the Russian state.

Thus, some Western officials and analysts see the Russian action in Georgia, beyond the obvious intent of protecting Russian citizens and sympathizers in the border provinces, as a clear message to the United States that further expansion American political-military influence in Eastern Europe will not be tolerated.

Meanwhile, the U.S. government is attempting to gain support for political actions by Western European countries and the United Nations, hopefully to censor Russia. There is no possibility that the United States will take military action against Russia, or immediately rush to the support of the shattered Georgian army.

-- Norman Polmar

Comments

I'd like to toss my 2 cents on this issue for just one reason. I'm a south american from Brasil watching left wingers control many presidencies and governments all over the place, our president founding an organization pro URSS - south american version. It's going on just now. Leftist agenda always will be about domination, centralism, and death. Lets not forguet their inspiring leaders (Stalin, Lenin, Mao Tsé, Ho Chi, Adolph Hitler - yes the leader of Socialist Working Party in Germany). Enough said I may be bitter but I'm sorry to say that have no hope for Georgians once they're under Europes watch and EU will do what they know better - compromise.

Posted by: Rain Man at August 27, 2008 04:23 PM


Hello,

Being Russian just couldn't miss out the opportunity to comment on this. First of all, let me assure you, that I believe the war is dirty business and no way I support the fueling of war and just hope it will be finally muted down and no more fighting erupts.

Abkhazia and Osettiya separatism has its long roots even from the Soviet times and before that and both were made into Georgian SSR (sub-state inside USSR) at Stalin's time. Stalin, being Georgian, was very fond of bringing new territories into his homeland republic. Georgians were very happy to dominate over the two and there were tensions between them even in Soviet times. Can you imagine what it meant in Soviet times to have tensions between regions? It meant they were desperate.

Now getting back to the latest events, I do think it was very clear that these two provinces do not want to be inside Georgia. Hell, just basically like Georgia didn't want to be part of USSR at the Soviet collapse.

Georgia tried to 'pacify' both provinces with force in post-Soviet time and failed. Russia certainly didn't want another war to boil on its southern border and having seen that Georgia is going to try forceful resolution once again has stated just number of times that we will not let this happen. Not because of any territorial interest (we have plenty of land, you know), but because war always bring in terrorists of all sort and this is not what we would like to see on Caucasus.

However, Georgia played its move, and my country has shown that it is going to defend its interests even with force if necessary. All in all, USA is doing it quite fine in Kosovo and Iraq, and this is just the statement that if US thinks it's ok to do it, then we think the same - we will ALSO defend our interests with force. Or USA denies us the right it has for itself?

Well, this is it. I know there are accusations that 'Russians were prepared'. Huh, and you thought our intel sucks? Obviously Russia knew that Georgia is gathering forces and prepared.

Regards,
euge.

Posted by: Eugene at August 26, 2008 11:51 AM


There are reports that have come in of Russian soldiers complaining that they were told this was supposed to be a training exercise before the shooting started.
This would account for the "rag tag" look and lack of preparedness on the part of the Russians. The troops themselves didn't know it was a full build up and the leadership wanted it that way. I think it was here:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/08/photos-of-the-r.html
Georgia is a threat to Russia's oil supremacy in that region. Right now, Russia can threaten smaller countries into submission (in Europe) because they get alot of their oil, fuel, and natural gas from them through the pipeline. Georgia had their own pipeline. Notice where the Russian troops headed? Yep, threatened the pipeline and took over stratigic points in relation to the pipe line and transportation in Georgia. They crippled their only competition.

And people bitch at the US about "war for oil"

Oh, and if this was just about "protecting Russian citizens" why didn't they stop once they got to the boundries of the disputed territories? Why are they now pulling in offensive weapons like SS-21 missiles?

And lets not forget that Russia just threatened "more than diplomacy" over Poland wanting air defenses and missile interceptor missiles...only bullies threaten escalation in response to defensive measures.

Oh, and maybe you can explain how dropping incindiaries into a national forest to start a forest fire is defending Russian citizens in Georgia? (Photos are below the pictures on the Atlas Shrugs 2000 page I linked)

Posted by: coolhand77 at August 22, 2008 08:14 AM


Theyv got our pasports.
2000 people dead. See these Russian burning tanks. everybody knows that when a tank colony is shelled few dozen civlian will die caus tanks will seek shelter in grovds and use human shield. But cause 2000 died it means they hit A LOT of other civilian pasports.
Those poor old women with blood whiped out all over their face SAID that they supported Russian and as you saw their houses were full of holes and partially collapsed. Try to see now -we got attacked. - No you didnt EVER get attacked hahaha. DAMN

Posted by: Hmm at August 22, 2008 08:05 AM


Johnny the Bull,

Au contraire, mon frere. I rather like the Russian people. They have a rich history, a beautiful culture, and an intriguing language. It is however, dispiriting to watch as Russia seemingly slips from freedom, and falls under the yoke of tyranny & isolation once more.

As for the artillery, it's a possibility... but no more than conjecture at this point. One example would be the Roki tunnel, which is about 35-40km north of the city Tskhinvali. A few Russian forces were reported to have begun exiting the tunnel 3-4 hours, after Georgian soldiers were occupying villages in South Ossetia. Nine hours later, Georgian forces supposedly had taken control of Tskhinvali. And 6 hours after that the Georgians were starting to be pushed out of the city, to the outskirts. With such a tight time table, I have a feeling things were flying in every direction.

Regarding the use of Grad unguided MLRS on populated cities, such action (by either side) is reprehensible. But as to the earlier point. Most civilians don't know how to conduct BDA, and probably didn't even know Russia was in the fight at the time.

You were right about the casualties, it's now being reported as 133 dead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm

"Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage..."

"Russia/Georgia: Investigate Civilian Deaths"
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm
.
.
"Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today."

"Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians"
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm

Video:
http://hrw.org/video/2008/georgia08/georgia_clusters.html
.
.
"Russian military forces remain in Gori and the surrounding villages since advancing from South Ossetia on August 13, 2008. They have denied access to some humanitarian missions seeking to assist civilians. The UN, which has described the humanitarian situation in Gori as "desperate," has been able to deliver only limited food supplies to the city."

"Russia/Georgia: Militias Attack Civilians in Gori Region"
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/16/georgi19630.htm
.
.
No matter how this plays out... It's always the innocent who suffer the most. God Bless.

Posted by: Camp at August 21, 2008 11:24 PM


"taking control after inflicting heavy civilian casualties -- some press reports cited approximately 2,000 deaths."

After this, I begin to wander at this website objectivity. Turning things upsidedown (better call it outrageous lie)is an example of Western values? Georgia has shelled S.Ossetia for about two day, by the time Russian troops arrived S. Ossetia capital was not far from Stalingrad. And by that time there already were that many casualties. Russia came in to protect Ossetians, ever thought about asking civillians Ossetians about this. Are U so dumb to think that Ossetians would ask Russia to protect it further after it "inflicting heavy civilian casualties". If you consider yourself a normal person, make a correction, otherwise go to hell all of you.

Posted by: antherion at August 21, 2008 08:12 PM


Duncan Kinder, you're just too good. I admit, arming , even founding Al-Qaida was a master stroke of genius by the US COIN community. It sure gave the USSR a bloody nose. Now, taking lessons from H'zballato do the same again would be another awe-inspiring action. (But then again...)

Jimbo Jones, thanks for the IMINT link. For the rest, it's all business as usual, innit?

Posted by: AMSSFO at August 21, 2008 07:22 AM


Sounds to me like defending the rights of German citizens living in Austria and Czechoslovakia in 1938... meh

Posted by: VileFather at August 21, 2008 05:05 AM


"It's not. Every citizen of the former Soviet Union is entitled to a Russian passport. It's natural that a lot of South Ossetians would get themselves one in case Georgia comes knocking (which they did).
Posted by: bleh2 at August 20, 2008 07:52 PM"

Oh fuck off will you with your propaganda BS.

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at August 21, 2008 03:48 AM


"And don't insult our intelligence by saying you meant that people with Russian issued passports were "Russian". Russia did that on purpose to manufacture its claim to the area. Those people are not really Russian. It is a fraud."

It's not. Every citizen of the former Soviet Union is entitled to a Russian passport. It's natural that a lot of South Ossetians would get themselves one in case Georgia comes knocking (which they did).

Similarily there's quite a lot of "Germans" in Israel because every descendant of victims of the 3rd Reich (i.e. half of Israel) can get a German passport and whenever the Mideast conflict turns hot a lot of them do just as a fallback option.

Posted by: bleh2 at August 20, 2008 07:52 PM


You hear about Russia stealing the windows from the military base in Senaki?

That is pretty sad. Maybe they saw "Made in the USA" on the window panes or something. Maybe the Russian military thinks that windows have a definite strategic importance on a military base, so they had to remove them.

Maybe the Russians thought if they stole the windows, the Georgians wouldn't be able to see them coming if they attack again... lol..

Posted by: Ptsfp at August 20, 2008 12:14 PM


@ Duncan Kinder,

yeah i'd say theres masses of scope for unconventional warfare by Georgian troops. As long as they stay legal: as in wearing uniforms, only targeting military etc etc i'd be more then happy to see them use mines, EFP roadside devices, sniping etc. Who gives a sht if we (NATO) supply them, Russian weapons are always somehow finding there way into the forces we oppose so its fair game. Those shitty Russian troops would be easy pickings for a determined well armed force as long as the attackers shoot and scoot pretty damn quick .

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at August 20, 2008 10:25 AM


"Oh and here's a good roundup of some of the bull:

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/08/russia-georgia-disinformation.htmlPosted by: Johnny the Bull at August 20, 2008 03:16 AM"

Yeah good if your a Russian propaganda officer, the guy knows his mil stuff but is a clear Russia apolagist and fanboy, notice how he forgot to mention any Russian propaganda/bullshit such as the 2000 deaths that turned out to be 46 deaths according to HRW.

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at August 20, 2008 10:18 AM


I, for one, would find it useful and instructive to discuss what asymmetric strategies Georgia could have used - or perhaps more interestingly - could still use.

Obviously Georgia has no chance in matching Russia tank for tank; but Hezbollah recently repelled Israel under arguably analogous circumstances.

Arguments to the effect that my question is naive for various technical reasons would be well taken, and I shall accept them with good cheer as instructive.

Yet I am puzzled that this seemingly obvious question is not being raised.

Posted by: Duncan Kinder at August 20, 2008 09:03 AM


Oh, and give us our damn Humvees back! they aren't trophies.

Posted by: Sgt JFK at August 20, 2008 08:35 AM


Oh, and give us our damn Humvees back! they aren't trophies.

Posted by: Sgt JFK at August 20, 2008 08:35 AM


Oh and here's a good roundup of some of the bull:

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/08/russia-georgia-disinformation.html

The georgians are more sinned against than sinning but they are still sinners. Which is why they shouldn't be let into nato. It's not that they don't deserve to be protected against the Bear, but that the US shouldn't be writing blank cheques to small backwards nations who still have a couple of intractable blood feuds needing settlement. Because I think the Balkans showed us how they end up being settled. Come to think of it, the Russian/Soviet Empire was only European empire that didn't have its ethnicities nicely sorted out into homogenous countries in the wake of WWII, which is why it's been such a bumpy ride since the 90's.

Posted by: Johnny the Bull at August 20, 2008 03:16 AM


@Camp

In regards to the majority of damage to Tskinvali being done by the Georgians: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm

The two thousand casualties is probably inflated but even if it was one hundred the point is the same. In morality, intent is what matters. And the Georgians at the very least showed a murderous disregard in using their Grad MLRS against a city.

And for the Russians to have been responsible for the intial bombardment, they would have been lobbing shells from North Ossetia clear across the Caucusus mountains, something clearly impossible. And while Soviet doctrine did generally call for mass firepower superiority, I think the Russians have learned the lesson from Grozny that it isn't effective in urban environments, notwithstanding that they would have been lobbing shells onto the heads of their own peacekeepers and allied Ossetian militias.

You may not have a high opinion of the Russian people but they take as dim a view of shooting their own comrades as any other people. Unless they are trying to surrender to the enemy, of course.

Posted by: Johnny the Bull at August 20, 2008 03:10 AM


so any more about the alledged 2000 dead south ossetians? Last i heard HRW said that they only found 45 dead and none of the 'flooding basements' bull that the Russians had been peddling. Be nice if DT could do an article cutting through the propaganda (from both sides) and find out some genuine facts about this upset.

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at August 20, 2008 02:52 AM


Why are they trying to censor Russia, exactly? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Perhaps he means "censure"?

Posted by: Dr. Curiosity at August 20, 2008 12:22 AM


"Obviously, the Russian regime is concerned about South Ossetia and Abkhazia and their large Russian populations."

Wrong.

In Abkhazia, ethnic Russians are a small minority, something like 10% of the population, with over twice as many Georgians.

In South Ossetia, ethnic Russians are only a couple percent, as opposed to tens of thousands of georgians.

Meanwhile, there are far more ethnic Russians in Georgia itself than in Abkhazia and South Ossetia combined.

Please, get your facts straight. I expect a higher level of discourse on this blog. Claiming that Russia invaded to protect ethnic Russians is just silly.

And don't insult our intelligence by saying you meant that people with Russian issued passports were "Russian". Russia did that on purpose to manufacture its claim to the area. Those people are not really Russian. It is a fraud.

Posted by: Kaltes at August 19, 2008 11:12 PM


US actions to take:
o Carrier group to Black Sea?
>Iffy - that would require Turkey to choose a side. And there is not much a CAG could do unless an invitation was extended by Georgia and was accepted by Washington.

o Recon overflights over from Italy
>I'd imagine satellites are doing fine, and they don't have airspace issues with those.

o Change treaties since 1917.
>After the Russian Civil War, the Allies no longer cared about this area of the world and let whomever wanted it the most have it. Not much has changed.

o SAC bombers over Russia?
>A fast way to start a nuclear war.

o Beef up Japan defenses.
>A better counter for China and North Korea, although the Japanese are mixed on this thought. I agree that they could be more assertive on their own right.

o Make Public Russian horrors.
>Which horrors? Nobody really knows who did what. The media generally hasn't been smart enough to figure out who was shooting at whom and when. If you show a photograph of an atrocity, it becomes a circle of fingers as to who it was and who did it. And since everybody did something bad there at one point, each side can counter with its own accusations. This confusion favors the Russian side as it confuses western observers.

o make Putin like a latter day Stalin?
>Thank God that Putin is not a Stalin. Putin does have his issues, but as a student of Russian history there is a big difference between the two. And again, it is easy for Putin to counter propoganda with propoganda because the world has a fuzzy lense into this region. You may make some accusations stick in western minds but not enough to spur any action. Putin has left enough space for the western world to wiggle out of any thoughts of intervention.

Posted by: Smith at August 19, 2008 10:29 PM


I'm not so sure Russia orchestrated this from the beginning. The composition of Russian forces seems to indicate a "come as you are" war, so although the local military district was probably in a perpetual state of readiness (as would be expected), it wasn't waiting on a known date to go into action. Also, Georgia's timing was probably the best time slot they could find for the rest of the year for maximum advantage. I suspect Georgia expected to have absorbed South Ossetia before Russia could respond and therefore present a fait accompli, but got bogged down and Russia's reflex was much harder and faster than anticipated.

But Russia is handling the situation very well from their side. They have not listened to the U.S. at all but throttle the conflict through France instead. They know that NATO knows that Georgia rolled the dice to begin with and therefore is confident that NATO will have no will to get involved. This shows they are getting more adept at managing diplomacy.

>James: The Georgian offensive was orchestrated by Israeli advisors.

I'm only aware of Israeli weapons being present, which is something they export across the globe. Do you have a source saying how they planned the initial Georgian attack? That's a much different level of involvement. Russia was mad at Israel because Israeli weapons in Georgian hands took out a surprising amount of Russian armor.

>Roy Smith: We need to remind Russia of the Monroe Doctrine(that is if we still believe in it).

I think that's a solid "no". The Monroe doctrine was set forth in 1823, before the Industrial Revolution and when the entire world was agrarian. The world is unrecognizable now.

Posted by: Smith at August 19, 2008 10:09 PM


US actions to take:
o Carrier group to Black Sea?
o Recon overflights over from Italy
o ready hospitals in Germany.
o Lobby Russia
o Change treaties since 1917.
o SAC bombers over Russia?
o Beef up Japan defenses.
o Make Public Russian horrors.
o make Putin like a latter day Stalin?

Posted by: stephen russell at August 19, 2008 09:43 PM


Johnny the Bull,

I've been wondering about the destruction reported in South Ossetia. Old Soviet (and now Russian) doctrine is to use overwhelming Artillery & Air Support, to "clear" the areas ahead of maneuver (ground) elements.

With that in mind, and just a theory. When the Georgians had taken the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. The Russians immediate response for a counter attack, would have been with preparatory artillery fire & CAS. The civilians would most likely have associated the indirect fire & destruction with the Georgians, because the Russians weren't anywhere in sight at the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7558619.stm
.
.
Regarding the Human Rights Watch & Ossetian casualties, I found this:

"Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".
"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated.""

"Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia
.
.
And why hasn't the ICRC been allowed to gain access South Ossetia? It's been 10 days.

"Following a positive meeting on 19 August ... the organization is hopeful that it will soon be granted access to South Ossetia."

http://icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/georgia-update-190808

Where did you find the info for your statement, "most Ossetian casualties occurred during the initial Georgian attack"?

Regards.

Posted by: Camp at August 19, 2008 09:22 PM


The way your article was written makes it seem like the Russians were responsible, during the counterattack, for the claimed 2,000 casualties in South Ossetia. Actually (and this has recently been confirmed by Human Rights Watch), most Ossetian casualties occured during the initial Georgian attack, when those brave Georgian sons of liberty launched a massive indiscriminate artillery bombardment on a population centre.

Also, Camp, that NY Post article is wrong - "Scorched Earth" was the the codename for the Georgian military's initial assault. But you are correct, the Vostok battalion (Chechens fighting for the Russians) are noted a bunch of looters, murderers, rapists, and thugs.

Posted by: Johnny the Bull at August 19, 2008 08:14 PM


NATO needs to send a heavily armed "peacekeeping" force into Georgia. In order to setup a "buffer zone" and keep the Georgians out of Russian Territory. Turkey could serve as a place to support "humanitarian flights".
.
.
"DEVIL SENT DOWN TO GEORGIA - RUSSIA UNLEASHES CHECHEN THUGS"
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08182008/news/columnists/devil_sent_down_to_georgia_124993.htm

"OVER the weekend, photographic proof emerged that the Russians used murderous Chechen mercenaries to do their dirtiest dirty work in Georgia: The ragtag unit in question is so vicious that, last April, Chechnya's Russian-installed "president" demanded it be disbanded."

...

"Contrary to Russian claims that "volunteers" from the North Caucasus rushed in to aid their South Ossetian brethren, we now have proof that the Kremlin sent in hired guns. It's no accident that Putin's code-name for this operation is "Scorched Earth."

And there's plenty else to be outraged about - not all of it Russia's fault. Images of dead and disfigured Georgian soldiers show them wearing US-surplus canteens, boots and helmets, or equipped with antique US anti-tank weapons. After the Georgians did all their tiny country could to support us in Iraq, all we gave them was cast-off junk - thanks to Congress and the State Department.

Our military was only allowed to train the Georgians for peacekeeping, anti-terrorism and small-unit tactics. The Georgians gave us all they had, and we gave them crap. The Bush administration should hang its wobbly head in shame.

Meanwhile, Chechen rapists and butchers are celebrating - and picking over the US gear the Russians captured and didn't even want.""
.
.
I wonder why Russia the ICRC can't get into South Ossetia?
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav081808a.shtml
.
.
Timelines:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4514939.ece
http://digitalseance.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/russian-invasion-of-georgia-timeline/

An old read:
"CHECHNYA: Russia's Experience of Asymmetrical Warfare"
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/chechnya-pr.cfm
.
.
It's too bad the US doesn't have any dirigibles capable of air-lifting large amounts of supplies & equipment into areas like Georgia.

Cheers! :)

Posted by: Camp at August 19, 2008 06:35 PM


Great,
Talk about moral equivalence, that is the comparison of Kosovo independence from an indicted genocidal regime, Serbia, to the so-called "Russian minorities" in Georgian Ossetia. Just for clarrification, how many ethnic Russians died in Georgian concentration camps?
In terms of US comparisons, that does not wash either because when Russia brutally put down the Chechnyan revolt, the US did not say a word.
I guess history, even recent history is hard to get straight.

Posted by: GVP at August 19, 2008 05:38 PM


I have to agree with PJC on this one. But one important "minor" detail was left out. The Georgian offensive was orchestrated by Israeli advisors. Not only did Russia reprise the Georgians for their aggression, but it will soon do so to the Israelis. Possible ways they may do this are by: 1)selling advanced air defense systems to Iran, 2)placing cruise missles at their naval base in Lebanon, 3)covertly assassinating various Israeli spys or all of the above. This really could not have come at a worse time for the mideast.

Posted by: James at August 19, 2008 04:39 PM


Russia just wants to be the burr in our saddles,the pebble in our shoes,the wedgie in our underwear.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 19, 2008 04:09 PM


Nah, It was pretty clear that Russians were completely prepared and antagonised the Georgians. There is no way that they would have been able to move that much armor and troops in such a short time without pre-planning.

And if it were just a "Police action" they would have just pushed the Georgians out of Ossetia and stopped. Instead they attacked Georgian villages and port cities (Poti, an oil shipping port)way away from Ossetia and for what?

Russia has lied all along the way, and they continue to do so. They are supposed to be pulling out and they are still in Poti, nowhere near the conflict, "arresting" Georgian soldiers. Also, there are many reports of them digging in.

No, they had this planned all along. If they do pull out, they will have destroyed so much of Georgi's infrastructure that it will take a long time to recover.

Posted by: Ptsfp at August 19, 2008 04:09 PM


I think that Russia,rather than build up her weapons systems,would rather be a joker in the mix concerning separatist movements.
Just like China,she'll try to find proxies to fight her wars for her.
We were naive to think that we could just get Georgia & the Ukraine to join NATO & Russia would just let it happen.The Ukraine & Moldova both have separatist movements that Russia can & will exploit. Russia used Armenia to destabilise Azerbaijan in the breakaway Nogorno-Karabakh region. Russia is using ethnic Russians to destabilise & keep in turmoil the former Soviet Central Asian States(most of whom are already in the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation with Russia & China).
Russia could very well exploit the silly ass groups in our nation,like I said in my earlier post,who are spouting separation of one sort or the other. Domestic groups that we wouldn't naturally take seriously but laugh at,Russia could make "serious" threats. Russia is already trying to put her bombers in Cuba(joining China as a potential threat there) & is sending a Russian Naval Fleet to Venezuela. While we "scoff" at all of this,we should also be vigilant & "protecting" of our back yard as Russia is of hers.We need to remind Russia of the Monroe Doctrine(that is if we still believe in it).

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 19, 2008 03:53 PM


I can't help thinking that the reporting of this tragic affair has been grossly one-sided (certainly here in the UK) and, just in case anyone had missed it, Georgia was the aggressor. President Mikheil Saakashvili made a very grave error in underestimating the Russians - relying heavily on his belief that Georgia was already in some sort of safe haven of Western support. If anything, the uncompromising reaction by the Russians was entirely predictable (and characteristically savage).

The waters have become muddied by the excesses of the S. Ossetian militia elements and pro-Russian civilians. This, combined with the larger global political aims of the Russian leadership (that is, building the Federation into a regenerated superpower) and their wish to stamp out any thoughts of similar actions by other former Soviet states, has blurred that original fact. The fact that Georgia took it upon itself to enrage the bear, in the full knowledge of the retaliation it could expect, calculating that the end result would be a strengthening of ties with the West. And in this, they might well have succeeded. But at what cost?

Posted by: PJC at August 19, 2008 02:46 PM


thanks for reporting everything that is already known. albeit after the entire conflict. keeping out all details but general death counts helps my small mind understand it easier too. *sarcasm*

Posted by: Bubba at August 19, 2008 02:33 PM


It would be funny(although not so much) if the Russians decided to both recognise & aid "Separatist" movements in the U.S. like the ones trying to make Puerto Rico independent,or those nuts who took over that former palace in Hawaii to install a king,or La Raza/Aztlan trying to rejoin the southwest U.S. states with Mexico,or maybe even Vermont independence. I know that all of these "movements" are B.S. jokes,but Russia could stick their noses into them & give them legitimacy,both to pay us back for Kosovo & to keep us off-balanced while they try to retake the former Soviet States that broke away & became independent.
I'm just saying that Russia could turn benign domestic curiosities & "jokes" that these local separatist movements are into legitimate threats.

Posted by: Roy Smith at August 19, 2008 01:44 PM


Post a comment




Remember Me?


Please enter the code as seen in the image below to post your comment.