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Edited by Christian Lowe \| Contact

Read Ahead: Duck! It Won't Do You Any Good...

I know you guys are probably noticing that we've had a good amount of weapons content on DT for the last few months.

Part of the reason is because after reporting one gun story, you tend to get tidbits of information on another, then another from that, then another from that.

When I spoke with Rich Audette on the Army's search for a new carbine a couple weeks ago, he mentioned to me that the Army was ready to test shoot a new weapon that could revolutionize infantry combat as we know it (my words not his...but his were close).

I just wrapped up the story and put it to bed, and we're going to post it tomorrow morning at Military.com, but I wanted to give you all a head's up here.

Army to Test Air Burst Weapon for Joes

For once it seems the Army is actually turning fiction into science.

After nearly a decade in the shadows - with billions spent on earlier versions long since abandoned - the Army is hurtling along to field a revolutionary new weapon to Joes a lot sooner than anyone had ever imagined.

It's a weapon that can take out a bad guy behind a wall, beyond a hill or below a trench, more accurately and with less collateral damage than anything on the battlefield today, officials say. It's called the XM25 Individual Air Burst Weapon, and by next month the service will have three prototypes of the precision-guided 25mm rifle ready for testing.

"We've done a lot of testing with this and what we're seeing is the estimated increase in effectiveness is six times what we'd be getting with a 5.56mm carbine or a grenade launcher," said Rich Audette, Army Deputy Project Manager for Soldier weapons.

"What we're talking about is a true 'leap ahead' in lethality, here. This is a huge step," Audette added during a phone interview with Military.com from his office at Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey.

Born of the much-maligned and highly-controversial Objective Individual Combat Weapon - a 1990s program that sought a "leap ahead" battle rifle that combined a counter-defilade weapon with a carbine -- the XM25 has only recently gained new momentum after the Army formalized a requirement and released a contract in June for a series of test weapons.

-- Christian

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Posted by: angel at October 16, 2008 04:15 AM

Posted by: angel at October 16, 2008 04:14 AM

The XM-307 would have been a good addition for troops on foot. Its not all that heavy, and having that kind of firepower with you is worth a real hard look. Its rate of fire isn't that of the M2, but you will bust ur back humping that thing around. Just not practical. Hk continues to field weapons that are well made, reliable, but cannot get a major contract. Wat surprised me about the "shoot test", was the M-8 had the least amount of stoppages. The problem is the polymer stock, which tends to heat up especially on full auto.

Posted by: Rhyno327/lrsd at October 3, 2008 09:24 AM

Hi.Forgive my imposition.I stumbled here from reading an article re Iraq Vets detained @ Bragg. I guess u could say curiosity brought me here.I am a civilian and extremely curious about how enlisted folks feel about the war, and about the upcoming elections.Regardless of anyone's opinion I'd like to say "Thank You" to u all for your dedication and sacrifice.Our country is endebted to u and your families.Where-ever u find yourselves u can know someone(actually lots of people) pray for u and yours. God bless and keep u
safe always.

Posted by: 4evrgr8ful at September 30, 2008 02:49 AM

I want one! 25mm rocks!

Posted by: bier451 at September 29, 2008 09:10 PM

I you hit someone with a 25mm x an inch or whatever it is designed to go 600meters accurately, if it will fire it will hurt whoever gets hit, even it doesn't go off. And I seriously remember OICW having a flechette round that was going on with it. 50meters with like 16 darts or something, that would be a room cleaner.

Posted by: txzen at September 29, 2008 08:25 PM

I don't see bayonet lug on that piece. With a minimum effective range of 16m I'd think you might want that.

Posted by: snuffy at September 29, 2008 09:31 AM

Well, I guess this comment is for some of the nay-sayers and such. The reason the 25mm was chosen rather than 40mm was due to recoil forces and velocities (at least that's what I heard). The m-203 and the blooper used a low velocity 40mm grenade, not the High velocity type used in the mk. 19. You must be an absolute monster to fire the HV version from a shoulder stocked weapon. The LV version gave good shrapnel effects but was extremely limited for trajectory and velocity. Don't get me wrong, I love my 203, but it doesn't have the range they were looking for. By going with the 25mm they could use a projectile that was compatible with current cannon ammunition, rather than starting the design process all over. The 25mm was also found to create much larger pieces of shrapnel than the 20mm originally prototyped for the oicw program. Bigger shrapnel=better wounding. The 25 mm also gives a fairly high velocity/flat trajectory without breaking your collarbone. In other words, you don't have to lob it so much, and you won't get hurt everytime you shoot it(which means you don't flinch and achieve greater accuracy).

Posted by: Chad at September 26, 2008 05:12 PM

I used to be in the 82nd Airborne (3-505 PIR) and did a tour in Asscrackistan. To the people who say that this is too complicated to be used effectively in combat I think you should refamiliarize yourself with modern weapons, the TOW Missle with an ITAZ (nomenclature is probably wrong... as is my spelling of the word "nomenclature") sighting system is an extremely complicated piece of equipment that we have sucessfully implimented in stressfull combat enviroments dozens of times. Fixing a weapon jam on a M2 50 cal mid fire fight is also a pretty "techincal" and not exactly easy task. The infantry is used to performing complicated tasks in strssful situations, I dont' think that "this weapon is too complicated to use" is a valid argument. I havn't used this piece of equipment but I am willing to bet that it operates in almost exactly the same way as a standard M4, you sight the target, paint it with your lazer, probably press a button once you have the target aquired, squeeze the trigger, target dies. Your really only adding 1, maybe 2 steps to the process. The sighting system probably runs off of a few AA batteries which can be carried in your pocket; and I am willing to be that one set of batteries lasts atleast a week. I am also willing to bet that if the sights go down that you can still fire this weapon manually without using all the fancy features built into the sights. Trust me, this weapon will go into production, I've been out of the Army since 2003 and I remember that way back then they were working on this and had been for several years.

Posted by: Zeus Hanover at September 26, 2008 03:42 PM

Anon,

It has a laser rangefinder. The target is hiding behind a low wall. You point the laser at the wall and it determines how far away it is (say, 100 meters). You press a button on the weapon and it sets the detonation for 101 meters. You aim and shoot the grenade directly over the wall. The grenade will explode just as it passes the wall, thus denying the effects of cover.

Posted by: Brian at September 26, 2008 10:11 AM

Interesting gun... though with all of these future/smart weapons, I really think that these are all like concept cars that won't ever get mass produced the way we see them.

I agree with Vstress when he says that the rifle will most likely remain strong for years.

Simple is key. Simplicity in design and use, then stopping power. Well, in the heat of things, I assume stopping power would be the first priority... But simplicity leads to greater accuracy, I would imagine.

Posted by: Mike P at September 26, 2008 10:08 AM

Yah, that would be about a 4 gauge shotgun shell (1 inch bore). Not a bad idea. Bring back the H&K bullpup semi auto shotgun with brass cased tungsten shot...wait, it almost IS!

Posted by: coolhand77 at September 26, 2008 09:54 AM

I'm surprised noone has said anything about the fact that this weapon looks really quite poor in close combat! Maybe if we rechamber the round for shot? I don't know, but it seems to me this might be a replacement for the machine gun - who's tracers usually leave him exposed to counter-fire. I don't see it replacing much else!

I presume the rifle will still remain strong for years to come!

Posted by: Vstress at September 26, 2008 09:15 AM

Your article does not explain anything about how this weapon is supposed to work.

Posted by: anon at September 26, 2008 08:09 AM

What would a battle look like between 2 equal armies who both had this weapon that met on a neutral battlefield? (In other words, one side has not dug in and constructed fixed armoured fighting positions.)

Fighting into positions & provide covering fire as well as many other infantry solder techniques might be a thing of the past.

My prediction is that we would need more robots, more fighting vehicles, more air power/missiles, etc., and less infantry in this type of scenario.

Can you imagine WWI where both sides had these? No more trenches, just run out and engage and get it over with.

Posted by: Sam O'Grady at September 26, 2008 07:54 AM

Might have niche applications, but it's a bit of a lightweight compared to 40mm grenade launchers. And it's had so many technical problems getting this farthat you have to wonder.

Posted by: Wembley at September 26, 2008 06:58 AM

"Three bollocks posts that make no sense/
Posted by: cheung shun sang at September 26, 2008 02:15 AM"

You really are the worst troll yet to appear on DT,infact perhaps the worst trolls i've ever seen on the internet. Do yourself a favour and go back to school, failing that just simply go die in a fire as your a useless waste of oxygen.

In other news two members of the 'Religion of peace' (yeah you know who) have been arrested for attempting to hijack an airline in Germany.

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at September 26, 2008 03:24 AM

"Sounds brilliant. So now we can blast away at towns that we've "liberated" and kill lots of civilians whom we never saw (hiding as they were behind those walls we're magically behind or around or some such).

Then we can scratch our heads when those ungrateful wogs insist on carrying on their partisan war with even greater ferocity. Jeez, don't the savages read the brochures for our gadgets?!?! Sez right here, "minimzes collateral damage"!

But I'm sure it'll be a great toy to have after we've blundered our way into a war with **Pakistan**. It's astonishing how quickly the same nation that produced big picture guys like Marshall, Kennan and Eisenhower has devolved into a kind of strategic retard.

Posted by: sglover at September 25, 2008 08:57 PM"

2/10 for that trolling effort Son. Needed alot more thought put into it though as Pakistan is clearly in the wrong with its continued allowing of safe havens and ISI support for the taliban therefore the post makes you look like a twat. Protip: You have to think before you troll, A better idea for you would have been to say how attacking Pakistan could have dragged the Indians into the conflict therefore increasing the chance of a nuclear exchange - then you would have created a 'India vs Pakistan' high-jacking of the thread. That is all.

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at September 26, 2008 03:18 AM

cheung shun sang - Screw China, and keep your pseudo-english rambling, mindless "poetry" to yourself.

Posted by: Skyler at September 26, 2008 02:28 AM

Let's NOT sell this weapon to anyone outside the USA. I don't like being in cover, and then to be on the receiving end of something like this.

Posted by: Mitchka at September 26, 2008 01:45 AM

I'm more interested in things like:

Are the batteries standard alkaline, or proprietary rechargeable? Home many spares would I be required to carry and how much do they weigh? What are the silly requirements for battery replacement (3 bars out of five? 2 bars?). How does the ammunition stand-up to repeated chambering and re-chambering during weapons turnover?

I guess what I'm getting at is this... I could probably suck it up with most any weapon, but when equipment starts getting complicated, so do the procedures.

And that is the type of stuff that I'd really have to tough-out every day.

Posted by: gsak at September 25, 2008 11:45 PM

Are you guys kidding? Shrapnel can penetrate kevlar a lot easier than bullets. It travels at an extremely high velocity

Posted by: stempel at September 25, 2008 11:29 PM

Are you guys kidding? Shrapnel can penetrate kevlar a lot easier than bullets. It travels at an extremely high velocity

Posted by: stempel at September 25, 2008 11:28 PM

How are some of these ridiculously stupid comments allowed on here?

"So now we can blast away at towns that we've "liberated" and kill lots of civilians whom we never saw..."

Are you serious? Why are you even on this forum? All that comment really deserves is a blunt STFU.

and

"...the shrapnel from it won't be enough to penetrate a Kevlar vest..."

And this guy must be an expert on the subject. I guess you know more than everyone else to even suppose that it may work. You know everything.

Posted by: Skyler at September 25, 2008 10:04 PM

Oh, the collateral damage, on a per-round basis, won't be so bad, with this thing...
It'll be a lot less than you'd get from a 40mm Airburst round (which would be a lot easier to design).
Of course, that means that the shrapnel from it won't be enough to penetrate a Kevlar vest, but so long as the enemy co-operates by not actually trying to defend against it, it should be of marginal utility, at least...

Posted by: William A. Peterson at September 25, 2008 09:18 PM

Sounds brilliant. So now we can blast away at towns that we've "liberated" and kill lots of civilians whom we never saw (hiding as they were behind those walls we're magically behind or around or some such).

Posted by: sglover at September 25, 2008 08:57 PM

(quoting the comics)

DILBERT: The project was moving along well until Management changed our coding language and methodology.

DILBERT: Now our timeline is represented by this M.C. Escher print of an endless stairway.

DILBERT: This deep-sea submarine is looking for out morale.

POINTY-HAIRED BOSS: Would this be a bad time to add a few features?

Posted by: gsak at September 25, 2008 05:40 PM

When is the army going to give every soldier one of those laser pistols like they had in the original battlestar galactica series? Now that would be cool! ;-)

Posted by: jeff at September 25, 2008 05:37 PM

The impressive part of this weapon is the integral time machine. The one dragging us all the way back to when this was news.

The XM25 that the Army is 'ready to test shoot' had six prototypes delivered back in 2005, and they went through limited field and combat testing back in 2005 as well.

The XM25 shares its gauge and fusing abilities with the brilliant XM307. The XM307 that just got canceled, so we could buy more Ma Deuces that weigh seventy pounds more. The airburst fusing capabilities weren't as reliable as they wanted, and the reduction in rate of fire led the Army to prefer the M2s already in service. The XM25 seems destined for cancellation at the hands of the SAW, in a virtual repeat of big brother's swan song.

Too bad, since it's a good idea.

Posted by: AhzeeDahak at September 25, 2008 05:13 PM

FISHERMAN27,
No it goes over the hill or through a bunker 'slit'(?). Supposedly there is a way to set the detonation delay after the laser range finder's range has been set.

Posted by: Foreign.Boy at September 25, 2008 04:10 PM

How does it go through a hill? Or into a bunker I don't get that part? Can u explain please?
Sounds wicked!

Posted by: FISHERMAN27 at September 25, 2008 03:54 PM

I know nothing about ammo and hand held weapons but it sounds very cool - unless your on the receiving end of it! One other thing, that camo that guy and his gun have got is freakin awesome!

Great post Christian! (betya didnt expect that from me lol) Keep up the great work!

Posted by: Jimbo Jones at September 25, 2008 03:40 PM

Read Ahead: Duck! It Won't Do You Any Good...

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