My comment to those who feel the military should not have bases near populated areas: How many people were killed in San Diego as a result of the Sept 1978 mid-air collision of the PSA airliner and the Cessna 172? How many residences were damaged or destroyed? Now, how many civilians have been killed as a result of military aircraft accidents from NAS North Island or MCAS (formerly NAS) Miramar? Any aircraft flying over a populated area can cause damage or loss of life. It is sad, but it is reality. Homes are built in flight paths, and people buy them. The risks are there, and people know that.

For those who feel the pilot should have "gone down with his plane," you people make me very sad. You didn't even know the reasons for the plane going down, and you were making comments of this nature. As well, to state that it would have been better that the pilot died, too? Seriously, what is wrong with you? Do you think his family and friends feel that way? Or do you think they are just relieved that he was able to make it out of a crippled and uncontrollable aircraft? This man made a choice based off of years of training (don’t forget, he flew other military aircraft before he started training in the F/A-18). He made a decision as a person, too. There is an unwritten rule among military pilots (and commercial pilots), that they will do their absolute best to never allow their aircraft to crash into a populated area. Sometimes, though, the aircraft doesn't cooperate. This man did his best, and for those who feel otherwise, I question if you understand what it means to raise your right hand, and have sworn to defend this country, and those in it, with your life? He did. In that, he should be given the honor of people not questioning his judgment.

To the father who lost his family, and all who knew and loved those lost, I feel horrible for the pain you are enduring. Just as the pilot feels the same way for you all. The father is a remarkable person, and showed forgiveness and understanding of this pilot, and all that our military sacrifices. Maybe those of you with negative comments about the military and this pilot, you should think about following the father's lead.

Posted by: PSHJ at December 24, 2008 03:28 PM

Perhaps a set of cables and quick filling helium
ballons are the answer to a jet losing both
engines. Seems like fuel starvation or flying
past a "no return point" caused this disaster.
Pilot did what he could but lets investigate the
Captain and those who sent him off the Nimitz...
as usual the facts of the disaster are not
released to the Public but sweept under the rug
to protect a high ranking Naval Officer. The Press
was not aware of the Nimitz as it plowed west from
San Diego. They ususally know approximately where
the ship is located and if it poses a threat to the USA.

Posted by: j.e.rogan at December 14, 2008 12:17 AM

As all the others have said, the pilot of the F/A-18 had made the correct decision for the situation presented to him. Cause if my sources are correct any pilot that is trained in any U.S. Military service is tought that they do not eject unless it is absolutly needed, especially if it is over a populated area. Cause as stated before the services invest a ton of money into the training of our pilots, why should we lose one when we ont need too...I personally want to tell him that he should have nothing to worry about, you did the right thing! And a pilot is trained to andle almost every situation presented to them in some way or another, plus ejection is considered a last resort.

Signed, afairman

P.S.- God Bless America and Our TROOPS...
Lets keep up the good work, hooah!

Posted by: afairman at December 12, 2008 09:56 PM

This was a tragic accident. To all of you that are all about hating on the military right now its to bad that all of our men and women that are in the military give you guys the freedom to run your mouth like you do. Calling him a coward by all means why dont you guys join the military since you would make "better" choices!

Posted by: MD at December 11, 2008 05:26 AM

This accident saddens me for two reasons.

1.) Three people were killed. That is tragic to the families of those who did and you can't help but feel for them.

2.) Folk who are not in the military, are not pilots (either military or civilian) criticize the Hornet's pilot and the military in general. Comments like this one from another site:

"This is ridiculous! Bailing out of that plane should NOT have been an option for that pilot. Protocol demands that he should've done everything in his power to touch down/crash land in a non-populated area using every amount of control that was left to him. 3 homes destroyed, and a Grandma and kids slain by this kind of incompetence is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE and measures should now be taken to prevent this from happening again. I can't tell you how bad I feel for those families who lost loved ones because of whatever happened. And does it matter if it was a mechanical failure or pilot incompetence? NO! There's plenty of desert available for the flyboys to do their thing. Yes, they're doing their job. Yes it's important. But, no, we should not become victims of a disaster like this if it could've been avoided. Whatever happened to the Captain going down with the ship? That applies to more than boats. Utterly appalling! Say a prayer for the victims and cut the jokes."

People, like the one I just quoted, are laymen to the field of aviation: particular military aviation. Such people make non-sensical suppositions as to what the pilot should have done or point out what he “failed” to do. "The pilot should have stayed with the plane honorably instead of bailing out". "He could have ditch in the ocean instead of flying back to Miramar". I've even read folks accusing him of being a coward for ejecting. Needless to say, such people have no right to say that. They are not remotely qualified to make such suppositions and to question the decision of the pilot when the people weren't up there in that seat having to make the decision. Perhaps these folks should check their dislike for the military at the door and await the facts to come to light in the coming days before making uneducated and gross speculations.

Adding further Byron's post, planes like the F-18 use a computerized flight control system know as fly-by-wire. Pilot control inputs are converted into electrical signals that the flight computer then manipulates the various control surfaces. This system allows the inherently unstable fighter planes of today to be controllable. Almost all fighter planes worldwide have fly-by-wire, even many of our wide-body airliners.

In the case of the crash, it is being report the Hornet completely lost power. This results in the flight computer shutting down as there is no electricity to power it. Now with no control and no thrust to keep the plane aloft it will fly a ballistic trajectory to the ground. So to those who say he should have stayed with the plane....what would that have accomplished? Staying in a plane that is dead stick would have been futile. Ejection was the only option left.

I don't think that having military aircraft flying over our cities is any less safe than the commercial or general aviation operations that share the skies with them. The military has just as much of a right to operate freely in our airspace as we do. In fact just three days ago I was fortunate to see an Air Force F-16 landing at my town's airport. The thought of the plane somehow crashing never came to mind at all. Aviation accidents will always happen; it is a sad fact we pilots are well aware of, despite that we take steps to mitigate the risks to those on the ground, to the flight, and to ourselves. From my perspective the Hornet pilot did everything he could to reduce the risk in order to get his plane safely on the ground...sadly the plane gave out miles short of safety.

Posted by: Ed at December 10, 2008 08:23 PM

i was amazed at what a non-condemning attitude the father of the family that was killed had after this crash

Posted by: fan boy at December 10, 2008 03:54 PM

Good Afternoon Folks,

I would like to respond to Krieger's remarks regarding MCAS Miramar. He is correct, the military has used this land since at least 1913 and Miramar has been an air station since the early days WW II. In fact land that is now U.C.S.D. and most of the community of Santee was once Marine Bases. As a kid in 40's and 50's, my grandparents came to San Diego in 1913, my grandfather was with D Co. 22nd. Infantry, Miramar was considered to be out in the sticks. None of the residences who now live in the operational flight path of Miramar predates the Marines on this site. In short when they bought their homes they KNEW that the F-18's were over head.

The argument has long been in this city for the military to leave Miramar and use that land for a commercial airport and the military has staunchly resisted. Miramar is the home of the 3ed, Marine Air Wing and is a critical member of the sea, land, air Marine team. The many service have unlimited access to the cosmopolitan and cultural assets of the area and are valued members of the community. There is no need to change the location of the base or it operations. The Navy/Marines have take every safety measure to put fight paths over canyon lands or highways to minimize their impact on civilians. The home owners who knew the risks when they purchased their homes are simply being asked to share some of the risks of defending their country. If this is to much of a price, THEY can move.

To the notion that the pilot should road the plane down, well that just plain dumb. When the pilot ejected from his aircraft he no had any control of that plane, the F-18 with out power becomes a brick as they say in the trade and only follows the law of gravity. The pilot by saving himself not only protected the tax payers considerable investment in his training, he became a valued resource to his Squadron and has lessons to pass on to his fellow pilots.

The risk of bringing in that aircraft down the way is was done, was made by the pilots chain of command not the guy in the cockpit and if there is any blame, and so far I don't see any, the majority of it should go to the senior officers who decided on this option out of the several that were available to them.

Defending America is a dangerous business. Those in the military deal with it everyday but sometime the danger must be shared. Freedom is not free.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at December 10, 2008 03:22 PM

Justareader, you can't place the blame fully on the shoulders of the military. MCAS Miramar has been there longer than any of those house or even the freeway. The buyers of those homes and the builders knew the risk of living near a military air base and under a military flight path. Why does the military have bases near major cities I can only guess. One would be because they have been there longer than expanding residential areas, two the location is an ideal place, three money, it does cost alot of money to relocate 10,000 Marines, their family, gear and planes to a remote base in the mountains or Sierra Nevada and its not practical. The military has been in San Diego long before San Diego transformed into the major Southern California city it is today, why should the military relocate? Because of one accident and because homeowners don't like the sounds of jets landing and taking off? Homeowners should not buy homes near air bases if sound is one of their main concerns and they find it un safe.

Posted by: krieger at December 10, 2008 12:33 AM

They shouldn't have been flying there, on top of civilians.
Have you seen any army guys training and shooting in central park?
Then why is the Air Force and the higher-ups pushing and defending shows of force?
It's was just a matter of time before an 'accident' happened.
If I play with a knife in front of your daughter and it falls in her head and kills her, am I murderer?
If I play with Uncle Sam's warmachines flying above cities full of civilians and after several walks it falls on the head of a child and kill her, why is that different?
You want to play, go outside, not on my garden please, USA is a pretty big country, there are vast lands without population in the deserts, go train there, it's as easy as that, ah, and don't come to the cities to scare the civilians showing how powerfull you are flying beetween buildings. This isn't a fascist country.. yet.

Posted by: Justareader at December 9, 2008 10:06 PM

Bob, I will say this once more the Marine Corps along with the United States Navy is the nation's Quick Reaction Force. That is why we use MEUs and MEBs for, quick, strategic and devastating military action. I cannot make my point any more simple. The Marine Corps is basically the nation's shock troops. It is not that hard to figure out. What debacle? Desert Storm was a resounding victory. The Marine Corps is not a support based service they are combat troops. Their objective is to defeat the enemy quickly and effectively, and for the past 233 years they seem to a pretty good job at that. You call the Corps ineffective after both engines on a Hornet go out and four people die in a ACCIDENT. If you want to call that the Corps' fault maybe you should tell the government to increase the Corps' funding seeing as they are the lowest funded of all the services including the Coast Guard. Did you really just call Khe Sanh fake? If so, that only shows the true nature and depth or your ignorance. Tell me have you ever heard of the Tet Offensive? Did you take American History at all or have you read a military history ever in life? Just be honest.

Posted by: krieger at December 9, 2008 09:21 PM

This was a tragic accident. It wasn't a "murder." ---- Miramar was there decades before these houses were built. --- The pilot wasn't burning fuel at low altitudes; both his engines died on him. The plane went down like a rock. --- There is no honor in riding that rock down. It sounds like the pilot did the honorable thing and ejected at the last minute. There is a good chance he has a family and children. Making his children fatherless is not honorable. -- I suggest you take some flying lessons before you make such bold comments. --- This was a sad day in San Diego. Let's remember that. I am sure the pilot feels terrible just like the engineer on a train feels when someone jumps in front of the train. Don't jump to a conclusion before you know all the facts. He and or his family and friends may very well be reading what we all wrote.

Posted by: Todd at December 9, 2008 07:45 PM

For those that are suggesting the pilot go down with the plane, please step back and take a moment and let common sense sink in. If a pilot goes down with the plane, there would be currently 4 people dead instead of 3. Is that really the best option, to not only destroy a family, but also increase the number of casualties and destroy a pilot worth millions of dollars to train? Yeah sure honor is important, but in America we have common sense and realize nothing matters if you're already dead.

Posted by: FoxThree at December 9, 2008 04:01 PM

Bob,

Lighten up, kid..... take a deep breath and start over.

Thanks

Posted by: Ontos at December 9, 2008 02:34 PM

Apart from bob's comments and political inter-services wars, isn't anyone going to apologize? be sorry for the completely innocent girl and mother who were murder?
Isn't anyone going to comment as wethever there should be military warplanes burning fuel at low altitude in civilian populations?
Aren't they supposed to be protecting the coast, the frontier and the country against enemy nations?
Can't they build airbases far away from the cities and have their sahre of fun & training far away at sea or in the mountains?
How much is enough for you?
"Respect" for the military is all-time low, and don't even bother asking about the respect for USA abroad...
They should be making a statue of the innocent family and a stronger and more clear law & regulation explaining why the hell are the military (and their military bases and interventions-aka-wars) sinking family's blood and money and sinking the country into debt inside and hate abroad.
Instead of three branches (marines, navy and af) I propose;
1º Layer of defense (a literaly speaking defense department, homeland defense, trained and ready to repeal any imaginable invasion), strictly forbidden by law to ever leave USA soil (continental soil to make even more clear) (all the marines and half the air force).
2º The navy and air patrols near the coast and into the sea to check incoming traffic, allowed to go farther, 2.000 or 3.000 km away, not more (that would be the navy and the other halt of the air force) Special laws could apply to submarines to ambush incoming enemy forces, the plan is not to get in other countries internal affairs.

This way, you could spare 700 or 800 military bases abroad, hundred thousand marines, an unimaginable amount of billions of dollars and still mantain the biggest, strongest and most tech-advanced army in the world, an army to be proud of, and to be safe thinking it's there and to be confortable kwnowing it would be a hell of a fight to try to 'invade' the USA and take away your liberties, freedoms and rights. So you could start taking care of your own lives and your own contry, thinking in your own prosperity and improving science and technology and not about 'securing' oil and bringing world war three just a bit more closer and making enemies of half the planet population.
Oh, you could also close the dictionary, you know, this unending list of intelligence agencies, you could close them all, give the resources to either the army for sea and air control of the country's frontiers or to the police only by legal judge authorization.
Just a suggestion...

Posted by: Justareader at December 9, 2008 02:06 PM

As a San Diegan since 1965 this is one of the worst wrecks but nothing like the mid air over a suburb, North Park in Sept. 1978 with 144 dead as a PSA airliner collided with a private plane. During the late 60s and early 70s Miramar was a Navy base with F4s practicing touch and go east and west over old US395. I do not recall any crashes like this latest disaster.

Posted by: Michael at December 9, 2008 01:18 PM

I think I agree with tucanofulano - if you're over a populated area, you display your honor and ride the bird down, even if you're in a flat spin, so that you have every chance to protect the ones you're supposed to be serving.

Posted by: bespoke at December 9, 2008 12:15 PM

I like how the Marines keep saying that they won't buy any new F-18s because they are waiting for the JSF.

Did anyone watch that PBS show about the USS Nimitz? They had a Marine Hornet squadron that had the worst readiness rate on the ship. They showed the planes literally leaking oil all over the deck. The CAG was not very happy about this squadron to say the least.

Wonder how much longer the Marine Hornets can last while they wait for the JSF......

Posted by: jack at December 8, 2008 10:46 PM

Good Evening Folks,

This crash happened about three miles from where I live. It's not the first nor do I suspect think the last crash of a military aircraft from Miramar into a residential neighborhood. Those who live near air bases should understand this.

According to people on the ground who claimed to have witnessed the accident there was a loud pop, puff of smoke, the plane went almost 90 deg. vertical, the pilot ejected in nearly a horizontal position. The parachute landed in some trees and the ejection seat landed in a back yard about 200 meters away, missing a woman in the yard by appox. 10 meters. This information is unofficial and I'm sure will be revised as the investigation of the accident goes on.

The remarkable thing is that with the noticeably increased operational tempo of the last few years at Miramar is that there have not been more of these accidents. Most occur at sea or in the about 30 sq, mile buffer zone on the east side of the runway where aircraft make their landing approaches.

As of 1917 Hr's. this evening there are three people dead and one still unaccounted for, all in a single home. The pilot seems to be ok he was last seen by people of the neighborhood walking around talking on his mobile phone.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Posted by: Byron Skinner at December 8, 2008 10:33 PM

Better a noble death riding the ship to earth doing all possible to steer toward open ground
than to punch out, letting whomever on the ground depend on dumb luck, and wind up a suicide in remorse.

Posted by: tucanofulano at December 8, 2008 10:22 PM

typical marine bs response... name calling, bullying, no substance... you need to grow up... much like khe sanh, fallujah was a battle conjured up by the marine corps to justify their existence and nothing more.. if it weren't for gunship support you would have totally failed... the debacle at desert one was entirely the fault of the marine corps, who claimed, falsely and arrogantly, that they were night mission desert capable, and that their birds were combat ready, when nothing was further from the truth.. you're total non team players...

but you intentionally dodged the question as to why the marine corps even exists today, when other service branches are more than capable of doing their supposed mission..?

Posted by: bob at December 8, 2008 10:03 PM

Irrelevant comments from "bob" aside, I would like to know more about this story, but I guess its just too early yet. How long is it typically before information about what went wrong is released?

Posted by: Hibby at December 8, 2008 09:49 PM

Bob I'm gonna go ahead and say that 20 year combat vet deal is all bullsh**t. Secondly, what? Have you been living under a rock for the past 20 years you ignorant, bisexual, cock loving, degenerate a**hole? Do you remember Desert Storm, the opening hours of OEF and OIF, the fall of Baghdad, or Fallujah? A prime example of the superiority of the United States Marine Corps just happens to be the Battle of Shewan. Look it up. The USMC and USN are the tip of the spear for the United States. They are the nation's Quick Reaction Force to global crises that call for quick, strategic and devastating military action. Have you heard of a MEU or MEB? Wake the hell up.

Posted by: krieger at December 8, 2008 09:06 PM

one should ask, in 2008, why the marine corps even exists, and more so, why it is flying jets..? there is nothing that the marine corps does nowadays that can not be done by the army, air force, or navy bureau, period. all marines ever do is rape women, kill illegally, and fly jets into ski areas in italy and kill 19 people... it's a completely talentless and useless organization.. 20 year combat vet.

Posted by: bob at December 8, 2008 08:39 PM

The nytimes is reporting two dead on the ground.

Posted by: me at December 8, 2008 07:51 PM